Cross breeding different dragon species - critique these proposed rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cross breeding different dragon species - critique these proposed rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ksbsnowowl
12-07-05, 03:10 AM Just to note at the start – I play 3.0, and feel free to skip down to the crunch, below the asterisks.

I just today picked up the adventure The Standing Stone, and I previously had owned The Bastion of Broken Souls and Beyond the Veil (by Penumbra Press). I like how the history of Ashardalon is incorporated into The Standing Stone, and given the over-arching nature of his historical presence, I thought it would be good to incorporate his history into one of the middle adventures I’m melding into the campaign, Beyond the Veil. I saw another poster mention running these three adventures in the same campaign, and using the dragon ghost from Beyond the Veil in place of Ashardalon, but I have something a little closer to the original story-lines in mind.

The thing is, the Dragon Ghost (Storamere) in Beyond the Veil (that I’m going to plant as Ashardalon’s son) is a Black Dragon (while Ashardalon is a Red). For those unfamiliar with Beyond the Veil, the PC’s track Storamere to a palace on the Ethereal Plane that is composed of thick, viscous acid. I suppose I could change it to walls of thick magma, but the fiery landscape is too overdone in my mind. And that would add additional challenges in the form of heat dangers, which the PC’s don’t need, as the culmination of the adventure already places 9th level PC’s against a CR 12 Dragon Ghost in a hostile setting where he bull rushes foes, knocking them into the semi-liquid walls (which deal 1d6 acid damage at a touch, and after a bull rush they must make a DC 20 Ref save or fall into the walls, which deal 10d6 acid damage per round…)

************

I like the fortress’s ambiance, so I was trying to figure how to make these adventures fit, when I realized “Hey, dragons are highly magical creatures that can breed with just about everything… why couldn’t Ashardalon have bred with a Black Dragon, creating Storamere, a half-red, half-black dragon?”

Now, this wouldn’t be well represented by adding the Half-Dragon template onto the Storamere presented in the book. So what I’m doing is coming up with some basic guidelines for creating “mixed” dragon types. At first I was thinking of just taking the lesser of the two dragon species and making half it’s breath weapon do the other appropriate type of damage and upping the breath weapon damage die by one if the two original damage dice were more than one die different, giving it the additional energy immunities appropriate to its other parent, and giving it the special abilities of the other parent species at the appropriate age categories. I would then increase its CR by +1.

But then I thought it would be better represented by averaging the stats, etc; so here’s what I’ve got so far:

Choose your dragon’s age category and compare the stats of the two dragon types at that age category.

Size: Average the size of the two dragons, rounding up.

Hit Dice: Average the Hit Dice of the two dragons, rounding down.

Ability Scores: Average the scores for each ability, rounding up where needed.

Natural Armor: Average the natural armor scores of the two dragons, rounding down.

Breath Weapon: Take the average of the two damage dice, and round down (For example, a black dragon does xd4 damage, while a read dragon does xd10. The new dragon would have a breath weapon that does xd6 damage).

If both base dragons had a line breath weapon, so does the progeny. If one had a line, while the other had a cone breath weapon, the resulting dragon has a cone breath weapon.

The new breath weapon deals one-half of each type of energy. For example, an adult half-black, half-red dragon has a cone-shaped breath weapon that deals 6d6 fire damage and 6d6 acid damage. (Alternatively, the dragon could be given multiple types of breath weapon, but I want to keep the CR down, and this way Protection from Elements could be applied twice and be doubly effective.)

Subtype / Immunities: The dragon gains the subtypes and immunities of both parent dragons.

Frightful Presence DC: Average the two Frightful Presence DC’s, if any, and round down.

Spell Resistance: Average the two SR values, if any, and round down.

Movement: Average the speeds and maneuverability ratings, rounding down.

Special Abilities: The resulting dragon gains all special abilities of both parents, at the same age categories indicated for the parent dragons.

Spells / Caster Level: The resulting dragon gains spells and a caster levels at the slower of the two rates.

Challenge Rating: The Dragon’s challenge rating is equal to an average of the two parents’ challenge ratings, rounded up.

So, for a sample dragon I present Storamere, who I will throttle back to a Young Adult, in order to keep the CR down. This is prior to the addition of the Ghost template.

Storamere, Young Adult Red-Black Dragon:

Size: Huge

Hit Dice: 20d12

Ability Scores: Str- 25, Dex- 10, Con- 19, Int- 13, Wis- 14, Cha- 13

Natural Armor: +16 (24 total AC)

Breath Weapon: 5d6 fire + 5d6 acid, 50 ft. cone

Subtype / Immunities: Subtypes (water, fire). Immune to acid and fire; double damage from cold.

Frightful Presence DC: 20

Spell Resistance: 18

Movement: 50 ft, fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 30 ft.

Special Abilities: Acid Immunity, Water Breathing, Darkness, Fire Subtype, Locate Object, DR 5/+1

Spells / Caster Level: 1st

Challenge Rating: 10

Does that seem right at a CR 10?

Here is what it would have looked like with the ‘simpler’ method, sticking with Storamere’s original Adult age category:

Size: Large

Hit Dice: 19d12

Ability Scores: Str- 23, Dex- 10, Con- 19, Int- 12, Wis- 13, Cha-12

Natural Armor: +18 (27 total AC)

Breath Weapon: 6d6 fire + 6d6 acid, 40 ft. cone

Subtype / Immunities: Subtypes (water, fire). Immune to acid and fire; double damage from cold.

Frightful Presence DC: 20

Spell Resistance: 18

Movement: 50 ft, fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 30 ft.

Special Abilities: Acid Immunity, Water Breathing, Darkness, Fire Subtype, Locate Object, DR 5/+1

Spells / Caster Level: 1st

Challenge Rating: 11

Now, this way grants a higher CR (in this instance, at least) and fewer benefits. What would be the best way to balance this?
OamuTheMonk
12-07-05, 03:14 AM I didn't read the bulk of the post. However, I do know that it is acceptable to use the Half-Dragon Template on a Dragon of a Different color--as I understand it, it creates a stronger hybrid beast. It may be simpler or more complex than your proposal.
ksbsnowowl
12-07-05, 03:19 AM Yes, I had considered that, but it results in weird things, like the black half-red dragon only getting to use the fire breath weapon once per day. Or heck, apply it the other way, a Red half-black dragon. Now the red dragon, the most powerful of the chromatics, gets a boost to his ability scores for breeding with a lesser species?

I'd thought of these quirks, which is why I have made this proposal.
MessiahOmega
12-07-05, 03:28 AM your idea is has merit, and i love the idea of a dragon blasting creatures with bi-damage breath weapons.

however; i think that, given that there is only 10 true dragon types (core), these hybrid would aready stalk the earth, and more than likely, have names. and so i present (fanfare) "names for red dragons that have 'done it' with other dragons that are a different colour. other than red."

Red crossed with:
black Blackfire Dragon
white Frostburn Dragon
Green Woodscorch dragon
Blue Purple desert dragon
Silver Cloud Scorcher Dragon
Gold Firestorm dragon

eh. im bored now.
OamuTheMonk
12-07-05, 03:30 AM a Red half-black dragon. Now the red dragon, the most powerful of the chromatics, gets a boost to his ability scores for breeding with a lesser species?

That's actually my favorite thing about it. Besides, Dragons (Wyrms) are the same species. No different genetically than a Chihuahua and a Rottweiler.

Kind of a tangent there. Don't let me derail your thread.
RavinRay
12-07-05, 05:09 AM That's actually my favorite thing about it. Besides, Dragons (Wyrms) are the same species. No different genetically than a Chihuahua and a Rottweiler.
Depends on the genetics of your world. In mine dragons are sister species, much like dogs and wolves and coyotes.

I've my own hybrid dragon template at an older thread, radically different from this one.
ksbsnowowl
12-07-05, 09:14 AM Depends on the genetics of your world. In mine dragons are sister species, much like dogs and wolves and coyotes.
(Psst!....take it from the biologist - Wolves and dogs are genetically the same species. "Dogs" are just given a different name because they have been domesticated, and in most cases have a much different temperment - yeah, I thought it was stupid too. But do remember that binomial nomenclature was created and applied to the common fauna long before the genetic screening technology we have these days. AFAIK, coyotes actually are a different species genetically.)

I think for my purposes, we'll say that all dragons fall into Family Draconis, with all the chromatic dragons falling into the same Genus, Chromis. Thus, each dragon type would be its own species within that genus. It is not their biology that allows them to crossbreed (and have fertile offspring), but rather their highly-magical nature.

And by no means am I saying this crossbreeding should be a common thing. I'm talking but one or possibly two mixed dragons in the entire world at any one time.

The interesting thing is going to be the half-dragon children of Storamere within the adventure....I'll have to modify the Half-dragon template, probably just by adding the second energy immunity, and making the breath weapon deal half-and-half damage, as above.

And Oamu, no need to worry about derailing the thread. Discussions like these are fun.

Any comments on the mechanical viability of one of the above options? I'm just concerned about getting the CR at least close to right.... this adventure is challenging even with the standard black dragon, I don't want to overdo it. One is more work than the other, but this is such a rare occurance, I'll probably only do it this once and be done with it.
bgt
12-07-05, 10:42 AM I've been doing something like this in my games for a while now, and it works out quite nicely.
And by no means am I saying this crossbreeding should be a common thing. I'm talking but one or possibly two mixed dragons in the entire world at any one time.
I have quite a few more than one or two in my world, but vast majority are between are between good dragons. The good dragons are more likely to raise and protect the mixed young. Chromatic/metallic mixes are pretty much limited to silver and white dragons (MM says silvers steal eggs from whites and raise them to be good), and crosses between chromatics are usually killed by their nestmates.
Jesper
12-07-05, 01:29 PM How would this work with a red white dragon immunity wise?
ksbsnowowl
12-07-05, 07:43 PM How would this work with a red white dragon immunity wise?Aside from the "roleplay" reasons against it, a red/white would work like all the others. They would gain the fire and cold subtypes, and be immune to both. Really, it just makes them like the other dragon species, which have no vulnerabilities either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ksbsnowowl 12-07-05, 03:10 AM	Just to note at the start – I play 3.0, and feel free to skip down to the crunch, below the asterisks. I just today picked up the adventure The Standing Stone, and I previously had owned The Bastion of Broken Souls and Beyond the Veil (by Penumbra Press). I like how the history of Ashardalon is incorporated into The Standing Stone, and given the over-arching nature of his historical presence, I thought it would be good to incorporate his history into one of the middle adventures I’m melding into the campaign, Beyond the Veil. I saw another poster mention running these three adventures in the same campaign, and using the dragon ghost from Beyond the Veil in place of Ashardalon, but I have something a little closer to the original story-lines in mind. The thing is, the Dragon Ghost (Storamere) in Beyond the Veil (that I’m going to plant as Ashardalon’s son) is a Black Dragon (while Ashardalon is a Red). For those unfamiliar with Beyond the Veil, the PC’s track Storamere to a palace on the Ethereal Plane that is composed of thick, viscous acid. I suppose I could change it to walls of thick magma, but the fiery landscape is too overdone in my mind. And that would add additional challenges in the form of heat dangers, which the PC’s don’t need, as the culmination of the adventure already places 9th level PC’s against a CR 12 Dragon Ghost in a hostile setting where he bull rushes foes, knocking them into the semi-liquid walls (which deal 1d6 acid damage at a touch, and after a bull rush they must make a DC 20 Ref save or fall into the walls, which deal 10d6 acid damage per round…) ************ I like the fortress’s ambiance, so I was trying to figure how to make these adventures fit, when I realized “Hey, dragons are highly magical creatures that can breed with just about everything… why couldn’t Ashardalon have bred with a Black Dragon, creating Storamere, a half-red, half-black dragon?” Now, this wouldn’t be well represented by adding the Half-Dragon template onto the Storamere presented in the book. So what I’m doing is coming up with some basic guidelines for creating “mixed” dragon types. At first I was thinking of just taking the lesser of the two dragon species and making half it’s breath weapon do the other appropriate type of damage and upping the breath weapon damage die by one if the two original damage dice were more than one die different, giving it the additional energy immunities appropriate to its other parent, and giving it the special abilities of the other parent species at the appropriate age categories. I would then increase its CR by +1. But then I thought it would be better represented by averaging the stats, etc; so here’s what I’ve got so far: Choose your dragon’s age category and compare the stats of the two dragon types at that age category. Size: Average the size of the two dragons, rounding up. Hit Dice: Average the Hit Dice of the two dragons, rounding down. Ability Scores: Average the scores for each ability, rounding up where needed. Natural Armor: Average the natural armor scores of the two dragons, rounding down. Breath Weapon: Take the average of the two damage dice, and round down (For example, a black dragon does xd4 damage, while a read dragon does xd10. The new dragon would have a breath weapon that does xd6 damage). If both base dragons had a line breath weapon, so does the progeny. If one had a line, while the other had a cone breath weapon, the resulting dragon has a cone breath weapon. The new breath weapon deals one-half of each type of energy. For example, an adult half-black, half-red dragon has a cone-shaped breath weapon that deals 6d6 fire damage and 6d6 acid damage. (Alternatively, the dragon could be given multiple types of breath weapon, but I want to keep the CR down, and this way Protection from Elements could be applied twice and be doubly effective.) Subtype / Immunities: The dragon gains the subtypes and immunities of both parent dragons. Frightful Presence DC: Average the two Frightful Presence DC’s, if any, and round down. Spell Resistance: Average the two SR values, if any, and round down. Movement: Average the speeds and maneuverability ratings, rounding down. Special Abilities: The resulting dragon gains all special abilities of both parents, at the same age categories indicated for the parent dragons. Spells / Caster Level: The resulting dragon gains spells and a caster levels at the slower of the two rates. Challenge Rating: The Dragon’s challenge rating is equal to an average of the two parents’ challenge ratings, rounded up. So, for a sample dragon I present Storamere, who I will throttle back to a Young Adult, in order to keep the CR down. This is prior to the addition of the Ghost template. Storamere, Young Adult Red-Black Dragon: Size: Huge Hit Dice: 20d12 Ability Scores: Str- 25, Dex- 10, Con- 19, Int- 13, Wis- 14, Cha- 13 Natural Armor: +16 (24 total AC) Breath Weapon: 5d6 fire + 5d6 acid, 50 ft. cone Subtype / Immunities: Subtypes (water, fire). Immune to acid and fire; double damage from cold. Frightful Presence DC: 20 Spell Resistance: 18 Movement: 50 ft, fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 30 ft. Special Abilities: Acid Immunity, Water Breathing, Darkness, Fire Subtype, Locate Object, DR 5/+1 Spells / Caster Level: 1st Challenge Rating: 10 Does that seem right at a CR 10? Here is what it would have looked like with the ‘simpler’ method, sticking with Storamere’s original Adult age category: Size: Large Hit Dice: 19d12 Ability Scores: Str- 23, Dex- 10, Con- 19, Int- 12, Wis- 13, Cha-12 Natural Armor: +18 (27 total AC) Breath Weapon: 6d6 fire + 6d6 acid, 40 ft. cone Subtype / Immunities: Subtypes (water, fire). Immune to acid and fire; double damage from cold. Frightful Presence DC: 20 Spell Resistance: 18 Movement: 50 ft, fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 30 ft. Special Abilities: Acid Immunity, Water Breathing, Darkness, Fire Subtype, Locate Object, DR 5/+1 Spells / Caster Level: 1st Challenge Rating: 11 Now, this way grants a higher CR (in this instance, at least) and fewer benefits. What would be the best way to balance this?
OamuTheMonk 12-07-05, 03:14 AM	I didn't read the bulk of the post. However, I do know that it is acceptable to use the Half-Dragon Template on a Dragon of a Different color--as I understand it, it creates a stronger hybrid beast. It may be simpler or more complex than your proposal.
ksbsnowowl 12-07-05, 03:19 AM	Yes, I had considered that, but it results in weird things, like the black half-red dragon only getting to use the fire breath weapon once per day. Or heck, apply it the other way, a Red half-black dragon. Now the red dragon, the most powerful of the chromatics, gets a boost to his ability scores for breeding with a lesser species? I'd thought of these quirks, which is why I have made this proposal.
MessiahOmega 12-07-05, 03:28 AM	your idea is has merit, and i love the idea of a dragon blasting creatures with bi-damage breath weapons. however; i think that, given that there is only 10 true dragon types (core), these hybrid would aready stalk the earth, and more than likely, have names. and so i present (fanfare) "names for red dragons that have 'done it' with other dragons that are a different colour. other than red." Red crossed with: black Blackfire Dragon white Frostburn Dragon Green Woodscorch dragon Blue Purple desert dragon Silver Cloud Scorcher Dragon Gold Firestorm dragon eh. im bored now.
OamuTheMonk 12-07-05, 03:30 AM	a Red half-black dragon. Now the red dragon, the most powerful of the chromatics, gets a boost to his ability scores for breeding with a lesser species? That's actually my favorite thing about it. Besides, Dragons (Wyrms) are the same species. No different genetically than a Chihuahua and a Rottweiler. Kind of a tangent there. Don't let me derail your thread.
RavinRay 12-07-05, 05:09 AM	That's actually my favorite thing about it. Besides, Dragons (Wyrms) are the same species. No different genetically than a Chihuahua and a Rottweiler. Depends on the genetics of your world. In mine dragons are sister species, much like dogs and wolves and coyotes. I've my own hybrid dragon template at an older thread, radically different from this one.
ksbsnowowl 12-07-05, 09:14 AM	Depends on the genetics of your world. In mine dragons are sister species, much like dogs and wolves and coyotes. (Psst!....take it from the biologist - Wolves and dogs are genetically the same species. "Dogs" are just given a different name because they have been domesticated, and in most cases have a much different temperment - yeah, I thought it was stupid too. But do remember that binomial nomenclature was created and applied to the common fauna long before the genetic screening technology we have these days. AFAIK, coyotes actually are a different species genetically.) I think for my purposes, we'll say that all dragons fall into Family Draconis, with all the chromatic dragons falling into the same Genus, Chromis. Thus, each dragon type would be its own species within that genus. It is not their biology that allows them to crossbreed (and have fertile offspring), but rather their highly-magical nature. And by no means am I saying this crossbreeding should be a common thing. I'm talking but one or possibly two mixed dragons in the entire world at any one time. The interesting thing is going to be the half-dragon children of Storamere within the adventure....I'll have to modify the Half-dragon template, probably just by adding the second energy immunity, and making the breath weapon deal half-and-half damage, as above. And Oamu, no need to worry about derailing the thread. Discussions like these are fun. Any comments on the mechanical viability of one of the above options? I'm just concerned about getting the CR at least close to right.... this adventure is challenging even with the standard black dragon, I don't want to overdo it. One is more work than the other, but this is such a rare occurance, I'll probably only do it this once and be done with it.
bgt 12-07-05, 10:42 AM	I've been doing something like this in my games for a while now, and it works out quite nicely. And by no means am I saying this crossbreeding should be a common thing. I'm talking but one or possibly two mixed dragons in the entire world at any one time. I have quite a few more than one or two in my world, but vast majority are between are between good dragons. The good dragons are more likely to raise and protect the mixed young. Chromatic/metallic mixes are pretty much limited to silver and white dragons (MM says silvers steal eggs from whites and raise them to be good), and crosses between chromatics are usually killed by their nestmates.
Jesper 12-07-05, 01:29 PM	How would this work with a red white dragon immunity wise?
ksbsnowowl 12-07-05, 07:43 PM	How would this work with a red white dragon immunity wise?Aside from the "roleplay" reasons against it, a red/white would work like all the others. They would gain the fire and cold subtypes, and be immune to both. Really, it just makes them like the other dragon species, which have no vulnerabilities either.