Custom Dragon Design [Archive] - Wizards Community

Custom Dragon Design [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rubicantbu
05-24-04, 12:25 PM Forgive me if this is both a basic and inane question, but after much plot design, my brain is fried.

Can someone point out how exactly I can design a dragon with class levels, whether base or prestige? I have most of the other designing (feats, skills, et al) done properly, but I'm unsure how to progress further, and for some reason, the explanations in the Draconomicron aren't clicking right now :(

If someone could either point me to a page I keep overlooking/reading incorrectly or give me a quick checklist of what to do, that would be superb. I just don't want to design one incorrectly, screw up the CR, and totally destroy my group.

Thanks :)
Shadowslayer
05-24-04, 01:07 PM Some of the better advice I can find is actually in the Monster Manual. Check out page 293, under Advanced Monster Challenge Rating - there is a section on adding class levels.

That said, I believe the way to add a prestige class from Draconomicon is simply to apply it to the dragon (as you would for any other character who met the prereqs), and increase the CR by 1 for every level you give it. This should work well because the PrCs in Draco are specifically designed for dragons, whereas the core classes are not (so there's more CR guesswork with core classes).

I hope that helps. If I'm somehow wrong I hope someone will point it out so we can both learn.
Deluxe 247 G
05-24-04, 02:27 PM Okay so here's my story:

I wanted to make a Dragon who took PC levels as an NPC as a recurring enemy/ally for the party. I asked one of my PCs(Zach) if I would treat this as just another class and just add everything up. He said that you can't have a dragon who takes levels in PCs because dragons don't gain experience like everybody else. The way dragons get better is through time. This is why they're the only thing in the DND world who has a time template explaining how they get better as time progresses. I took his word for it, hey, I could just make a half-dragon. I took his word because he has read through all the Core rulebooks many times and some other DND related articles quite a few times. I have done nothing of the sort. Now I know this is irresponsible of me not to have done all of my reading and stuff...but I try to read the books as much as possible, and I just have to much other stuff to do. So his explaination made sense to me seeing as how thats not how they level up. I dunno, if I had to make a decision, I would make an educated guess as dragons can't take PC classes. I trust my players. But then again, we don't have the Draconomicon...eh...
Shadowslayer
05-24-04, 02:54 PM Here's where we're getting this from, Deluxe: Draconomicon page 86, under Dragon Prestige Classes:...a not insignificant number of dragons, when they reach an age of some maturity (often mature adult or later), move directly into prestige classes, or adopt prestige classes after a relatively short stint in one of the standard classes described in Chapter 3 of the Player's Handbook. Combine that with the eight dragon prestige classes in Draconomicon (and other sources) and you can see it has been and can be done.

Rubicantbu - if you have access to Dragon Magazine issue #320 (the latest) it has an article on dragon PCs starting on page 36.
Derren S.
05-24-04, 02:56 PM Dragons can get levels like PCs can do.
The Draconomicon has a good example on page 142 about how dragons can get levels.

Also, if dragons could not get levels, all the draconic PRCs would be wron, as would many of the Wyrms of the North articles.

When a dragon gets a level, increase his HD by a class HD (and ECL/CR) by one, look at the summ of HD if he gets another feat/increase and apply all the boni the class gives the dragon like with a normal PC.
Just don't increase all the HD dependen abilities like breath weapon when you add a class. they only increase when the dragon gets a racial HD.
Shadowslayer
05-24-04, 03:00 PM Originally posted by Derren S.
When a dragon gets a level, increase his HD by a class HD (and ECL/CR) by one, look at the summ of HD if he gets another feat/increase and apply all the boni the class gives the dragon like with a normal PC.
Just don't increase all the HD dependen abilities like breath weapon when you add a class. they only increase when the dragon gets a racial HD. All this sounds correct (and familiar). Do you have any sources for reference?
Deluxe 247 G
05-24-04, 11:13 PM Sorry for asking again seeing as how you already told me where to find it...but i dont have the draconomicon....:( But I'm still interested in making Dragons PCs so if you could post only the rules I NEED for such a monster would be much appreciated. Or just a link to the SRD(if it contains draconomicon, im not familiar with the SRD) would be helpful also:D Thanks!
Rubicantbu
05-25-04, 09:49 AM Originally posted by Derren S.

When a dragon gets a level, increase his HD by a class HD (and ECL/CR) by one, look at the summ of HD if he gets another feat/increase and apply all the boni the class gives the dragon like with a normal PC.
Just don't increase all the HD dependen abilities like breath weapon when you add a class. they only increase when the dragon gets a racial HD.

Awesome. That was the point where I think I kept mucking it up.

Thanks for all the help Shadow and Derren :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rubicantbu 05-24-04, 12:25 PM	Forgive me if this is both a basic and inane question, but after much plot design, my brain is fried. Can someone point out how exactly I can design a dragon with class levels, whether base or prestige? I have most of the other designing (feats, skills, et al) done properly, but I'm unsure how to progress further, and for some reason, the explanations in the Draconomicron aren't clicking right now :( If someone could either point me to a page I keep overlooking/reading incorrectly or give me a quick checklist of what to do, that would be superb. I just don't want to design one incorrectly, screw up the CR, and totally destroy my group. Thanks :)
Shadowslayer 05-24-04, 01:07 PM	Some of the better advice I can find is actually in the Monster Manual. Check out page 293, under Advanced Monster Challenge Rating - there is a section on adding class levels. That said, I believe the way to add a prestige class from Draconomicon is simply to apply it to the dragon (as you would for any other character who met the prereqs), and increase the CR by 1 for every level you give it. This should work well because the PrCs in Draco are specifically designed for dragons, whereas the core classes are not (so there's more CR guesswork with core classes). I hope that helps. If I'm somehow wrong I hope someone will point it out so we can both learn.
Deluxe 247 G 05-24-04, 02:27 PM	Okay so here's my story: I wanted to make a Dragon who took PC levels as an NPC as a recurring enemy/ally for the party. I asked one of my PCs(Zach) if I would treat this as just another class and just add everything up. He said that you can't have a dragon who takes levels in PCs because dragons don't gain experience like everybody else. The way dragons get better is through time. This is why they're the only thing in the DND world who has a time template explaining how they get better as time progresses. I took his word for it, hey, I could just make a half-dragon. I took his word because he has read through all the Core rulebooks many times and some other DND related articles quite a few times. I have done nothing of the sort. Now I know this is irresponsible of me not to have done all of my reading and stuff...but I try to read the books as much as possible, and I just have to much other stuff to do. So his explaination made sense to me seeing as how thats not how they level up. I dunno, if I had to make a decision, I would make an educated guess as dragons can't take PC classes. I trust my players. But then again, we don't have the Draconomicon...eh...
Shadowslayer 05-24-04, 02:54 PM	Here's where we're getting this from, Deluxe: Draconomicon page 86, under Dragon Prestige Classes:...a not insignificant number of dragons, when they reach an age of some maturity (often mature adult or later), move directly into prestige classes, or adopt prestige classes after a relatively short stint in one of the standard classes described in Chapter 3 of the Player's Handbook. Combine that with the eight dragon prestige classes in Draconomicon (and other sources) and you can see it has been and can be done. Rubicantbu - if you have access to Dragon Magazine issue #320 (the latest) it has an article on dragon PCs starting on page 36.
Derren S. 05-24-04, 02:56 PM	Dragons can get levels like PCs can do. The Draconomicon has a good example on page 142 about how dragons can get levels. Also, if dragons could not get levels, all the draconic PRCs would be wron, as would many of the Wyrms of the North articles. When a dragon gets a level, increase his HD by a class HD (and ECL/CR) by one, look at the summ of HD if he gets another feat/increase and apply all the boni the class gives the dragon like with a normal PC. Just don't increase all the HD dependen abilities like breath weapon when you add a class. they only increase when the dragon gets a racial HD.
Shadowslayer 05-24-04, 03:00 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. When a dragon gets a level, increase his HD by a class HD (and ECL/CR) by one, look at the summ of HD if he gets another feat/increase and apply all the boni the class gives the dragon like with a normal PC. Just don't increase all the HD dependen abilities like breath weapon when you add a class. they only increase when the dragon gets a racial HD. All this sounds correct (and familiar). Do you have any sources for reference?
Deluxe 247 G 05-24-04, 11:13 PM	Sorry for asking again seeing as how you already told me where to find it...but i dont have the draconomicon....:( But I'm still interested in making Dragons PCs so if you could post only the rules I NEED for such a monster would be much appreciated. Or just a link to the SRD(if it contains draconomicon, im not familiar with the SRD) would be helpful also:D Thanks!
Rubicantbu 05-25-04, 09:49 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. When a dragon gets a level, increase his HD by a class HD (and ECL/CR) by one, look at the summ of HD if he gets another feat/increase and apply all the boni the class gives the dragon like with a normal PC. Just don't increase all the HD dependen abilities like breath weapon when you add a class. they only increase when the dragon gets a racial HD. Awesome. That was the point where I think I kept mucking it up. Thanks for all the help Shadow and Derren :)