D&D movie sequal, what was the lich? [Archive] - Wizards Community

D&D movie sequal, what was the lich? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edymnion
10-13-05, 11:37 PM In the new Sci-Fi channel D&D movie (which I thoroughly enjoyed, BTW), there was a Lich using Shapechange to turn into some kind of flying monster to get around. It was black, had large wings, and 4 arms. I wanna say it was a Gargoyle, but again, it had 4 arms. Anybody know if this was an actual monster I'm just forgetting, or did the DM homebrew up something for the Lich to turn into?
Lord Schpungus
10-14-05, 12:11 AM Halfing Rogue man should totally have found the phylactery and smashed it good. He totally found it in the skull in the first lich encounter. Shame they didn't have more time for Halfling Rogue. I actually liked the barbarian and rogue better than any character from either movie, well, except for the dwarf and the wayans. You can't get any better than the wayans and the dwarf.

So it goes:

Wayans
Dwarf (who lacks a name, except in the deleted scenes)
Rogue
Female Barb.

As for what the gargoyle was, I'm thinking fiendish polymorph.
dok
10-14-05, 12:53 AM In the new Sci-Fi channel D&D movie (which I thoroughly enjoyed, BTW), there was a Lich using Shapechange to turn into some kind of flying monster to get around. It was black, had large wings, and 4 arms. I wanna say it was a Gargoyle, but again, it had 4 arms. Anybody know if this was an actual monster I'm just forgetting, or did the DM homebrew up something for the Lich to turn into?

Nycaloth? 4 arms, wings, flies, scary. Though it's green, not black, but you can't expect them to get all the details right...
Edymnion
10-14-05, 12:54 AM Halfing Rogue man should totally have found the phylactery and smashed it good. He totally found it in the skull in the first lich encounter.Um, no, that was a Gem of True Seeing, not a phylactery.
Mariilo
10-14-05, 12:59 AM Also, the black dragon breathed fire. :nonono:
Warmonger856
10-14-05, 02:08 AM Also, the black dragon breathed fire. :nonono:

My friends and I officially decided that he wasn't using a breath weapon, he was casting Fireball over and over again :P He is a god, after all, he probably had the spell slots to spare. Of much more concern to us was that Falazure spent a good twenty minutes destroying one courtyard out of an entire city, and didn't even do that good a job of it.

And to be on topic, I second the vote for the lich turning into a nycaloth. Took me most of the movie to figure out what it was, too.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-14-05, 02:35 AM My friends and I officially decided that he wasn't using a breath weapon, he was casting Fireball over and over again :P He is a god, after all, he probably had the spell slots to spare. Of much more concern to us was that Falazure spent a good twenty minutes destroying one courtyard out of an entire city, and didn't even do that good a job of it.

You've obviously never made a quiche.

He was letting them simmer. Of course he could annihilate them in a single mighy exhalation, but that's no fun. It's over too quick. Where's the excitement? Where's the bloodspray?
Thrasher
10-14-05, 09:51 AM My girlfriend and I very much enjoyed the movie. But as we watched it i pointed out everything that was wrong up until the end. When the dragon god came out she said "oh thats a cool looking black dragon. But why is it breathing fire? I though black dragons breathed acid" LOL and she doesnt even play D&D. But all in all I liked the movie. Have tryed to sit down and watch it again but i just cant do it. For me it was one of those movies you end up buying and watching once a year or so. Good but not Independence Day rewatchability.
Realms of Chaos
10-14-05, 10:30 AM I missed that movie. What was it called. I got to watch it.
SinisterSeraph
10-14-05, 10:54 AM Independence Day had rewatchability? :P
obrysii
10-14-05, 11:51 AM Um, no, that was a Gem of True Seeing, not a phylactery.

Since when can't a Gem of True Seeing be a phylactery...?

Also, that Lich violated the Polymorph rule: Polymorph does not function on Undead.
The Painter
10-14-05, 12:19 PM It does too. A lich is immune to ploymorph effects that it does not want to be affected by. A lich CAN, in fact, be polymorphed by his own spells or those that he specifically wants to be affected by.
obrysii
10-14-05, 12:41 PM It does too. A lich is immune to ploymorph effects that it does not want to be affected by. A lich CAN, in fact, be polymorphed by his own spells or those that he specifically wants to be affected by.

Nope.

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As far as I know, Undead are not Living creatures.
yonman
10-14-05, 01:25 PM Nope.

As far as I know, Undead are not Living creatures.

SRD:
Shapechange
Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Ogre4Hire
10-14-05, 03:50 PM I just wish that the Lich had looked like a real skeletal undead, instead of a Hobgoblin with a skin condition.
Thrasher
10-14-05, 05:22 PM Independence Day had rewatchability? :P

sure it did. when it came out it had the best special effects of its time. so it had some rewatchability. Especially if you had kids at that time.:tongue:
Thrasher
10-14-05, 05:23 PM I just wish that the Lich had looked like a real skeletal undead, instead of a Hobgoblin with a skin condition.
LOL nice. i was trying to think of another way to decribe him.
Acheron
10-14-05, 05:57 PM one more thing to add to the list:

Why was the only diety in the whole movie Obad Hai?...

"I bought this scroll from the temple of OBAD HAI"

"they draw their magic from OBAD HAI"

"Hi, I'm a cleric of OBAD HAI"

The rogue never sneak attacked :( . I'm sad now. I almost cried :weep: .
yonman
10-14-05, 06:52 PM one more thing to add to the list:

Why was the only diety in the whole movie Obad Hai?...

"I bought this scroll from the temple of OBAD HAI"

"they draw their magic from OBAD HAI"

"Hi, I'm a cleric of OBAD HAI"

The rogue never sneak attacked :( . I'm sad now. I almost cried :weep: .

Well, not that Liches can be sneaked attacked, but the initial attack that he did with his spring dagger would have been considered to be a sneak attack if the lich was not undead. Also, I would consider the attack he did on the corpse creature guy to be a sneak attack.

That city/region was obviously monotheistic in nature since they only worshipped Obad-hai. I think they decided not to put in more than one religion for movie purposes.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
10-14-05, 07:58 PM Nycaloth? 4 arms, wings, flies, scary. Though it's green, not black, but you can't expect them to get all the details right...
Until 3.5 added another set of arms as a result of an artist who couldn't be bothered to draw the correct number of arms in 3.0, Nycaloths had 2 arms.
obrysii
10-14-05, 11:24 PM SRD:
Shapechange

Nope.

To quote the Shapechange spell:
This spell functions like polymorph

Polymorph doesn't allow non-living things to use it; Shapechange functions as Polymorph.
primemover003
10-14-05, 11:51 PM Folks the Lich probably Shapechanged into a Margoyle (4 armed variety of the normal Gargoyle) or it was just a creative license thing... I think it was a referance to Acerack and the Tomb of Horrors.

The Black dragon wasn't a Black dragon... It was the Avatar of Falazure, the Dragon God of the Title... it was also fairly Undead looking. So as a God it could breathe whatever it wanted or it was a Dracolich which IIRC has a fiery breath weapon.
DarkDragonlord
10-15-05, 12:25 AM it was probably Obad Hai becuase a cleric of pelor would have dusted said lich no problem. yeah that lich was kind add looking. and what kind of dragon was that who ate the cleric?
obrysii
10-15-05, 12:42 AM and what kind of dragon was that who ate the cleric?

A White suffering from some sort of tooth problem.
thegraveyard
10-15-05, 01:03 AM I liked the movie, I found it amusing.

and to clear up the Lich polymorph or shapechange error. in the Lich section on page 167 of the MM 3.5 under immunities the book says a Lich CAN use polymorph effects on themselves.
obrysii
10-15-05, 09:07 AM and to clear up the Lich polymorph or shapechange error. in the Lich section on page 167 of the MM 3.5 under immunities the book says a Lich CAN use polymorph effects on themselves.

Except you seemed to ignore the fact that Lichs are Undead, and therefore are not valid targets (regardless if they're immune to their own polymorph or not) for Polymorph.

A DM MIGHT allow them to use Shapechange, but RAW they lose both.
The Painter
10-15-05, 10:16 AM Except that SHapechange has target "PERSONAL" and Polymorph has target "One Living Creature".

Spells that say "Like X except" are like the other spell except where specifically noted. Shapechange specifically has a different Target than Polymorph, thus one can Shapechange even as an Undead creature.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
10-15-05, 12:09 PM Folks the Lich probably Shapechanged into a Margoyle (4 armed variety of the normal Gargoyle) or it was just a creative license thing... I think it was a referance to Acerack and the Tomb of Horrors.

Nope. Margoyles have 2 arms. If it was a reference to the Tomb of Horrors, it'd be a Four-Armed Gargoyle.
wizkid
10-15-05, 01:01 PM Do you know when they are going to rerun that movie? I missed it the first time. :confused:
Darkon Slayer
10-15-05, 01:39 PM A White suffering from some sort of tooth problem.
I think it was suppose to be a White Dragon, but it looked like they took to much creative licensing cause it looked like it was made of ice!
Lord Schpungus
10-15-05, 01:49 PM Did you even read where he pointed you? It specifically says "they can use polymorph effects on themselves". I think that's RAW enough to allow it.
Thrasher
10-15-05, 02:02 PM yeah the ice dragon was all wrong. it didnt look stupid like white dragons do
obrysii
10-16-05, 12:49 AM Did you even read where he pointed you? It specifically says "they can use polymorph effects on themselves". I think that's RAW enough to allow it.

No, it specifically states:

polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves)

Polymorph effects (aka Shapechange, depending on how the DM views it), but not Polymorph itself.
primemover003
10-16-05, 01:48 AM What was wrong with the White??? It didn't look that bad to me. A white doesn't have to be whiter than white, it can be a dirty grey....
Freefall
10-16-05, 05:41 PM No, it specifically states:

Polymorph effects (aka Shapechange, depending on how the DM views it), but not Polymorph itself.

You know, that part that you quoted in the parentheses is exactly what he said. I don't see any difference in meaning with what you quoted. It also seems pretty clear that it is supposed to be an exception. Polymorph in general cannot affect undead, and someone else still cannot successfully polymorph the lich, but it can polymorph itself. Not being useable on undead at all is the general case. The lich entry makes a specific exception, which takes precedence. Kind of like how fireballs actually heal Iron Golems instead of inflicting damage. Saying that the phrase, "they can use polymorph effects on themselves" doesn't mean they can actually polymorph themselves is some very strange hairsplitting on your part.
obrysii
10-16-05, 07:02 PM There's a difference between "Polymorph effects" and Polymorph the spell.

Polymorph effects mean changing shape, which Shapechange can do. RAW they don't work.

I'm only going by the rules as they are written. Any sane DM would likely see that and allow it; in fact: I'm one of those. I think it's sort of silly undead can't use Polymorph. So I am on that side. But RAW, they aren't valid targets, and their entry doesn't say otherwise, just that should they acquire a source that allows polymorph for undead, they aren't immune to it.
Starmage21
10-16-05, 08:02 PM Do you know when they are going to rerun that movie? I missed it the first time. :confused:

November 6th 9pm EST is when they will show it again. I had to look it up myself because I missed it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 10-13-05, 11:37 PM	In the new Sci-Fi channel D&D movie (which I thoroughly enjoyed, BTW), there was a Lich using Shapechange to turn into some kind of flying monster to get around. It was black, had large wings, and 4 arms. I wanna say it was a Gargoyle, but again, it had 4 arms. Anybody know if this was an actual monster I'm just forgetting, or did the DM homebrew up something for the Lich to turn into?
Lord Schpungus 10-14-05, 12:11 AM	Halfing Rogue man should totally have found the phylactery and smashed it good. He totally found it in the skull in the first lich encounter. Shame they didn't have more time for Halfling Rogue. I actually liked the barbarian and rogue better than any character from either movie, well, except for the dwarf and the wayans. You can't get any better than the wayans and the dwarf. So it goes: Wayans Dwarf (who lacks a name, except in the deleted scenes) Rogue Female Barb. As for what the gargoyle was, I'm thinking fiendish polymorph.
dok 10-14-05, 12:53 AM	In the new Sci-Fi channel D&D movie (which I thoroughly enjoyed, BTW), there was a Lich using Shapechange to turn into some kind of flying monster to get around. It was black, had large wings, and 4 arms. I wanna say it was a Gargoyle, but again, it had 4 arms. Anybody know if this was an actual monster I'm just forgetting, or did the DM homebrew up something for the Lich to turn into? Nycaloth? 4 arms, wings, flies, scary. Though it's green, not black, but you can't expect them to get all the details right...
Edymnion 10-14-05, 12:54 AM	Halfing Rogue man should totally have found the phylactery and smashed it good. He totally found it in the skull in the first lich encounter.Um, no, that was a Gem of True Seeing, not a phylactery.
Mariilo 10-14-05, 12:59 AM	Also, the black dragon breathed fire. :nonono:
Warmonger856 10-14-05, 02:08 AM	Also, the black dragon breathed fire. :nonono: My friends and I officially decided that he wasn't using a breath weapon, he was casting Fireball over and over again :P He is a god, after all, he probably had the spell slots to spare. Of much more concern to us was that Falazure spent a good twenty minutes destroying one courtyard out of an entire city, and didn't even do that good a job of it. And to be on topic, I second the vote for the lich turning into a nycaloth. Took me most of the movie to figure out what it was, too.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-14-05, 02:35 AM	My friends and I officially decided that he wasn't using a breath weapon, he was casting Fireball over and over again :P He is a god, after all, he probably had the spell slots to spare. Of much more concern to us was that Falazure spent a good twenty minutes destroying one courtyard out of an entire city, and didn't even do that good a job of it. You've obviously never made a quiche. He was letting them simmer. Of course he could annihilate them in a single mighy exhalation, but that's no fun. It's over too quick. Where's the excitement? Where's the bloodspray?
Thrasher 10-14-05, 09:51 AM	My girlfriend and I very much enjoyed the movie. But as we watched it i pointed out everything that was wrong up until the end. When the dragon god came out she said "oh thats a cool looking black dragon. But why is it breathing fire? I though black dragons breathed acid" LOL and she doesnt even play D&D. But all in all I liked the movie. Have tryed to sit down and watch it again but i just cant do it. For me it was one of those movies you end up buying and watching once a year or so. Good but not Independence Day rewatchability.
Realms of Chaos 10-14-05, 10:30 AM	I missed that movie. What was it called. I got to watch it.
SinisterSeraph 10-14-05, 10:54 AM	Independence Day had rewatchability? :P
obrysii 10-14-05, 11:51 AM	Um, no, that was a Gem of True Seeing, not a phylactery. Since when can't a Gem of True Seeing be a phylactery...? Also, that Lich violated the Polymorph rule: Polymorph does not function on Undead.
The Painter 10-14-05, 12:19 PM	It does too. A lich is immune to ploymorph effects that it does not want to be affected by. A lich CAN, in fact, be polymorphed by his own spells or those that he specifically wants to be affected by.
obrysii 10-14-05, 12:41 PM	It does too. A lich is immune to ploymorph effects that it does not want to be affected by. A lich CAN, in fact, be polymorphed by his own spells or those that he specifically wants to be affected by. Nope. Polymorph Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No As far as I know, Undead are not Living creatures.
yonman 10-14-05, 01:25 PM	Nope. As far as I know, Undead are not Living creatures. SRD: Shapechange Transmutation Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Ogre4Hire 10-14-05, 03:50 PM	I just wish that the Lich had looked like a real skeletal undead, instead of a Hobgoblin with a skin condition.
Thrasher 10-14-05, 05:22 PM	Independence Day had rewatchability? :P sure it did. when it came out it had the best special effects of its time. so it had some rewatchability. Especially if you had kids at that time.:tongue:
Thrasher 10-14-05, 05:23 PM	I just wish that the Lich had looked like a real skeletal undead, instead of a Hobgoblin with a skin condition. LOL nice. i was trying to think of another way to decribe him.
Acheron 10-14-05, 05:57 PM	one more thing to add to the list: Why was the only diety in the whole movie Obad Hai?... "I bought this scroll from the temple of OBAD HAI" "they draw their magic from OBAD HAI" "Hi, I'm a cleric of OBAD HAI" The rogue never sneak attacked :( . I'm sad now. I almost cried :weep: .
yonman 10-14-05, 06:52 PM	one more thing to add to the list: Why was the only diety in the whole movie Obad Hai?... "I bought this scroll from the temple of OBAD HAI" "they draw their magic from OBAD HAI" "Hi, I'm a cleric of OBAD HAI" The rogue never sneak attacked :( . I'm sad now. I almost cried :weep: . Well, not that Liches can be sneaked attacked, but the initial attack that he did with his spring dagger would have been considered to be a sneak attack if the lich was not undead. Also, I would consider the attack he did on the corpse creature guy to be a sneak attack. That city/region was obviously monotheistic in nature since they only worshipped Obad-hai. I think they decided not to put in more than one religion for movie purposes.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-14-05, 07:58 PM	Nycaloth? 4 arms, wings, flies, scary. Though it's green, not black, but you can't expect them to get all the details right... Until 3.5 added another set of arms as a result of an artist who couldn't be bothered to draw the correct number of arms in 3.0, Nycaloths had 2 arms.
obrysii 10-14-05, 11:24 PM	SRD: Shapechange Nope. To quote the Shapechange spell: This spell functions like polymorph Polymorph doesn't allow non-living things to use it; Shapechange functions as Polymorph.
primemover003 10-14-05, 11:51 PM	Folks the Lich probably Shapechanged into a Margoyle (4 armed variety of the normal Gargoyle) or it was just a creative license thing... I think it was a referance to Acerack and the Tomb of Horrors. The Black dragon wasn't a Black dragon... It was the Avatar of Falazure, the Dragon God of the Title... it was also fairly Undead looking. So as a God it could breathe whatever it wanted or it was a Dracolich which IIRC has a fiery breath weapon.
DarkDragonlord 10-15-05, 12:25 AM	it was probably Obad Hai becuase a cleric of pelor would have dusted said lich no problem. yeah that lich was kind add looking. and what kind of dragon was that who ate the cleric?
obrysii 10-15-05, 12:42 AM	and what kind of dragon was that who ate the cleric? A White suffering from some sort of tooth problem.
thegraveyard 10-15-05, 01:03 AM	I liked the movie, I found it amusing. and to clear up the Lich polymorph or shapechange error. in the Lich section on page 167 of the MM 3.5 under immunities the book says a Lich CAN use polymorph effects on themselves.
obrysii 10-15-05, 09:07 AM	and to clear up the Lich polymorph or shapechange error. in the Lich section on page 167 of the MM 3.5 under immunities the book says a Lich CAN use polymorph effects on themselves. Except you seemed to ignore the fact that Lichs are Undead, and therefore are not valid targets (regardless if they're immune to their own polymorph or not) for Polymorph. A DM MIGHT allow them to use Shapechange, but RAW they lose both.
The Painter 10-15-05, 10:16 AM	Except that SHapechange has target "PERSONAL" and Polymorph has target "One Living Creature". Spells that say "Like X except" are like the other spell except where specifically noted. Shapechange specifically has a different Target than Polymorph, thus one can Shapechange even as an Undead creature.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-15-05, 12:09 PM	Folks the Lich probably Shapechanged into a Margoyle (4 armed variety of the normal Gargoyle) or it was just a creative license thing... I think it was a referance to Acerack and the Tomb of Horrors. Nope. Margoyles have 2 arms. If it was a reference to the Tomb of Horrors, it'd be a Four-Armed Gargoyle.
wizkid 10-15-05, 01:01 PM	Do you know when they are going to rerun that movie? I missed it the first time. :confused:
Darkon Slayer 10-15-05, 01:39 PM	A White suffering from some sort of tooth problem. I think it was suppose to be a White Dragon, but it looked like they took to much creative licensing cause it looked like it was made of ice!
Lord Schpungus 10-15-05, 01:49 PM	Did you even read where he pointed you? It specifically says "they can use polymorph effects on themselves". I think that's RAW enough to allow it.
Thrasher 10-15-05, 02:02 PM	yeah the ice dragon was all wrong. it didnt look stupid like white dragons do
obrysii 10-16-05, 12:49 AM	Did you even read where he pointed you? It specifically says "they can use polymorph effects on themselves". I think that's RAW enough to allow it. No, it specifically states: polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves) Polymorph effects (aka Shapechange, depending on how the DM views it), but not Polymorph itself.
primemover003 10-16-05, 01:48 AM	What was wrong with the White??? It didn't look that bad to me. A white doesn't have to be whiter than white, it can be a dirty grey....
Freefall 10-16-05, 05:41 PM	No, it specifically states: Polymorph effects (aka Shapechange, depending on how the DM views it), but not Polymorph itself. You know, that part that you quoted in the parentheses is exactly what he said. I don't see any difference in meaning with what you quoted. It also seems pretty clear that it is supposed to be an exception. Polymorph in general cannot affect undead, and someone else still cannot successfully polymorph the lich, but it can polymorph itself. Not being useable on undead at all is the general case. The lich entry makes a specific exception, which takes precedence. Kind of like how fireballs actually heal Iron Golems instead of inflicting damage. Saying that the phrase, "they can use polymorph effects on themselves" doesn't mean they can actually polymorph themselves is some very strange hairsplitting on your part.
obrysii 10-16-05, 07:02 PM	There's a difference between "Polymorph effects" and Polymorph the spell. Polymorph effects mean changing shape, which Shapechange can do. RAW they don't work. I'm only going by the rules as they are written. Any sane DM would likely see that and allow it; in fact: I'm one of those. I think it's sort of silly undead can't use Polymorph. So I am on that side. But RAW, they aren't valid targets, and their entry doesn't say otherwise, just that should they acquire a source that allows polymorph for undead, they aren't immune to it.
Starmage21 10-16-05, 08:02 PM	Do you know when they are going to rerun that movie? I missed it the first time. :confused: November 6th 9pm EST is when they will show it again. I had to look it up myself because I missed it.