Damage Reduction: An Oversight? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Damage Reduction: An Oversight? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eladris
10-20-04, 01:17 PM I was all for the new Damage Reduction rules, involving metals like silver and adamantine more directly in combat, until I hit the following problem: monsters with DR X/special metal cannot fight their own race.

For example, werewolves have DR 10/silver, making it almost impossible for one werewolf to injure another without a critical hit (which still has a chance of doing no damage) or an extended series of grapple checks.

Iron golems are similarly "immune" to one another's attacks.

Is there a solution for this? It seems to make little or no sense where 'fluff' is concerned and I am wary about "house-ruling" such a broad rule like Damage Reduction.
d_nychus
10-20-04, 01:59 PM Umm, why SHOULD they be set up to be able to fight each other in the first place? Are you saying a werewolf should be better set up to fight other werewolves than your average PC party? What sense does that make?

And what do you mean by "cannot?" Really, all the DR means is that a fight between werewolves is going to be a long, painful, and bloody battle. Same with demons and devils, and even golems.
lugnut71
10-20-04, 02:10 PM I also think a golem does enough damage to penetrate another golem's DR. Not certain and really don't care to look it up. Yeah Iron Golem's will bypass it on almost every hit.
As will Stone golem's, Clay golem's and flesh golem's. Of course this differs if they are fighting a more powerful golem but each one easily bypasses its own.
Mind Rogue
10-20-04, 02:19 PM Well, all the creatures with DR/magic have little clauses that say, "This creatures natural attacks are treated as being magical for purposes of overcoming damage reduction." You can just add a similar clause for creature with DR/silver or DR/adamantine. This allows a pair or werewolves to cut each other to pieces. Since they both recieve the benefits, it doesn't really change their comparative power levels, and thus probably shouldn't affect their CRs or ECLs any since the benefit only applies against creatures who now recieve the same benefit against you. This also means that more powerful devils, whose weapons are treated as silver aligned, can easily beat up weak ones, who have DR/silver or good, but the weak ones cannot beat up the powerful ones with DR/silver and good. The interesting thing is with the middle ground ones whose DR is simply against good.

Also, you shouldn't do this with the alignment DRs. Such creatures usually treat their weapons as being aligned in one way, you shouldn't treat them as being aligned the other way too.

Also, this gives a reasonable explanation of how Hercules killed the invincible beast. It has DR 15/adamantium or 15/epic or something even more insane. However its claw attacks also count to be epic adamantium weapons or something like that, and thus Hercules was able to grapple the beast and use its claws to kill it.

All in all, it is mostly a judgement call. Do you want werewolves taking a long time to scratch and claw each other to death, or should it be a shorter ordeal?
Eladris
10-20-04, 02:20 PM Umm, why SHOULD they be set up to be able to fight each other in the first place? Are you saying a werewolf should be better set up to fight other werewolves than your average PC party? What sense does that make?
Well, they included a system for creatures such as Gargoyles to be able to injure each other (creatures with DR X/magic count as being armed with magic weapons for the purpose of beating damage reduction), but not creatures like demons, devils and lycanthropes. I just wondered what the sense in that was. I think a werewolf should be at least as competent at fighting its own kind as an appropriately equipped fighter of level equal to its CR - not the equivalent of a low strength fighter armed with non-silvered weapons.

And what do you mean by "cannot?"
Rather than 'can not', I should say that they are ill fitted to do so. It makes little sense to me that a gargoyle's claws can injure a great wyrm, but a werewolf's claws are nearly ineffective against other werewolves.

I also think a golem does enough damage to penetrate another golem's DR.
I didn't look it up, but I assume you are correct. My point was that they should not have to suffer the DR, not that they couldn't overpower it.
Eladris
10-20-04, 02:24 PM You can just add a similar clause for creature with DR/silver or DR/adamantine.

This was my original fix, but I was hoping to get some feedback on it before enacting such a broad house rule. Mostly, I am trying to understand why the game designers purposefully chose to omit said clause from non-magical DR.
jagggar
10-20-04, 02:50 PM Are werewolves and such actually not allowed to use silver weapons, or is it just a liability of the enemy taking the weapon?
Eladris
10-20-04, 03:12 PM Are werewolves and such actually not allowed to use silver weapons, or is it just a liability of the enemy taking the weapon?
Both, I suppose. It implies an inability or unwillingness to use weapons when in hybrid form by listing only natural attacks.
was_fired
10-21-04, 12:15 AM Why should a demon have their attacks treated as good for the purpose of bypassing DR? By the same token why should a werewolf. An increase to your defensive ability doesn't have to improve your offensive capacity. Adamantium fullplate doesn't let me ignore 8 points of AC from adamantium fullplate and it's three points of DR. The simplist solution is just to use silver weapons when they fight each other. Just like demons and devils make liberal use of align and bless weapon when fighting each other (scrolls + UMD = fun).

Or as they put it in heroes of might and magic four: The angle blade was not forged by angles as it's modern name implies. It was forged by a demon lord to aid him in his war against his own kind. For in truth the most effective way to destroy a being is to distrupt it's vital energies, and no one has a greater unstanding of the weaknesses of a demon's energy than another demon.
robertliguori
10-21-04, 12:28 AM Also, this gives a reasonable explanation of how Hercules killed the invincible beast. It has DR 15/adamantium or 15/epic or something even more insane. However its claw attacks also count to be epic adamantium weapons or something like that, and thus Hercules was able to grapple the beast and use its claws to kill it.

Actually, Hercules killed the Neman lion by snapping its neck. Apparently he has 5 Reaping Mauler levels.

And since DR is a property of creatures, not objects, once dead, the NL lost DR. However, it apparently retained hardness, since most versions of the legend have Hercules need to use said claws to skin said lion.
was_fired
10-21-04, 02:19 AM There are a huge varieties of tales about how he killed it: Broke it's neck, strangled it, just took it out, took it out with divine aid, stabbing it through the eye, and dropping a huge rock on it are the only ones I am familiar with though.
DM Zoc
10-21-04, 04:22 AM I've only heard the strangling one. It supposedly had an impenetrable hide (immunity to slashing and piercing).
d_nychus
10-21-04, 09:06 AM I've only heard the strangling one. It supposedly had an impenetrable hide (immunity to slashing and piercing).

Just goes to show suffocation is just as broken in real legends as in D&D. ;)

But getting back to the main topic, I disagree that a werewolf should be set up just as well as an equal CR fighter for fighting his own kind. A werewolf has a set group of powers and abilities that give it it's CR, just as an NPC fighter does. But they are wholely different creations, and cannot be compared on anything more than how challenging they are to the party, not how challenging they are to each other. The fact that a werewolf cannot easily harm another werewolf should not be a factor at all. They are meant to fight other creatures, not themselves.

And a PC werewolf should make mincemeat of a normal werewolf any day of the week. Not due to him being a werewolf, but due to him being a PC with wealth and customized feats. That's what PCs do, be better than anyone else of their species. The rules and DR reflect this nicely as written.

If anything, I rather have a slight problem with the DR X/magic. I don't think a gargoyle SHOULD be able to damage a dragon with his claws. However, that's just a throwback from the worthless 3.0 DR. I think some creatures should be treated inherently as magic or epic weapons, whether or not they have DR magic or epic in the first place. Some creatures it would seem to make more sense with, like gargoyles, for instance. I could see gargoyles hammering away at each other all day, and not dealing a single point of damage to one another. How else would such nasty, tricky, and outright evil beasts ever learn to work together as packs unless they just had no good way of trashing one another in first place?

Why the hell do gricks have +1 tentacles? Why don't elementals strike as though they ARE magic? why can't older dragons start striking epic DR without having epic DR?

I only have a slight issue with it, but not enough to bother changing it. There's bigger problems in D&D. But, hey, nothing is perfect, and everything can and should be scrutinized. I'm not saying 'you're wrong' or anything like that, Eladris, just that I disagree with you. Frankly, I'd help you alter the DR for your campaign. But I would protest any core changes to the rules to reflect that. Like that ever matters to WotC. :D
eggplantm
10-21-04, 10:37 AM The DR rules never bothered me in this fact. I'd assume magic creatures to have magical attacks but creatures vulnerable to silver don't need silver attacks. Their in-fights are just really long and bloody making liberal use of power attack. It doesn't follow the logic that they need to have a method of killing their own kind, it follows the logic that very magical creatures would function as magical weapons simply because their bodies are infused with this power.

Here's a real thought for you. Many demons and devils have regeneration that can only be countered by good aligned attacks. In the blood war, these never come up so how does the fighting ever stop. Also, because of the DR/good thing the fights last a long time. A Blood war battle has to last a damn eternity by necessity.
Lina_Inverse
10-21-04, 11:24 AM I was all for the new Damage Reduction rules, involving metals like silver and adamantine more directly in combat, until I hit the following problem: monsters with DR X/special metal cannot fight their own race.

For example, werewolves have DR 10/silver, making it almost impossible for one werewolf to injure another without a critical hit (which still has a chance of doing no damage) or an extended series of grapple checks.

Iron golems are similarly "immune" to one another's attacks.

Is there a solution for this? It seems to make little or no sense where 'fluff' is concerned and I am wary about "house-ruling" such a broad rule like Damage Reduction.

no they shouldnt be able to harm eachother.the old fae legends didnt have fae that could kill eachother,or werewolves that could kill eachother.nope they needed the special materials just as much.though it couldnt hurt to give -some- monsters material attacks,adamantium being the most easy to fathom(its not that there weak to it,its that adamantium is THAT DAMN TOUGH)
green_yawgmoth
10-21-04, 02:31 PM I also think a golem does enough damage to penetrate another golem's DR. Not certain and really don't care to look it up. Yeah Iron Golem's will bypass it on almost every hit.
As will Stone golem's, Clay golem's and flesh golem's. Of course this differs if they are fighting a more powerful golem but each one easily bypasses its own.
Apostrophes do not make a word plural, that make it possessive. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/eng101.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Mind Rogue
10-21-04, 02:57 PM Apostrophes do not make a word plural, that make it possessive.
I hope then that he is referring to the Iron Golem's attack and not to the Golem itself. Of course, if he wants to use the plural possesive, it should be iron golems' attacks. Don't necessarily assume that Lugnut doesn't know how to use appostrophes (although it is a possibility), but he could also be using an assumed object.

Of course, my post doesn't say which he does, although Yawgmoth's does. Lugnut's just uses too many of them for us to follow easily. But do note that you understand that the subject of all three clauses is "post", even though the word only appeared in one of them, just like the word you (or you all) does not appear in most commands. (You) sit down now!
green_yawgmoth
10-22-04, 12:15 AM He does however say "Yeah Iron Gomem's will bypass..." which sounds as if he wishes to simply make it plural, not possessive. In the case of plural possessive, the apostrophe is still making it possessive, not plural. ;) I think Mel should make a permanent announcement giving a basic outline of commonly misspelled words/misused punctuation. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eladris 10-20-04, 01:17 PM	I was all for the new Damage Reduction rules, involving metals like silver and adamantine more directly in combat, until I hit the following problem: monsters with DR X/special metal cannot fight their own race. For example, werewolves have DR 10/silver, making it almost impossible for one werewolf to injure another without a critical hit (which still has a chance of doing no damage) or an extended series of grapple checks. Iron golems are similarly "immune" to one another's attacks. Is there a solution for this? It seems to make little or no sense where 'fluff' is concerned and I am wary about "house-ruling" such a broad rule like Damage Reduction.
d_nychus 10-20-04, 01:59 PM	Umm, why SHOULD they be set up to be able to fight each other in the first place? Are you saying a werewolf should be better set up to fight other werewolves than your average PC party? What sense does that make? And what do you mean by "cannot?" Really, all the DR means is that a fight between werewolves is going to be a long, painful, and bloody battle. Same with demons and devils, and even golems.
lugnut71 10-20-04, 02:10 PM	I also think a golem does enough damage to penetrate another golem's DR. Not certain and really don't care to look it up. Yeah Iron Golem's will bypass it on almost every hit. As will Stone golem's, Clay golem's and flesh golem's. Of course this differs if they are fighting a more powerful golem but each one easily bypasses its own.
Mind Rogue 10-20-04, 02:19 PM	Well, all the creatures with DR/magic have little clauses that say, "This creatures natural attacks are treated as being magical for purposes of overcoming damage reduction." You can just add a similar clause for creature with DR/silver or DR/adamantine. This allows a pair or werewolves to cut each other to pieces. Since they both recieve the benefits, it doesn't really change their comparative power levels, and thus probably shouldn't affect their CRs or ECLs any since the benefit only applies against creatures who now recieve the same benefit against you. This also means that more powerful devils, whose weapons are treated as silver aligned, can easily beat up weak ones, who have DR/silver or good, but the weak ones cannot beat up the powerful ones with DR/silver and good. The interesting thing is with the middle ground ones whose DR is simply against good. Also, you shouldn't do this with the alignment DRs. Such creatures usually treat their weapons as being aligned in one way, you shouldn't treat them as being aligned the other way too. Also, this gives a reasonable explanation of how Hercules killed the invincible beast. It has DR 15/adamantium or 15/epic or something even more insane. However its claw attacks also count to be epic adamantium weapons or something like that, and thus Hercules was able to grapple the beast and use its claws to kill it. All in all, it is mostly a judgement call. Do you want werewolves taking a long time to scratch and claw each other to death, or should it be a shorter ordeal?
Eladris 10-20-04, 02:20 PM	Umm, why SHOULD they be set up to be able to fight each other in the first place? Are you saying a werewolf should be better set up to fight other werewolves than your average PC party? What sense does that make? Well, they included a system for creatures such as Gargoyles to be able to injure each other (creatures with DR X/magic count as being armed with magic weapons for the purpose of beating damage reduction), but not creatures like demons, devils and lycanthropes. I just wondered what the sense in that was. I think a werewolf should be at least as competent at fighting its own kind as an appropriately equipped fighter of level equal to its CR - not the equivalent of a low strength fighter armed with non-silvered weapons. And what do you mean by "cannot?" Rather than 'can not', I should say that they are ill fitted to do so. It makes little sense to me that a gargoyle's claws can injure a great wyrm, but a werewolf's claws are nearly ineffective against other werewolves. I also think a golem does enough damage to penetrate another golem's DR. I didn't look it up, but I assume you are correct. My point was that they should not have to suffer the DR, not that they couldn't overpower it.
Eladris 10-20-04, 02:24 PM	You can just add a similar clause for creature with DR/silver or DR/adamantine. This was my original fix, but I was hoping to get some feedback on it before enacting such a broad house rule. Mostly, I am trying to understand why the game designers purposefully chose to omit said clause from non-magical DR.
jagggar 10-20-04, 02:50 PM	Are werewolves and such actually not allowed to use silver weapons, or is it just a liability of the enemy taking the weapon?
Eladris 10-20-04, 03:12 PM	Are werewolves and such actually not allowed to use silver weapons, or is it just a liability of the enemy taking the weapon? Both, I suppose. It implies an inability or unwillingness to use weapons when in hybrid form by listing only natural attacks.
was_fired 10-21-04, 12:15 AM	Why should a demon have their attacks treated as good for the purpose of bypassing DR? By the same token why should a werewolf. An increase to your defensive ability doesn't have to improve your offensive capacity. Adamantium fullplate doesn't let me ignore 8 points of AC from adamantium fullplate and it's three points of DR. The simplist solution is just to use silver weapons when they fight each other. Just like demons and devils make liberal use of align and bless weapon when fighting each other (scrolls + UMD = fun). Or as they put it in heroes of might and magic four: The angle blade was not forged by angles as it's modern name implies. It was forged by a demon lord to aid him in his war against his own kind. For in truth the most effective way to destroy a being is to distrupt it's vital energies, and no one has a greater unstanding of the weaknesses of a demon's energy than another demon.
robertliguori 10-21-04, 12:28 AM	Also, this gives a reasonable explanation of how Hercules killed the invincible beast. It has DR 15/adamantium or 15/epic or something even more insane. However its claw attacks also count to be epic adamantium weapons or something like that, and thus Hercules was able to grapple the beast and use its claws to kill it. Actually, Hercules killed the Neman lion by snapping its neck. Apparently he has 5 Reaping Mauler levels. And since DR is a property of creatures, not objects, once dead, the NL lost DR. However, it apparently retained hardness, since most versions of the legend have Hercules need to use said claws to skin said lion.
was_fired 10-21-04, 02:19 AM	There are a huge varieties of tales about how he killed it: Broke it's neck, strangled it, just took it out, took it out with divine aid, stabbing it through the eye, and dropping a huge rock on it are the only ones I am familiar with though.
DM Zoc 10-21-04, 04:22 AM	I've only heard the strangling one. It supposedly had an impenetrable hide (immunity to slashing and piercing).
d_nychus 10-21-04, 09:06 AM	I've only heard the strangling one. It supposedly had an impenetrable hide (immunity to slashing and piercing). Just goes to show suffocation is just as broken in real legends as in D&D. ;) But getting back to the main topic, I disagree that a werewolf should be set up just as well as an equal CR fighter for fighting his own kind. A werewolf has a set group of powers and abilities that give it it's CR, just as an NPC fighter does. But they are wholely different creations, and cannot be compared on anything more than how challenging they are to the party, not how challenging they are to each other. The fact that a werewolf cannot easily harm another werewolf should not be a factor at all. They are meant to fight other creatures, not themselves. And a PC werewolf should make mincemeat of a normal werewolf any day of the week. Not due to him being a werewolf, but due to him being a PC with wealth and customized feats. That's what PCs do, be better than anyone else of their species. The rules and DR reflect this nicely as written. If anything, I rather have a slight problem with the DR X/magic. I don't think a gargoyle SHOULD be able to damage a dragon with his claws. However, that's just a throwback from the worthless 3.0 DR. I think some creatures should be treated inherently as magic or epic weapons, whether or not they have DR magic or epic in the first place. Some creatures it would seem to make more sense with, like gargoyles, for instance. I could see gargoyles hammering away at each other all day, and not dealing a single point of damage to one another. How else would such nasty, tricky, and outright evil beasts ever learn to work together as packs unless they just had no good way of trashing one another in first place? Why the hell do gricks have +1 tentacles? Why don't elementals strike as though they ARE magic? why can't older dragons start striking epic DR without having epic DR? I only have a slight issue with it, but not enough to bother changing it. There's bigger problems in D&D. But, hey, nothing is perfect, and everything can and should be scrutinized. I'm not saying 'you're wrong' or anything like that, Eladris, just that I disagree with you. Frankly, I'd help you alter the DR for your campaign. But I would protest any core changes to the rules to reflect that. Like that ever matters to WotC. :D
eggplantm 10-21-04, 10:37 AM	The DR rules never bothered me in this fact. I'd assume magic creatures to have magical attacks but creatures vulnerable to silver don't need silver attacks. Their in-fights are just really long and bloody making liberal use of power attack. It doesn't follow the logic that they need to have a method of killing their own kind, it follows the logic that very magical creatures would function as magical weapons simply because their bodies are infused with this power. Here's a real thought for you. Many demons and devils have regeneration that can only be countered by good aligned attacks. In the blood war, these never come up so how does the fighting ever stop. Also, because of the DR/good thing the fights last a long time. A Blood war battle has to last a damn eternity by necessity.
Lina_Inverse 10-21-04, 11:24 AM	I was all for the new Damage Reduction rules, involving metals like silver and adamantine more directly in combat, until I hit the following problem: monsters with DR X/special metal cannot fight their own race. For example, werewolves have DR 10/silver, making it almost impossible for one werewolf to injure another without a critical hit (which still has a chance of doing no damage) or an extended series of grapple checks. Iron golems are similarly "immune" to one another's attacks. Is there a solution for this? It seems to make little or no sense where 'fluff' is concerned and I am wary about "house-ruling" such a broad rule like Damage Reduction. no they shouldnt be able to harm eachother.the old fae legends didnt have fae that could kill eachother,or werewolves that could kill eachother.nope they needed the special materials just as much.though it couldnt hurt to give -some- monsters material attacks,adamantium being the most easy to fathom(its not that there weak to it,its that adamantium is THAT DAMN TOUGH)
green_yawgmoth 10-21-04, 02:31 PM	I also think a golem does enough damage to penetrate another golem's DR. Not certain and really don't care to look it up. Yeah Iron Golem's will bypass it on almost every hit. As will Stone golem's, Clay golem's and flesh golem's. Of course this differs if they are fighting a more powerful golem but each one easily bypasses its own. Apostrophes do not make a word plural, that make it possessive. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/eng101.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Mind Rogue 10-21-04, 02:57 PM	Apostrophes do not make a word plural, that make it possessive. I hope then that he is referring to the Iron Golem's attack and not to the Golem itself. Of course, if he wants to use the plural possesive, it should be iron golems' attacks. Don't necessarily assume that Lugnut doesn't know how to use appostrophes (although it is a possibility), but he could also be using an assumed object. Of course, my post doesn't say which he does, although Yawgmoth's does. Lugnut's just uses too many of them for us to follow easily. But do note that you understand that the subject of all three clauses is "post", even though the word only appeared in one of them, just like the word you (or you all) does not appear in most commands. (You) sit down now!
green_yawgmoth 10-22-04, 12:15 AM	He does however say "Yeah Iron Gomem's will bypass..." which sounds as if he wishes to simply make it plural, not possessive. In the case of plural possessive, the apostrophe is still making it possessive, not plural. ;) I think Mel should make a permanent announcement giving a basic outline of commonly misspelled words/misused punctuation. :D http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif