Dazing Undead and Constructs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dazing Undead and Constructs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nazrat
04-22-08, 05:24 PM Are undead and constructs immune to being dazed?

I'm asking because the spell Wings of Flurry out of Races of the Dragon causes a daze effect upon a failed reflex save, and the description for the spell doesn't mention anything about it being a mental effect. The SRD says constructs and undead are immune to being stunned, but it doesn't mention any particular immunity to being dazed. Is daze considered a stun effect?
DebiHuman
04-23-08, 01:14 AM Are undead and constructs immune to being dazed?

I'm asking because the spell Wings of Flurry out of Races of the Dragon causes a daze effect upon a failed reflex save, and the description for the spell doesn't mention anything about it being a mental effect. The SRD says constructs and undead are immune to being stunned, but it doesn't mention any particular immunity to being dazed. Is daze considered a stun effect?

This requires a little backward finagling to figure out. First, the spell daze is mind-effecting so it makes sense that dazing is also a mental effect. Daze is a seperate condition from stunning. Basically it is a weaker form of stun (or that stun is a more severe condition than daze). See here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed

I suspect that this was simply not something that comes up frequently. How often is Wings of Flurry going to be used on undead or constructs?

Debby
runestar
04-23-08, 01:40 AM There is nothing about the daze condition itself which suggests that it is mind affecting. For example, a wizard under the effects of mindblank would still be dazed after casting a spell modified by the born of 3 thunders feat.

There are some other effects which daze you as well, such as blasphemy, one of that iron heart maneuver...None of them have the mind-affecting descriptor either.

That is why dazing is so much sought after, even though its effect is strictly inferior to other status effects like stun or paralysis. It is almost impossible to make yourself immune to it save for a few very specific sources (that eberron dragon and the favoured of the martyr spell are the only 2 ways I know).:)
Nazrat
04-23-08, 02:30 AM There is nothing about the daze condition itself which suggests that it is mind affecting. For example, a wizard under the effects of mindblank would still be dazed after casting a spell modified by the born of 3 thunders feat.

There are some other effects which daze you as well, such as blasphemy, one of that iron heart maneuver...None of them have the mind-affecting descriptor either.

That is why dazing is so much sought after, even though its effect is strictly inferior to other status effects like stun or paralysis. It is almost impossible to make yourself immune to it save for a few very specific sources (that eberron dragon and the favoured of the martyr spell are the only 2 ways I know).:)

So there's nothing RAW that prevents undead or constructs from being dazed just by virtue of their type? Nice.

I suspect that this was simply not something that comes up frequently. How often is Wings of Flurry going to be used on undead or constructs?)

An uncapped, force damage area effect that's ALSO a save or suck that works just as well against undead and constructs? And its only level 4? Well I can tell you its about to be used a lot more often the next time I play.
DebiHuman
04-23-08, 02:40 AM There is nothing about the daze condition itself which suggests that it is mind affecting. For example, a wizard under the effects of mindblank would still be dazed after casting a spell modified by the born of 3 thunders feat.

There are some other effects which daze you as well, such as blasphemy, one of that iron heart maneuver...None of them have the mind-affecting descriptor either.

That is why dazing is so much sought after, even though its effect is strictly inferior to other status effects like stun or paralysis. It is almost impossible to make yourself immune to it save for a few very specific sources (that eberron dragon and the favoured of the martyr spell are the only 2 ways I know).:)

I concede. It doesn't expressly state anywhere that either condition is mind affecting. The spell Daze is mind affecting so that's where I started, but you are correct. They could just as easily be physical effects as opposed to mental ones. It wasn't mentioned in the faq or in any errata so it seems that this isn't really an issue. If it says mind affecting then it is and and if neglects to mention it, it isn't. I'd say it's pretty straight forward.

Here's the way to really figure it out. If you have to make a Will save to avoid being dazed than it would suggest that it is a mental affect. Since it is a Reflex save, it is not.

Problem solved.

Debby
runestar
04-23-08, 09:08 AM The slow spell offers a will save to negate, but is not a mind-affecting spell.:)
DebiHuman
04-24-08, 11:21 PM There can be other reasons for Will saves other than "mind affecting" but if it is "mind affecting," it should be a Will save rather than a Reflex save. One doesn't necessarily exclude the other.

Debby
Khatoblepas
04-25-08, 07:41 AM I'd rule that they aren't, otherwise you have things with Dazed as a drawback totally broken by Necropolitans and Warforged. Logically, they would be, though. :\

I'm looking at you, Celerity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nazrat 04-22-08, 05:24 PM	Are undead and constructs immune to being dazed? I'm asking because the spell Wings of Flurry out of Races of the Dragon causes a daze effect upon a failed reflex save, and the description for the spell doesn't mention anything about it being a mental effect. The SRD says constructs and undead are immune to being stunned, but it doesn't mention any particular immunity to being dazed. Is daze considered a stun effect?
DebiHuman 04-23-08, 01:14 AM	Are undead and constructs immune to being dazed? I'm asking because the spell Wings of Flurry out of Races of the Dragon causes a daze effect upon a failed reflex save, and the description for the spell doesn't mention anything about it being a mental effect. The SRD says constructs and undead are immune to being stunned, but it doesn't mention any particular immunity to being dazed. Is daze considered a stun effect? This requires a little backward finagling to figure out. First, the spell daze is mind-effecting so it makes sense that dazing is also a mental effect. Daze is a seperate condition from stunning. Basically it is a weaker form of stun (or that stun is a more severe condition than daze). See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed I suspect that this was simply not something that comes up frequently. How often is Wings of Flurry going to be used on undead or constructs? Debby
runestar 04-23-08, 01:40 AM	There is nothing about the daze condition itself which suggests that it is mind affecting. For example, a wizard under the effects of mindblank would still be dazed after casting a spell modified by the born of 3 thunders feat. There are some other effects which daze you as well, such as blasphemy, one of that iron heart maneuver...None of them have the mind-affecting descriptor either. That is why dazing is so much sought after, even though its effect is strictly inferior to other status effects like stun or paralysis. It is almost impossible to make yourself immune to it save for a few very specific sources (that eberron dragon and the favoured of the martyr spell are the only 2 ways I know).:)
Nazrat 04-23-08, 02:30 AM	There is nothing about the daze condition itself which suggests that it is mind affecting. For example, a wizard under the effects of mindblank would still be dazed after casting a spell modified by the born of 3 thunders feat. There are some other effects which daze you as well, such as blasphemy, one of that iron heart maneuver...None of them have the mind-affecting descriptor either. That is why dazing is so much sought after, even though its effect is strictly inferior to other status effects like stun or paralysis. It is almost impossible to make yourself immune to it save for a few very specific sources (that eberron dragon and the favoured of the martyr spell are the only 2 ways I know).:) So there's nothing RAW that prevents undead or constructs from being dazed just by virtue of their type? Nice. I suspect that this was simply not something that comes up frequently. How often is Wings of Flurry going to be used on undead or constructs?) An uncapped, force damage area effect that's ALSO a save or suck that works just as well against undead and constructs? And its only level 4? Well I can tell you its about to be used a lot more often the next time I play.
DebiHuman 04-23-08, 02:40 AM	There is nothing about the daze condition itself which suggests that it is mind affecting. For example, a wizard under the effects of mindblank would still be dazed after casting a spell modified by the born of 3 thunders feat. There are some other effects which daze you as well, such as blasphemy, one of that iron heart maneuver...None of them have the mind-affecting descriptor either. That is why dazing is so much sought after, even though its effect is strictly inferior to other status effects like stun or paralysis. It is almost impossible to make yourself immune to it save for a few very specific sources (that eberron dragon and the favoured of the martyr spell are the only 2 ways I know).:) I concede. It doesn't expressly state anywhere that either condition is mind affecting. The spell Daze is mind affecting so that's where I started, but you are correct. They could just as easily be physical effects as opposed to mental ones. It wasn't mentioned in the faq or in any errata so it seems that this isn't really an issue. If it says mind affecting then it is and and if neglects to mention it, it isn't. I'd say it's pretty straight forward. Here's the way to really figure it out. If you have to make a Will save to avoid being dazed than it would suggest that it is a mental affect. Since it is a Reflex save, it is not. Problem solved. Debby
runestar 04-23-08, 09:08 AM	The slow spell offers a will save to negate, but is not a mind-affecting spell.:)
DebiHuman 04-24-08, 11:21 PM	There can be other reasons for Will saves other than "mind affecting" but if it is "mind affecting," it should be a Will save rather than a Reflex save. One doesn't necessarily exclude the other. Debby
Khatoblepas 04-25-08, 07:41 AM	I'd rule that they aren't, otherwise you have things with Dazed as a drawback totally broken by Necropolitans and Warforged. Logically, they would be, though. :\ I'm looking at you, Celerity.