Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tevish Szat 02-27-04, 09:35 PM	the rules for making creatures stronger by advancment are clear cut, but what about making creatures weaker? Suppose that I want to make an Infernal (ELH) more of a CR 18-20 creature, how would i go about this. HD changes, but waht about Size, Abilities, and SLA's? What about moving an Iron Golem down to a lower CR to serve as a basic sentry machine. I know Eberron Warforged would work well in that slot, but until then, how would one tone down the golem? Moving this to a general question, what are some general guidelines for weakening a creature?
Emirikol 02-27-04, 09:40 PM	I've always used this idea and just 'winged it.' I did a Living Greyhawk scenario with a Beholder. The scenario had to be tiered for APL's 2-12. Ever seen players eyes bug out when they see a Beholder in an APL2 scenario? I just kept hacking off eyestalks until I felt it was a good opponent. The lowest APL beholder was pretty pathetic..the bite is still nazty. jh
d_nychus 02-27-04, 09:42 PM	Actually, the monster classes from Savage Species does just that.
senseiofmattitudev1 02-27-04, 09:42 PM	I don't know about "de-vancing" a creature, I'd say just throw something weaker. As far as a weaker Infernal... there should be no such thing. It's in the ELH for a reason, and I don't know if I agree with making such a badass into a CR 18-20 weakling.
Freefall 02-28-04, 01:34 AM	I agree that an Infernal shouldn't be weakened like that. The things are half-divine and extremely rare. Weakening it would kind of defeat its purpose. Just substitute it with a Balor or Pit Fiend. Likewise, a Shield Guardian could work as a toned down Iron Golem (actually, you could use a Stone Golem too, depending on the power level you want). But if you really want to, it seems like it would work in reverse of advancing them. Everytime you reduce its HD to a multiple of 3, take off a feat. Each time you reduce its HD by a multiple of 4, take off an ability point. Take it like that for any other variables. For size reduction, it might be best to just make a judgement call on that one. It's probably related to the percentage of HD you reduce it by; take off 1/3 its HD and it goes down a category, or something. Of course, in some cases this might seem like way too many HD for a single size change or maybe too few. Again, I'd just wing this one. Maybe compare it to how many HD it needs to increase a size level and apply that in reverse.
gradea 02-28-04, 11:26 AM	well, doubling HD = +1 size step in most cases, therefor halvening them brings them down a size. with an infernal you'll have to cut thier mental stats a bit too... as for making a weaker infernal...dont tell the party its an infernal, give it a new name, or you'll kill the whole experience.
Tevish Szat 02-28-04, 03:32 PM	Originally posted by gradea as for making a weaker infernal...dont tell the party its an infernal, give it a new name, or you'll kill the whole experience. that's basically what i was planning to do. The reasoning for a "weaker inferanal" was basically making a new evil creatre with the infernal as a base. Example: an infernal has a hellball SLA. the new creature has Meteor Swarm. I am only making this thing because i didn't want to use a Baatezu, Tan'ari, or Yugoloth. That ruled out the basic evil three of pit fiend, Ultraloth, and Balor... The Iron golem is a better example of actual "de-vancing"
SmoothB 03-01-04, 02:13 AM	Just tack on negative levels to make it weaker, and "positive" (opposite of a negative level) to make it stronger, on the fly. It is one of those tricks in my DM toolbag that I use.