| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| TrustTymora02-03-05, 04:28 AM | I think this little bugger is too deadly. Consider that he will be hiding with a Hide DC around 20. Most 2nd level PC's won't spot it. So choker gets surprise round. Unfortunately that means it is likely that it will finish off a member of the party. Best Case Scenerio for Choker: Avg 40 damage before PC's have had a turn. Even at a fairly bad sequence for the Choker it's 15 damage, for instance: Surprise round: Choker misses first attack, hits with second attack but fails to establish a grapple. - Avg damage 5 * remember the 2nd attack here is due to Quickness ability! Unless the PC has a +6 or higher initiative the Choker is favored to go again in round 1: Choker misses first attack again. Hits with second attack and this time does win grapple. - Avg damage 10 Anyone else think this is a little too much for a CR2? TT |
| HomebrewedMonster02-03-05, 09:57 PM | How is a choker doing 40 points with 3 attacks (with its Quickness ability), dealing 1d3+3, doing 40 points? The max would be 18. It only has an AC of 17, so a 2nd level fighter (+2 BAB, +3 Str) hits on a 12 or better and the critter only has 16 hit points. So it might survive two hits. |
| TrustTymora02-04-05, 10:30 AM | In the surprise round the Choker gets to use its Quickness ability as well. So there are 4 attacks. Each successful attack deals damage plus constrict damage. Remember however that once grappling the grapple check is at -4 for the next attacks. It is possible however that all attacks are successful dealing an average of 40 HP. For instance: Surprice rnd: Choker hits and is successful with the grapple. (10 dam) Quickness - Choker attacks again -4 and wins (10 dam) rnd1: Choker attacks at -4 and wins (10 dam) Quickness - Choker attacks at -4 and wins (10 dam) Remember that with improved grab and constrict that the damage done on a successful grapple is the damage from the attack AND the constrict damage. TT |
| Raymond_Luxury_Yacht02-04-05, 02:08 PM | In the surprise round the Choker gets to use its Quickness ability as well. So there are 4 attacks. Each successful attack deals damage plus constrict damage. Remember however that once grappling the grapple check is at -4 for the next attacks. It is possible however that all attacks are successful dealing an average of 40 HP. For instance: Surprice rnd: Choker hits and is successful with the grapple. (10 dam) Quickness - Choker attacks again -4 and wins (10 dam) rnd1: Choker attacks at -4 and wins (10 dam) Quickness - Choker attacks at -4 and wins (10 dam) Remember that with improved grab and constrict that the damage done on a successful grapple is the damage from the attack AND the constrict damage. TT It gets the constrict damage after a successful grapple check. Improved Grab only grants a grapple check if the target isn't already grappled by the choker. It gets the constrict damage once. And a DC 20 spot check is easy for a 2nd level rouge. |
| TrustTymora02-04-05, 02:29 PM | It gets the constrict damage after a successful grapple check. Improved Grab only grants a grapple check if the target isn't already grappled by the choker. It gets the constrict damage once. According to the improved grab ability "each successful grapple check it makes....." causes damage and if the creature can constrict it deals that damage as well! I'll bold it below for you: SRD: Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. This is not a choice about if the creature wants to constrict Vs attack it is a statement about creatures that if the creature does not constrict (in as does not have the constrict abilitity). If the creature does have the constrict ability then that damage is dealt as well. TT |
| HomebrewedMonster02-04-05, 06:49 PM | A chocker with a +2 to hit is not going to hit with all its attacks. A ranger or rogue with a decent wisdom (14) and max ranks in spot could see a DC 20 hide check (5 ranks + 2 modifier = +7). Their spot check has a better chance of hitting the average 2nd level character's AC with a +2. It also only has a +5 grapple check so the 2nd level wizard with no strength bonus has a +1, meaning the wizard stills has a good chance of breaking the grapple. The choker also has an intelligence of 4, which means that he does not really have the means to decern a spellcaster from a fighter. The monster is balanced, you are taking the maximum potential for the creature. The chances of achieving this are about as great as rolling two twenties in a row. You are also using the Quickness ability incorrectly, it lets him make ONE extra standard or move action, so the most attacks he can get in one round is 3, not 4. So max damage is 36. |
| Raymond_Luxury_Yacht02-04-05, 10:06 PM | According to the improved grab ability "each successful grapple check it makes....." causes damage and if the creature can constrict it deals that damage as well! And, as I said, Improved Grab allows it to start a grapple. You can't start a grapple if you're already grappling someone. You're using the rules horribly, horribly wrong. |
| TrustTymora02-04-05, 11:18 PM | And, as I said, Improved Grab allows it to start a grapple. You can't start a grapple if you're already grappling someone. You're using the rules horribly, horribly wrong. Yes, you did say that and I have already posted the official improved grapple description from the SRD for you that explains what a creature with the improved grab ability does on each successful grapple check or do you just want to make something up... lets see something like.... It gets the constrict damage after a successful grapple check. Improved Grab only grants a grapple check if the target isn't already grappled by the choker. It gets the constrict damage once. Hey play it however you want. But as a last attempt I'll bold it once again for you: Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. I'm not sure which part about each successful grapple check automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold you don't understand. TT |
| TrustTymora02-04-05, 11:30 PM | A chocker with a +2 to hit is not going to hit with all its attacks. A ranger or rogue with a decent wisdom (14) and max ranks in spot could see a DC 20 hide check (5 ranks + 2 modifier = +7). Their spot check has a better chance of hitting the average 2nd level character's AC with a +2. It also only has a +5 grapple check so the 2nd level wizard with no strength bonus has a +1, meaning the wizard stills has a good chance of breaking the grapple. The choker also has an intelligence of 4, which means that he does not really have the means to decern a spellcaster from a fighter. The monster is balanced, you are taking the maximum potential for the creature. The chances of achieving this are about as great as rolling two twenties in a row. You are also using the Quickness ability incorrectly, it lets him make ONE extra standard or move action, so the most attacks he can get in one round is 3, not 4. So max damage is 36. I agree the it is not likely that it would hit on all attacks my point was only that it was possible. I don't think I'm using the Quickness abililty incorrectly in the example given. Surprise rnd he would get one standard action and then another standard action for Quickness. This is 2 attacks in the surprise rnd. In rnd 1 there would be 1 attack and then and additional 1 attack for Quickness. This totals 4 attacks. IF the creature won initiative then it would be 4 attacks before the PC had a chance to react. In fact in re-reading improved grab I don't believe there would be a -4 penalty since the ability simply says on a successful grapple check so I would like to take that out of my earlier post. There is no -4 penalty for creatures with the improved grapple ability. |
| HomebrewedMonster02-05-05, 01:37 AM | I agree the it is not likely that it would hit on all attacks my point was only that it was possible. I don't think I'm using the Quickness abililty incorrectly in the example given. Surprise rnd he would get one standard action and then another standard action for Quickness. This is 2 attacks in the surprise rnd. In rnd 1 there would be 1 attack and then and additional 1 attack for Quickness. This totals 4 attacks. IF the creature won initiative then it would be 4 attacks before the PC had a chance to react. In fact in re-reading improved grab I don't believe there would be a -4 penalty since the ability simply says on a successful grapple check so I would like to take that out of my earlier post. There is no -4 penalty for creatures with the improved grapple ability. That's a lot of "If's". Wrong, a creature attacking with a natural weapon, improved grab or not, it even states, "The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks...." Go to the grapple section of the PHB, "You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks." So, you do suffer the -4 penalty. And like I said before, minus all the math, the choker is not intelligent enough to attack a single target; he can barrly understand speech. |
| TrustTymora02-05-05, 02:01 AM | Wrong, a creature attacking with a natural weapon, improved grab or not, it even states, "The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks...." Actually the -20 option is for something totally different and I doubt that any of the weaker creatures would try using it. Play it however you like. I'm done explaining it. Sorry don't mean to be rude but i was making the point that the creature with the improved grab ability does not need to make a natural attack option at -4 because the ability simply allows a successful grapple check to deal the damage. It is part of the ability as described in the SRD. TT |
| Raymond_Luxury_Yacht02-07-05, 09:01 PM | Actually the -20 option is for something totally different and I doubt that any of the weaker creatures would try using it. Play it however you like. I'm done explaining it. Sorry don't mean to be rude but i was making the point that the creature with the improved grab ability does not need to make a natural attack option at -4 because the ability simply allows a successful grapple check to deal the damage. It is part of the ability as described in the SRD. TT And as I pointed out 2 sodding times, the Improved Grab ability allows it to start a grapple, which you can't do if you're grappling. |
| HomebrewedMonster02-07-05, 09:41 PM | Actually the -20 option is for something totally different and I doubt that any of the weaker creatures would try using it. Play it however you like. I'm done explaining it. Sorry don't mean to be rude but i was making the point that the creature with the improved grab ability does not need to make a natural attack option at -4 because the ability simply allows a successful grapple check to deal the damage. It is part of the ability as described in the SRD. TT Where does it say that exactly, I read what you posted and it says no such thing. |
| Slagger the Chuul02-08-05, 04:12 AM | I believe the situation works like this: 1. In the surprise round, the choker makes a successful attack, allowing an Improved Grab. 2. The choker wins the opposed grapple check and deals extra Constrict damage (in addition to the damage dealt by its original attack), dealing a total of 2d3+6 damage. 3. The choker (still grappling) uses the extra action granted by Quickness to make another grapple check and deal another 2d3+6 damage. 4. After the suprise round, the choker (still grappling) uses its normal attack to grapple and deal 2d3+6 damage. 5. The choker (still grappling) uses the extra action granted by Quickness to make another grapple check and deal another 2d3+6 damage. Actions from step 3 use the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple option, rather than the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple option. Using DYO instead of AYO means that it uses a grapple check instead of an attack roll, and can thus apply its Constrict ability. The choker does not need to use Improved Grab to constrict; it merely need to make a successful grapple check; Constrict damage applies every time it makes a successful grapple check (but not when it's resisting another creature's grapple check). Improved Grab simply allows it to start its grapple with a regular attack. The Quickness ability allows it to take an extra standard action or move action, which it can use while grappling to make an extra grapple check and (if successful) to deal extra damage with Constrict. |
| Kitsuna02-08-05, 04:20 AM | And that, all totalled up is 8d3+24, which is a minimum 32 and a maximum of 48..... so that makes a nice medium of 40, which the original poster said was about average, which makes it correct. So scarily enough, said choker can waste one person (Leader of the party most likely due to low intelligence) and then be annhilated by the rest of the party when they have their actions, if there are any more, it can be more troublesome. ((Seeing as the leader might be the fighter or the rogue)) |
| Ogre4Hire02-08-05, 11:35 AM | Yeah, but what's the grapple bonus on this thing, anyway? It's a small Abberation with 2(?) HD and a strength of 14-15. That works out (barring any racial bonuses) to be a -1(+1BAB, +2 STR, -4 Size). Even if it had a +4 Racial Bonus, it still works out to a +3, so unless it got a halfling or a gnome, it's really not likely to establish a hold very often. |
| TrustTymora02-08-05, 05:51 PM | Where does it say that exactly, I read what you posted and it says no such thing. Assuming that your talking about not taking a -4 penalty. The reasoning is thus: When grappling the creature can do several options one of which is "Damage your opponent". When a creature chooses this option each grapple check deals damage (non-leathal Vs leathal for creatures with natural weapons is still debated). The improved grab tells you the damage so you need not concern yourself with the leathal Vs non-leathal debate since the ability itself describes what damage to apply. If the creature does not constrict (as in does not have the constrict special attack) then you apply the damage from the original weapon that started the improved grab. Otherwise (creature has constrict), you apply the constrict special attack damage as well (or in addition to). I have added the ( ) in order to help clarify it for you. Any questions? Slagger the Chuul - By the way since the choker gets 2 attacks on a full attack that means the following: Suprise round: 1 attack and 1 attack for Quickness Rnd 1: 2 attacks and then 1 attack for Quickness Basically in step 4 of your post the choker gets 2 grapple attempts and then uses its Quickness ability for 1 additional attempt. This actually adds up to 5 attacks and not 4 as originally posted. Raymond_Luxury_Yacht - of course it allows you to start a grapple and then once grappling it explains exactly how to apply damage. Please tell me exactly what you don't understand about the ability? You seem stuck at the part about starting a grapple. Read past that point and find out what happens on each successful grapple check once a creature with this ability is grappling with you. This ability is not just about starting a grapple it is about making creatures with it more effective grapplers. TT |
| TrustTymora02-08-05, 05:57 PM | Yeah, but what's the grapple bonus on this thing, anyway? It's a small Abberation with 2(?) HD and a strength of 14-15. That works out (barring any racial bonuses) to be a -1(+1BAB, +2 STR, -4 Size). Even if it had a +4 Racial Bonus, it still works out to a +3, so unless it got a halfling or a gnome, it's really not likely to establish a hold very often. Grapples at +5 which is pretty good. Better hope that it was a fighter with improved grapple that was picked off. CHOKER Small Aberration Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 10 ft. Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5 Attack: Tentacle +6 melee (1d3+3) Full Attack: 2 tentacles +6 melee (1d3+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Improved grab, constrict 1d3+3 Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., quickness Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +4 Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 7 Skills: Climb +13, Hide +10, Move Silently +6 Feats: Improved InitiativeB, Lightning Reflexes, Stealthy Environment: Underground Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 2 Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items Alignment: Usually chaotic evil Advancement: 4–6 HD (Small); 7–12 HD (Medium) Level Adjustment: — |
| Slagger the Chuul02-09-05, 12:24 AM | Slagger the Chuul - By the way since the choker gets 2 attacks on a full attack that means the following: Suprise round: 1 attack and 1 attack for Quickness Rnd 1: 2 attacks and then 1 attack for Quickness Basically in step 4 of your post the choker gets 2 grapple attempts and then uses its Quickness ability for 1 additional attempt. This actually adds up to 5 attacks and not 4 as originally posted. I'd probably use the 5 attacks in any game I was running, but since the details on the grapple checks only refer to extra grapple checks from high BAB (Quickness is an extra ability deserving its own consideration) when you would normally get extra attacks, I erred on the side of caution. |
| TrustTymora02-09-05, 01:28 AM | I'd probably use the 5 attacks in any game I was running, but since the details on the grapple checks only refer to extra grapple checks from high BAB (Quickness is an extra ability deserving its own consideration) when you would normally get extra attacks, I erred on the side of caution. I actually just over looked it originally but it's clear from the "Natural Weapons" description in the MM that creatures with natural weapons receive additional attacks according to the individual monster description. For creatures that have no natural weapons (i.e. make use of manufactured weapons) I would determine the number of grapple attempts based on the base attack bonus. As a side note - if you read the "Constrict" and "Improved Grab" literally then it is even more deadly as the damage is done on "any successful grapple check"! Not just the creatures turn!! TT |
| HomebrewedMonster02-09-05, 03:17 AM | Grapples at +5 which is pretty good. Better hope that it was a fighter with improved grapple that was picked off. Ok, well now that the uber constricting chocker has been established, I still don't think he'll be able to get all five attacks off. 2nd level fighter will probably have the same grapple check, which means it comes down to the dice rolls. Still, point proven, it can be dangerous. As a DM I still can rely on my players making better rolls than me and whooping his a$$. |
| HomebrewedMonster02-09-05, 03:18 AM | O and a sidenote, what about a CR 3 chocker? A choker with a level of rogue. :D |