Deathbringer Underpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Deathbringer Underpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Singer_of_the_Song
02-21-07, 06:05 PM I recently used the Deathbringer (from Monster Manual II) a great deal in one of my adventures. It seemed, however, to be much less power than a CR 17 creature should be. Anyone have similar thoughts?
dok
02-21-07, 08:17 PM A great many of the creatures in the MM2 have problems with CR. Most (if not all) of the higher CR monsters are woefully underpowered and questionably written besides.

If you use the Deathbringer's 3.5 stats (found in the update guide) he gets a little better, for having Improved Sunder, Combat Reflexes, and Two Weapon Defense. The damage also goes up to 2d6 under 3.5 rules, so that's a small gain. Tactics-wise, it's got a decent chance to Sunder (+24 against medium creatures dealing 2d6+9 or 2d6+6 damage) as well as an OK chance to Disarm. (+22 against medium creatures thanks to the Flail; best if used with Reach to prevent an AoO) Fighting defensively gives it a -3 penalty but increases it's AC by +3.

That said, yes, he's weak. No SR, no energy immunities, and a touch AC of 10 means most spellcasters will demolish its hit points rather quickly. While it's got a few neat special attacks, they aren't well scaled for its level; the greater dispelling burst is great to lead a fight off with, but the negative burst is too weak to count for much at that level, either as healing or offense.
Morrowner
02-21-07, 08:26 PM Give it the feat Death's Blessing or just rule that it gets Ex:Unholy Toughness. Adding charisma modifiers to undead HP is HUGE.
Singer_of_the_Song
02-21-07, 10:06 PM A great many of the creatures in the MM2 have problems with CR. Most (if not all) of the higher CR monsters are woefully underpowered and questionably written besides.

What do you mean by "questionably written?"
runestar
02-21-07, 11:44 PM It implies little or no playtesting...:P
dok
02-22-07, 12:02 AM Monsters whose abilities don't seem to work correctly (Great Fihyr) or creatures paired together with incompatable CRs (Orcwort) or creatures whose flavor text doesn't match the game mechanics (the not-intangible Ragewind). Those are just a few examples, but there are plenty more in the book.
runestar
02-22-07, 03:18 AM The adamantine horror seems to get mentioned quite a bit. supposedly, it is helpless if you throw a tanglefoot bag at it, and a TPK if you don't...:D
runestar
02-22-07, 08:53 AM Unholy toughness will not work since it has a cha score of only 7.
Improved toughness gives it an extra 30hp.
I would probably swap out great cleave(almost useless for npcs) and weapon focus(benefit too marginal), and replace them with quicken SLA: greater dispelling and improved toughness.

However, its stats seem quite weak for a cr17, since its 30 undead HD gives it only bab+15, and with a crap str score of just 20...Plus, it has no treasure to take advantage of. Cr14-15 seems more apt.

Maybe give it magical fullplate and weapons? Perhaps some magic gear as well? A skillful weapon's benefit will be very significant as it boosts its bab from +15 to +22. Or allow it to access divine power somehow. And I think its str can be improved to 30. Dr/magic silver could help a little.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Singer_of_the_Song 02-21-07, 06:05 PM	I recently used the Deathbringer (from Monster Manual II) a great deal in one of my adventures. It seemed, however, to be much less power than a CR 17 creature should be. Anyone have similar thoughts?
dok 02-21-07, 08:17 PM	A great many of the creatures in the MM2 have problems with CR. Most (if not all) of the higher CR monsters are woefully underpowered and questionably written besides. If you use the Deathbringer's 3.5 stats (found in the update guide) he gets a little better, for having Improved Sunder, Combat Reflexes, and Two Weapon Defense. The damage also goes up to 2d6 under 3.5 rules, so that's a small gain. Tactics-wise, it's got a decent chance to Sunder (+24 against medium creatures dealing 2d6+9 or 2d6+6 damage) as well as an OK chance to Disarm. (+22 against medium creatures thanks to the Flail; best if used with Reach to prevent an AoO) Fighting defensively gives it a -3 penalty but increases it's AC by +3. That said, yes, he's weak. No SR, no energy immunities, and a touch AC of 10 means most spellcasters will demolish its hit points rather quickly. While it's got a few neat special attacks, they aren't well scaled for its level; the greater dispelling burst is great to lead a fight off with, but the negative burst is too weak to count for much at that level, either as healing or offense.
Morrowner 02-21-07, 08:26 PM	Give it the feat Death's Blessing or just rule that it gets Ex:Unholy Toughness. Adding charisma modifiers to undead HP is HUGE.
Singer_of_the_Song 02-21-07, 10:06 PM	A great many of the creatures in the MM2 have problems with CR. Most (if not all) of the higher CR monsters are woefully underpowered and questionably written besides. What do you mean by "questionably written?"
runestar 02-21-07, 11:44 PM	It implies little or no playtesting...:P
dok 02-22-07, 12:02 AM	Monsters whose abilities don't seem to work correctly (Great Fihyr) or creatures paired together with incompatable CRs (Orcwort) or creatures whose flavor text doesn't match the game mechanics (the not-intangible Ragewind). Those are just a few examples, but there are plenty more in the book.
runestar 02-22-07, 03:18 AM	The adamantine horror seems to get mentioned quite a bit. supposedly, it is helpless if you throw a tanglefoot bag at it, and a TPK if you don't...:D
runestar 02-22-07, 08:53 AM	Unholy toughness will not work since it has a cha score of only 7. Improved toughness gives it an extra 30hp. I would probably swap out great cleave(almost useless for npcs) and weapon focus(benefit too marginal), and replace them with quicken SLA: greater dispelling and improved toughness. However, its stats seem quite weak for a cr17, since its 30 undead HD gives it only bab+15, and with a crap str score of just 20...Plus, it has no treasure to take advantage of. Cr14-15 seems more apt. Maybe give it magical fullplate and weapons? Perhaps some magic gear as well? A skillful weapon's benefit will be very significant as it boosts its bab from +15 to +22. Or allow it to access divine power somehow. And I think its str can be improved to 30. Dr/magic silver could help a little.