Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RecycledDM 05-17-06, 11:21 AM	New to the boards, so I hope that I am using the term "PEACH" correctly and that this is the correct forum... I am developing an acquired undead template called the Deathcheater. It is meant to be a "lich lite" / "zombie master" type foe, who is created through "potent alchemical means" (whatever that may be). (Confession: The template below was heavily and blatantly ripped off from the lich template) 1) Is this concept sound? 2) Has this name been used before in any published D&D stuff (would be hard for me to believe it hasn't)? 3) My concept is that one would have to brew up a gonzo alchemical elixir--I hesitate to call it a "potion"--to make this happen; what DC would you assign to the Craft (alchemy) for something like this? Alternatively, how else could alchemy (perhaps in combination with arcane wizardry) be used for this? 4) I am considering adding regeneration, so as to make this guy even more of a "cheater of death"...good idea? 5) All other constructive comments welcomed! ==================== Deathcheater A deathcheater is an undead humanoid creature, who has undertaken to unnaturally extend its life through potent alchemical means (e.g., a DC ?? alchemical potion craft skill check to create the deathcheater elixir). Nothing short of a limited wish, wish, or miracle can undo the effects of imbibing the elixir. After death, the creature will rise in 2d4 days as a deathcheater. A deathcheater appears much as it did in life, though more gaunt and skeletal, and with an ashen, grayish skin tone. Its gray, glassy eyes are sunken into darkened sockets. Deatchcheaters speak Common plus any other languages they knew in life. Creating A Deathcheater "Deatchcheater" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create (or obtain) the required alchemical formulations. A deathcheater has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Size and Type The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged. Hit Dice Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s. Armor Class A deathcheater has a +2 natural armor bonus or the base creature’s natural armor bonus, whichever is better. Attack A deathcheater retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn’t already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the deathcheater retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A deathcheater fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A deathcheater armed with a weapon uses its slam or a weapon, as it desires. Full Attack A deatchcheater fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack. Damage Deatcheaters have slam attacks. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the appropriate damage value from the table below according to the deatcheater’s size. Creatures that have other kinds of natural weapons retain their old damage values or use the appropriate value from the table below, whichever is better. Size Damage Fine 1 Diminutive 1d2 Tiny 1d3 Small 1d4 Medium 1d6 Large 1d8 Huge 2d6 Gargantuan 2d8 Colossal 4d6 Special Attacks A deathcheater retains all the base creature’s special attacks and gains those described below. Save DCs are equal to 10 + ½ deathcheater’s HD + deathcheater’s Cha modifier unless otherwise noted. Energy Drain (Su) Living creatures hit by a deathcheater’s slam attack gain one negative level. The victim must make a Fortitude save to remove a negative level. For each such negative level bestowed, the deathcheater gains 5 temporary hit points. Create Spawn (Su) Creatures killed by a deathcheater rise after 1d4 days as zombies under the deathcheater’s control. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life. Spells A deathcheater can cast any spells it could cast while alive. Special Qualities A deathcheater retains all the base creature’s special qualities and gains those described below. Turn Resistance (Ex) A deathcheater has +2 turn resistance. Damage Reduction (Su) A deathcheater has damage reduction 5/silver and magic. A deathcheater’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Spell-Like Abilities 3/day—animate dead. Caster level 5th or the deathcheater’s own divine caster level, whichever is greater. Abilities Increase from the base creature as follows: Int +1, Wis +1, Cha +1. Being undead, a deathcheater has no Constitution score. Skills Deathcheaters have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature. Organization Solitary or troupe (1 deathcheater, plus 5d6 HD worth of zombies or skeletons). Challenge Rating Same as the base creature + 1. Treasure Standard coins; double goods; double items. Alignment Any evil (usually neutral evil). Advancement By character class. Level Adjustment Same as the base creature +2. Deathcheater Characters The process of becoming a deathcheater can be undertaken only by a willing character. A deathcheater retains all class abilities it had in life. A deathcheater is not nearly as powerful as other intelligent undead (liches, vampires, etc.), and does not require any special device to store its life force (phylactery) nor are any special procedures required to definitively kill the deathcheater.
Talisman 05-17-06, 01:56 PM	Interesting idea. 1) Is this concept sound? Absolutely! 2) Has this name been used before in any published D&D stuff (would be hard for me to believe it hasn't)? If so, I haven't read it. 3) My concept is that one would have to brew up a gonzo alchemical elixir--I hesitate to call it a "potion"--to make this happen; what DC would you assign to the Craft (alchemy) for something like this? Alternatively, how else could alchemy (perhaps in combination with arcane wizardry) be used for this? Alchemy DC should be 30-35 minimum (sounds high, but remember the "take 10/take 20" rules). If you combine it with standard spellcasting, use the Brew Potion/Craft Wondrous Item rules, figure out what spells you need, and base it on the highest. Steal liberally from lich. 4) I am considering adding regeneration, so as to make this guy even more of a "cheater of death"...good idea? Regeneration converts damage into nonlethal damage...which undead are immune to. Go with fast healing. Spell-Like Abilities 3/day—animate dead. Caster level 5th or the deathcheater’s own divine caster level, whichever is greater. Maybe caster level equal to deathcheater's HD? Since this is an innate, "racial" ability, it shouldn't be tied to levels in a particular class. Besides, I love the idea of a deathcheather warlord with an army of undead followers. Abilities Increase from the base creature as follows: Int +1, Wis +1, Cha +1. Being undead, a deathcheater has no Constitution score. Never give anyone an odd-numbered ability increase; it has no effect 50% of the time. Change these to +2's. Level Adjustment Same as the base creature +2. LA should be +3 or +4 (+1 undead type, +1 DR, +1 energy drain, +1 ability bonuses).
RecycledDM 05-17-06, 05:17 PM	Talisman, I appreciate the constructive feedback. As for a straight DC for Craft (alchemy), 30 to 35 doesn't sound high at all. In fact, I was thinking more along the lines of an epic DC like 60+, since it takes a DC 45 just to make an augmented sunrod or augmented tanglefoot bag! However, looking more closely at the lich's phylactery construction requirements and your idea of a brew potion/craft wondrous item feat pathway, I think I could develop something reasonably within the rules that wouldn't require a 20+ level wizard/master alchemist/Hell's Angel to accomplish. I'm now thinking that the "elixir" would be something any respectable 9th level arcane caster with decent alchemy skill and both of the above mentioned feats could make...and the drinker could make a FORT save to avoid IF he were to "accidentally" imbibe it (though a willing imbiber could, I will assume, willingly fail the save). Point taken on regeneration. Fast healing (like in a vampire) sounds better suited. Also, I like the idea of animate dead caster level tied to HD instead of divine caster level...the NPC I want to apply this template to is already a straight cleric, so I was kind of interchanging the two in my mind. Might still make it read: "caster level 5 or the deathcheater's HD, whichever is greater." The warlord with undead army is exactly what I'm envisioning here...applying this template to a cleric just makes it even MORE potent! Good idea on the ability increases; I just took the lich numbers and halved them ("lich lite" concept). +2's sound more practical. With the tweaks, LA of +4 sounds perhaps right. This template has become not so much "lich lite" as a "different kind of" lich--or, if you prefer, "more intensively focused on raising undead armies and laying waste to entire villages to further a plotline in my campaign world" lich.
dok 05-17-06, 08:26 PM	New to the boards, so I hope that I am using the term "PEACH" correctly and that this is the correct forum... PEACH is a request for honest examination and critique. And this is the right forum. I am developing an acquired undead template called the Deathcheater. It is meant to be a "lich lite" / "zombie master" type foe, who is created through "potent alchemical means" (whatever that may be). (Confession: The template below was heavily and blatantly ripped off from the lich template) 1) Is this concept sound? The concept seems a little shallow, to be honest. "Lich lite" isn't much of a concept to go from; it's meant to be smarter than a Zombie, but that's what the Corpse Creature template (BoVD) is for. Since it uses 'potent alchemical means', I guess it's meant for spellcasters, (since nonspellcasters can't use Alchemy in 3.5) but I'm not sure why. I'm not clear on where this template fits in as 'unique'. With Mummified Creature, Wight, Gravetouched Ghoul, Corpse, Bone, and Lich templates already in existence, plus the Necropolitan race, I'm just not sure how or why a "lich lite" template is needed. Factor in the Dread Necromancer class (HoH) that slowly becomes a lich, and I'm really having trouble finding a need for this... If I want a powerful undead spellcaster, I've got the lich template. Less powerful? I could use any number of intellgent undead (vampires, Ghouls, ghasts, mhorgs, wights, wraiths, spectres) and add levels in a spellcasting class. Or I could simply take a basic spellcaster (cleric, wizard, clr/wiz/True Necormancer) and apply the Necropolitan, Corpse, or Bone creature templates. 3) My concept is that one would have to brew up a gonzo alchemical elixir--I hesitate to call it a "potion"--to make this happen; what DC would you assign to the Craft (alchemy) for something like this? Alternatively, how else could alchemy (perhaps in combination with arcane wizardry) be used for this? Consider building an Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) that requires both Alchemy checks, along with other skills like maybe Knowledge (religion). Energy Drain (Su) Living creatures hit by a deathcheater’s slam attack gain one negative level. The victim must make a Fortitude save to remove a negative level. For each such negative level bestowed, the deathcheater gains 5 temporary hit points. Create Spawn (Su) Creatures killed by a deathcheater rise after 1d4 days as zombies under the deathcheater’s control. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life. Here's what I mean about the Lich and its magical origins, and what happens when you remove that and don't replace it with flavor text of equal or greater value. How does an alchemical elixier make you a conduit for negative energy? Not every undead has Energy Drain, and it's hard to say why this one should, from a flavor text perspective. Likewise, the Create Spawn has a supernatural element that's missing here. It's especially odd considering the creautre has a daily use of animate dead... I'd rather see a Create Zombie ability, that lets the creature create new zombies from recently deceased corpses. Base it off of raise dead Spawn Zombies: (Su) the Death-Cheater can animate any corpse with up to double the Death-Cheater's HD as a zombie, provided that creature died within one day per HD of the Death-Cheater; this takes 10 minutes, and the Death-Cheater may control up to four times it's HD in zombies. Skills Deathcheaters have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature. Why? I know it's based off the lich template, but I want to know why this now-dead creature suddenly has sharper senses, is more stealthy, and is better at understanding the living than when it was alive.
RecycledDM 05-18-06, 01:23 AM	The concept seems a little shallow, to be honest. "Lich lite" isn't much of a concept to go from; it's meant to be smarter than a Zombie, but that's what the Corpse Creature template (BoVD) is for. Since it uses 'potent alchemical means', I guess it's meant for spellcasters, (since nonspellcasters can't use Alchemy in 3.5) but I'm not sure why. I'm not clear on where this template fits in as 'unique'. With Mummified Creature, Wight, Gravetouched Ghoul, Corpse, Bone, and Lich templates already in existence, plus the Necropolitan race, I'm just not sure how or why a "lich lite" template is needed. Factor in the Dread Necromancer class (HoH) that slowly becomes a lich, and I'm really having trouble finding a need for this... If I want a powerful undead spellcaster, I've got the lich template. Less powerful? I could use any number of intellgent undead (vampires, Ghouls, ghasts, mhorgs, wights, wraiths, spectres) and add levels in a spellcasting class. Or I could simply take a basic spellcaster (cleric, wizard, clr/wiz/True Necormancer) and apply the Necropolitan, Corpse, or Bone creature templates. To be honest, I am quite new to 3.5ed, not having played or DM'd since about 1990. I only have the core books and the Draconomicon. Some quick web searching suggests that either the Corpse Creature or the Necropolitan templates--over an evil cleric--just might be all I really need. How are Corpse Creatures "made" (differently from typical zombies)? How are Necropolitans "made"? Could either NPC continue to level? I considered vampire and lich, but they are way more powerful than what I seek. The other intelligent undead you mention seem PHYSICALLY powerful, but don't strike me as the highly intelligent (though only moderately strong) mastermind/villain/undead army leader type I am looking for. Consider building an Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) that requires both Alchemy checks, along with other skills like maybe Knowledge (religion). I'd really rather it be EITHER a purely "evil cleric" OR a purely "alchemical" thing (not both) in order to fit the story I'm trying to tell in the campaign. The more I think about it, if this is something a 5th to 7th level cleric could do TO himself, ALL BY himself, it would fit the campaign even better... Here's what I mean about the Lich and its magical origins, and what happens when you remove that and don't replace it with flavor text of equal or greater value. How does an alchemical elixier make you a conduit for negative energy? Not every undead has Energy Drain, and it's hard to say why this one should, from a flavor text perspective. I could actually see this guy doing without the energy drain...it is not really crucial to what I'm trying to do. But I could certainly see certain spells being "thrown into" the brew that could allow for virtually any of the abilities useable by undead to be manifested in the imbiber. Likewise, the Create Spawn has a supernatural element that's missing here. It's especially odd considering the creautre has a daily use of animate dead... I'd rather see a Create Zombie ability, that lets the creature create new zombies from recently deceased corpses. Base it off of raise dead Spawn Zombies: (Su) the Death-Cheater can animate any corpse with up to double the Death-Cheater's HD as a zombie, provided that creature died within one day per HD of the Death-Cheater; this takes 10 minutes, and the Death-Cheater may control up to four times it's HD in zombies. Something like the create zombie ability you suggest--in lieu of both the spell-like animate dead ability and create spawn--seems fine to me. I really just want a smart--but not TOO strong--undead guy who can pump out and control zombies! Why? I know it's based off the lich template, but I want to know why this now-dead creature suddenly has sharper senses, is more stealthy, and is better at understanding the living than when it was alive. I just kinda threw in the skill modifiers because both lich and vampire have them. Not too original, I know. I'm starting to think I need to find out more about Corpse Creature and Necropolitan templates and keep it simple.
Talisman 05-18-06, 05:42 PM	As for a straight DC for Craft (alchemy), 30 to 35 doesn't sound high at all. In fact, I was thinking more along the lines of an epic DC like 60+, since it takes a DC 45 just to make an augmented sunrod or augmented tanglefoot bag! However, looking more closely at the lich's phylactery construction requirements and your idea of a brew potion/craft wondrous item feat pathway, I think I could develop something reasonably within the rules that wouldn't require a 20+ level wizard/master alchemist/Hell's Angel to accomplish. I'm now thinking that the "elixir" would be something any respectable 9th level arcane caster with decent alchemy skill and both of the above mentioned feats could make...and the drinker could make a FORT save to avoid IF he were to "accidentally" imbibe it (though a willing imbiber could, I will assume, willingly fail the save). Ah, the Hell's Angel prestige class :P Very similar to the "Whatsis" class a friend once took. You can always choose to fail a saving throw unless the ability in question specifies otherwise. And if you want to restrict this to the bad guys without making it ridiculous, add "evil" ingredients. You know, blood of a unicorn, brains of an elf, heart of an innocent...the things that tick off paladins.