Deathless Zombies? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Deathless Zombies? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Coridan
03-04-07, 01:54 AM Is there an equivalent monster out there that would be a zombie/skeleton template but Deathless based? I was looking at Corpse Creature but they wouldn't be appropriate for Animate Dead (well, a version of Animate Dead that created Deathless instead).
Domriso
03-04-07, 02:02 AM Off the top of my head, i can't think of anywhere that there might be one, but if you just change a zombie's type to deathless and apply the appropriate changes it should work fine.
Coridan
03-04-07, 02:18 AM I've thought of that, though the single actions only doesn't seem too fitting. Would it need to be adjusted to remove that? Then again comparing the skeleton to the zombie the only real reason to summon a zombie is if you're fighting something that bashes.
Domriso
03-04-07, 01:13 PM Then just get rid of the single actions. The only reason they have that is to make them be the shambling creatures from the movies, and newer movies are starting to make them faster.
Coridan
03-04-07, 01:15 PM Embody Soul gives a dead creature a second chance to make good for all his sins. It works as Animate Dead except uses the Deathless Soul template located below. It can not be used on creatures who have (or had depending on how you want to look at it) the Pure Soul feat.

I might get my group to houserule research costs because 1000 x spell level is just cruel to casters when there's no guarantee to success and the spell still has to be balanced against the other spells. Regardless here's what I've come up for it.

Size and Type: The creature's type changes to Deathless, it retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind. It uses all the base creatures statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 HD it can't be made into a Deathless Soul with the Embody Soul spell.

Speed: Use the base creature's speed

Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the soul's size: Tiny or Smaller +0, Small +1, Medium/Large +2, Huge +3, Gargantuan +6, Colossal +10

Attacks: A deathless soul retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. It also gains a slam attack.

Damage: As the zombie chart, Medium is 1d6, scales by size based on that

Special Attacks[/B}A Deathless Soul retains none of the base creatures special attacks.

[B]Special Qualities: A Deathless soul loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A deathless soul gains Damage Reduction 5/Slashing.

Abilities A Deathless Soul has no Constitution or Intelligence Score, it gains +2 CHA

Saves F 1/3HD, R 1/3HD, W1/2HD+2

Feats Loses all feats of the base creature and gains Toughness.

Size/Type: Large Deathless
Hit Dice: 4d12+3
Initiative: +3
Speed: 60 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+3 Dex, -1 Size, +8 Natural
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+7
Attack: Horn +9 Melee (1d8+8) or Slam +6 Melee (1d8+5)
Full Attack: Horn +8 (1d8+8) and two hooves +1 (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 feet
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +7, Will +9
Abilities: STR 20 DEX 17 CON - INT - WIS 21 CHA 26
Skills:
Feats: Toughness
CR: 2
Domriso
03-04-07, 01:19 PM Is that a real spell or one you have created? Either way it creates a deathless zombie that has the single move actions only ability removed. It's pretty nice at that.
Coridan
03-04-07, 01:21 PM It's one I've created, along with Summon Deathless 1-5 (The Unicorn would be the Summon Deathless 2). As soon as it's all fleshed out I'll probably post the spells and their creatures on the spells board.
Domriso
03-04-07, 01:24 PM It is pretty good. I never really liked having the single-move actions only thing. I just made them really slow and still. so you might think its a corpse and then it grabs your arm and bites down. :D My players didn't like that.
Naderion
03-04-07, 02:31 PM Zombies are slow, because they are just rotting corpses. As undead are associated with evil, deathless are often their good equivalent and it just can never be really a good thing to force people to walk the world with a carcass for a body and barly sentient.

I think what you want is just a plain and simple deathless with no fantastic abilities. I'd say take just create a 1 HD deathless with no special abilities and you got it.
Domriso
03-04-07, 02:38 PM See i disagree. Animating a corpse is only evil if you intend to use towards evil. But anyone that believes that a corpse is "Sacred" would vehemently disagree with me, so we'll leave it at that.
Naderion
03-04-07, 02:50 PM Animating a coprse becomes evil if you are using the corpse of a person who does not want it to be used like that, even if he has really no use for it. Not the necromancy is evil there, but the act of ignoring other peoples wishes.
Domriso
03-04-07, 03:02 PM But only if they explicitly don't wish for their corpse to be used. Most won't care, being in the afterlife and having a good time. Only those who believe that their corpse is really all that will care. Unless they have a specific purpose in mind.
Coridan
03-04-07, 04:27 PM I wouldn't see it as any more good/evil than yanking an Avoral from the outer planes and making it fight for you for a few rounds with Summon Monster VII.

Your basically just imbuing the dead creature with one of the souls that have become mindless energy aspects of the celestial planes (as most of the dead become)
xver
03-05-07, 06:14 PM This is a nice idea (if you like Deathless, I'm not so sure how I feel about them), but I have a couple of caveats. Firstly, there should be a Skeleton based option also. I like Skeletons more for some reason. It's not really about powers or anything, it's a simple matter of asthetics.

Secondly, while I'm sure many will argue with me, I have a hard time seeing the reanimation of a sentient creature into a mindless automaton as a Good act. Perhaps the spell should seek permission of the body's soul in a manner similar to Raise Dead and company.

In this way, if they are truely enjoying their afterlife and don't mind you putting their corpse to good use, you will be able to, but not if they object. After all, only some of the outer planes are a nice place to be a petitioner. If they're happily leading the good life in Celestia, pehaps they don't care. On the other tentacle, if they're being tormented in the Abyss, perhaps they wish to hold out for a ressurection, however unlikely it may be.

To make up for the fact that you can't be sure the spell will work, pehaps it could be done in such a way that it only consumes the material componant if the spell works. On that note, the material componant should be changed from a black onyx to some other gemstone. I suggest white onyx.
lord_zack
03-05-07, 06:33 PM I have a Deathless-version of zombies. Intead of being rotting corpses they're intact but glow with positive energy.
Coridan
03-05-07, 11:33 PM it's not quite the same you're not putting the old soul back into it. You're just suffusing the corpse with raw soul energy from the Celestial planes (it's the very stuff that makes up the planes). And if it fits into the belief system of the deity it is therefore good in that setting. In Forgotten Realms Kelemvor might have a problem with it, but it'd vary from setting to setting.
xver
03-06-07, 01:04 AM I know you're not putting the old soul back into it. But if their corpse gets turned into an Undead or Deathless, they can't be rezed. You see, it's still thier body and they should retain the rights to it. Thus I think the original soul should be allowed to decide wether they'll allow thier body to be used in such a manner.

For a being who's body has been reanimated to be rezed, the resulting creature must be destroyed. Thus if you reanimate someone's corpse and their friends, associates, or relatives wish to bring them back from the dead, they first have to locate and destroy the Undead or Deathless being thats been made of it. This is not Good. That cannot be argued.
Coridan
03-06-07, 01:17 AM I don't think it'll be an issue in our group's games, but for other people wanting to adapt it they could always make it only work on non-intelligent beings like animals. (In this area becoming a Deathless would be considered a great honor)
Bawitda
03-06-07, 01:48 AM Fortunately, in my game, the Deathless are not inherantly good, and undead aren't inherantly evil. So, the neutral god of death (who hates undead as a matter of policy) creates deathless to supplement his war against all unnatural attempts to circumvent his schedules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Coridan 03-04-07, 01:54 AM	Is there an equivalent monster out there that would be a zombie/skeleton template but Deathless based? I was looking at Corpse Creature but they wouldn't be appropriate for Animate Dead (well, a version of Animate Dead that created Deathless instead).
Domriso 03-04-07, 02:02 AM	Off the top of my head, i can't think of anywhere that there might be one, but if you just change a zombie's type to deathless and apply the appropriate changes it should work fine.
Coridan 03-04-07, 02:18 AM	I've thought of that, though the single actions only doesn't seem too fitting. Would it need to be adjusted to remove that? Then again comparing the skeleton to the zombie the only real reason to summon a zombie is if you're fighting something that bashes.
Domriso 03-04-07, 01:13 PM	Then just get rid of the single actions. The only reason they have that is to make them be the shambling creatures from the movies, and newer movies are starting to make them faster.
Coridan 03-04-07, 01:15 PM	Embody Soul gives a dead creature a second chance to make good for all his sins. It works as Animate Dead except uses the Deathless Soul template located below. It can not be used on creatures who have (or had depending on how you want to look at it) the Pure Soul feat. I might get my group to houserule research costs because 1000 x spell level is just cruel to casters when there's no guarantee to success and the spell still has to be balanced against the other spells. Regardless here's what I've come up for it. Size and Type: The creature's type changes to Deathless, it retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind. It uses all the base creatures statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 HD it can't be made into a Deathless Soul with the Embody Soul spell. Speed: Use the base creature's speed Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the soul's size: Tiny or Smaller +0, Small +1, Medium/Large +2, Huge +3, Gargantuan +6, Colossal +10 Attacks: A deathless soul retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. It also gains a slam attack. Damage: As the zombie chart, Medium is 1d6, scales by size based on that Special Attacks[/B}A Deathless Soul retains none of the base creatures special attacks. [B]Special Qualities: A Deathless soul loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A deathless soul gains Damage Reduction 5/Slashing. Abilities A Deathless Soul has no Constitution or Intelligence Score, it gains +2 CHA Saves F 1/3HD, R 1/3HD, W1/2HD+2 Feats Loses all feats of the base creature and gains Toughness. Size/Type: Large Deathless Hit Dice: 4d12+3 Initiative: +3 Speed: 60 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 20 (+3 Dex, -1 Size, +8 Natural Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+7 Attack: Horn +9 Melee (1d8+8) or Slam +6 Melee (1d8+5) Full Attack: Horn +8 (1d8+8) and two hooves +1 (1d4+2) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 feet Saves: Fort +2, Ref +7, Will +9 Abilities: STR 20 DEX 17 CON - INT - WIS 21 CHA 26 Skills: Feats: Toughness CR: 2
Domriso 03-04-07, 01:19 PM	Is that a real spell or one you have created? Either way it creates a deathless zombie that has the single move actions only ability removed. It's pretty nice at that.
Coridan 03-04-07, 01:21 PM	It's one I've created, along with Summon Deathless 1-5 (The Unicorn would be the Summon Deathless 2). As soon as it's all fleshed out I'll probably post the spells and their creatures on the spells board.
Domriso 03-04-07, 01:24 PM	It is pretty good. I never really liked having the single-move actions only thing. I just made them really slow and still. so you might think its a corpse and then it grabs your arm and bites down. :D My players didn't like that.
Naderion 03-04-07, 02:31 PM	Zombies are slow, because they are just rotting corpses. As undead are associated with evil, deathless are often their good equivalent and it just can never be really a good thing to force people to walk the world with a carcass for a body and barly sentient. I think what you want is just a plain and simple deathless with no fantastic abilities. I'd say take just create a 1 HD deathless with no special abilities and you got it.
Domriso 03-04-07, 02:38 PM	See i disagree. Animating a corpse is only evil if you intend to use towards evil. But anyone that believes that a corpse is "Sacred" would vehemently disagree with me, so we'll leave it at that.
Naderion 03-04-07, 02:50 PM	Animating a coprse becomes evil if you are using the corpse of a person who does not want it to be used like that, even if he has really no use for it. Not the necromancy is evil there, but the act of ignoring other peoples wishes.
Domriso 03-04-07, 03:02 PM	But only if they explicitly don't wish for their corpse to be used. Most won't care, being in the afterlife and having a good time. Only those who believe that their corpse is really all that will care. Unless they have a specific purpose in mind.
Coridan 03-04-07, 04:27 PM	I wouldn't see it as any more good/evil than yanking an Avoral from the outer planes and making it fight for you for a few rounds with Summon Monster VII. Your basically just imbuing the dead creature with one of the souls that have become mindless energy aspects of the celestial planes (as most of the dead become)
xver 03-05-07, 06:14 PM	This is a nice idea (if you like Deathless, I'm not so sure how I feel about them), but I have a couple of caveats. Firstly, there should be a Skeleton based option also. I like Skeletons more for some reason. It's not really about powers or anything, it's a simple matter of asthetics. Secondly, while I'm sure many will argue with me, I have a hard time seeing the reanimation of a sentient creature into a mindless automaton as a Good act. Perhaps the spell should seek permission of the body's soul in a manner similar to Raise Dead and company. In this way, if they are truely enjoying their afterlife and don't mind you putting their corpse to good use, you will be able to, but not if they object. After all, only some of the outer planes are a nice place to be a petitioner. If they're happily leading the good life in Celestia, pehaps they don't care. On the other tentacle, if they're being tormented in the Abyss, perhaps they wish to hold out for a ressurection, however unlikely it may be. To make up for the fact that you can't be sure the spell will work, pehaps it could be done in such a way that it only consumes the material componant if the spell works. On that note, the material componant should be changed from a black onyx to some other gemstone. I suggest white onyx.
lord_zack 03-05-07, 06:33 PM	I have a Deathless-version of zombies. Intead of being rotting corpses they're intact but glow with positive energy.
Coridan 03-05-07, 11:33 PM	it's not quite the same you're not putting the old soul back into it. You're just suffusing the corpse with raw soul energy from the Celestial planes (it's the very stuff that makes up the planes). And if it fits into the belief system of the deity it is therefore good in that setting. In Forgotten Realms Kelemvor might have a problem with it, but it'd vary from setting to setting.
xver 03-06-07, 01:04 AM	I know you're not putting the old soul back into it. But if their corpse gets turned into an Undead or Deathless, they can't be rezed. You see, it's still thier body and they should retain the rights to it. Thus I think the original soul should be allowed to decide wether they'll allow thier body to be used in such a manner. For a being who's body has been reanimated to be rezed, the resulting creature must be destroyed. Thus if you reanimate someone's corpse and their friends, associates, or relatives wish to bring them back from the dead, they first have to locate and destroy the Undead or Deathless being thats been made of it. This is not Good. That cannot be argued.
Coridan 03-06-07, 01:17 AM	I don't think it'll be an issue in our group's games, but for other people wanting to adapt it they could always make it only work on non-intelligent beings like animals. (In this area becoming a Deathless would be considered a great honor)
Bawitda 03-06-07, 01:48 AM	Fortunately, in my game, the Deathless are not inherantly good, and undead aren't inherantly evil. So, the neutral god of death (who hates undead as a matter of policy) creates deathless to supplement his war against all unnatural attempts to circumvent his schedules.