Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-10-07, 07:38 PM	Do Demon "evolve"? Im not talking about Pokemon stuff! But on the page 127 of Fiendish Codex, its say that Orcus was "Larva" that became a Mane. Ok, that i understand it! But its said that some Mane become other kind of demon. That i understand it again.....but Orcus seem to have transformed quite a lot! Human-->Larva-->Mane-->Rutterkin-->Nalfeshee-->Orcus So, are Demon all petitionner that evolve into various form over time? Or are demon BORN like biological beign??? Is Orcus an exception...or just another run-of-the-mill demon who became strong? Do every demon start as petitionner and evolve into various form???
Witch 01-10-07, 07:39 PM	They "evolve", yes. He's not an exception.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-10-07, 07:43 PM	So they are all evolving petitionner that change into a more and more powerfull over time???
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-10-07, 07:44 PM	So they are all evolving petitionner that change into a more and more powerfull over time??? Most are.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-10-07, 07:50 PM	Is the process the same for Devil? Since Mane seem similar to Lemure...
Witch 01-10-07, 07:54 PM	Devils have a similar process, yes.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-10-07, 07:57 PM	This give me the creeps....last question, does it work the same whit Yugoloth???
lint trap 01-10-07, 08:04 PM	Yes, they can get "promoted" too. Note that this isn't a quick process, though. Each stage takes hundreds, if not thousands of years to get through. And devolution happens as well.
TheOinodaemon 01-11-07, 03:03 AM	Last I checked the Celestial races went through a similiar process. Find book called warriors of Heaven. Demons (through random misfires of the Abyss) and Devils (through study and experimentation) also produce member of their respective species that have wildly different powers. Check out Faces of Evil: The Fiends, an older supplement for details on the whole process.
Echoes of Deception 01-11-07, 11:43 AM	This 'evolution' you're talking about is not something that happens automatically, remember that. It's something that is decided upon by higher level fiends and sometimes by gods. In fact, in most cases, it's nothing like an evolution. Rather, it's a transformation evoked by intense torture in fire and worse elements over a period of years, ranging from single digits, to hundreds. Maybe more. In some cases, though, the sheer amount of power that a fiend has amassesd will evoke such a promotion of morphism from the plane itself, and that's usually when you come up with such unique things as Orcus.
Witch 01-11-07, 11:45 AM	I don't think Gods have anything to do with it. Higher fiends, yes, but only for devils and 'loths. Demons do it on their own.
Echoes of Deception 01-11-07, 11:52 AM	Granted, it would not be normal for a god to promote a creature thusly, but on the other hand, what is there to stop them?
Witch 01-11-07, 01:31 PM	The Devils killing those promoted by a God, because they don't like infringements on the hierarchy.
willvr 01-11-07, 01:56 PM	Not even the evil deities get on that well with devils - only if they could somehow steal them and turn them into one of their favored servants would anything like promotion happen, I think.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-11-07, 04:50 PM	I was damn sure Celestial and Yugoloth where based on the same process...but i think Demon havea more "random" change...
oracle71 01-11-07, 05:47 PM	I was damn sure Celestial and Yugoloth where based on the same process...but i think Demon havea more "random" change... Some celestials do go through a similar process. Both Archons and Angels can ascend to greater forms by becoming more virtuous, a process which takes a great deal of time. Guardinals and Eladrin, at least according to the old Planescape rules, don't gain more powerful forms. They are actually born to celestial parents, though I'm not sure if this has changed in 3rd Ed. Yugoloth promotion is more complicated, but it is deliberate. When a 'Loth sufficiently learns certain lessons about power and manipulation, it may be sponsored by a higher level 'Loth. The potential ascendant is then tested by high-level 'Loths. If it fails the test, the ascendant is destroyed and the sponsor is, shall we say, punished as the cruelest race in the multiverse likes to punish those who irritate them.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-11-07, 07:16 PM	Short and sweet version: Demons (tanar'ri): many begin as petitioners, some are born by the physical mating of two other demons, some are formed from the raw stuff of the abyss. Only least and greater Tanar'ri can mate to produce more of their kind, while "true tanar'ri" cannot be born but are a state that can be reached only by the evolution/promotion of a member of a lower caste. Devils (baatezu): every single baatezu begins as a petitioner. They cannot mate to produce more of their kind (female Baatezu are sterile for most purposes). Higher castes are created from the promotion of lower ranked devils. Yugoloths: no petitioner has ever become a yugoloth. Mezzoloths form spontaneously from the raw stuff of the Gray Waste, Gehenna, and sometimes Carceri. Mezzoloths are the base point for promotion into higher and higher castes of yugoloth. Nycaloths and arcanaloths can breed more of their own castes, but such 'loths are consigned to second class status versus those that earned their way up from mezzoloth. Ultroloths can create arcanaloths on their own by parthanogenesis, but they as a caste are only formed by the apotheosis of an arcanaloth. Demodand: formed out of the corpses of those who die in Carceri, empowered by the act of their deity/creator Apomps the Triple Aspected, an exiled Baernaloth. They evolve from farastu to kelubar to shator only when one of the fixed number of slots in each caste has an opening due to a death. Archons: all archons begin as petitioners to mount celestia (lantern archons) and slowly earn their way to higher forms from that point. Even the members of the celestial hebdomad began in this fashion (archons are one of the youngest outsider races). Eladrin: so far as anyone knows they don't form from petitioners, but they can mate amongst castes and their lower types likely form from Arborea itself. Promotion between castes is likely but has never been fully elaborated upon as far as the process. Guardinals: like eladrins, they don't form from petitioners, but the various castes can mate amongst their own kind, and the lower forms are created from the raw stuff of Elysium.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-11-07, 10:16 PM	Granted, it would not be normal for a god to promote a creature thusly, but on the other hand, what is there to stop them? The same thing that stopped them every other time the gods have interfered with the affairs of the fiends. The fiends themselves.
Echoes of Deception 01-11-07, 10:22 PM	So then, Shemeska, how do we end up with fiends of unique form?
Shemeska the Marauder 01-11-07, 11:03 PM	So then, Shemeska, how do we end up with fiends of unique form? In the Abyss it's the result of a Tanar'ri growing to a point of power above and beyond the typical true tanar'ri, at which point they undergo a sort of personal apotheosis, usually around the same time they attempt to bond with and assert control over a layer of the Abyss itself. It's a unique process in every event, just based on the chaotic nature of the Abyss. In Baator you have to have risen to Pit Fiend and subsequently been welcomed into the court of one of the Lords of the 9, a duke of hell, or some other member of the diabolic nobility. This transition from rank and file baatezu to noble baatezu brings with it a unique form. For the yugoloths it's more complicated, neither chaotic nor bound by hard and fast rules. One class of unique yugoloths known as Altraloths are a perversion of the usual yugoloth heirarchy. The 'loths of this group choose to forsake purity and orthodoxy in exchange for a quick rise to power by entering into a binding agreement with a powerful cabal of night hags in which the hags sacrifice a massive amount of their own power for a significant period of time to empower the 'loth in exchange for a period of service. Anthraxus was an ultroloth before his agreement, Bubonix was an arcanaloth, and Typhus was only a mezzoloth. They're loathed by their race at times, but they have the power to usually carve out a place amongst their orthodox kin despite this. Other yugoloths achieve a unique form as a result of ascending to Oinoloth, and having the power of the Seige Malicious warp their form into something fitting their position. To date we don't know what changes the position made upon Mydianchlarus.