Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeciusNero 10-18-07, 08:55 PM	Aren't the demons in Fiendish Codex I a bit underpowered? I mean, if Juliblex was a CR 19, then he would have been killed by a single balor by now? So shouldn't those be the demon aspects (as the archdevils in FC 2 are aspects), and the ones on the errata minor aspects?
Return of the Flumph 10-18-07, 11:08 PM	They are a bit strong for aspects (an aspect is usually around CR 8-13 or so), but I could see them as unique avatars of the archfiends. As in, an archfiend can create countless aspects, but can only have one avatar at a time. Avatars are usually in the high core to low epic range, so the FC stats (both one and two) fit the bill perfectly. For the actual archfiends themselves, use either the BOVD stats or, in a higher powered campaign, the Dicefreaks ones.
Borris 10-18-07, 11:41 PM	That's how I do it in my games. At the lowest stage, you have aspects, like those from the Miniatures Handbook, Dragon Magic, of the Fiendish Codex web enhancements, usually in the CR 9-13 range. Little more than toenails and flakes of skin to the deities who create the, these powerful creatures are not under the control of their creator, though they usually share their personality, if not the intellect. Then, in the 18-30 range, you have avatars. In my point of view, that includes the aspects from Fiendish Codex 2, and the greater powers from Fiendish Codex 1, Book of Vile Darkness, and Book of Exalted Deeds. To create an avatar, a deity or similar creature must imbue it with a part of its essence. A deity can only have a very limited number of avatars in existence at the same time. They can control them at distance, and see, hear, and feel through their avatar's senses. While the death of an aspect is inconsequential to a deity, getting an avatar detroyed carries far more severe penalties. This can be something like being unable to create another avatar, or to send minions or visit the plane where the avatar was destroyed for a certain time, or even a minor drop of power for the deity itself. Finally, at the top of the food chain, you have the deities and archfiends themselves. I wouldn't bother with finding stats for them, as they are far beyond the reach of mortals, and I doubt I'll ever feel like running a campaign that goes beyond level 30. But if you really want to see divine stats, look for the deiteis in Faiths and Pantheons or Deities and Demigods. They are usually 20 hit-dice outsiders with somewhere between 40 and 60 levels of character classes, putting them somewhere in the CR 50-70 range.
Return of the Flumph 10-19-07, 12:29 AM	If you do want the stats for the true forms of the gods and archfiends, I'd recommend using Dicefreaks instead of DDG; the mechanics are more usable, the abilities are more flavorful, and its free.
runestar 10-19-07, 06:27 AM	They were deliberately designed to be around that cr so that players could actually use them in their adventures, rather than stare at a cr60 monstrosity that will never see the gaming table because of the lack of lv60 games.
DeciusNero 10-21-07, 07:30 PM	What I was saying is: why are the demon lords weak, when the archdukes of hell are shown as powerful aspects? Why would Juliblex (sp?) be around if a balor could rip him apart? As for avatars, I don't need them; aspects serve the same purpose, and I doubt a deity (or other powerful creature) is going to make a version of itself, and have it be powerful enough to engage a mid-level adventuring party. I'm going to say that those "demon lords" are actually aspects, just for game reasons - as Runestar pointed out, I doubt any would face an actual deity, much less the hard time getting near that deity in the first place.
Return of the Flumph 10-21-07, 07:55 PM	What I was saying is: why are the demon lords weak, when the archdukes of hell are shown as powerful aspects? Why would Juliblex (sp?) be around if a balor could rip him apart? As for avatars, I don't need them; aspects serve the same purpose, and I doubt a deity (or other powerful creature) is going to make a version of itself, and have it be powerful enough to engage a mid-level adventuring party. I'm going to say that those "demon lords" are actually aspects, just for game reasons - as Runestar pointed out, I doubt any would face an actual deity, much less the hard time getting near that deity in the first place. Whether you call it "aspect" or "avatar" is really a matter of semantics. I think we've all pretty much answered your question.
runestar 10-21-07, 09:33 PM	Why would Juliblex (sp?) be around if a balor could rip him apart? It has been clarified that the demon lords in FC1 are really their aspects (or avatars or whatever), rather than the real mccoy. Dicefreaks has cr60+ versions of the demon lords if you want.:D
Hammerhead 10-21-07, 11:18 PM	I think they should be aspects and the real demon lords would be CR 40-50 or so but would never leave their lairs unless they had to. Id also say if the aspect gets killed it woudl take them like a year to build a new one
Necroramo 10-22-07, 05:07 PM	The book took a lot of flak for this.... it's a general consensus that those things are aspects