demon lord weaker then a balor? [Archive] - Wizards Community

demon lord weaker then a balor? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mesraic
06-01-06, 02:13 AM Can anyone tell me why WOTC is making a DEMON LORD that has a CR lower then that of a BALOR? Jubilex is going to be a CR 19 creatuer while a BALOR is a CR 20 creature. Doesnt seem to make much sense to me. They are making a system to make these creature into epic....but still how are they going to say that a DEMON LORD by their CR system is going to be weaker then a BALOR, a non demon lord.
I know I'm probly going to get flamed for this one but thanks ahead for you input.
Another Gnome
06-01-06, 02:19 AM For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter?
runestar
06-01-06, 02:22 AM The juiblex as presented is probably only an avatar the real juiblex sends to confront his enemies, hence its watered down stats. The real version is either the monstrosity in the BOVD, or suitably advanced with divine ranks.
Malakai_Demonos
06-01-06, 02:25 AM When did WoTC say they were making an epic demon lord weaker than a balor. And as far as Demon Princes and Devil Dukes, don't use the ones from BoVD, they are way underpowered, especially for epic. WoTC tries to make their books not rely on one another, hence why their is nothing epic in the BoVD, BoED, and Dieties and Demi-gods.

BoVD=Book of vile brokeness
BoED=Book of Exalted Chess
(joke by Fanged Fremont)
Malakai_Demonos
06-01-06, 02:26 AM For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter?

But said epic fighter might actually be loyal, demons and devils share no such loyalties.
Echoes of Deception
06-01-06, 02:53 AM I think you're forgetting about the hierarchy, here. The devils are extremely lawful creatures, and must adhere to the adamantine structure of their society, backstabbing though it is. A devil duke is also very manipulative, and while it may be less powerful than some of its subjects, it may also make the impression that it is in fact far superior by use of both insanely machinated theatrics that serve no other purpose, and yugoloths or other planar mercenaries it has bought that can take out a single high-powered devil that tries to break rank.

Demons on the other hand would be much more brute. A balor may be more powerful than a demon prince, but the demon prince has command over a practically limitless army of lesser demons that will eventually make a grim example out of one bad apple. Also, a demon prince probably also has magical control over its subjects that the subjects in question may not know anything about. Like a truename, or the command over a living creature that was engineered for no other purpose than knowing their subjects' truenames and being able to control them. After all, nothing is too low for for these guys.

But, that's just my philosophy.
runestar
06-01-06, 03:18 AM Demons on the other hand would be much more brute. A balor may be more powerful than a demon prince, but the demon prince has command over a practically limitless army of lesser demons that will eventually make a grim example out of one bad apple.
I disagree. Demons are CE, so a demon prince is probably holding his army in check by cowling them into submission with his superior might. They are really serving him for lack of a better alternative. If a balor is stronger than a demon prince, said demon prince would have been deposed long ago and his army switching alliances to said balor instead.
Malakai_Demonos
06-01-06, 03:30 AM I think you're forgetting about the hierarchy, here. The devils are extremely lawful creatures, and must adhere to the adamantine structure of their society, backstabbing though it is. A devil duke is also very manipulative, and while it may be less powerful than some of its subjects, it may also make the impression that it is in fact far superior by use of both insanely machinated theatrics that serve no other purpose, and yugoloths or other planar mercenaries it has bought that can take out a single high-powered devil that tries to break rank.
IMO, Osmodeus wouldn't mind a powerful pit fiend deposing a duke if it was more powerful. He definitly wouldn't come to said devils rescue. Hell, he would pry encourage such practice, keeps dukes in a paranoid state if they think that they could be replaced if they don't keep their **** together. This would keep the dukes from rising against Asmodeous and make sure that they fought each other instead, which they do all of the time.
Shemeska the Marauder
06-02-06, 07:58 PM For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter?

Except that king and his general are mortals, not fiends, and they're not living in the manifest Darwinian Nightmare that is the Abyss. Apples and Fiendish Oranges.

The stats are a mistake, a giant one, but they're only 23 pages of the book. The rest of the material more than makes up for that, and it appears that material suggesting that the stats we're complaining about were intended to represent avatars or greater aspects were cut during the editing process. The authors of the book have addressed this topic over on Enworld, the reasons behind the stats, etc and I have to think that they had pressure from the people above them to write the numbers to a certain expectation and not deviate from it much.

Also, the book makes it firm that the Abyssal Lords have control over their own layer(s) of the Abyss on the same level as a deity within their deific domain. The authors have stated that the level of control they have is more than the mechanics might suggest in the book as well.

Don't worry. Mona and Jacobs have done their homework for the book, they've remained remarkably true to the wealth of prior material on the Abyss (Planescape and other sources). The book will be a very good one, even if I giggle at the stats and use them as watered down projections rather than the actual archfiends' stats.
EldonG
06-02-06, 08:12 PM Here's what I do:
Take them as they are, then give them levels, as appropriate. As much experience as these villians have, why shouldn't they be 10th...12th...16th...or even 20th level or more, by now?
(Psi)SeveredHead
06-03-06, 12:34 PM For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter?

Nah. He rules through tradition and through his higher level ministers and/or generals.

The demon has to rule through power and fear.

There's supposed to be a template in the book that can boost their CR, but we haven't seen it so we don't know how useful this template is.
speeblefreak
06-03-06, 01:39 PM I should point out that this is not entirely new. Back in the final days of 3.0 a rank-and-file demon (the klurichur) was statted to be more powerful than Graz'zt.
EldonG
06-03-06, 01:41 PM I should point out that this is not entirely new. Back in the final days of 3.0 a rank-and-file demon (the klurichur) was statted to be more powerful than Graz'zt.
I wouldn't exactly call them rank-and-file, but I do believe the lords should be more powerful, and they aren't.
Watchdog_of_Hades
06-03-06, 02:57 PM Maybe this has already been said, but the demon lord's underlings keep his underlings in check. For example, Juiblex has two lieutenants or approximately equal power: Larry and George.

Larry: Man, I'd love to kill Juiblex, but he and George would gang up on me and kill me.
George: Man, I'd love to kill Juiblex, but he and Larry would gang up on me and kill me.

So even though Juiblex is fairly weak (compared to his minions), he can still stay alive.
savant_warlord13
06-03-06, 06:09 PM For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter?

You don't become king through tearing the guts out of celestials
(Psi)SeveredHead
06-03-06, 06:52 PM You don't become king through tearing the guts out of celestials

The person who founded the dynasty might have done so, though.
Ogre4Hire
06-04-06, 02:55 AM Two important things haven't been mentioned yet:

1 BoVD is a 3.0 product. In 3.0, Balors were a CR 16 (I think). They got beefed up for 3.5.

2. CR does not always represent an accurate comparison of how two monsters will do in a fight against each other. Imagine a fight between a Shadow and a Mind Flayer...
Morrowner
06-04-06, 03:06 AM If it bothers you that much give it one level of fighter. Elite scores, 2 feats, and it more than holds its own against a Balor. The product it is in will give a chart showing how to scale a demon into a more powerful form so you can have Jubilex be all the way up to an epic monstrosity that eats Great dragons for breakfast.
Altazar Darkflame
06-27-06, 05:09 AM There is actually a description on how to advance Demon Lords to make them more powerful, contained in the book. +2 to all stats per 5 levels, on top of everything else. I would believe, we are considering a general 10 levels increase for all Demon Lords to make them in the range of HD 31 to HD 37.

As for CR being key... Well, the Queen of Chaos was a HD 20 outsider in the Rod of Seven Parts, while Miska the Wolf Spider was HD 24. Yet nobody doubted who was the master!
Spike_Fightwicky
06-27-06, 07:38 AM There is actually a description on how to advance Demon Lords to make them more powerful, contained in the book. +2 to all stats per 5 levels, on top of everything else. I would believe, we are considering a general 10 levels increase for all Demon Lords to make them in the range of HD 31 to HD 37.

As for CR being key... Well, the Queen of Chaos was a HD 20 outsider in the Rod of Seven Parts, while Miska the Wolf Spider was HD 24. Yet nobody doubted who was the master!

I find those rules a little wonky, for just 1 reason: they say that every hit dice of outsider you advance them by, you give them +1 CR (instead of the usual +1/2 hit dice added). Anyone know why this is? They don't gain special abilities every hit dice, and their save DCs still only go up by +1 every 2 hit dice...

That aside, take the MM II route, and don't judge a monster by its CR. I was browsing through the book and took a look at the head Succubus demon prince(princess?). She's a CR 21, but WOW. The save DCs on her very powerful abilities are a whopping 37!?! (And I don't think she even has ability focus) So every round as a free action she can dominate (good luck making a DC 37 will save mister melee) a character, and they WILL fail their... will save. I haven't looked to closely to the other ones, but if she's just a CR 21, then I'd hate to see a CR 22-23.
razorboy
06-27-06, 08:28 AM Juiblex may be a CR 19 but firstly as many people pointed out - that's most likely an avatar of Juiblex, since HotA states that demon lords are capable of projecting less powerful versions of itself. The book also specifically states that if the DM wants to use Epic and divine rules, then all demon lords should technically have Divine Rank of at least 0 (Orcus and Juiblex and Grazz't IMO should have Divine Rank of at least 1, their cults are bigger than other demon lords). With Divine Rank of 0 and ability to alter layer of Abyss the demon lord is on, Juiblex will easily own a balor.

Secondly, the stats for Juiblex taken as is, are still a match for a balor. Tons of special attacks and abilities, can't be critted, massive saves, surrounded by a sea of other slimes and oozes, there won't be a lot that a balor could do to destroy Juiblex.

I can't wait to see the Fiendish Codex for Devils. I hope they beef up the Hag Countess and make a semi-decent job explaining how she hasn't been deposed yet. A lot of folks owe her a lot of favors in the Nine Hells (and elsewhere), but that would probably guarantee a lot of enemies far more powerful and resourceful than an advanced night hag could handle.
lukelightning
06-27-06, 09:56 AM There's nothing to say that there are unlimited numbers of Balors. Perhaps there are just 4 in the universe (like way back in 1ed there were a limited number of the higher types of demons). So these balors rule their own realms but don't have the power to extend their territory.
celtredleg
06-27-06, 10:16 AM They just pu them so low so that a 20th level hacker party can say "yep thats orcus over there. Next week we hunt demigorgon."

A cosmology that has consistant fiends has never really been a big deal in DnD, and planes focused DMs have been beefing them up for 4 editions now.
sebastienurbanek
11-12-06, 11:28 AM I wrote a web folio with the stats of epic demon lords on:
www.dndadventure.com
Enjoy!
I did it with the advencement rules from FC1, Deities & demigods for powers + of my own creation from the savior txts of FC1.
Teron Gorefiend
11-12-06, 02:37 PM The FC1 is pretty good, but it pales in some respects next to the Dragon articles it's based on: the Demonomicon of Iggwilv. To avoid proselytising (virtually everything you could want to know about demon princes/queens, plus new demons and thrall PrC's!), I'll just say that the demon lord with the lowest CR thus far is Baphomet, at 24. The highest CR is Dagon's 30. They also have cool abilities, such as Zuggtmoy's abilities to engulf a foe and spit it back out as a fiendish slave.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mesraic 06-01-06, 02:13 AM	Can anyone tell me why WOTC is making a DEMON LORD that has a CR lower then that of a BALOR? Jubilex is going to be a CR 19 creatuer while a BALOR is a CR 20 creature. Doesnt seem to make much sense to me. They are making a system to make these creature into epic....but still how are they going to say that a DEMON LORD by their CR system is going to be weaker then a BALOR, a non demon lord. I know I'm probly going to get flamed for this one but thanks ahead for you input.
Another Gnome 06-01-06, 02:19 AM	For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter?
runestar 06-01-06, 02:22 AM	The juiblex as presented is probably only an avatar the real juiblex sends to confront his enemies, hence its watered down stats. The real version is either the monstrosity in the BOVD, or suitably advanced with divine ranks.
Malakai_Demonos 06-01-06, 02:25 AM	When did WoTC say they were making an epic demon lord weaker than a balor. And as far as Demon Princes and Devil Dukes, don't use the ones from BoVD, they are way underpowered, especially for epic. WoTC tries to make their books not rely on one another, hence why their is nothing epic in the BoVD, BoED, and Dieties and Demi-gods. BoVD=Book of vile brokeness BoED=Book of Exalted Chess (joke by Fanged Fremont)
Malakai_Demonos 06-01-06, 02:26 AM	For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter? But said epic fighter might actually be loyal, demons and devils share no such loyalties.
Echoes of Deception 06-01-06, 02:53 AM	I think you're forgetting about the hierarchy, here. The devils are extremely lawful creatures, and must adhere to the adamantine structure of their society, backstabbing though it is. A devil duke is also very manipulative, and while it may be less powerful than some of its subjects, it may also make the impression that it is in fact far superior by use of both insanely machinated theatrics that serve no other purpose, and yugoloths or other planar mercenaries it has bought that can take out a single high-powered devil that tries to break rank. Demons on the other hand would be much more brute. A balor may be more powerful than a demon prince, but the demon prince has command over a practically limitless army of lesser demons that will eventually make a grim example out of one bad apple. Also, a demon prince probably also has magical control over its subjects that the subjects in question may not know anything about. Like a truename, or the command over a living creature that was engineered for no other purpose than knowing their subjects' truenames and being able to control them. After all, nothing is too low for for these guys. But, that's just my philosophy.
runestar 06-01-06, 03:18 AM	Demons on the other hand would be much more brute. A balor may be more powerful than a demon prince, but the demon prince has command over a practically limitless army of lesser demons that will eventually make a grim example out of one bad apple. I disagree. Demons are CE, so a demon prince is probably holding his army in check by cowling them into submission with his superior might. They are really serving him for lack of a better alternative. If a balor is stronger than a demon prince, said demon prince would have been deposed long ago and his army switching alliances to said balor instead.
Malakai_Demonos 06-01-06, 03:30 AM	I think you're forgetting about the hierarchy, here. The devils are extremely lawful creatures, and must adhere to the adamantine structure of their society, backstabbing though it is. A devil duke is also very manipulative, and while it may be less powerful than some of its subjects, it may also make the impression that it is in fact far superior by use of both insanely machinated theatrics that serve no other purpose, and yugoloths or other planar mercenaries it has bought that can take out a single high-powered devil that tries to break rank. IMO, Osmodeus wouldn't mind a powerful pit fiend deposing a duke if it was more powerful. He definitly wouldn't come to said devils rescue. Hell, he would pry encourage such practice, keeps dukes in a paranoid state if they think that they could be replaced if they don't keep their **** together. This would keep the dukes from rising against Asmodeous and make sure that they fought each other instead, which they do all of the time.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-02-06, 07:58 PM	For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter? Except that king and his general are mortals, not fiends, and they're not living in the manifest Darwinian Nightmare that is the Abyss. Apples and Fiendish Oranges. The stats are a mistake, a giant one, but they're only 23 pages of the book. The rest of the material more than makes up for that, and it appears that material suggesting that the stats we're complaining about were intended to represent avatars or greater aspects were cut during the editing process. The authors of the book have addressed this topic over on Enworld, the reasons behind the stats, etc and I have to think that they had pressure from the people above them to write the numbers to a certain expectation and not deviate from it much. Also, the book makes it firm that the Abyssal Lords have control over their own layer(s) of the Abyss on the same level as a deity within their deific domain. The authors have stated that the level of control they have is more than the mechanics might suggest in the book as well. Don't worry. Mona and Jacobs have done their homework for the book, they've remained remarkably true to the wealth of prior material on the Abyss (Planescape and other sources). The book will be a very good one, even if I giggle at the stats and use them as watered down projections rather than the actual archfiends' stats.
EldonG 06-02-06, 08:12 PM	Here's what I do: Take them as they are, then give them levels, as appropriate. As much experience as these villians have, why shouldn't they be 10th...12th...16th...or even 20th level or more, by now?
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-03-06, 12:34 PM	For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter? Nah. He rules through tradition and through his higher level ministers and/or generals. The demon has to rule through power and fear. There's supposed to be a template in the book that can boost their CR, but we haven't seen it so we don't know how useful this template is.
speeblefreak 06-03-06, 01:39 PM	I should point out that this is not entirely new. Back in the final days of 3.0 a rank-and-file demon (the klurichur) was statted to be more powerful than Graz'zt.
EldonG 06-03-06, 01:41 PM	I should point out that this is not entirely new. Back in the final days of 3.0 a rank-and-file demon (the klurichur) was statted to be more powerful than Graz'zt. I wouldn't exactly call them rank-and-file, but I do believe the lords should be more powerful, and they aren't.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-03-06, 02:57 PM	Maybe this has already been said, but the demon lord's underlings keep his underlings in check. For example, Juiblex has two lieutenants or approximately equal power: Larry and George. Larry: Man, I'd love to kill Juiblex, but he and George would gang up on me and kill me. George: Man, I'd love to kill Juiblex, but he and Larry would gang up on me and kill me. So even though Juiblex is fairly weak (compared to his minions), he can still stay alive.
savant_warlord13 06-03-06, 06:09 PM	For the same reason the king of a country can be a 1st-level aristocrat while his most powerful general is an epic-level fighter? You don't become king through tearing the guts out of celestials
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-03-06, 06:52 PM	You don't become king through tearing the guts out of celestials The person who founded the dynasty might have done so, though.
Ogre4Hire 06-04-06, 02:55 AM	Two important things haven't been mentioned yet: 1 BoVD is a 3.0 product. In 3.0, Balors were a CR 16 (I think). They got beefed up for 3.5. 2. CR does not always represent an accurate comparison of how two monsters will do in a fight against each other. Imagine a fight between a Shadow and a Mind Flayer...
Morrowner 06-04-06, 03:06 AM	If it bothers you that much give it one level of fighter. Elite scores, 2 feats, and it more than holds its own against a Balor. The product it is in will give a chart showing how to scale a demon into a more powerful form so you can have Jubilex be all the way up to an epic monstrosity that eats Great dragons for breakfast.
Altazar Darkflame 06-27-06, 05:09 AM	There is actually a description on how to advance Demon Lords to make them more powerful, contained in the book. +2 to all stats per 5 levels, on top of everything else. I would believe, we are considering a general 10 levels increase for all Demon Lords to make them in the range of HD 31 to HD 37. As for CR being key... Well, the Queen of Chaos was a HD 20 outsider in the Rod of Seven Parts, while Miska the Wolf Spider was HD 24. Yet nobody doubted who was the master!
Spike_Fightwicky 06-27-06, 07:38 AM	There is actually a description on how to advance Demon Lords to make them more powerful, contained in the book. +2 to all stats per 5 levels, on top of everything else. I would believe, we are considering a general 10 levels increase for all Demon Lords to make them in the range of HD 31 to HD 37. As for CR being key... Well, the Queen of Chaos was a HD 20 outsider in the Rod of Seven Parts, while Miska the Wolf Spider was HD 24. Yet nobody doubted who was the master! I find those rules a little wonky, for just 1 reason: they say that every hit dice of outsider you advance them by, you give them +1 CR (instead of the usual +1/2 hit dice added). Anyone know why this is? They don't gain special abilities every hit dice, and their save DCs still only go up by +1 every 2 hit dice... That aside, take the MM II route, and don't judge a monster by its CR. I was browsing through the book and took a look at the head Succubus demon prince(princess?). She's a CR 21, but WOW. The save DCs on her very powerful abilities are a whopping 37!?! (And I don't think she even has ability focus) So every round as a free action she can dominate (good luck making a DC 37 will save mister melee) a character, and they WILL fail their... will save. I haven't looked to closely to the other ones, but if she's just a CR 21, then I'd hate to see a CR 22-23.
razorboy 06-27-06, 08:28 AM	Juiblex may be a CR 19 but firstly as many people pointed out - that's most likely an avatar of Juiblex, since HotA states that demon lords are capable of projecting less powerful versions of itself. The book also specifically states that if the DM wants to use Epic and divine rules, then all demon lords should technically have Divine Rank of at least 0 (Orcus and Juiblex and Grazz't IMO should have Divine Rank of at least 1, their cults are bigger than other demon lords). With Divine Rank of 0 and ability to alter layer of Abyss the demon lord is on, Juiblex will easily own a balor. Secondly, the stats for Juiblex taken as is, are still a match for a balor. Tons of special attacks and abilities, can't be critted, massive saves, surrounded by a sea of other slimes and oozes, there won't be a lot that a balor could do to destroy Juiblex. I can't wait to see the Fiendish Codex for Devils. I hope they beef up the Hag Countess and make a semi-decent job explaining how she hasn't been deposed yet. A lot of folks owe her a lot of favors in the Nine Hells (and elsewhere), but that would probably guarantee a lot of enemies far more powerful and resourceful than an advanced night hag could handle.
lukelightning 06-27-06, 09:56 AM	There's nothing to say that there are unlimited numbers of Balors. Perhaps there are just 4 in the universe (like way back in 1ed there were a limited number of the higher types of demons). So these balors rule their own realms but don't have the power to extend their territory.
celtredleg 06-27-06, 10:16 AM	They just pu them so low so that a 20th level hacker party can say "yep thats orcus over there. Next week we hunt demigorgon." A cosmology that has consistant fiends has never really been a big deal in DnD, and planes focused DMs have been beefing them up for 4 editions now.
sebastienurbanek 11-12-06, 11:28 AM	I wrote a web folio with the stats of epic demon lords on: www.dndadventure.com Enjoy! I did it with the advencement rules from FC1, Deities & demigods for powers + of my own creation from the savior txts of FC1.
Teron Gorefiend 11-12-06, 02:37 PM	The FC1 is pretty good, but it pales in some respects next to the Dragon articles it's based on: the Demonomicon of Iggwilv. To avoid proselytising (virtually everything you could want to know about demon princes/queens, plus new demons and thrall PrC's!), I'll just say that the demon lord with the lowest CR thus far is Baphomet, at 24. The highest CR is Dagon's 30. They also have cool abilities, such as Zuggtmoy's abilities to engulf a foe and spit it back out as a fiendish slave.