Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trippinskip 02-26-06, 12:57 PM	I am planning a campaign to incorporate both of these creatures. Basically a Demon will be trying to become a god of death. But I am just curious on what demons might go well with what undead, to make some good encounters and have a uniform feel with them. I currently only have the 3.5 MM, I am hoping to order the fiend folio, and som other books here next month when my taxes come in. But does anybody have any suggestions? I'm not sure if there are any Demon's that have a more 'undead' feel about them, or travel with undead, create / command undead, or something of those likes? Thakns
speeblefreak 02-26-06, 02:49 PM	When the FF arrives, check out the blood fiend.
dok 02-26-06, 04:07 PM	Blood Fiend in Fiend Folio Zovuut in Monster Manual II Vampire Demon in Beyond Countless Doorways (Monte Cook's Malhavoc Press) As for the underlying theme of "Demon becomes a god of Death", you might want to do some research on this fella called Orcus. You know, the Demon Prince of Undead? He's covered in the Book of Vile Darkness, as well as Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors and Rappan Athuak adventure series, along with older editions of D&D material.
Khael 02-26-06, 04:25 PM	Also get the Libris Mortis, it all about the undead, and gives you the chance to give your demons some undead monster levels if you so wish (i'm unsure how RAW this is, but your the DM...), or undea ftemplates. It also lets you have some altnerate undead, such as the 'unkillable zombie', which you can tie in with the demons as demonically empowered corpses... Also you get the angel of decay and the entropic reaper, which have a sort of demonic feel to them (spreading death, decay and destruction being their favourite hobbies).
Marvos 02-26-06, 08:27 PM	I'm doing a very similar campaign. In mine, the Demon Lord Orcus is trying to reach godhood. The vast majority of Orcus's menions are undead. I just use any kind of undead... vampires work will and so do liches as lieutenants. As has been mentioned, Libris Mortis and Vile Darkness will help you out quite a bit. Bodaks and Bloodfiends are typical "Abyssal" undead.
Trippinskip 02-26-06, 10:09 PM	Orcus, that is his name. I have been trying to remember that for the past two days, it's been right on the tip of my tongue. I will have to check out those books mentioned above with info on him. Are their any type of 'demon' or 'devil' templates that anyone knows of? I am going to be using demon's most likely. It would be cool to add some demonic templates to undead, or undead templates to demons, to give it all a uniform feel. Though it seems a bit odd. But oh well, I can do whatever works for a fun game right ;). Maybe some vampire babau or skeleton quasits.
Khael 02-27-06, 02:23 PM	Are their any type of 'demon' or 'devil' templates that anyone knows of? I am going to be using demon's most likely. It would be cool to add some demonic templates to undead, or undead templates to demons, to give it all a uniform feel. Though it seems a bit odd. But oh well, I can do whatever works for a fun game right ;). Maybe some vampire babau or skeleton quasits. You also might want to look for Tenebreus (sp?), Orcus' former alter ago after he died and was resurrected. Also short of the fiendish template i don't think there is a demon template, owning to the fact technically many demons are themselves former mortals and so any demon is a 'template' of sorts. But a vampiric Balor fits quite well for an inspiring God of death (not to mention its one of the campaign ideas in the Libris Mortis).
Khalarak Ironclaw 02-27-06, 04:25 PM	By the RAW, the fiendish template unfortunately cannot be applied to undead. The same is true of the wonderful half-fiend template. However, I never personally understood why this is so, since its perfectly possible for a fiendish or half-fiend creature to die and become undead. Even with the typical argument of an outsiders soul being one with its body, making it impossible for an undead fiend to exist, half-fiends and fiendish creatures are both mortal and thus are under no such restriction (at least, that is how I interpret their ability to be raised, reincarnated, etc., as well as their need to eat and sleep). So, you could theoretically create a half-fiend troll or half-fiend ogre mage and make it a vampire in order to have an 'undead demon'. This is all assuming you want to go by the RAW, as you say, you're the DM and are free to rule as you like. I personally love the idea of a gravetouched ghoul hezrou. However, addressing your original query, Osyluths are devils that most closely resemble the undead, as are babaus. The maurhezi and the abyssal ghoul, both in the Fiend Folio, are an undead-like demon and a demon-like undead, respectively. The hullathoin, again in the Fiend Folio, is a giant undead creature that harbors swarms of hellish wasps in its body. The excellent third-party book, the Book of Fiends, by Green Ronin, has many more undead-flavored demons that I'm not sure I'm allowed to discuss here in any great detail.
Trippinskip 02-27-06, 05:25 PM	By the RAW, the fiendish template unfortunately cannot be applied to undead. The same is true of the wonderful half-fiend template. However, I never personally understood why this is so, since its perfectly possible for a fiendish or half-fiend creature to die and become undead. Yeah, I figured the same thing. I will probably apply them anyway, I don't think it will effect things to much. GR book of fiends one of my players has, so maybe I will grab that from him. I was thinking of that anyway, see what I can find. They have 2 feind books though I think, the other is soething about the abyss. But anyway. I ordered the Fiend Folio today, and MM 2, and am goona hunt down some more undead templates here on the forums and WotC's site. I think Monte and Sean Reynolds had some undead templates on their site too maybe I can find.
malignor 02-27-06, 05:42 PM	You can't apply fiendish/half fiend to undead BUT you can apply undead to fiendish/half fiend. That it to say you can turn a fiendish/half fiend creature into undead, but a demon can't mate w/ undead to create a half-fiend, nor can an undead by affected by extraplanar energies to become fiendish.
Khalarak Ironclaw 02-27-06, 06:37 PM	They have 2 feind books though I think, the other is soething about the abyss. The other book you're thinking of is Armies of the Abyss, and it is in fact the first segment of the Book of Fiends, which is a compilation of Armies of the Abyss, Legions of Hell, and Hordes of Gehenna. :teach:
Shemeska the Marauder 02-28-06, 01:44 AM	Speaking of 'undead fiends'... By the RAW yes, you can have them (and the exercises in sloppy design that was the Blood Fiend in the FF, and the 'Fiend Lich' in Libris Mortis are the posterchildren of that). However undead fiends are the conceptual equivalent of a football bat... they make little sense unless they're bizarre flukes of reality. Best example of undead fiends, aka one that has a valid reason to exist (outside of undead = evil and demons=evil, so undead demons are more evil thats so kewl!!11!) but, diatribe aside, the best example is the Visage (in Libris Mortis, originally created in the module/sourcebook 'Dead Gods' in 2e, though not credited in Libris Mortis as such). Visages were Tanar'ri infused by Tenebrous/Orcus with negative energy at the point of death and denied rebirth as lesser fiends or fusion with the Abyss that results when fiends die a final, true death. It's not entirely 'undead fiend' in the sense of a vampire biting a fiend and making it undead (such is dumb and shouldn't work), it's a bizarre and very specific case, made even more delightful by the fact that Tanar'ri see the existance of Visages as abhorrant compared to their true natures. Examples of 'undead fiends' really should be rare and used sparingly, because they'd be ripped to shreds by other Tanar'ri, and because no fiend has any desire to become undead. The primary urge to take upon undeath is reserved for mortals who wish to escape their own mortality. Fiends don't have the weight of mortality pressed down upon their backs like the world on Atlas' shoulders, and so combing their lack of a legitimate need to embrace undeath, combined with the fact they generally would view that status as an anathema to their fiendish nature, it should be reserved for bizarre and special cases. (We'll ignore for the moment that, conceptually speaking, fiends and other planeborne races are technically a physical manifestation of a concept, and not technically actual material matter in the same sense of beings from the prime material or the inner planes, and so it's debateable if they honestly should react similarly with positive and negative energy at all, but that's another topic entirely I suppose. And besides, most gamers aren't going to want to engage in a philosophical debate about the nature of fiends and the difference between Ideal and Substance).
Khalarak Ironclaw 02-28-06, 02:28 AM	Yeah, y'know Shemmy, sometimes 'that's so kewl!!!!11!!' is all that matters. If it's fun to run, is memorable for your players, and doesn't conflict with your setting in any way that'll seriously hamper your players' enjoyment of the game, why not use it? I may be contradicting myself somehow here, but when its all said and done, all that matters is whether everyone is having fun. If that requires an undead demon or a half-fiend, vorpal-jawed, paragon albino rabbit, then go for it. I know my players at least aren't going to question something like a vrock lich if its a compelling mental image and a fun fight. *continues to ramble.....its late* Edit: And you're kind of ignoring the fact that a necromancer might attempt to raise the body of a demon for his own depraved purposes. Even if a demon despises the idea of becoming undead intentionally, many probably wouldn't have a choice in the matter. I know if I was a priestly necromancer, I'd just love a band of mummified dretches to back me up. Sure, they're slow, but their strength would make up for it. Plus, nothing says 'oooh, I'm eeeevil' like a gaunt, towering vulture-creature with sunken, firey eyes and a hankering for human flesh standing at your back.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-28-06, 02:58 AM	Yeah, y'know Shemmy, sometimes 'that's so kewl!!!!11!!' is all that matters. If it's fun to run, is memorable for your players, and doesn't conflict with your setting in any way that'll seriously hamper your players' enjoyment of the game, why not use it? If something ends up being a cool idea, that's generally something in favor of doing it, but in this case I'm more liable to lean against it in most situations (I'm not against it by default, I'd just prefer it be reserved for very specific, special cases. The wierd shouldn't become prosaic). If taken to be a normal, totally legit concept to use, I lean against it for reasons I kinda rambled on above in my previous post. Edit: And you're kind of ignoring the fact that a necromancer might attempt to raise the body of a demon for his own depraved purposes. Which is valid I suppose, but also keep in mind that I'd argue against corporeal remains being left behind by dead fiends in many instances, almost uniformly so if we're talking about the prime material, and when, if I should say, left behind on one of the lower planes (such as the Field of Nettles on the Gray Waste) they're less disti... yer gonna make me ramble again here you know *polite chuckle*
Trippinskip 02-28-06, 11:34 AM	Well I am going more towards the 'that's so kewl!!!!11!!' aspect at the moment. Not to say I am having vampire balors and demon liches running around, they will be for rare cases, 'boss men', but having some simple undead demons would work perfect for what I want, or demons that 'seem to be' undead. Skeleton quasits, zombie dretchs. Weeker demons that could be called up by a necromancer and forced into simple undead. The thought of it seems odd indeed, and generally, as Shemmy said, undeath is reserved for mortals who wish 'immortality' or whatever, but really, they don't desire the mindless undead like zombies and skeletons. That is a curse or something brought upon them by evil necromancers dragging them from the grave. Why could this type of undead not work on demons? I could see a summoner and a necromancer working side by side to do something like this. Which gives me a good idea for a plot... I don't plan on using devils, but the pit fiend even has Create undead as a spell like ability, so they obviously have a use for it, and no where near all of them visit the mortal planes. And most of their time is spent in the hells, where mortals rarely tread. If create undead was of hardly any use, it seems that they would not have it. I know by RAW it don't work that way, as others have said, and I know in the first place, but I think some exceptions could be made, especially when you look at for my campaign I am haveing a demon try to gain status as a god of undeath. Maybe some sort of artifact or something that enable him to curse demons into undeath. I'll have to think on it.
Ivellios95 03-01-06, 11:23 AM	hey trippinskip, what world will the campaign be in?
Trippinskip 03-01-06, 01:29 PM	I will be using a homebrew world, but it takes a lot of influence from Dragonlance. I don't really have the time to create a homebrew, so I mainly just took what I liked from DL, and moved a lot of stuff around. Sorta a mix of the two I suppose. But leaves me open still to fit the campaign in without any huge blocks in the way. Eventually I would like to take and flush things out and come up with a real homebrew, but it is sorta something the gaming group is working on together.