Demons and Devils: Weaker or Stronger in 3.5? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demons and Devils: Weaker or Stronger in 3.5? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
J. Grenemyer
08-04-04, 06:17 PM Hello,

I’ve seen several topics about Demons and Devils on these boards. In just about all of them a comment or two will appear stating that the comment-maker thinks Demons or Devils of a certain edition were better than in another edition.

So my questions to you are these: What criteria do you use to rate the power of a creature before you (as a DM) will use it in an encounter? Using that criteria to rate Demons and Devils as found in the 3.0 and 3.5 Monster Manuals, which edition in your opinion presents these foul beings as better in terms of (1) overall power and (2) DM usability? Are their exceptions to the overall presentation between editions, in your opinion? (That is, if you feel 3.0 did a better job with Devils in general, is their a specific Devil or two in 3.5 you feel is actually better than its 3.0 counterpart?) Do you feel the “common to all creatures” revisions help or hinder 3.5 Demons and Devils (such as the changes in facing rules and weapon size rules)?

My Take: I use CRs and my own assessment of the lethality a creature’s melee attacks and SLA-Su abilities compared to my player’s combined pool of character abilities to determine the suitability to an encounter for any given creature.

Given this criteria, I believe Demons and Devils in 3.5 to be universally better than their 3.0 cousins in terms of sheer power and usability, as I feel 3.5 did an excellent job of ending the overemphasis on SLAs, eliminating the number of useless SLAs possessed by 3.0 Demons and Devils, re-ordering SLAs and Su abilities to fit the form and theme of Demons and Devils and increasing the raw physical power for all Demons and Devils across the board.

I do not feel there are any individual 3.0 Demons or Devils that stand out as better in terms of overall power and DM-usefulness than their 3.5 cousins.

Lastly, the common 3.5 revisions have served to make Demons and Devils simply more powerful, as they enjoy a greater reach area, increased weapon damage and enjoy a much wider base of useful-during-encounters skills.

Looking forward to your own opinions and analysis!

:D

PS: I’d also like to give a shout out of thanks to everyone here that helped me with a Cornugon encounter I was having trouble with awhile back. Your advice made for a very challenging encounter. Thanks again! :)
DungeonMaster
08-04-04, 09:07 PM A good topic and well layed out. I'll try and answer point by point then we can talk about an example.

I judge a monster's overall strength primarily by the level at which it can be encountered, it's CR, within the context of the spell system because certain spells can trivialise encounters.
In essence a physical monster has much less of a chance of being a truly challenging encounter then a magical monster at the high levels of the game. Others may disagree but there are a large number of threads on the very topic of high level warriors compared to high level casters and the analogy between the two in terms of power is very good.

In terms of overall power the demons and devils of 3rd edition are vastly superior to those of 3.5 when compared side-by-side on an equal CR footing. This is a result partially of the by and large nerfed 3.5 magic system but also of a result of what appears to be a systematic removal of the variety of spell like abilities the demons and devils took. There are also a number of small but really vicious things that were removed/neutralised and the advancement system of monsters changed substantially.
In terms of ease-of-use for a DM, let's colloquialise and simply say "control", I'll 100% agree that the 3.5 demons and devils are much simpler to control. They have less abilities and many lead very naturally to a "kick-down-the-door-and-there-it-is" type of playstyle.

I'm still rather perturbed that they made the cornugon greater than the gelugon. Ice devils were the step before pit-fiend and have ever been the "least of the greater devils" to quote the AD&D Monster Manual.
The erinyes' character changed as well from what it used to be rather dramatically - in 3.5 it's sort of a fly-by-attack creature rather than it's previous edition and planescape character. (I'm not a huge fan of planescape myself but I feel for those that are).

I think some demon and devil tricks and tactics dissapeared when they neutered spells that didn't need neutering. Simple things like charm person being explicitely blocked by protection versus evil but overall they suffered more from a loss of spell like abilities than anything else.
J. Grenemyer
08-04-04, 09:37 PM Hello,

Good reply, DungeonMaster.

Anyone else?

:D
DungeonMaster
08-04-04, 10:02 PM So in a previous thread we took the example of the Gelugon.

Here they are in both editions from respective SRDs:

ICE DEVIL (GELUGON)
Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 14d8+84 (147 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 32 (–1 size, +5 Dex, +18 natural) touch 14, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple:+14/+24
Attack:Spear +20 melee (2d6+9/x3 plus slow) or claw +19 melee (1d10+6)
Full Attack:Spear +20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/x3 plus slow) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow); or 2 claws +19 melee (1d10+6) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Fear aura, slow, spell-like abilities, summon devil
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, regeneration 5, see in darkness, spell resistance 25, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves:Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +15
Abilities:Str 23, Dex 21, Con 23, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 20
Skills:Bluff +22, Climb +23, Concentration +23, Diplomacy +9, Disguise +5 (+7 acting), Intimidate +24, Jump +27, Knowledge (any three) +23, Listen +25, Move Silently +22, Search +23, Sense Motive +23, Spellcraft +23, Spot +25, Survival +6 (+8 following tracks)
Feats:Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (spear)
Challenge Rating: 13
Advancement: 15–28 HD (Large); 29–42 HD (Huge)

Combat
Fear Aura (Su): An ice devil can radiate a 10-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 22 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 13th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same ice devil’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Slow (Su): A hit from an ice devil’s tail or spear induces numbing cold. The opponent must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or be affected as though by a slow spell for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—cone of cold (DC 20), fly, ice storm (DC 19), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), persistent image (DC 20), unholy aura (DC 23), wall of ice (DC 19). Caster level 13th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an ice devil can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d6 bearded devils, 2d4 bone devils with a 50% chance of success, or another ice devil with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.
Regeneration (Ex): An ice devil takes normal damage from good-aligned weapons and from spells or effects with the good descriptor.

Gelugon
Large Outsider (Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 12d8+60 (114 hp)
Initiative: +1 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 28 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +18 natural)
Attacks: Longspear +17/+12/+7 melee
(or 2 claws +17 melee), bite +12 melee,
tail +12 melee
Damage: Longspear 1d8+9 and cold, claw 1d8+6,
bite 2d4+3, tail 3d4+3 and cold
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 10 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks:Spell-like abilities, fear aura, cold, summon devil
Special Qualities:Damage reduction 20/+2, SR 25,
fire and poison immunity, cold and acid resistance
20, see in darkness, telepathy, regeneration 5
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +14
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 13, Con 21,
Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 16
Skills: Bluff +16, Climb +20, Concentration +20,
Disguise +17, Jump +19, Knowledge (arcana) +20,
Listen +22, Move Silently +16, Search +20,
Sense Motive +20, Spellcraft +20, Spot +22
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Dodge, Power Attack
Challenge Rating: 13

Spell-Like Abilities: At will-animate dead, charm monster (DC 17), cone of cold (DC 18), desecrate, detect good, detect magic, fly, magic circle against good, major image (DC 16), polymorph self, suggestion (DC 16), teleport without error (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura (DC 20), and wall of ice (DC 17). These abilities are as the spells cast by a 13th-level sorcerer (save DC 13 + spell level).
Fear Aura (Su): As a free action, a gelugon can create an aura of fear in a 10-foot radius. It is otherwise identical with fear cast by a 13th-level sorcerer (save DC 19). If the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by that gelugon’s fear aura for one day. Other devils are immune to the aura.
Cold (Su): A hit from a gelugon’s tail or spear attack induces numbing cold. The opponent must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 21) or be affected as though by a slow spell for 1d6 rounds.
Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day a gelugon can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d6 barbazu with a 50% chance of success, 2d4 osyluths or 1d6 hamatulas with a 35% chance of success, or another gelugon with a 20% chance of success.
See in Darkness (Su): Gelugons can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by deeper darkness spells.
Telepathy (Su): Gelugons can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language.
Regeneration (Ex): Gelugons take normal damage from holy and blessed weapons of at least +2 enchantment.

Sample analysis from my viewpoint:

In 3rd edition you needed a +2 holy or blessed weapon to beat the devil's regeneration while in 3.5 you can use a good-aligned weapon or spells and effects with the holy descriptor. This is an example of the "minor tweak" but it still really reduces the creature's power!
It's DR is lower (as in all 3.5).
It can't target will saves anymore like it used to with either charm monster or suggestion, can't polymorph itself, can't desecrate then animate dead, can't even summon hamatula anymore.
It traded major image for persistant image which is better of course in terms of duration of the illusion but largely the same. It loses a lot of flexibility with the loss of polymorph self, it's fly spell is now a 3.5 fly spell.
Seeing in magical darkness is nearly pointless in 3.5 because anyone can, it's a 20% miss chance in 3.5.
Almost all the raw statistics the 3.5 devil does have better, and that does get reflected in the abilties. No doubt. The reflex save and inititative are much higher as a result of this, it has more Hp because of better con and it's DCs are by and large charisma related and that received a boost as well.

By and large it's a tougher kick-down-the-door monster, I'de say 10% tougher overall as a result of higher stats, if you just sit it in a room and have the PCs battle it.
Beyond just kicking the door down, a DM can be extremely vicious by manipulation of the polymorph ability, it can charm/suggest animal companions, familiars and well, fighters of course.
If left to it's own devices it can raise an army of undead very quickly. Even lowly undead with unholy aura can lead to significant strength damage to warriors.
It also has a greater range of spell like abilities it can garner from summoned creatures (unholy blight, order's wrath from the hamatula for instance)
In my opinion it's a decidedly greater threat than the 3.5 devil in the proper hands.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
J. Grenemyer 08-04-04, 06:17 PM	Hello, I’ve seen several topics about Demons and Devils on these boards. In just about all of them a comment or two will appear stating that the comment-maker thinks Demons or Devils of a certain edition were better than in another edition. So my questions to you are these: What criteria do you use to rate the power of a creature before you (as a DM) will use it in an encounter? Using that criteria to rate Demons and Devils as found in the 3.0 and 3.5 Monster Manuals, which edition in your opinion presents these foul beings as better in terms of (1) overall power and (2) DM usability? Are their exceptions to the overall presentation between editions, in your opinion? (That is, if you feel 3.0 did a better job with Devils in general, is their a specific Devil or two in 3.5 you feel is actually better than its 3.0 counterpart?) Do you feel the “common to all creatures” revisions help or hinder 3.5 Demons and Devils (such as the changes in facing rules and weapon size rules)? My Take: I use CRs and my own assessment of the lethality a creature’s melee attacks and SLA-Su abilities compared to my player’s combined pool of character abilities to determine the suitability to an encounter for any given creature. Given this criteria, I believe Demons and Devils in 3.5 to be universally better than their 3.0 cousins in terms of sheer power and usability, as I feel 3.5 did an excellent job of ending the overemphasis on SLAs, eliminating the number of useless SLAs possessed by 3.0 Demons and Devils, re-ordering SLAs and Su abilities to fit the form and theme of Demons and Devils and increasing the raw physical power for all Demons and Devils across the board. I do not feel there are any individual 3.0 Demons or Devils that stand out as better in terms of overall power and DM-usefulness than their 3.5 cousins. Lastly, the common 3.5 revisions have served to make Demons and Devils simply more powerful, as they enjoy a greater reach area, increased weapon damage and enjoy a much wider base of useful-during-encounters skills. Looking forward to your own opinions and analysis! :D PS: I’d also like to give a shout out of thanks to everyone here that helped me with a Cornugon encounter I was having trouble with awhile back. Your advice made for a very challenging encounter. Thanks again! :)
DungeonMaster 08-04-04, 09:07 PM	A good topic and well layed out. I'll try and answer point by point then we can talk about an example. I judge a monster's overall strength primarily by the level at which it can be encountered, it's CR, within the context of the spell system because certain spells can trivialise encounters. In essence a physical monster has much less of a chance of being a truly challenging encounter then a magical monster at the high levels of the game. Others may disagree but there are a large number of threads on the very topic of high level warriors compared to high level casters and the analogy between the two in terms of power is very good. In terms of overall power the demons and devils of 3rd edition are vastly superior to those of 3.5 when compared side-by-side on an equal CR footing. This is a result partially of the by and large nerfed 3.5 magic system but also of a result of what appears to be a systematic removal of the variety of spell like abilities the demons and devils took. There are also a number of small but really vicious things that were removed/neutralised and the advancement system of monsters changed substantially. In terms of ease-of-use for a DM, let's colloquialise and simply say "control", I'll 100% agree that the 3.5 demons and devils are much simpler to control. They have less abilities and many lead very naturally to a "kick-down-the-door-and-there-it-is" type of playstyle. I'm still rather perturbed that they made the cornugon greater than the gelugon. Ice devils were the step before pit-fiend and have ever been the "least of the greater devils" to quote the AD&D Monster Manual. The erinyes' character changed as well from what it used to be rather dramatically - in 3.5 it's sort of a fly-by-attack creature rather than it's previous edition and planescape character. (I'm not a huge fan of planescape myself but I feel for those that are). I think some demon and devil tricks and tactics dissapeared when they neutered spells that didn't need neutering. Simple things like charm person being explicitely blocked by protection versus evil but overall they suffered more from a loss of spell like abilities than anything else.
J. Grenemyer 08-04-04, 09:37 PM	Hello, Good reply, DungeonMaster. Anyone else? :D
DungeonMaster 08-04-04, 10:02 PM	So in a previous thread we took the example of the Gelugon. Here they are in both editions from respective SRDs: ICE DEVIL (GELUGON) Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) Hit Dice: 14d8+84 (147 hp) Initiative: +5 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 32 (–1 size, +5 Dex, +18 natural) touch 14, flat-footed 27 Base Attack/Grapple:+14/+24 Attack:Spear +20 melee (2d6+9/x3 plus slow) or claw +19 melee (1d10+6) Full Attack:Spear +20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/x3 plus slow) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow); or 2 claws +19 melee (1d10+6) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Fear aura, slow, spell-like abilities, summon devil Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, regeneration 5, see in darkness, spell resistance 25, telepathy 100 ft. Saves:Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +15 Abilities:Str 23, Dex 21, Con 23, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 20 Skills:Bluff +22, Climb +23, Concentration +23, Diplomacy +9, Disguise +5 (+7 acting), Intimidate +24, Jump +27, Knowledge (any three) +23, Listen +25, Move Silently +22, Search +23, Sense Motive +23, Spellcraft +23, Spot +25, Survival +6 (+8 following tracks) Feats:Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (spear) Challenge Rating: 13 Advancement: 15–28 HD (Large); 29–42 HD (Huge) Combat Fear Aura (Su): An ice devil can radiate a 10-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 22 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 13th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same ice devil’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based. Slow (Su): A hit from an ice devil’s tail or spear induces numbing cold. The opponent must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or be affected as though by a slow spell for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—cone of cold (DC 20), fly, ice storm (DC 19), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), persistent image (DC 20), unholy aura (DC 23), wall of ice (DC 19). Caster level 13th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an ice devil can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d6 bearded devils, 2d4 bone devils with a 50% chance of success, or another ice devil with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell. Regeneration (Ex): An ice devil takes normal damage from good-aligned weapons and from spells or effects with the good descriptor. Gelugon Large Outsider (Evil, Lawful) Hit Dice: 12d8+60 (114 hp) Initiative: +1 (Dex) Speed: 40 ft. AC: 28 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +18 natural) Attacks: Longspear +17/+12/+7 melee (or 2 claws +17 melee), bite +12 melee, tail +12 melee Damage: Longspear 1d8+9 and cold, claw 1d8+6, bite 2d4+3, tail 3d4+3 and cold Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 10 ft./15 ft. Special Attacks:Spell-like abilities, fear aura, cold, summon devil Special Qualities:Damage reduction 20/+2, SR 25, fire and poison immunity, cold and acid resistance 20, see in darkness, telepathy, regeneration 5 Saves: Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +14 Abilities: Str 23, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 16 Skills: Bluff +16, Climb +20, Concentration +20, Disguise +17, Jump +19, Knowledge (arcana) +20, Listen +22, Move Silently +16, Search +20, Sense Motive +20, Spellcraft +20, Spot +22 Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Dodge, Power Attack Challenge Rating: 13 Spell-Like Abilities: At will-animate dead, charm monster (DC 17), cone of cold (DC 18), desecrate, detect good, detect magic, fly, magic circle against good, major image (DC 16), polymorph self, suggestion (DC 16), teleport without error (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura (DC 20), and wall of ice (DC 17). These abilities are as the spells cast by a 13th-level sorcerer (save DC 13 + spell level). Fear Aura (Su): As a free action, a gelugon can create an aura of fear in a 10-foot radius. It is otherwise identical with fear cast by a 13th-level sorcerer (save DC 19). If the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by that gelugon’s fear aura for one day. Other devils are immune to the aura. Cold (Su): A hit from a gelugon’s tail or spear attack induces numbing cold. The opponent must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 21) or be affected as though by a slow spell for 1d6 rounds. Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day a gelugon can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d6 barbazu with a 50% chance of success, 2d4 osyluths or 1d6 hamatulas with a 35% chance of success, or another gelugon with a 20% chance of success. See in Darkness (Su): Gelugons can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by deeper darkness spells. Telepathy (Su): Gelugons can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language. Regeneration (Ex): Gelugons take normal damage from holy and blessed weapons of at least +2 enchantment. Sample analysis from my viewpoint: In 3rd edition you needed a +2 holy or blessed weapon to beat the devil's regeneration while in 3.5 you can use a good-aligned weapon or spells and effects with the holy descriptor. This is an example of the "minor tweak" but it still really reduces the creature's power! It's DR is lower (as in all 3.5). It can't target will saves anymore like it used to with either charm monster or suggestion, can't polymorph itself, can't desecrate then animate dead, can't even summon hamatula anymore. It traded major image for persistant image which is better of course in terms of duration of the illusion but largely the same. It loses a lot of flexibility with the loss of polymorph self, it's fly spell is now a 3.5 fly spell. Seeing in magical darkness is nearly pointless in 3.5 because anyone can, it's a 20% miss chance in 3.5. Almost all the raw statistics the 3.5 devil does have better, and that does get reflected in the abilties. No doubt. The reflex save and inititative are much higher as a result of this, it has more Hp because of better con and it's DCs are by and large charisma related and that received a boost as well. By and large it's a tougher kick-down-the-door monster, I'de say 10% tougher overall as a result of higher stats, if you just sit it in a room and have the PCs battle it. Beyond just kicking the door down, a DM can be extremely vicious by manipulation of the polymorph ability, it can charm/suggest animal companions, familiars and well, fighters of course. If left to it's own devices it can raise an army of undead very quickly. Even lowly undead with unholy aura can lead to significant strength damage to warriors. It also has a greater range of spell like abilities it can garner from summoned creatures (unholy blight, order's wrath from the hamatula for instance) In my opinion it's a decidedly greater threat than the 3.5 devil in the proper hands.