Demons and their kind...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demons and their kind...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Metabubbles
11-21-04, 03:26 PM Just wondering, if a demon 'summons' more demons, are they around permanently or is it like the 'summon' spell? Thanks.
feargrant
11-21-04, 03:32 PM They are only around like the summon spell. I believe it is only one hour, since then they would be able to summon.
Khan the Destroyer
11-21-04, 11:31 PM I think this is talked about in the actual ability's description. The summoned creature stays for an hour, and then returns to wherever it was summoned from. And, as has been said already, summoned creatures cannot use thier ability to summon anything until an hour has passed.
Metabubbles
11-22-04, 07:23 AM Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a hezrou can attempt to summon 4d10 dretches or another hezrou with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.

Obviously that is the description of a Hezrou, but if you take the names out and replace them with demon, they all pretty much read the same with different results. Why is that so important? 1st, it has (SP) after summon demon under "combat" which means a counterspell/dispel magic (by dispel magic I mean as they are casting it, not once in play) can stop it. 2nd, it states ability is equivalent of 4th level, that gives you the difficulty of dispelling it. 3rd, only a 35% chance of success, What?!? Who would want a summon spell that has a 65% chance of failure, and only once/day, that can be countered? So because of the drawbacks, I would argue the spell should be permament.

Rebuttal, I would also argue the spell lasts exactly like the Summon spell because the ability is listed under "combat". That seems a weaker argument but solid none the less. What do you think?
Kyy'Dakh
11-22-04, 09:54 AM Actually, I don't think spell-like abilities can be countered.
Shemeska the Marauder
11-22-04, 11:04 AM 3e changes the fiendish summoning abilities to an extent. It's both good from a player/game balance perspective, but also bad from a flavor perspective. It used to be the case in Planescape that fiends could effectively 'chain summon' by bringing in one of their kind by a summon who would then use their own summon, etc etc you can see where this is going. The ability was potentially very dangerous if they had the chance to use it effectively.

As with any game mechanic, feel free to warp it to suit your purposes. Everyone repeat after me: the rules are guidelines not divine commandments from upon high. The rules are there to support the game, not the game support the rules.
Ogre4Hire
11-22-04, 01:26 PM The "miss chance" of summoning for fiends (and Slaad, for that matter) is due to the fact that they don't like or trust each other, so it's difficult for them to get another fiend to come when they call.

Making it a permenant duration is just asking for trouble, since it means that a single Glabezru could, over the course of a year or ten, bring a massive fiendish army to the Material Plane simply by summoning more fiends at the start of every day, then having them summon more fiends, and those fiends summon more fiends... I'm sure you can see where this is headed.
Wildbulldog42
11-22-04, 01:48 PM I found the answer in to this question in the glossary of the Monster Manual (probably in the SRD too but didn't check it). The description of the Summon (Sp) ability is that it is similar to a summon monster spell but with differences. The summoned creature stays for 1 hour and can't use it's own summon ability for 1 hour (no summoning ever for the summoned creature). The spell level is given for the purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. And now for the sad part, as stated in the DM's guide, no EXP is awarded for defeating summoned creatures. :(
Phrennzy
11-22-04, 01:48 PM Summon (Sp): A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. The spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters.

There you go!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Metabubbles 11-21-04, 03:26 PM	Just wondering, if a demon 'summons' more demons, are they around permanently or is it like the 'summon' spell? Thanks.
feargrant 11-21-04, 03:32 PM	They are only around like the summon spell. I believe it is only one hour, since then they would be able to summon.
Khan the Destroyer 11-21-04, 11:31 PM	I think this is talked about in the actual ability's description. The summoned creature stays for an hour, and then returns to wherever it was summoned from. And, as has been said already, summoned creatures cannot use thier ability to summon anything until an hour has passed.
Metabubbles 11-22-04, 07:23 AM	Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a hezrou can attempt to summon 4d10 dretches or another hezrou with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell. Obviously that is the description of a Hezrou, but if you take the names out and replace them with demon, they all pretty much read the same with different results. Why is that so important? 1st, it has (SP) after summon demon under "combat" which means a counterspell/dispel magic (by dispel magic I mean as they are casting it, not once in play) can stop it. 2nd, it states ability is equivalent of 4th level, that gives you the difficulty of dispelling it. 3rd, only a 35% chance of success, What?!? Who would want a summon spell that has a 65% chance of failure, and only once/day, that can be countered? So because of the drawbacks, I would argue the spell should be permament. Rebuttal, I would also argue the spell lasts exactly like the Summon spell because the ability is listed under "combat". That seems a weaker argument but solid none the less. What do you think?
Kyy'Dakh 11-22-04, 09:54 AM	Actually, I don't think spell-like abilities can be countered.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-22-04, 11:04 AM	3e changes the fiendish summoning abilities to an extent. It's both good from a player/game balance perspective, but also bad from a flavor perspective. It used to be the case in Planescape that fiends could effectively 'chain summon' by bringing in one of their kind by a summon who would then use their own summon, etc etc you can see where this is going. The ability was potentially very dangerous if they had the chance to use it effectively. As with any game mechanic, feel free to warp it to suit your purposes. Everyone repeat after me: the rules are guidelines not divine commandments from upon high. The rules are there to support the game, not the game support the rules.
Ogre4Hire 11-22-04, 01:26 PM	The "miss chance" of summoning for fiends (and Slaad, for that matter) is due to the fact that they don't like or trust each other, so it's difficult for them to get another fiend to come when they call. Making it a permenant duration is just asking for trouble, since it means that a single Glabezru could, over the course of a year or ten, bring a massive fiendish army to the Material Plane simply by summoning more fiends at the start of every day, then having them summon more fiends, and those fiends summon more fiends... I'm sure you can see where this is headed.
Wildbulldog42 11-22-04, 01:48 PM	I found the answer in to this question in the glossary of the Monster Manual (probably in the SRD too but didn't check it). The description of the Summon (Sp) ability is that it is similar to a summon monster spell but with differences. The summoned creature stays for 1 hour and can't use it's own summon ability for 1 hour (no summoning ever for the summoned creature). The spell level is given for the purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. And now for the sad part, as stated in the DM's guide, no EXP is awarded for defeating summoned creatures. :(
Phrennzy 11-22-04, 01:48 PM	Summon (Sp): A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. The spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters. There you go!