Post/Author/DateTime	Post
iburnthings 10-14-03, 04:49 PM	Which do you prefer? give some reasons why so i can get a lively debate going. Also, even though i didn't mention it in the title(little too long) you can also pick yugoloths. Personally, I prefer demons. They have a better set of immunities, higher crs, and there's an infinite number(hence infinite layers of the abyss). EDIT- there are also hundreds of full-fledged demon princes compared to only nine lords of the nine. I'm sure there are many devils almost as powerful as the lords of the nine ( and quite a few deposed lords of the nine) wandering around but there are probably an almost equal number of powerful demons hanging around. to be fair though, a demonic invasion of the nine hells probably wouldn't get far with Tiamat guarding the first layer....
LoneWarriorAuronX 10-15-03, 08:34 PM	chris u have a charisma score of like 6... thats sad... maybe u shuldnt be so evil... anyone agree?
Kyy'Dakh 10-15-03, 10:10 PM	I tend to prefer devils over demons. From what I've seen, devils typically have more motivation to slip into a city, disguised as a mortal to manipulate events. Demons who try it tend to be the generic evil cult sort, without real intrigue. Besides, I'm chaotic good, so I prefer lawful evil villains.
L33t Angel 10-15-03, 10:14 PM	I love the 'Loths. I mean, a race of Fiends that keeps the Demons and Devils fighting! The yugoloths have the skills to play two of the most heinous races in the multiverse against each other in a never ending war. They have their fingers in every government and scheme in the entire multiverse. What's not to love about them?
Nighttfall 10-15-03, 10:19 PM	I like both, and I like Loths. But I ADORE Orcus! :) So that should tell you something.
Incenjucar 10-15-03, 10:25 PM	Originally posted by L33t Angel I love the 'Loths. I mean, a race of Fiends that keeps the Demons and Devils fighting! The yugoloths have the skills to play two of the most heinous races in the multiverse against each other in a never ending war. They have their fingers in every government and scheme in the entire multiverse. What's not to love about them? Only the fact that I can't get Shemeska to pose for a tasteful painting in the fur. :smirk:
L33t Angel 10-15-03, 10:28 PM	::Twitch, Blink:: My oh my.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-15-03, 10:31 PM	Personally, I prefer Baatezu to Tanar'ri. Mainly because the Tanar'ri have a tendency to irritate me. Summon one of the primordial deities and have him destroy my +4 Bow will you...
Rek0 10-16-03, 12:58 AM	Originally posted by iburnthings Personally, I prefer demons. They have a better set of immunities, higher crs, and there's an infinite number(hence infinite layers of the abyss). There is an infinite number of Devils also. even though there are only 9 layers of Hell, each layer is Infinate. And hey Im LN, but for some reason the only types of Fiend I hate are those blasted Gereleths !!!!! (by the way, i prefer Devils, but Orcus is Ausome) :D
ConfusedUs 10-16-03, 01:20 AM	The devils. LE is my favorite evil alignment. They're bad and they plan ahead. They don't let little things like serial killings get in the way of their goals ;)
Asta Kask 10-16-03, 08:17 AM	Originally posted by ConfusedUs The devils. LE is my favorite evil alignment. They're bad and they plan ahead. They don't let little things like serial killings get in the way of their goals ;) I agree. A Balor is great for a rampage or two, but when you need someone to plan revenge over a ten-year period, you need a Pit Fiend.
RhoxandRoll 10-16-03, 03:08 PM	Devilsssssss! I just love asmodeus.:D
primemover003 10-16-03, 03:26 PM	Well the Barbazu is my favorite fiend, so the Devils have it over Demons. Besides saying BAY-AH-TEE-ZOO is soooooo fun.
iburnthings 10-16-03, 04:09 PM	a lot of devil lovers out there.... isn't there anyone else who prefers demons? another reason why i like demons is that they are so unpredictable. a mortal army versing a demonic horde would have no idea of what to expect. demons also do a good job demoralizing the enemy because they tend to try to destroy anyone and anything in their path. Devils being lawful are a bit more predictable. if a mortal army versed a devil army you could guess their tactics( like what formation they march in) and react accordingly. this makes them seem boring to me. A mortal army would be crushed either way,though. thanks for all the feedback so far guys, lets keep this thread going. Demon lovers unite!!!!
Kalanth 10-16-03, 04:15 PM	Devils, simply because they always seemed to fit better into my campaigns. The devil always just seemed much more threatening, and much more intimidating, the Demon was always just, well, just blah.
lukelightning 10-16-03, 04:28 PM	I'm a devil man myself, but they both have important roles. I like the differences between the two, since that gives a campaign more flavor and more options. I do think demons are over-used; it just seems there's a vrock under every rock and a marilith behind every curtain. And don't get me started on succubi. Every DM should put a post-it on their Monster Manual saying "note to self: don't have every rescued maiden be a succubus in disguise." One thing I don't like about devils is how they are often played as unable to lie or break a promise. Lawful does not mean you can't lie, unless you have a "do not lie" code you are following. Only a fool would say "oh, I'll let this cornugon out of the imprisoning rectangle because he said he promised he wouldn't hurt us..."
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-16-03, 04:52 PM	I remember when the Baatezu's summon ability worked like a gate. Those were good times. (For the DM, that is.)
iburnthings 10-16-03, 05:01 PM	I do think demons are over-used; it just seems there's a vrock under every rock and a marilith behind every curtain. And don't get me started on succubi. Every DM should put a post-it on their Monster Manual saying "note to self: don't have every rescued maiden be a succubus in disguise." [sigh] That's definately not true in this thread....:( p.s. i don't hate devils( mephistopheles, dispater, and mammon are all amazing) i just prefer demons.
Nighttfall 10-16-03, 05:30 PM	I like evil. :P :) But I do hold a great love of Orcus...and Blade Demons. Oh and ferals. ;)
Dackad 10-16-03, 05:46 PM	I quite like demons. I think it will get to the point in my campaigns when the PC's will say, "Oh, another Hezrou?" I also like Demodands... especially as they're written up in the FF. - Continuous Freedom of Movement And Kelubars and Shators are immune to all energy types except Electricity and Sonic. Oh... my players hated the Kelubar. :D
Shemeska the Marauder 10-16-03, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Only the fact that I can't get Shemeska to pose for a tasteful painting in the fur. :smirk: ".... WHAT?!" :headexplo "Compliment me all you like mortal, but don't overstep your boundaries. It takes work and alot more than most have to see anything on me but my lovely face. Anything else, and well, I can't name a worthy person in the city. Though I'm sure if Unity-of-Rings would ever drop that whole stodgy 'good' thing of his, and that 'lawful' thing as well, and the whole Tyr proxy thing, he does look pretty good in that loincloth." :drool: ... *cough* "Anyways..." *glances over to Colcook* *said to the tiefling groomer-guard* "Get that length of razorvine ready, next one to suggest I pose nude gets the honor of a lynching from the spire." :angel:
Shemeska the Marauder 10-16-03, 07:13 PM	"And oh, yes, I got so wrapped up in myself I forgot to answer the question here. So easy to do you know, getting absorbed in myself. Mmm... me....":love: *twenty minutes of self worship in front of a mirror later* "And oh, Yugoloths are my favorite. That should go without saying."
verybad 10-17-03, 12:01 AM	Lot of people saying that Devils plan ahead. So do Demons (at least the smart ones). They're chaotic EVIL not chaotic STUPID.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-17-03, 12:45 AM	Sure the smart ones plan ahead. Good luck getting the rest of that Tanar'ri army under their command to both listen to those plans, and not kill each other while marching towards a Baatezu army. I really like the picture in the new 3.5 DMG that shows a scene from a Blood War battlefield. You can easily tell which side is the Tanar'ri and which side is the Baatezu (besides seeing the difference between the Balors and Pit Fiends fightning each other, and an osyluth or two scampering around behind the 'zu lines). The Baatezu ranks are just that, ranks. Ordered, rigid and moving in lockstep. The Tanar'ri army is a giant howling mob on the other hand, no organization apparent.
lukelightning 10-17-03, 09:16 AM	I figure the devil army's weakness would be a strict adherence to chain of command...so if a commander gets taken down its troops wouldn't know what to do. I can picture some discipline and order devil general spending all his time making sure his toops march in straight lines and have nice uniforms. Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Sure the smart ones plan ahead. Good luck getting the rest of that Tanar'ri army under their command to both listen to those plans, and not kill each other while marching towards a Baatezu army. the 'zu lines). The Baatezu ranks are just that, ranks. Ordered, rigid and moving in lockstep. The Tanar'ri army is a giant howling mob on the other hand, no organization apparent.
Tzor 10-17-03, 10:20 AM	For the individual devil/demon I generally prefer the Balrog ... er the Balor. ;) He's huge, he has a flaming whip and a vorpal longsword what more do you need? :D But in general I prefer the devils. They are organized and they have discipline. Demons are not chaotic stupid, but in general the methods of warfare of demons are the opposite of that of devils. Basically demon tactics is the power of overwhemling force. High casualty counts are an acceptable part of combat tactics. If you outnumber your opponent 3:1 for example, you can take losses of 2:1 because in the end you will still have troops and your enemy will be gone. The biggest problem of demons is that there are too many chiefs. Large scale organization and cooperation is completely lacking. Lack of common methods of working also causes large scals coordination to be severely lacking. This isn't a problem for the demons because of the principle of overwhelming force. Devils on the other hand work through strucutre and organization. Coordinated battle plans are common in devil combat. Keeping their casualties low and enemy casualties high will ensure victory. Devil units may often withdraw in order to allow other units to flank or to move the enemy into a location more suitable for the devils. They fight on their time, in their places and on their conditions. Even if they are outnumbered 3:1 if they can inflict casualties on a 4:1 basis they will win. Heirarchy actually exists in both groups. Demons enforce heirarchy through brute strength alone, but this leaves their leaders with a smaller area of command (as far as they can threaten their subordiates) and gives no incentive for cooperation among equals in the heirarchy. Devil heirarchy is enforced through both strength and structure. You not only have to be the strongest, you also have to work through the system.
SiuiS 10-17-03, 12:22 PM	Although in my opinion the devils are better I far prefer the tanar'ri. If Im going to be tortured for all eternity for putting acid in a paladins soup I want it done by a 6-armed snake chick.:angel: Seriously though,the tanar'ri just appeal to me more. And when it comes to evil minions, everyone thinks of demons; Devils are more the general type, and harder to command.
Dragoninawheelchair 10-17-03, 10:38 PM	Demons. Why? Because they eat you.
iburnthings 10-19-03, 12:53 PM	:bump:
Dackad 10-19-03, 01:47 PM	Originally posted by Asta Kask I agree. A Balor is great for a rampage or two, but when you need someone to plan revenge over a ten-year period, you need a Pit Fiend. Tell that to Errtu from the Drizzt books :smirk:
Lord of the Ninth 10-19-03, 02:00 PM	http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif :cool: It's all evil baby. But seriously, I prefer the Leaders of the Baatezu ( :smirk: ), but as individuals I prefer the Demons. However, I love the general concept of the Yugoloths, but I hate the way they are statted (Ultroloths are far to weak and need to be rewritten, as the Pit Fiend was rewritten). The illustration on pg 160 of the DMG is great... Oh yeah, iburnthings, I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet, but the Devils now have pretty much the same CRs as the demons since the 3.5 MM came out. Now they just need to fix the Loths and all the fiends from the BoVD and I'll be a malevolently delighted entity. http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/ed/laugh.gif
Simeon38X 10-19-03, 02:19 PM	I prefer contradictions... Risen Fiends Fallen Angels Nihilistic Axiomons Ordered Anarchists Anything that most people look at and say 'how?'...:D
Dackad 10-19-03, 02:47 PM	Originally posted by Lord of the Ninth Oh yeah, iburnthings, I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet, but the Devils now have pretty much the same CRs as the demons since the 3.5 MM came out. Now they just need to fix the Loths and all the fiends from the BoVD and I'll be a malevolently delighted entity. I'd actually say that Devils are slightly stronger than the Demons in this regard. Better AC, Better SR, and often the Devils have Regeneration which the Demons will often have a harder time getting past. I still like Demons though, Balors r0x0r! ;)
Ojin 10-19-03, 07:48 PM	I'm going to have to go with the Yugoloths on this one. As mentioned earlier, both the Baatezu and the Tanar'ri are a bit predictable in their plotting mechanisms - devils in their strict adherence to Law and demons in their random devotion to Chaos. There's just something ... <shivers> ... about a fiend who is evil for the sake of Evil (or at least unfettered by the bonds of Law or Chaos). In my experience, players seem to have a harder time dealing with the threats posed by the 'loths - not that dealing with demons and devils is any "cake-walk" either. The biggest problem with the Yugoloths is how they were converted from 2nd Edition to 3.0. They DEFINITELY need an owerhaul in 3.5. After Yugoloths, I prefer devils to demons just because of a memorable (if not traumatic) experience involving our characters, a gate, and a trio of Pit Fiends back in 1st Edition.:tantrum:
the Horc 10-20-03, 12:22 AM	Devils. Why? Erinyes are hotter than Succubi.
Lord of the Ninth 10-20-03, 12:31 AM	Plus you know, you can kiss them without having part of your very essence stolen from you. I'm told this can be a serious barrier to any serious relationship with a Sucubus. ;)
iburnthings 10-20-03, 09:36 AM	As mentioned earlier, both the Baatezu and the Tanar'ri are a bit predictable in their plotting mechanisms - devils in their strict adherence to Law and demons in their random devotion to Chaos. yeah, but you can't predict chaos. chaos is unpredictability. thats what, in my opinion, makes demons better suited to fighting. you never know what they'll do next so you can't prepare for it. If this was school and a devil wanted to fight you, he would just come knock on your door and tell you to come out. a demon on the other hand would jump through your window in the middle of the night and beat the crap out of you, or climb down your chimney, or pop out of the toilet while your taking a dump( not a pleasent thought).:uh-huh: :OMG! :uh-huh: Oh yeah, iburnthings, I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet, but the Devils now have pretty much the same CRs as the demons since the 3.5 MM came out. Now they just need to fix the Loths and all the fiends from the BoVD and I'll be a malevolently delighted entity. sorry i don't have any 3.5 books yet:tantrum:
lukelightning 10-20-03, 11:35 AM	Um, no. Lawful does not mean stupid. A devil would make a bunch of plans on how to kick your butt, while a demon would play it more by ear. Originally posted by iburnthings If this was school and a devil wanted to fight you, he would just come knock on your door and tell you to come out. a demon on the other hand would jump through your window in the middle of the night and beat the crap out of you, or climb down your chimney, or pop out of the toilet while your taking a dump( not a pleasent thought).:uh-huh: :OMG! :uh-huh:
Dackad 10-20-03, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by lukelightning Um, no. Lawful does not mean stupid. A devil would make a bunch of plans on how to kick your butt, while a demon would play it more by ear. Which means demons are more adaptable :smirk:
LoricDAHPaladin 10-20-03, 12:57 PM	I used to prefer demons, but devils are just awesome. Demons often resemble twisted animals, but devils have that more "demonic" look which I so prefer. Pit Fiends are my favourite, which is part of the reason I think Bel is so damn cool. The devils seem to be a bit more grande, in terms of physical ability and innate power they can weild. Devils have a disadvantage in numbers, but make up for it with other qualities, chief among those being organization, but I believe it is also that their over all power levels are greater. However, of the leaders, I generally prefer the Demon Princes. Orcus...now there is one BAD Freaking dude. His photo just oozes evil. Graz'zt is another that fits so well into my concept of how evil should appear. Even though he either has hyena heads or baboon heads, Demogorgon is just raw pulsing power. In the descriptions it reveals that he constantly battles with himself. If he could resolve that conflict, he just might edge Asmodious in power. Since he is divided, constantly at work maintaining what little sanity he has, he may not have the ability to focus his power to its potential. Then, there is the entropy caused by the personalities whose generated rage could be the fuel that feeds Demogorgon's power. Demogorgon could be overtuned that way, however, to the point of bursting. I dunno, just a stream of thought on that. Overall, I prefer Devils.
lukelightning 10-20-03, 01:07 PM	Well it all depents on INT and WIS....a lemure probably isn't any better at making a plan than a dretch is....and a dretch probably isn't any better at adapting than a lemure.... Originally posted by Dackad Which means demons are more adaptable :smirk:
Dackad 10-20-03, 02:25 PM	Originally posted by lukelightning Well it all depents on INT and WIS....a lemure probably isn't any better at making a plan than a dretch is....and a dretch probably isn't any better at adapting than a lemure.... I dunno, Lemures are mindless, but Dretch are just stupid. That could either be a pro or a con depending on how you look at it. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 10-20-03, 03:07 PM	Regardless of which flavor of evil is best *cough*Yugoloths*cough* I think we can all agree the time honored saying of 'evil will always win, because good is dumb.' :D
iburnthings 10-20-03, 04:36 PM	Demons often resemble twisted animals, but devils have that more "demonic" look which I so prefer. I kind of agree that most devils look cooler than demons ( balor is an exception though) but thats probably to make them seem a lot scarier. You probably wouldn't be very scared if you saw a normal snake slithering around, but if you saw a 10 foot tall 6 armed snake chick, you would. After that whenever you see a normal snake, you'd probably be reminded of the marilith you saw. same with the hezrou, vrock, gorristro, and uridezu. if you saw a devil it's image would probably haunt you for a while, but on the material plane there isn't anything that even closely resembles a devil. p.s. Hey LoricDAHPaladin, im also from N.J.:tiphat: I think we can all agree the time honored saying of 'evil will always win, because good is dumb.' :ayyyy!: :devil: :devil: :devil: :angel: :devil: :devil: :devil:
Incenjucar 10-20-03, 04:41 PM	Hrmn.. Apomps is going to get seriously depressed if he ever reads this thread... *ponders a trip to the lower planes* :smirk:
Shemeska the Marauder 10-20-03, 05:17 PM	Hah! Apomps can go (insert favorite vile act here) himself. And those obsidian triangles the Gehreleths wear, tacky. Of course, ignore the fact that I'll only say this inside Sigil, or on the lower planes when surrounded by a 'loth army or inside one of the 3 great 'loth towers. *innocent whistle* Baernaloth reject or not, a powers a power, and a Baern is still a Baern... *shiver*
Incenjucar 10-20-03, 05:54 PM	Hrmn.. considering some of the rumors about his personal habits, I'd say the worse you could tell him is to go bathe himself. That reminds me.. those blasted buzzards, the diakk.. would they be considered some sort of fiend?
Meldorian 10-20-03, 07:05 PM	Originally posted by Dackad quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Asta Kask I agree. A Balor is great for a rampage or two, but when you need someone to plan revenge over a ten-year period, you need a Pit Fiend. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tell that to Errtu from the Drizzt books [/B] Yes, and we all know how that worked out, don't we?
LoneWarriorAuronX 10-20-03, 09:52 PM	demons easily. why? simple. Graz'zt. i'd love to play him imagine the possibilities... "You will not corrupt my heart you foul..." said the femal paladin. ten minutes later "OHHHH! AHHHH! YES! OHHH PELOR YES! OH YES! HARDER! HARDER! OH YES! OHHHHHHHH! AHHHHHHH! FASTER!" mwu ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! id love to be him. but sadly im only a charisma score of 32 socerer that has the nymphs eating out of his hands. sigh...
iburnthings 10-23-03, 12:22 PM	:bump:
Rorroh Fiendhugger 01-23-04, 07:48 PM	Originally posted by iburnthings I'm sure there are many devils almost as powerful as the lords of the nine Unless the proportions changed since 2nd edition, The Lords of the Nine are quite a bit more powerful than regular Pit Fiends (which is understandable, since the others are constantly plotting to overthrow them). A common misconception is that Asmodeus, the Lord of the Ninth is just another Lord in the row. Asmodeus (also known as Ahriman) is something more than a greater god, seeing as how he (the serpent of evil law), together with Jazirian (the serpent of good law, now posing as the god of the Couatl), created the outer planes. When deciding whether the center of the universe would be good or evil, they got into a fight, in which Jazirian fled to the heavens and Ashriman (who had no wings) fell into the pit of Baator and created the Baatezu. It was only after this that gods and other beings started occupying the planes. (note that all of this information was taken from Guide to Hell, which isn't Core, so is therefor not necessarily how you decide it went in your world) The reason I like Baatezu most? Simple, when I bought the 2nd edition Monstrous Manual (which was also the very first adnd book I ever got, btw), the Pit Fiend and Abishais looked way cooler than the Balor and Marilith (both which looked fairly humanish). And yes, in the 3.5 Monster Manual the Balor does look pretty cool.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-23-04, 08:26 PM	Originally posted by Rorroh Fiendhugger Asmodeus (also known as Ahriman) is something more than a greater god, seeing as how he (the serpent of evil law), together with Jazirian (the serpent of good law, now posing as the god of the Couatl), created the outer planes. When deciding whether the center of the universe would be good or evil, they got into a fight, in which Jazirian fled to the heavens and Ashriman (who had no wings) fell into the pit of Baator and created the Baatezu. Not core and it contradicts much of the other planar creation myths, it's also been relegated from 'fact' in GtH to only rumor in the MotP. So use it if you like, but it's optional at best now. And it never said he created the Baatezu, just that some spring from his blood IIRC. The original Baatezu and Tanar'ri were both the creations of the Yugoloths, made from the flaws of law and chaos that they removed from themselves with the 'Heart of Darkness' crafted and/or used by the General of Gehenna. As well, the Baatezu are not the first inhabitants of Baator, they arrived there originally after being driven there by the 'loths and then proceeded to displace the Ancient Baatorians. Both the Baernaloths and Apomps would have a different take on the early origins of evil on the lower planes. *chuckle* The stories are not 'totally' mutually exclusive, but you need to severely tweak the Asmo myth to make that mesh with the already established utter early history of the lower planes. You'd need to put the arrival of Asmodeus (whatever you ultimately make him in your own campaign) into the timeline of Baator to account for all of that, as either a fallen being from somewhere else in the planes, sprung from the essence of Baator itself, or as one of those utter first Baatezu (or one of the 'loths that drove them to Baator.) Those last three have been speculated on before, but there's no real evidence to prove or disprove them.
primemover003 01-23-04, 09:01 PM	I'd like to cast my vote for Hordlings as worst fiend type EVAR!!! And now that I think about it, though I love Spinagons and Barbazu, I really, really dig Armanites and Goristro!!! Armanites are the original fiendish cavalry, forget the lame ass kelvazu or whatever they are from the MotP. Give me an airborn Armanite charge against those massed baatezu troops... And T-port a few Bulezu into the mix and watch the carnage begin... Anyone convert the Bulezu over yet? I think the Ghour from Monsters of Faerun were pretty lame, bring on the Bulezu!!!!!!
Shemeska the Marauder 01-23-04, 09:30 PM	Arcanaloths on Slasrath mounts hovering out of the range of most troops and blasting away with fireballs, lightning bolts, etc. The original Yugoloth artillary :) And they've yet to convert the Bulezau (sp?) over, and they need to convert the Nabassu as well.
Contrast 01-23-04, 09:34 PM	Let us noot forget the Kythons, fiendish for sure. I have always prefered the demons for variety alone. The Goristro is a personal favorite, but if you want raw killing power the Myrmyxicus or Klurichir is also good. Or bad as the case may be. And being a lunatic, I of course prefer chaos.:b:
Shemeska the Marauder 01-23-04, 10:11 PM	To be honest I'm surprised that the Kython got into the BoVD considering the umm... parallels... to the Xenomorphs from the Alien movies... And to be honest I don't like the Klurichnir, they should have just done a conversion of the Molydeus instead of somewhat morphing it into that critter.
was_fired 01-23-04, 11:23 PM	Devils overall but I will occassionally throw a demon or two into their ranks. After all there are an infinite number of them with a .001% chance of becoming lawful while still proving evil enough to survive. Thus there are an infinite number of lawful demons... I figure the devils kill more of their chaotic kin than demons thanks to organized extermination efforts. I am a fun of the succubus. Not as a real foe or anything but they can make a nice BBEG which lacks much real power.
DudeMan101 01-24-04, 12:37 AM	There are an infinate number of both demons and devils, but here are more demons then devils. There are a fininate number of infinate planes of devils, but in infinate number of infinate planes of demons. Either way, they are both infinate, int he same way that there are mroe even numbers then prime numbers, although both number sets are infinate.
Io, Lord of Wyrms 01-24-04, 05:00 AM	Actually, the strictly optional Guide of Hell said that both Asmodeus and Jarizan are greater gods, nothing higher. And it was only one theory, in one book. Dragons believe that Io created everything from void. Giants likely believe the same about Annam, and beholders about the Great Mother. My favourite fiends are the Yugoloths. As stated above, they control the lower planes behind the scenes, and can manipulate other fiends easily. They really should be more powerful - I'd expect an Arcanaloth or an Ultroloth to be much more intelligent, wise and better at spellcasting than a Pit Fiend, Shator or Balor. I also like devils. Intrigue has always been more interesting for me both historically and fictionally. Demons are a bit boring and flavourless, in my opinion. And, as a side note, if everyone likes devil and 'loths better, why do we always get about 80 new demons (overestimatation) in every book and half a new devil. Their are only so many "demonic shock troops" that you can have.
Incenjucar 01-24-04, 05:22 AM	If one wishes to see an interesting side of the tanar'ri, you need to get ahold of the comic book that came with Guide to Hell. A 'half-fiend' hero, in love with a marilith, whom is courting the favor of a balor in that nekkid way, makes a pact with two rather seedy characters of diametric manners... and you just know the Rilmani were behind it all.:D
Rorroh Fiendhugger 01-24-04, 08:05 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar If one wishes to see an interesting side of the tanar'ri, you need to get ahold of the comic book that came with Guide to Hell. A 'half-fiend' hero, in love with a marilith, whom is courting the favor of a balor in that nekkid way, makes a pact with two rather seedy characters of diametric manners... and you just know the Rilmani were behind it all.:D My Guide to Hell didn't contain a comic :( And it never said he created the Baatezu, just that some spring from his blood Imho this is the same. If a mother gives birth to a son, she created him, no?
Shemeska the Marauder 01-24-04, 08:34 AM	It wasn't 'Guide to Hell' that had the comic, it was the 'Hellbound' Box set, one of the best products ever produced for DnD, hands down. Lots of DiTerlizzi art goodness, plus the aforementioned nekkid marilith, plus an absolutely over the top scheming Arcanaloth, plus that unexpected other player in it all. Very very good stuff. And Hellbound is pretty explicit about things when it comes to the 'loths, origin of the other fiends, etc.
Mirtek 01-24-04, 09:29 AM	I prefer demons over devils, because i prefer chaos over law
Yipwyg the Mighty 01-24-04, 02:37 PM	This has already been said many times but I agree with it: A Demonic horde, while it may have intelligent leaders, will have CHAOTIC troops. The leaders command extends as far as their arms, and by the time they have engaged the Baa'tezu force, the infighting in their ranks has already destroyed a third of their force, if not more, and others in their army have just wandered off to pursue other schemes and courses. The Devil army is patient, rigid, and structured. While they are not afraid to throw their weak troops at the enemy like cannon fodder(Acceptable losses), many will sneak sround, or ambush the Demons, waiting for the right time and place to attack, in cohesion with the rest of the army. Meanwhile, as the battle takes place, and the ambush, many demons begin to break off and flee(Either out of cowardice, or out of intelligence, or both), again reducing the abyssal army's standing power. So Devils= Teh win.
Mirtek 01-25-04, 08:28 AM	Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty The Devil army is patient, rigid, and structured. While they are not afraid to throw their weak troops at the enemy like cannon fodder(Acceptable losses), many will sneak sround, or ambush the Demons, waiting for the right time and place to attack, in cohesion with the rest of the army. Meanwhile, as the battle takes place, and the ambush, many demons begin to break off and flee(Either out of cowardice, or out of intelligence, or both), again reducing the abyssal army's standing power. Senaking around and setting an ambush sounds more like chaotic, independ demons regiments would do. The devils would rather keep their armies together in strict lines. Anyway, even if the devils come out of an ambush, the tanar'ri will simply slay them and proceed to cruch the orderly ranks of the remaining devils. Annother glorius blood war victory for the demons and annother step closer to prove the absolute supremacy of chaos over law
Arilou_skiff 01-25-04, 10:11 AM	The Baatezu are plain-out better fighters than the tanar'ri. If the numbers were equal they would have won long ago. To quote GRRM: "Discipline beats numbers nine times out of ten." The problem is that the demons can keep throwing numbers at the baatezu until they reach taht "10" thingie :D "Battles are always won by the bigger battallions" and that's true. Battles are won by those who can achieve numerical superiority either by strategic means (having more men under arms) or tactical means (having more men at a particular place than the enemy) Tanar'ri excel at the former, Baatezu at the latter.
Arilou_skiff 01-25-04, 10:16 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Not core and it contradicts much of the other planar creation myths, it's also been relegated from 'fact' in GtH to only rumor in the MotP. So use it if you like, but it's optional at best now. And it never said he created the Baatezu, just that some spring from his blood IIRC. The original Baatezu and Tanar'ri were both the creations of the Yugoloths, made from the flaws of law and chaos that they removed from themselves with the 'Heart of Darkness' crafted and/or used by the General of Gehenna. As well, the Baatezu are not the first inhabitants of Baator, they arrived there originally after being driven there by the 'loths and then proceeded to displace the Ancient Baatorians. Both the Baernaloths and Apomps would have a different take on the early origins of evil on the lower planes. *chuckle* The stories are not 'totally' mutually exclusive, but you need to severely tweak the Asmo myth to make that mesh with the already established utter early history of the lower planes. You'd need to put the arrival of Asmodeus (whatever you ultimately make him in your own campaign) into the timeline of Baator to account for all of that, as either a fallen being from somewhere else in the planes, sprung from the essence of Baator itself, or as one of those utter first Baatezu (or one of the 'loths that drove them to Baator.) Those last three have been speculated on before, but there's no real evidence to prove or disprove them. Or maybe Asmodeus is himself an Ancient Baatorian that somehow survived and took control? Not that unlikely IMHO.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-25-04, 11:30 AM	Originally posted by Arilou_skiff Or maybe Asmodeus is himself an Ancient Baatorian that somehow survived and took control? Not that unlikely IMHO. I've thought that myself. It'd explain a lot. Course, then we need to find a former Lawful Good race that inhabited Mount Celestia in order to explain the ruler of the 7th layer. But if Asmodues was created by the Yugoloths, the Guardinals would have had to expel Law and Chaos from their bodies long ago.
isaac_the_mauler 01-25-04, 11:49 AM	devils, without question, are so annoying. demons rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Contrast 01-25-04, 12:25 PM	Another point: Which is more frightening; The finely tuned warmachine of rigidly organized devils, or the screaming screeching blanket of horror that is a demon horde?
Mirtek 01-25-04, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by Contrast Which is more frightening; The finely tuned warmachine of rigidly organized devils, or the screaming screeching blanket of horror that is a demon horde? The demons by far. At least the warfare of the devils is dominated by logic and pratical thinking. To some extend you can rely on them and even predict their movements. With the chaotic demons you can't count on anything! You have absolutely no clue what the will do next. They can abandon value key targets and attack to score some minor victories at unimportant places at a whim of their commanders. Defending against such a foe would be a nightmare for the commanders of the defenders.
Yipwyg the Mighty 01-25-04, 09:01 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek Senaking around and setting an ambush sounds more like chaotic, independ demons regiments would do. The devils would rather keep their armies together in strict lines. Anyway, even if the devils come out of an ambush, the tanar'ri will simply slay them and proceed to cruch the orderly ranks of the remaining devils. Annother glorius blood war victory for the demons and annother step closer to prove the absolute supremacy of chaos over law How is a well-planned ambush, or attacking an enemy's flanks, chaotic? In the PHB, it does not say: Ambushing, and attacking an enemy's flanks, is a chaotic act. If your army uses the terrain to your advantage, and hits an enemy where it has little defences, it is most likely chaotic. Rarely do lawful forces use well-coordinated surprise attacks. :smirk: I'm sorry, but it had to be said. And why do the Demons automatically slay all devils and crush all of their ranks? How? Is there a reason to this? And Mirtek, lawful does not mean predictable. The Devils will plan, but they will use tactics never seen for possibly thousands upon thousands of years, or never used before. They will still surprise the opponent, as is tactically sound. They will feint, withdraw then swarm, and by and by use every dirty trick in the book, and I imagine that the book of an immortal Pit Fiend would be very, very long. Their intelligences are as good as the greatest human sages. Just having good planning does not mean using well-known tactics. They will use every possible advantage they have to beat the enemy just a little more. Heck, a single Pit Fiend with Fortification armour could destroy an entire human army on his own, practically. But this is about Demons and Devils (And apparently Yugoloths for Shemeska, to whom I say that the GtH is just as legitimate as your supplements, and I happen to like it), not pansy, weak human armies. And having an unpredictable army is usually a bad thing. Well-laid tactics are thrown out as the whims of the soldier dictate. Key positions are abandoned so that the enemy can pour into them unabaded. Every company is fighting its own war, instead of the entire thing in perfect union and cohesion. No one knows whether they can count on anyone else to do what needs to be done, only to do random, bloodthirsty things, even if that is the one thing that must not be done in the situation. Armies disintegrate and disappear before the conquest is even half over. I agree, the screeching horde that is an abyssal army may appear more terrifying than the endless ranks moving in perfect unison to the sound of some infernal war-chant of the Baa'tezu, but I ask you this: Would it be more frightening to watch that horde approach, or be in it yourself? The propensity of of Demonic taskforces to divide or break apart then die is one of the key reasons that 666 layers of troops has not swarmed and ripped asunder 9. The Blood War would have been over in only a century, or less, had The Abyss had the same discipline and lawfulness of Baator. Well, my 0.02$. Think of it as you wish.:)
Ash Grey 01-25-04, 10:18 PM	You can plan all you want, but in the end it's how you carry out those said plans that determines whether you're lawful, neutral, or chaotic. Demons plan, but come out guns blazing. And devils overthink waaaaay to much but do too little. The loths, however, are the happy medium, knowing when to either hold'em or fold'em. That's why they have their grubby mits in everything. I love the loths. They have the forethought to actually act intelligent and not come off looking like a bunch of gibbering infernal idiots.
Factol Rhys 01-25-04, 11:04 PM	OOC: Ash Grey, technically you mean "gibbering Abyssal idiots," since baatezu are "infernal." :D Anyway, I vote for the tanar'ri. The baatezu are lawful and scheming. They're perhaps most closely described as tyranny or oppression personified. Tanar'ri are violent, seething hatret personified. They're the fiends you love to hate. The baatezu may have more efficient tactics in the Blood War, but nothing is so terrifying to mortals as the unbridled rage of the tanar'ri when fully unleashed. Perhaps that is the key to their power: they have so much capability to evoke abject terror and therefore derive power. The tanar'ri (with a few notable exceptions) don't worry about which of their allies they might offend or how to worm their way into mortal societies so that they can exert dominance and demonstrate their superiority. They're above/below all that. They have no lawful compunctions to get in their way. They want nothing more or less than to devour you screaming and begging for mercy that you will never recieve.
Ash Grey 01-25-04, 11:39 PM	*looks over past post* Hmmm, Dyslexia 1, Ash 0. Good eye Rhys. Regardless, I agree with Shemeska, Yugoloth's rule all. Let any who disagree be taken to the loths directly so that they may explain their opinion personally, and then promptly get flayed:D.
Mirtek 01-26-04, 10:19 AM	Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty How is a well-planned ambush, or attacking an enemy's flanks, chaotic? That's not chaotic. But the way you said it first i read it that individual devils or units would break out of the lines on their own to perform their own ambushs. A well planned ambush should indeed be common for devil warfare. But what's the point anyway? So the tanar'ri charge blindly into the trap and baatezu come at them from every side. Since the tanar'ri will simply cut down each and every baatezu it doesn't really matter from how many sides they will come, the tanar'ri will slaughter them and proceed to the next victory on whatever battlefiend comes randomly to their minds. :b: Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty :smirk: I'm sorry, but it had to be said. And why do the Demons automatically slay all devils and crush all of their ranks? How? Is there a reason to this? Yes, the reason if the fundamental supremacy of Chaos over Law. No matter how hard they try, Law just can't defeat Chaos. Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty And Mirtek, lawful does not mean predictable. The Devils will plan, but they will use tactics never seen for possibly thousands upon thousands of years, or never used before. They will still surprise the opponent, as is tactically sound. They will feint, withdraw then swarm, and by and by use every dirty trick in the book, and I imagine that the book of an immortal Pit Fiend would be very, very long. Their intelligences are as good as the greatest human sages. And still their actions will be dominated by logic and the accomplishing of important goals to defeat their enemies. The tanar'ri have nothing of this. No want to accomplish or conquer anything, no logic behind the way they chose their targets. Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty Heck, a single Pit Fiend with Fortification armour could destroy an entire human army on his own, practically. So could a single balor. Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty And having an unpredictable army is usually a bad thing. Well-laid tactics are thrown out as the whims of the soldier dictate. Key positions are abandoned so that the enemy can pour into them unabaded. Every company is fighting its own war, instead of the entire thing in perfect union and cohesion. No one knows whether they can count on anyone else to do what needs to be done, only to do random, bloodthirsty things, even if that is the one thing that must not be done in the situation. Armies disintegrate and disappear before the conquest is even half over. Conquest? Which conquest? Tanar'ri don't conquer. They attack and after the have taken their targets they are as likely to simply return home as to stay and fortify their positions. Tanar'Ri don't march to conquer. They march to fight and anything after the fight is absolutely unimportant. Who cares for conquered teritories? Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty The propensity of of Demonic taskforces to divide or break apart then die is one of the key reasons that 666 layers of troops has not swarmed and ripped asunder 9. Infite Layers, not 666 layers. The Abyss has an infinite number of layers. The Hell may have only 9 layers, but each of this nine layers is infinite, while each of the infinite layers of the abyss is finite. Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty The Blood War would have been over in only a century, or less, had The Abyss had the same discipline and lawfulness of Baator. Yes, but if the Tanar'Ri would ever sink down to a level where the would even consider to use order, the Blood War would have been lost in this moment to the devils. If the Tanar'Ri became lawfull, there's would be no point in fighting the devils, in this case they can just go and kiss Asmoeus' ###. Chaos is just stronger and better than Law can ever hope to be. Chaos is also much cooler and much more fun too: Just remeber the time when the Slaadi wanted to join besieged Tanar'Ri troops against attacking Baatezu, all in the name of Chaos vs. Order. But on their way to the battlefield the chaotic slaadi simply forgot why they were going and ended attacking the Tanar'Ri instead of the Baatezu. In the end the Baatzu only needed to finish of the little of what was left of the forces of Demons and Slaads after their battle. Fine, the Baatezu had annother minor victory, unimportant in an infinite war with infinite troops over inifinte areas at this day, but the Chaotic side just had so much fun instead. When was Law ever just nearly as much fun?
green_yawgmoth 01-27-04, 10:47 PM	I like them both. Devils have the "cool, sophisticated" kind of evil, which I love. But demons have the "I cause pain because it's fun" kind of evil, which is always a good time. But since IMC we'll be going for the kill of Orcus, Asmodeus, and possibly Mephistopheles (it's an epic game. VERY epic), I'd have to go with devils.
eonblueapocalypse 01-28-04, 02:51 AM	Here are some things that I would like to point out. As stated before, Chaotic Evil does not mean Chaotic Stupid, Demons WILL flank, WILL use stealth, and WILL use stratigy, but Demons are also likely to flea, break ranks, fight eachother, etc. You guys are also forgetting that if Demons fight in armies, they usually fight for a reason, and that reason is...fear. If I were a Hezrou (or any other type of demon for that matter) in Orcus' (or any other powerful demon lord for that matter as well) army I sure as hell would not disobey him. My point is just because Demons dont fight in form or rank it doesnt mean that they dont plan, most types of demons do have at least a decent Int and Wis score. As for the Devils, they plan as well, and they WILL flank, WILL use stealth, and WILL use stratigy. They are also more likely not to flea etc. but their order can be used agains them if the commander of the opposite army plans well enough, but then again, devils usually have a back up plan just in case Yes, the reason if the fundamental supremacy of Chaos over Law. No matter how hard they try, Law just can't defeat Chaos. Yup, too bad you forgot to include that fact that no matter how hard they try Chaos just cant defeat Law. Its a never ending cycle, thats the reason that the blood war has been going on for so long and the reason why it will never end Conquest? Which conquest? Tanar'ri don't conquer. They attack and after the have taken their targets they are as likely to simply return home as to stay and fortify their positions. I would like to focus on the "and after they have taken their targets" section of this. If not readily aparant that is conquering. As for demons not conquering, the whole reason Demon Lords have armies is to conquer. Finally the blood war is not about taking anything other than the life of the Demons/Devils mortal enemies. So as for whos better Demons/Devils its all down to personaly preferance because in the game they are damn near equal (much to their dismay). As for the Demodands, useless retches who should never be able to leave their horrible exile on Carceri. Finally as for the 'loths I would like to clearify that they do not "control" the blood war, they simply "use" it to gain supremicy (unbeknownst to the other fiends). Although I do greatly admire any one who is crafty enough to dupe the Demons and Devils. {Tips hat twords Shemeska} May you one day recieve the title of "General of Gehanna" of at least Onioloth. Later
Shemeska the Marauder 01-28-04, 02:58 AM	Originally posted by eonblueapocalypse Finally as for the 'loths I would like to clearify that they do not "control" the blood war, they simply "use" it to gain supremicy (unbeknownst to the other fiends). Although I do greatly admire any one who is crafty enough to dupe the Demons and Devils. {Tips hat twords Shemeska} May you one day recieve the title of "General of Gehanna" of at least Onioloth. *tips razorvine tiara back* (btw, awesome board handle, is it a reference to the Tool / Melvins collaboration song of the same name?)
eonblueapocalypse 01-28-04, 03:05 AM	(btw, awesome board handle, is it a reference to the Tool / Melvins collaboration song of the same name?) Yeah, great band, good song, cool sounding. It just kinda fit...
Mirtek 01-28-04, 06:23 AM	Originally posted by eonblueapocalypse As stated before, Chaotic Evil does not mean Chaotic Stupid, Demons WILL flank, WILL use stealth, and WILL use stratigy, Actually no, they don't. Hellbound: The Blood War, best supplement ever if you want to know anything about the war, says so. Even the most clever high up demons simply forsake every considerations and planings when it comes to the blood war. Commanders send their hordes with glee screaming charging into devil traps, even traps the devils used before and the commanders do know. They don't care enough. The devils regulary use some of the same tactics they used a thousand times before, because the still work time and again - the demons just don't care enough to alter their screaming charges. And still: Devil armies are defeated as often (IMO: certainly even more often) as the demons are defeated.
eonblueapocalypse 01-28-04, 01:49 PM	Actually no, they don't. Actually no, your wrong, although demons may charge in wildly Demons will use their abilities stratigicaly. Demons are not mindless beasts (most of them being more intelligent than the average human). Look at Succubi (although this example doesnt work with the Blood War) there whole stratigy relies on stealth and guile. Look at the Babau (this one does work for the Blood War), according to what you say, rather than using their great knack for stealth they would blindly charge in exposing their semi-weak physical bodies. Almost every Demon in the MM (as well as in any of the other books) has stratigies they use to help them win, hell it says in the MM that Mariliths are usually tacticians. The problem with Demons is that fact that they dont work well together, but thats not to say that they dont, just not often. The point im trying to get by is that Demons will use stratigy, although noot as often, or effective as the Devils. Hellbound: The Blood War, best supplement ever if you want to know anything about the war, says so. I agree that it was a good supplement. But thats not to say that individual Demons wont use their own stratigies. As stated before, if a Babau is in this charge then he is most likely to try to use his own skills/abilities to his advantage, namely stealth. What im trying to say is that in the Blood War even if the Demons dont work together they will use their own individual stratigies. Even the most clever high up demons simply forsake every considerations and planings when it comes to the blood war. Commanders send their hordes with glee screaming charging into devil traps, even traps the devils used before and the commanders do know. They don't care enough. You would too if you were in command of an expendable army who inhabitants would more than likely kill you if they got the chance :D The devils regulary use some of the same tactics they used a thousand times before, because the still work time and again - the demons just don't care enough to alter their screaming charges. That doesnt mean that, say, a Balor wouldent use his Teleport ability if in the middle of an ambush to get into a better position to kill stuff. And again would you care about your troops if they were just as big of an enemy as the opponent your trying to fight. And still: Devil armies are defeated as often (IMO: certainly even more often) as the demons are defeated. Which is why the Blood War goes on and on. Stupid fiends lol.
Favoredofthefive 01-28-04, 01:57 PM	demons are better why? one word... SUCCUBUS
Shemeska the Marauder 01-28-04, 04:14 PM	Originally posted by Favoredofthefive demons are better why? one word... SUCCUBUS *sullen glare* Tanar'ri hussies...:tantrum: *very 'lothy preen*
ieattrollsforbreakfast 01-28-04, 05:03 PM	You know what I like the most? Archons *hides* Anyway on the evil outsiders, it has to be devils. I have always liked my villains to be scheming. IMO it makes the villain a much scarier adversary, since they could have planned anything to stop you in your tracks. The chaotic demons would probably hide, spring out at you, and hope for the best (at least in small numbers anyway.) Also, I find the idea of a lawful army much scarier than a chaotic army. The lawful regiments, all lined up and charging together in perfect synchrony, will certainly make any adventurer think "hang on, these things might actually know what they are doing", rather than with demons, although totally wrong, they might think "what do they know about war? they are all just charging right for us!". I'll admit both images are pretty scary, but the devils have the title for me. And yugoloths? meh.
Contrast 01-28-04, 05:24 PM	Originally posted by Yipwyg the Mighty I agree, the screeching horde that is an abyssal army may appear more terrifying than the endless ranks moving in perfect unison to the sound of some infernal war-chant of the Baa'tezu, but I ask you this: Would it be more frightening to watch that horde approach, or be in it yourself? If critical retort exists, the above surely is one. Touche Yipwyg.
Factol Rhys 01-28-04, 07:42 PM	For me, it comes down to what each type of fiend wants. Gehreleths are probably the simplest. They want to destroy everything they can. If everyone dies, they're all the happier. Yugoloths want to corrupt you. They would love to see you fall from grace and become as depraved and heartless as they are. They want everyone to give in to their dark side and embrace the loathing and greed that drive them. Baatezu want to own you. They want to trap you into an eternity of pathetic servitude and misery. They want to make you wish you were dead, and then make you live on in absolute wretched dispair. They want to rule everyone and if you don't like it, that's all the better. Tanar'ri, though, just want to kill and cause pain. They don't exist to serve some "noble" purpose like promoting the tanar'ri race, as is the case with the self-absorbed baatezu. Nobody can quite extract the deep choking fear that the tanar'ri can. Nothing can withstand the fury of their mindless raging power. Why do they kill? Because they like to kill. It fuels their rage. It expresses the pulsing black hatred that boils in the core of their being. They want to terrorize you, to hurt everyone that they can. They have even less pity than they do purpose. They are the epitome of vileness, the incarnation of endless violence and hopeless rage against everything beautiful and happy. They want to extinguish every spark of life from the multiverse. And they don't care what happens. The tanar'ri don't fight each other so they can amass political power or wealth. They don't fight the baatezu because they are convinced that theirs is the superior race. They simply hate all that they see and are driven by a primal instinct to inflict pain whenever they can. You can't reason with them because you have nothing they want. It's like I said before, they want nothing more or less than to devour you screaming and begging for mercy that you will never recieve.
Contrast 01-28-04, 09:34 PM	Originally posted by Factol Rhys Tanar'ri, though...It's like I said before, they want nothing more or less than to devour you screaming and begging for mercy that you will never recieve. Exactly why I play a half fiend of demonic lineage rather than diabolic. Excellent argument. Very powerful.
Contrast 01-28-04, 09:42 PM	Has it occured to anyone else that this very forum is vaguely remeniscent of the Abyss?
Arilou_skiff 01-29-04, 05:57 AM	Originally posted by ieattrollsforbreakfast You know what I like the most? Archons *hides* Anyway on the evil outsiders, it has to be devils. I have always liked my villains to be scheming. IMO it makes the villain a much scarier adversary, since they could have planned anything to stop you in your tracks. The chaotic demons would probably hide, spring out at you, and hope for the best (at least in small numbers anyway.) Also, I find the idea of a lawful army much scarier than a chaotic army. The lawful regiments, all lined up and charging together in perfect synchrony, will certainly make any adventurer think "hang on, these things might actually know what they are doing", rather than with demons, although totally wrong, they might think "what do they know about war? they are all just charging right for us!". I'll admit both images are pretty scary, but the devils have the title for me. And yugoloths? meh. Me too, it's more frightening to see the Ranks of Evil close up and like a well-oiled machine proceed to smash you into smithereens than a bunch of maniacs. Baator is the ultimate dysotopia, the Abyss is just a very nasty place. Their brands of horror is very different, to use sci-fi analogies the tanar'ri are the Xenomorphs from Alien while the Baatezu are the Empire...
Noctaris Aquilas 01-29-04, 01:24 PM	Devils by far. They have three Stanley Cups to their credit (NHL, Hockey Championships, 1995, 2000 & 2003, their only loss came in 2001). Demons only have one loss championship to show. (XFL, Football, 2001) … Seriously, There is no better. If there were, the war would be over by now. One can’t be better because they don’t have the numbers. The other can’t because they don’t have the discipline. Throw in the manipulation of the yugoloths and that question will never be answered. Personally, I prefer the yugoloths. Any race that is weaker (stats wise) and caught in an endless battle between two powerful forces, doesn’t get crushed from boths side, and actually thrives from it gets my respect.
Factol Rhys 01-29-04, 04:18 PM	Baator is the ultimate dysotopia, the Abyss is just a very nasty place. Their brands of horror is very different, to use sci-fi analogies the tanar'ri are the Xenomorphs from Alien while the Baatezu are the Empire... And what's scarier? Grand Moff Tarkin's evil chuckle, or a chitinous black beast impaling you on its bladed tail and then tearing your chest open while it smashes your skull in with its jaw-like appendage?