Demons vs Devils usage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demons vs Devils usage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elric Lornhood
05-29-06, 12:26 AM With Hordes of the Abyss coming out, I started wondering why, as far as I can tell in thinking back a ways, D&D loves using demons out the wazoo, yet but for Paladin In Hell devils get the shaft? Anyone have any theories or am I wrong. If so, point me to these great devil uses. Please.
And how about all of you. Which do you like using more as DM's, or fighting against more as players, and why?
Shemeska the Marauder
05-29-06, 02:19 AM Not really.

In terms of page count of material written about them through 1e/2e/3e, it's about equal for Tanar'ri / Yugoloths / Baatezu.

It's really only in 3e that any sort of disparity in usage of the various fiends has appeared, and then purely for obtuse reasons (prior to recently, it was largely forbidden to use monsters outside of the core MM, even when it didn't make sense in context, so you don't see many yugoloths or demodands used in modules, etc. Though the reason for the yugoloths not being in the MM were apparently purely for reasons of page space and nothing more, they were in fact originally intended to be there. Design ideology shot itself in the foot.)
Mr.Black
05-29-06, 03:06 AM I'm sure the devils will get some press with the Fiendish Codex II, and eventually the rest of the yugoloths will be updated to 3.5.

I'm not sure if the people at Wizards have something for demons or not (maybe they're consorting with Glabrezu?) but I have seen a lot of demons in use lately. In MMII there was a balance of demons, devils, and yugoloths. In Fiend Folio there were a lot more demons than devils and the demodands. In MMIII there were two new demons, no devils and three updated yugoloths. There are usually fiends in every new monster book, but the demons have yet to be ignored.

The demons have also received attention in Dragon magazine with the Demonomicon articles and will probably get more coverage through the upcoming "Savage Tide" adventure series, although this is mere speculation.

Overall, I think this is just mere coincidence and eventually the other fiends will get their due.

Although I wouldn't be suprised if we get four new demons in MMIV and a CR 12 arcanaloth with a 16 charisma. :rolleyes:
Guennarr
05-29-06, 10:45 AM In MMII there was a balance of demons, devils, and yugoloths. In Fiend Folio there were a lot more demons than devils and the demodands. In MMIII there were two new demons, no devils and three updated yugoloths. There are usually fiends in every new monster book, but the demons have yet to be ignored.

I guess I am a bit old fashioned. I still refer to these fiends as devils or demons. Yugoloths, demodands, glabrezu... Can anybody point out to me how these expressions came into being and how to classify fiends in 3rd edition? Are the latter neutral evil fiends?

I own MM I - III and FF, but I am still not grasping the differences apart from the simple fact that demons are chaotic, whereas devils are lawful. If there is any systematic to it, I didn't grasp it. Can anybody give me a short summary of the differences between the fiend races? (-> I am not expecting anything like a summary of Fiendish Codex ;-) ).

Thanks in advance!
Günther

P.S.
Btw. I also observed an overweight of demons over devils in 3rd edition published material. Shemeska's reasonings sound reasonable, though.
concerro
05-29-06, 11:05 AM I guess I am a bit old fashioned. I still refer to these fiends as devils or demons. Yugoloths, demodands, glabrezu... Can anybody point out to me how these expressions came into being and how to classify fiends in 3rd edition? Are the latter neutral evil fiends?

I own MM I - III and FF, but I am still not grasping the differences apart from the simple fact that demons are chaotic, whereas devils are lawful. If there is any systematic to it, I didn't grasp it. Can anybody give me a short summary of the differences between the fiend races? (-> I am not expecting anything like a summary of Fiendish Codex ;-) ).

Thanks in advance!
Günther

P.S.
Btw. I also observed an overweight of demons over devils in 3rd edition published material. Shemeska's reasonings sound reasonable, though.

Are you asking for differences in abilities and powers or their thinking process?
Shemeska the Marauder
05-29-06, 11:51 AM I guess I am a bit old fashioned. I still refer to these fiends as devils or demons. Yugoloths, demodands, glabrezu... Can anybody point out to me how these expressions came into being and how to classify fiends in 3rd edition? Are the latter neutral evil fiends?

What were considered 'Daemons' in 1st edition, have in 2e and 3e been called Yugoloths. This change was first made in the 2e Monstrous Compendium, Outer Planes Appendix, about two years after 2e came out. The Yugoloths/Daemons in 1e had virtually no details (then again, neither did demons or devils), and their history and lore was largely fleshed out in the various 2e Planescape products (Such as 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' which is usually held to be the best source of material among any edition covering the fiend races).

Yugoloths are the primary NE fiend race, and are native to the Gray Waste, Gehenna, and Carceri. They also seem to have been the creators of the first Tanar'ri and Baatezu (though if this was intentional or incidental is an open question).

Demodands are from 1st edition, though they didn't have any real detail until 2e when they were referred to as Gehreleths. 3e changed their name back to Demodands in a moment of 1e nostalgia. Demodands/Gehreleths were created by an exiled Baernaloth (the primordial race of NE fiends that created the yugoloths) named Apomps the Triple Aspected. His creations were somewhere between NE and CE, as befits them in their voluntary exile in Carceri.

Glabrezu are a type of Tanar'ri (Demon).
Mr.Black
05-29-06, 03:21 PM Can anybody give me a short summary of the differences between the fiend races? (-> I am not expecting anything like a summary of Fiendish Codex ;-) ).

Thanks in advance!
Günther

There are some differences besides the lawful versus chaotic alignment between the fiends. Devils are usually portrayed as tyrannical and rigid. Demons are portrayed as psychopaths (but please don't think that chaotic evil means mindless!). In mechanical terms, devils have no electricity resistance but are immune to fire. Demons are immune to electricity. Devils usually have a higher AC and SR for their CR than demons. Demons have REALLY high con scores and usually more hp than devils of the same CR. Devils can see in darkness, but higher level demons usually have access to see invisible or true seeing.

The most interesting thing I've found is that devils usually have the classic gargoyle look, while most demons have some sort of animalistic quality, a mark of the beast I guess. This is not true of all demons and devils, however.

Yugoloths are evil mercenaries. They don't have a trademark appearance.

Demodands are wardens of the prison plane, Carceri. Morbidly obese seems to be a very popular look for them.
The Colonel
05-29-06, 05:13 PM Bear in mind that, demons being highly chaotic, there are probably a much greater variety of types. And not all of them are Tan'ari.
Guennarr
05-29-06, 07:18 PM Again thank you very much for your answers so far.

I see that some of the knowledge was unavailable to me because I started playing at 2nd edition and never played Planescape (unfortunately! by then classical settings were still very new and exciting for me).

I realize by your answers that there is more than one demon race, but I never grasped the difference between daemon and demon. If I understood your correctly, there are demons (c), daemons/ yugoloths, their creators the baernaloths, demodands/ gehreleths (all n), and devils/tanaris (l).

I don't mistake chaotic for stupid, neither lawful for always for well planing... So your reasonings about demon and devil behaviour makes sense to me, too.

I am looking forward to how the new volumes on Demons and Devils will be like. If they should disappoint there is surely still a downloadable pdf of that Planescape supplement available at one of the pdf shopping sites.

Greetings,
Günther
Shemeska the Marauder
05-29-06, 10:18 PM I realize by your answers that there is more than one demon race, but I never grasped the difference between daemon and demon. If I understood your correctly, there are demons (c), daemons/ yugoloths, their creators the baernaloths, demodands/ gehreleths (all n), and devils/tanaris (l).

To clarify, Tanar'ri are the primary race of demons, and Baatezu are the primary race of devils (Kytons and Ancient Baatorians are other races of devils).
Ront Iron-Roar
05-30-06, 09:32 AM Anywho, back to the first question asked on this thread.

I guess I prefer and use Devils more. Do to me and my friend in our trading off of DMing we've had two reoccuring villians. Both of them were advanced Hamatula with class levels. One a Wizard and one a fighter and both of them have had some interesting things done to the party I played Ront in.

The first of which was the Hamatula wizard employing the party at 2nd level and having them go out and search for this artifact. A small black box that unknown to the party housed his trapped companion along with a very wicked Greatsword the Barbarian in our party later named Grim. So anyways, the Hamatula in the guise of a human wizard gave the heroes thier instructions and they went off. After a few fights with Ogres, Kobolds, and stuff like that on the mainland. They voyaged across the sea to this island only to fight Sahuagin on the beach, Drider in the Jungles, Undead in the ruins, and several various outsiders of varying power before entering a dark room etched with runes and etc. Unfortunately, the Barbarian suspicious of the Wizard intentions and magic in general opens the box and releases the Hamatula. Needless, to say I'm glad that was back in 3rd edition or else our characters would have been dead from the barbed defense and significantly larger claw attacks of the 3.5 update. That an the various pillars in the room offered enough cover to dodge the scorching rays.

But, anyways we kill the thing and limp back to the boat and head back only to be attack by the wizard when he sees the sword strapped to the barbarian. Once more circumstance spared us because the wizard couldn't change form in the middle of the tavern. So he ended up escaping only to come back later on with his brother again. (We're in Faerun so we go by the banishment rule on killing fiends away from thier homeplane.) Though, fortunately that time we were higher level and more experienced. Ront and Kiev (The Barbarian) ended up killing the fighter first off and then the Sorcerer, Xavier along with Kiev and Ront were able to finish off the more powerful wizard hamatula. But, this was after fighting a bunch of Kytons, a Imp at the command of dozens of traps, a pack of Hellcats, and a Half-Fiend Fire Giant that knocked Ront down with two criticals.

There's more to the story but I think you guys have heard me rant long enough.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elric Lornhood 05-29-06, 12:26 AM	With Hordes of the Abyss coming out, I started wondering why, as far as I can tell in thinking back a ways, D&D loves using demons out the wazoo, yet but for Paladin In Hell devils get the shaft? Anyone have any theories or am I wrong. If so, point me to these great devil uses. Please. And how about all of you. Which do you like using more as DM's, or fighting against more as players, and why?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-29-06, 02:19 AM	Not really. In terms of page count of material written about them through 1e/2e/3e, it's about equal for Tanar'ri / Yugoloths / Baatezu. It's really only in 3e that any sort of disparity in usage of the various fiends has appeared, and then purely for obtuse reasons (prior to recently, it was largely forbidden to use monsters outside of the core MM, even when it didn't make sense in context, so you don't see many yugoloths or demodands used in modules, etc. Though the reason for the yugoloths not being in the MM were apparently purely for reasons of page space and nothing more, they were in fact originally intended to be there. Design ideology shot itself in the foot.)
Mr.Black 05-29-06, 03:06 AM	I'm sure the devils will get some press with the Fiendish Codex II, and eventually the rest of the yugoloths will be updated to 3.5. I'm not sure if the people at Wizards have something for demons or not (maybe they're consorting with Glabrezu?) but I have seen a lot of demons in use lately. In MMII there was a balance of demons, devils, and yugoloths. In Fiend Folio there were a lot more demons than devils and the demodands. In MMIII there were two new demons, no devils and three updated yugoloths. There are usually fiends in every new monster book, but the demons have yet to be ignored. The demons have also received attention in Dragon magazine with the Demonomicon articles and will probably get more coverage through the upcoming "Savage Tide" adventure series, although this is mere speculation. Overall, I think this is just mere coincidence and eventually the other fiends will get their due. Although I wouldn't be suprised if we get four new demons in MMIV and a CR 12 arcanaloth with a 16 charisma. :rolleyes:
Guennarr 05-29-06, 10:45 AM	In MMII there was a balance of demons, devils, and yugoloths. In Fiend Folio there were a lot more demons than devils and the demodands. In MMIII there were two new demons, no devils and three updated yugoloths. There are usually fiends in every new monster book, but the demons have yet to be ignored. I guess I am a bit old fashioned. I still refer to these fiends as devils or demons. Yugoloths, demodands, glabrezu... Can anybody point out to me how these expressions came into being and how to classify fiends in 3rd edition? Are the latter neutral evil fiends? I own MM I - III and FF, but I am still not grasping the differences apart from the simple fact that demons are chaotic, whereas devils are lawful. If there is any systematic to it, I didn't grasp it. Can anybody give me a short summary of the differences between the fiend races? (-> I am not expecting anything like a summary of Fiendish Codex ;-) ). Thanks in advance! Günther P.S. Btw. I also observed an overweight of demons over devils in 3rd edition published material. Shemeska's reasonings sound reasonable, though.
concerro 05-29-06, 11:05 AM	I guess I am a bit old fashioned. I still refer to these fiends as devils or demons. Yugoloths, demodands, glabrezu... Can anybody point out to me how these expressions came into being and how to classify fiends in 3rd edition? Are the latter neutral evil fiends? I own MM I - III and FF, but I am still not grasping the differences apart from the simple fact that demons are chaotic, whereas devils are lawful. If there is any systematic to it, I didn't grasp it. Can anybody give me a short summary of the differences between the fiend races? (-> I am not expecting anything like a summary of Fiendish Codex ;-) ). Thanks in advance! Günther P.S. Btw. I also observed an overweight of demons over devils in 3rd edition published material. Shemeska's reasonings sound reasonable, though. Are you asking for differences in abilities and powers or their thinking process?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-29-06, 11:51 AM	I guess I am a bit old fashioned. I still refer to these fiends as devils or demons. Yugoloths, demodands, glabrezu... Can anybody point out to me how these expressions came into being and how to classify fiends in 3rd edition? Are the latter neutral evil fiends? What were considered 'Daemons' in 1st edition, have in 2e and 3e been called Yugoloths. This change was first made in the 2e Monstrous Compendium, Outer Planes Appendix, about two years after 2e came out. The Yugoloths/Daemons in 1e had virtually no details (then again, neither did demons or devils), and their history and lore was largely fleshed out in the various 2e Planescape products (Such as 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' which is usually held to be the best source of material among any edition covering the fiend races). Yugoloths are the primary NE fiend race, and are native to the Gray Waste, Gehenna, and Carceri. They also seem to have been the creators of the first Tanar'ri and Baatezu (though if this was intentional or incidental is an open question). Demodands are from 1st edition, though they didn't have any real detail until 2e when they were referred to as Gehreleths. 3e changed their name back to Demodands in a moment of 1e nostalgia. Demodands/Gehreleths were created by an exiled Baernaloth (the primordial race of NE fiends that created the yugoloths) named Apomps the Triple Aspected. His creations were somewhere between NE and CE, as befits them in their voluntary exile in Carceri. Glabrezu are a type of Tanar'ri (Demon).
Mr.Black 05-29-06, 03:21 PM	Can anybody give me a short summary of the differences between the fiend races? (-> I am not expecting anything like a summary of Fiendish Codex ;-) ). Thanks in advance! Günther There are some differences besides the lawful versus chaotic alignment between the fiends. Devils are usually portrayed as tyrannical and rigid. Demons are portrayed as psychopaths (but please don't think that chaotic evil means mindless!). In mechanical terms, devils have no electricity resistance but are immune to fire. Demons are immune to electricity. Devils usually have a higher AC and SR for their CR than demons. Demons have REALLY high con scores and usually more hp than devils of the same CR. Devils can see in darkness, but higher level demons usually have access to see invisible or true seeing. The most interesting thing I've found is that devils usually have the classic gargoyle look, while most demons have some sort of animalistic quality, a mark of the beast I guess. This is not true of all demons and devils, however. Yugoloths are evil mercenaries. They don't have a trademark appearance. Demodands are wardens of the prison plane, Carceri. Morbidly obese seems to be a very popular look for them.
The Colonel 05-29-06, 05:13 PM	Bear in mind that, demons being highly chaotic, there are probably a much greater variety of types. And not all of them are Tan'ari.
Guennarr 05-29-06, 07:18 PM	Again thank you very much for your answers so far. I see that some of the knowledge was unavailable to me because I started playing at 2nd edition and never played Planescape (unfortunately! by then classical settings were still very new and exciting for me). I realize by your answers that there is more than one demon race, but I never grasped the difference between daemon and demon. If I understood your correctly, there are demons (c), daemons/ yugoloths, their creators the baernaloths, demodands/ gehreleths (all n), and devils/tanaris (l). I don't mistake chaotic for stupid, neither lawful for always for well planing... So your reasonings about demon and devil behaviour makes sense to me, too. I am looking forward to how the new volumes on Demons and Devils will be like. If they should disappoint there is surely still a downloadable pdf of that Planescape supplement available at one of the pdf shopping sites. Greetings, Günther
Shemeska the Marauder 05-29-06, 10:18 PM	I realize by your answers that there is more than one demon race, but I never grasped the difference between daemon and demon. If I understood your correctly, there are demons (c), daemons/ yugoloths, their creators the baernaloths, demodands/ gehreleths (all n), and devils/tanaris (l). To clarify, Tanar'ri are the primary race of demons, and Baatezu are the primary race of devils (Kytons and Ancient Baatorians are other races of devils).
Ront Iron-Roar 05-30-06, 09:32 AM	Anywho, back to the first question asked on this thread. I guess I prefer and use Devils more. Do to me and my friend in our trading off of DMing we've had two reoccuring villians. Both of them were advanced Hamatula with class levels. One a Wizard and one a fighter and both of them have had some interesting things done to the party I played Ront in. The first of which was the Hamatula wizard employing the party at 2nd level and having them go out and search for this artifact. A small black box that unknown to the party housed his trapped companion along with a very wicked Greatsword the Barbarian in our party later named Grim. So anyways, the Hamatula in the guise of a human wizard gave the heroes thier instructions and they went off. After a few fights with Ogres, Kobolds, and stuff like that on the mainland. They voyaged across the sea to this island only to fight Sahuagin on the beach, Drider in the Jungles, Undead in the ruins, and several various outsiders of varying power before entering a dark room etched with runes and etc. Unfortunately, the Barbarian suspicious of the Wizard intentions and magic in general opens the box and releases the Hamatula. Needless, to say I'm glad that was back in 3rd edition or else our characters would have been dead from the barbed defense and significantly larger claw attacks of the 3.5 update. That an the various pillars in the room offered enough cover to dodge the scorching rays. But, anyways we kill the thing and limp back to the boat and head back only to be attack by the wizard when he sees the sword strapped to the barbarian. Once more circumstance spared us because the wizard couldn't change form in the middle of the tavern. So he ended up escaping only to come back later on with his brother again. (We're in Faerun so we go by the banishment rule on killing fiends away from thier homeplane.) Though, fortunately that time we were higher level and more experienced. Ront and Kiev (The Barbarian) ended up killing the fighter first off and then the Sorcerer, Xavier along with Kiev and Ront were able to finish off the more powerful wizard hamatula. But, this was after fighting a bunch of Kytons, a Imp at the command of dozens of traps, a pack of Hellcats, and a Half-Fiend Fire Giant that knocked Ront down with two criticals. There's more to the story but I think you guys have heard me rant long enough.