Demons Weaker Than Devils? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demons Weaker Than Devils? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Thane
03-06-04, 11:15 AM Why are demons/tanar'ri weaker than devils/baatezu? It seems like a big oversight in my opinion. Devils can see in darkness as a class, demons CAN'T (even though the Babau can cast darkness at will)? Major devils regenerate and have fear auras, demons DON'T? Devils generally have higher AC and higher SR than their demonic counterparts.
What gives? Demons that don't project fear (a 20' Nalfeshnee isn't scary enough?), don't regenerate, and can get blinded in their own evil darkness? WHAT IS THIS???
Mordeth
03-06-04, 12:18 PM Devils have always been a bit more powerful than demons, using power and cunning to fight the blood war as the demonic forces relied on thier infinite numbers to keep the whole thing at more or less a stalemate. And most devils can win a 1 on 1 encounter with their demonic counter part.
This is probably the reason for the differances between the two. Regardless of whether or not they make since.
Nightshade22
03-06-04, 12:18 PM check
1: the CRs
2: more carfully, also see in the front of the MM, Under "Outsider". "Unless noted otherwise, outsiders have darkvision with a range of 60 feet. "
3: note Tanar'i'i are immune to poison and electricity, have energy resistance 20 to cold, fire, and acid. As well, they all have telepathy within 100ft. notably, devils ARE immune to poison and fire, AND has energy resistance 20 to cold and acid, and share the telepithy. the only other thing is they see perfectly in all darkness.
4: and
---------NAME----DR-------SR ---NAME----DR-------SR ---NAME-------DR------SR
Devils-----Pit feind 25/+2---28 ---gelugon -20/+2---25 ---cornugon---20/+2---24
Demons--Balor-----30/+3---28 ---marilith -20/+2---25 ---nalfeshnee 20/+2---24

not that different, at least in the areas you mentioned.
Arakano
03-06-04, 12:54 PM Aren´t the demons supposed to be more numberous AND more powerful in comparison to the devils, who make up for this by being better organized? Otherwise, methinks, the Blood War would have been won by the devils long ago... ;)
The Thane
03-06-04, 01:26 PM Mordeth and Nightshade: thank you for your comments. Mordeth, I would agree with you about the tactics for the demons vs. devils conflicts (demons rely on numbers, devils win 1 on 1), except that the CR's are too similar in the book. Marilith has a CR of 17, Cornugon has 16. By the stats, the Marilith would get her butt kicked, BUT SHE HAS A HIGHER CR?! She's supposed to be a "general" of the armies?? A nightmarish native of the Abyss is essentially a souped up yuan-ti? No fear aura? No regenerative ablility? That just doesn't seem right. They should BOTH have regen and fear capabilities. A mortal would run from a devil, but not a demon? That makes no sense!
Nightshade, I'm looking at the MM 3.5. I know Outsiders have darkvision. My beef is with the fact that a "Darkness" spell (even the 2nd level variety) will obscure darkvision. Devils would be immune to this, demons not. How in the heck does it make sense that a demon, a creature born of evil and darkness, can be blinded?? And, for the Babau's case, it can be blinded by its own power! And devils, also creatures of infernal darkness, can't? They BOTH should either be blinded or immune to darkness.
Additionally, here's the stats I pulled out of the 3.5 MM.
Marilith:CR 17, SR 25, DR 10/good and cold iron, AC 29, 216 hp.
Cornugon: CR 16, SR 28, DR 10/good and silver, AC 35, 172 hp, fear aura and regen 5.
Glabrezu: CR 13, SR 21, DR 10/good, AC 27, 174 hp.
Gelugon: CR 13, SR 25, DR 10/good, AC 32, 147 hp, fear aura and regen 5.
Nightshade, your stats DO make them more balanced. I think the energy resistances between the two races are balanced. An extra 30-40 hp doesn't make up for the devils increased AC/SR and regen capabilities in my opinion.
In summary, it appears that demons have been stripped of some of the things that make them essentially demons when viewed through a mortal's eyes: fearful, indestructible creatures of darkness and destruction.
Mr.Black
03-06-04, 02:15 PM I generally agree. However, demons do get the advantage of being very hard to suprise (+8 spot and listen) and most of the higher demons have true seeing at will.
The Thane
03-06-04, 02:36 PM Mr. Black, thank you. I knew the higher demons had "True Seeing", but didn't know it could see through normal and magical darkness until now, when I just looked it up. Now if we could just make the Balor scare some people with supernatural power, we might be getting somewhere!
Arakano
03-06-04, 02:53 PM Forget supernatural powers. A Balor is scary enough. Anyone who doesn´t run when he first sees one should be told that his wisdom (a.k.a. common sense) is higher than 1... ;) :D
The Thane
03-06-04, 03:25 PM No, Tanar'ri do not have a gaze attack as part of their type abilities.
Ack'noth Necrom
03-06-04, 07:05 PM Speaking from just the game mechanics the demons are more powerful. However what a lot of people dont realize is the demons dont really have the ability to plan and work together. Theyre far to chaotic for that. The devils however are lawful and work together VERY well.

IMO its because the devils can work together that proves if anyone ever wins the blood war it will be them.
The Thane
03-06-04, 10:00 PM What game mechanics are you referring to? On paper it appears demons are WEAKER than devils: lower AC, lower SR, no regen capabilities.

Plus, demons don't have as many purely offensive spell-like abilities as devils. A gelugon can cast fly, cone of cold and ice-wall (just to name a few) at will. A glabrezu (also CR 13) can cast...chaos hammer and....reverse gravity? A pit fiend can hurl fireballs at will while a balron can...can...well, doesn't have an analogous offensive ability that it can cast at will.
Nightshade22
03-07-04, 09:21 AM As Primitive KiKe said, (or at least instigated) Demons are much more combat focused than devils. Those few Extra HD Give an Equal amount of BAB.
Sildatorak
03-07-04, 03:27 PM Another answer lies in the nerfing of the gate ability of fiends.

In 2e, the allies summoned could also use their gate ability. Baatezu were set up so that (probability of getting help)*(average number summoned)<1. Basically, their reinforcements would just peter out over time. Tanar'ri on the other hand had P*n>1. Given a fight with 20 manes, you have to kill them fast or you will have to kill 50+ of them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Thane 03-06-04, 11:15 AM	Why are demons/tanar'ri weaker than devils/baatezu? It seems like a big oversight in my opinion. Devils can see in darkness as a class, demons CAN'T (even though the Babau can cast darkness at will)? Major devils regenerate and have fear auras, demons DON'T? Devils generally have higher AC and higher SR than their demonic counterparts. What gives? Demons that don't project fear (a 20' Nalfeshnee isn't scary enough?), don't regenerate, and can get blinded in their own evil darkness? WHAT IS THIS???
Mordeth 03-06-04, 12:18 PM	Devils have always been a bit more powerful than demons, using power and cunning to fight the blood war as the demonic forces relied on thier infinite numbers to keep the whole thing at more or less a stalemate. And most devils can win a 1 on 1 encounter with their demonic counter part. This is probably the reason for the differances between the two. Regardless of whether or not they make since.
Nightshade22 03-06-04, 12:18 PM	check 1: the CRs 2: more carfully, also see in the front of the MM, Under "Outsider". "Unless noted otherwise, outsiders have darkvision with a range of 60 feet. " 3: note Tanar'i'i are immune to poison and electricity, have energy resistance 20 to cold, fire, and acid. As well, they all have telepathy within 100ft. notably, devils ARE immune to poison and fire, AND has energy resistance 20 to cold and acid, and share the telepithy. the only other thing is they see perfectly in all darkness. 4: and ---------NAME----DR-------SR ---NAME----DR-------SR ---NAME-------DR------SR Devils-----Pit feind 25/+2---28 ---gelugon -20/+2---25 ---cornugon---20/+2---24 Demons--Balor-----30/+3---28 ---marilith -20/+2---25 ---nalfeshnee 20/+2---24 not that different, at least in the areas you mentioned.
Arakano 03-06-04, 12:54 PM	Aren´t the demons supposed to be more numberous AND more powerful in comparison to the devils, who make up for this by being better organized? Otherwise, methinks, the Blood War would have been won by the devils long ago... ;)
The Thane 03-06-04, 01:26 PM	Mordeth and Nightshade: thank you for your comments. Mordeth, I would agree with you about the tactics for the demons vs. devils conflicts (demons rely on numbers, devils win 1 on 1), except that the CR's are too similar in the book. Marilith has a CR of 17, Cornugon has 16. By the stats, the Marilith would get her butt kicked, BUT SHE HAS A HIGHER CR?! She's supposed to be a "general" of the armies?? A nightmarish native of the Abyss is essentially a souped up yuan-ti? No fear aura? No regenerative ablility? That just doesn't seem right. They should BOTH have regen and fear capabilities. A mortal would run from a devil, but not a demon? That makes no sense! Nightshade, I'm looking at the MM 3.5. I know Outsiders have darkvision. My beef is with the fact that a "Darkness" spell (even the 2nd level variety) will obscure darkvision. Devils would be immune to this, demons not. How in the heck does it make sense that a demon, a creature born of evil and darkness, can be blinded?? And, for the Babau's case, it can be blinded by its own power! And devils, also creatures of infernal darkness, can't? They BOTH should either be blinded or immune to darkness. Additionally, here's the stats I pulled out of the 3.5 MM. Marilith:CR 17, SR 25, DR 10/good and cold iron, AC 29, 216 hp. Cornugon: CR 16, SR 28, DR 10/good and silver, AC 35, 172 hp, fear aura and regen 5. Glabrezu: CR 13, SR 21, DR 10/good, AC 27, 174 hp. Gelugon: CR 13, SR 25, DR 10/good, AC 32, 147 hp, fear aura and regen 5. Nightshade, your stats DO make them more balanced. I think the energy resistances between the two races are balanced. An extra 30-40 hp doesn't make up for the devils increased AC/SR and regen capabilities in my opinion. In summary, it appears that demons have been stripped of some of the things that make them essentially demons when viewed through a mortal's eyes: fearful, indestructible creatures of darkness and destruction.
Mr.Black 03-06-04, 02:15 PM	I generally agree. However, demons do get the advantage of being very hard to suprise (+8 spot and listen) and most of the higher demons have true seeing at will.
The Thane 03-06-04, 02:36 PM	Mr. Black, thank you. I knew the higher demons had "True Seeing", but didn't know it could see through normal and magical darkness until now, when I just looked it up. Now if we could just make the Balor scare some people with supernatural power, we might be getting somewhere!
Arakano 03-06-04, 02:53 PM	Forget supernatural powers. A Balor is scary enough. Anyone who doesn´t run when he first sees one should be told that his wisdom (a.k.a. common sense) is higher than 1... ;) :D
The Thane 03-06-04, 03:25 PM	No, Tanar'ri do not have a gaze attack as part of their type abilities.
Ack'noth Necrom 03-06-04, 07:05 PM	Speaking from just the game mechanics the demons are more powerful. However what a lot of people dont realize is the demons dont really have the ability to plan and work together. Theyre far to chaotic for that. The devils however are lawful and work together VERY well. IMO its because the devils can work together that proves if anyone ever wins the blood war it will be them.
The Thane 03-06-04, 10:00 PM	What game mechanics are you referring to? On paper it appears demons are WEAKER than devils: lower AC, lower SR, no regen capabilities. Plus, demons don't have as many purely offensive spell-like abilities as devils. A gelugon can cast fly, cone of cold and ice-wall (just to name a few) at will. A glabrezu (also CR 13) can cast...chaos hammer and....reverse gravity? A pit fiend can hurl fireballs at will while a balron can...can...well, doesn't have an analogous offensive ability that it can cast at will.
Nightshade22 03-07-04, 09:21 AM	As Primitive KiKe said, (or at least instigated) Demons are much more combat focused than devils. Those few Extra HD Give an Equal amount of BAB.
Sildatorak 03-07-04, 03:27 PM	Another answer lies in the nerfing of the gate ability of fiends. In 2e, the allies summoned could also use their gate ability. Baatezu were set up so that (probability of getting help)(average number summoned)<1. Basically, their reinforcements would just peter out over time. Tanar'ri on the other hand had Pn>1. Given a fight with 20 manes, you have to kill them fast or you will have to kill 50+ of them.