Did they playtest this!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Did they playtest this!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Great Cthulhu
05-23-05, 03:35 PM I picked up a copy of the non-core Creature Collection II: Dark Menagerie a few weeks ago and lo and behold, I found a creature yesterday that they probably didn't playtest at all.
This monster is called the Time Killer and is given a CR of 1.
However, on closer inspection, this monster has too many powers for a CR 1 creature.
It can transport any character 1d4 rounds into the future and can age people 1d10 years with a breath attack. It also can see the future.
It also has an AC of 19.*
*I'll explain why I mention this in a second.
This is how an encounter went for a game I DMed.

DM: The Time Killer uses its ability to send the Paladin into the future.
(All other players are sorcerors or wizards.)
PCs: WE ATTACK!
(3 rounds later...)
DM: The paladin comes back to discover that his companions are now about 20 years older and nearly dead.
(The wizards and sorceror coudn't beat the AC 19. They hit it once.)

I realize that this isn't going to work out the same way for everyone, but I still think that it has too powerful abilities for a CR 1 creature.
What does everyone else think?
DungeonMaster
05-23-05, 03:47 PM What are the save DCs for the abilities?
Non-core is notoriously not well playtested if at all. Even WOTC products. Heck even 3.5.
MinionOfCthulhu
05-23-05, 03:48 PM The Creature Collection books have interesting monsters, but you're right, more often then not, stats seem out of whack. I'm no expert or anything on these matters, however, but seeing things like a CR 1 hawk that can shoot 4d6 damage lightning bolts doesn't seem right.
Eikcuf
05-26-05, 04:09 PM add a 0 to the Cr. Cr10 sound better
Count Arioch the 28th
05-26-05, 08:48 PM [snip]and can age people 1d10 years with a breath attack.

Alright. Every dragon in the world is now working their scaley asses off to get one for themselves, that's awesome! Great Wyrm status in a few days!
The_Fan
05-26-05, 09:00 PM Yeah, like most things White Wolf touches, I give it an A for concept, a C- for playability.

I've found in my 3.5 House of Strahd conversion it's easier to work from the 2e sources than to use Denizens of Dread.
djinni
05-27-05, 01:41 AM add a 0 to the Cr. Cr10 sound better
there are many many typos in the products...
how did the monster know to target the paladin, there were only 3 PC's so any encounter is going to be very hard on them.
two spellcasters, have no business fighting they should have run away when their fighter left.
a group of 4 PC's with one spellcaster would have faired much much better.
Rulebook
05-27-05, 02:54 PM i bet one melee hit from the wizard kills the bastard.
fish_heads
05-27-05, 03:28 PM How many hit points doe sit have? Hit Dice?

Usually, that's a good indicator of what the CR should really be.
Sildatorak
05-27-05, 03:47 PM I would guess that your best fighting wizard probably has an attack bonus of around +0 or +1. That means that if all 3 melee with the thing, you have flanking (+2), and probably one successful aid another (+2) per round. That gives means that it will probably take a 14 or 15 to hit it, which is high but doable. If both support wizards get lucky with their aid another rolls, you could have a +6 or +7 total, and would need a 12 or 13 to hit, which is quite doable. True strike would practically ensure a hit if any of the wizards had it prepared. Also, what happened to all of their spells? If they were already out of spells, it doesn't surprise me that a CR 1 took them for a really big ride.
speeblefreak
06-08-05, 11:29 AM I also have CC2. Definitely upgrade the time killer to CR 2. No further than that because anybody can make a DC 11 save.

As for the draconic quick-aging, it's a good idea in theory, but remember what else dragons have an excess of: pride. No true dragon would stoop to using such a lowly creature to hasten its years, or any creature for that matter.
Norhg
06-08-05, 06:30 PM As for the draconic quick-aging, it's a good idea in theory, but remember what else dragons have an excess of: pride. No true dragon would stoop to using such a lowly creature to hasten its years, or any creature for that matter.

Always is not always always. At least not in DnD. For every ten thousand dragons who say "no" one will take the shortcut and say "yes".
djinni
06-08-05, 07:28 PM I also have CC2. Definitely upgrade the time killer to CR 2. No further than that because anybody can make a DC 11 save.
that's half a chance...which is a CR1 catagory, although the other abilities might upgrade it to CR2, the thing to note is that the two spellcasters DID win, against it. by themselves...so I wouldn't upgrade it at all, I would however allow a break enchantment to disrupt the effects of the aging.
Great Cthulhu
06-10-05, 11:59 AM I think that the problem was that my party was small, weak, and the players were kinda stupid.
However, I still think it should be at least a CR 2 like people have been suggesting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Great Cthulhu 05-23-05, 03:35 PM	I picked up a copy of the non-core Creature Collection II: Dark Menagerie a few weeks ago and lo and behold, I found a creature yesterday that they probably didn't playtest at all. This monster is called the Time Killer and is given a CR of 1. However, on closer inspection, this monster has too many powers for a CR 1 creature. It can transport any character 1d4 rounds into the future and can age people 1d10 years with a breath attack. It also can see the future. It also has an AC of 19.* *I'll explain why I mention this in a second. This is how an encounter went for a game I DMed. DM: The Time Killer uses its ability to send the Paladin into the future. (All other players are sorcerors or wizards.) PCs: WE ATTACK! (3 rounds later...) DM: The paladin comes back to discover that his companions are now about 20 years older and nearly dead. (The wizards and sorceror coudn't beat the AC 19. They hit it once.) I realize that this isn't going to work out the same way for everyone, but I still think that it has too powerful abilities for a CR 1 creature. What does everyone else think?
DungeonMaster 05-23-05, 03:47 PM	What are the save DCs for the abilities? Non-core is notoriously not well playtested if at all. Even WOTC products. Heck even 3.5.
MinionOfCthulhu 05-23-05, 03:48 PM	The Creature Collection books have interesting monsters, but you're right, more often then not, stats seem out of whack. I'm no expert or anything on these matters, however, but seeing things like a CR 1 hawk that can shoot 4d6 damage lightning bolts doesn't seem right.
Eikcuf 05-26-05, 04:09 PM	add a 0 to the Cr. Cr10 sound better
Count Arioch the 28th 05-26-05, 08:48 PM	[snip]and can age people 1d10 years with a breath attack. Alright. Every dragon in the world is now working their scaley asses off to get one for themselves, that's awesome! Great Wyrm status in a few days!
The_Fan 05-26-05, 09:00 PM	Yeah, like most things White Wolf touches, I give it an A for concept, a C- for playability. I've found in my 3.5 House of Strahd conversion it's easier to work from the 2e sources than to use Denizens of Dread.
djinni 05-27-05, 01:41 AM	add a 0 to the Cr. Cr10 sound better there are many many typos in the products... how did the monster know to target the paladin, there were only 3 PC's so any encounter is going to be very hard on them. two spellcasters, have no business fighting they should have run away when their fighter left. a group of 4 PC's with one spellcaster would have faired much much better.
Rulebook 05-27-05, 02:54 PM	i bet one melee hit from the wizard kills the bastard.
fish_heads 05-27-05, 03:28 PM	How many hit points doe sit have? Hit Dice? Usually, that's a good indicator of what the CR should really be.
Sildatorak 05-27-05, 03:47 PM	I would guess that your best fighting wizard probably has an attack bonus of around +0 or +1. That means that if all 3 melee with the thing, you have flanking (+2), and probably one successful aid another (+2) per round. That gives means that it will probably take a 14 or 15 to hit it, which is high but doable. If both support wizards get lucky with their aid another rolls, you could have a +6 or +7 total, and would need a 12 or 13 to hit, which is quite doable. True strike would practically ensure a hit if any of the wizards had it prepared. Also, what happened to all of their spells? If they were already out of spells, it doesn't surprise me that a CR 1 took them for a really big ride.
speeblefreak 06-08-05, 11:29 AM	I also have CC2. Definitely upgrade the time killer to CR 2. No further than that because anybody can make a DC 11 save. As for the draconic quick-aging, it's a good idea in theory, but remember what else dragons have an excess of: pride. No true dragon would stoop to using such a lowly creature to hasten its years, or any creature for that matter.
Norhg 06-08-05, 06:30 PM	As for the draconic quick-aging, it's a good idea in theory, but remember what else dragons have an excess of: pride. No true dragon would stoop to using such a lowly creature to hasten its years, or any creature for that matter. Always is not always always. At least not in DnD. For every ten thousand dragons who say "no" one will take the shortcut and say "yes".
djinni 06-08-05, 07:28 PM	I also have CC2. Definitely upgrade the time killer to CR 2. No further than that because anybody can make a DC 11 save. that's half a chance...which is a CR1 catagory, although the other abilities might upgrade it to CR2, the thing to note is that the two spellcasters DID win, against it. by themselves...so I wouldn't upgrade it at all, I would however allow a break enchantment to disrupt the effects of the aging.
Great Cthulhu 06-10-05, 11:59 AM	I think that the problem was that my party was small, weak, and the players were kinda stupid. However, I still think it should be at least a CR 2 like people have been suggesting.