Digging out Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Digging out Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eclipse Lutgehr
06-17-05, 11:59 AM I was just thumbing through my MM the other day and came across the Skeletons entry. Looking through them, I realized something was amiss, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Thinking about every time I had seen a skeleton in a video game or movie, it hit me. Why don't they have a dig speed? I thumbed my way to the Zombie entry and thought about those that I've "seen", and nothing seemed amiss with them. Zombies usually have been corpses outside of a grave that has risen. Skeletons however, are usually a decayed body that is brought to life from a grave. Now I know this is just a personal veiwpoint, but as a DM, I don't see the problem in giving them a dig speed of oh, say 5 feet. Just enough to get out of a grave, and it's truly not gamebreaking. I was wondering if any other DM's out there had noticed this and possibly thought about it.
CzarGarrett
06-17-05, 01:07 PM I've always kinda thought of a skeleton (and zombies) as coming out of overly shallow graves, on top of the soil, and masoleums, if not specifically dug up by the caster who plans on raising them.

So no real need for a dig speed.

Although it does seem reasonable.
Fiery_Overlord
06-17-05, 01:25 PM I think a Burrow speed of 5 especially suits ghouls. I could see a low borrow speed being a nice campaign specific alteration to many undead creatures. Burrow Speed is just soil unless otherwise listed in the monster decription so it isn't that awful. Besides sinking back into the soil at sunrise is a kewl effect or rising from the earth for an ambush. All classic undead imagery.
Khalarak Ironclaw
06-17-05, 01:26 PM I always thought a simple strength check would suffice. After all, the only thing (in game terms) that keeps an ordinary human from eventually busting out of a grave is the lid of the coffin and the lack of a little thing called air. All a zombie or skeleton has to do is bash or claw at the coffin till it gives way, then push their way to the surface with a few Str checks.
R.M.G.C.L.F.
06-17-05, 01:27 PM Yup. Well, despite movies, most creatures are utterly incapable of digging out of a grave. First, you'd have to open the coffin from the inside, which has several hundred pounds of dirt on it, more than a match for the strength of any corporeal undead.
Fiery_Overlord
06-17-05, 04:34 PM Adding a low Burrow speed does more for undead than help them out of the grave. In my setting I have all undead powerless and flee from sunlight, it is a campaign quirk to explain why undead are night creatures and why an army of undead doesn't take over. The burrow abilty lets them sink down into the earth at dawn. Also at nightfall or when an area is desturbed it allows them to seemingly rise from thier grave at will. Earthwall root cellars or earthen floors in an unlit room become horribly bad ideas. This frames lesser undead in a different light, and adds an element of horror back into something that should be scary. Also with just a 5ft Burrow speed at best it could rise from just below the ground and attack ( a move then standard action) which makes undead much better at lurking in grave yards. (how do they do it in the first place if they don't have burrow???)

(BTW an unrotten wood coffin has a hardness of 5, meaning a standard human skeleton would be unable to claw its way out while a standard human zombie would eventually break out over time, in a fantasy setting it pays to cremate or spend the extra GPs for a metal/stone coffin if you don't want to have to beat down your loved ones after they're dead.)
kinem
06-17-05, 11:37 PM BTW an unrotten wood coffin has a hardness of 5, meaning a standard human skeleton would be unable to claw its way out

How long would it take for the wood to rot? :devil:
Slagger the Chuul
06-18-05, 06:32 AM How long would it take for the wood to rot? :devil:

By the time a human is properly skeletonized, the coffin should have had plenty of time to rot.

Zombies usually have been corpses outside of a grave that has risen.

What about the oft-used image of a zombie hand bursting up out of a grave? That's pretty good evidence that zombies can and do dig their way out.
Rhadamanthus
06-18-05, 09:19 AM You should make a zombie/skeleton variant, like in LM. I'm a particular fan of the fast zombie variant myself.
R.M.G.C.L.F.
06-18-05, 10:50 AM What about the oft-used image of a zombie hand bursting up out of a grave? That's pretty good evidence that zombies can and do dig their way out.
No, it's just a movie cliche. It applies to zombies in DnD no more than the virus from raccoon city.
SinisterSeraph
06-18-05, 01:26 PM I think a burrow speed is a cool idea. It isn't game-breaking by any means, and adds a twist to the creature that makes perfect sense yet is often overlooked. It gives lesser undead a little something new and can be a big surprise for unprepared PC's. Plu it makes me think of that scene in Army of Darkness where all the deadites are digging up recruits :D . Hail to the King, baby :cool: .
howlingwolf
06-19-05, 09:19 AM Even worse. Add a extra zero. 50ft would be nice to zoom around. Lots of videogames have that fun enemy, the underground swine that you have to wait to pop up and smack into oblivion. Something to make players double-take methinks. *Plotplot*

Still, might make for fun..

PC: THE DEAD ARE RAISING! MY GOD! THEY'RE GOING TO ATTACK!
Recently-Risen: Uhhh... Brainsss... But first a break. I'm knackered from all that digging. *Shamble elsewhere* BUDDY! YOU STILL OUT HERE?
Buddy: *Knocking from grave* I'm under here! HELP!! I'm afraid of the dark!

Unto infinity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eclipse Lutgehr 06-17-05, 11:59 AM	I was just thumbing through my MM the other day and came across the Skeletons entry. Looking through them, I realized something was amiss, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Thinking about every time I had seen a skeleton in a video game or movie, it hit me. Why don't they have a dig speed? I thumbed my way to the Zombie entry and thought about those that I've "seen", and nothing seemed amiss with them. Zombies usually have been corpses outside of a grave that has risen. Skeletons however, are usually a decayed body that is brought to life from a grave. Now I know this is just a personal veiwpoint, but as a DM, I don't see the problem in giving them a dig speed of oh, say 5 feet. Just enough to get out of a grave, and it's truly not gamebreaking. I was wondering if any other DM's out there had noticed this and possibly thought about it.
CzarGarrett 06-17-05, 01:07 PM	I've always kinda thought of a skeleton (and zombies) as coming out of overly shallow graves, on top of the soil, and masoleums, if not specifically dug up by the caster who plans on raising them. So no real need for a dig speed. Although it does seem reasonable.
Fiery_Overlord 06-17-05, 01:25 PM	I think a Burrow speed of 5 especially suits ghouls. I could see a low borrow speed being a nice campaign specific alteration to many undead creatures. Burrow Speed is just soil unless otherwise listed in the monster decription so it isn't that awful. Besides sinking back into the soil at sunrise is a kewl effect or rising from the earth for an ambush. All classic undead imagery.
Khalarak Ironclaw 06-17-05, 01:26 PM	I always thought a simple strength check would suffice. After all, the only thing (in game terms) that keeps an ordinary human from eventually busting out of a grave is the lid of the coffin and the lack of a little thing called air. All a zombie or skeleton has to do is bash or claw at the coffin till it gives way, then push their way to the surface with a few Str checks.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-17-05, 01:27 PM	Yup. Well, despite movies, most creatures are utterly incapable of digging out of a grave. First, you'd have to open the coffin from the inside, which has several hundred pounds of dirt on it, more than a match for the strength of any corporeal undead.
Fiery_Overlord 06-17-05, 04:34 PM	Adding a low Burrow speed does more for undead than help them out of the grave. In my setting I have all undead powerless and flee from sunlight, it is a campaign quirk to explain why undead are night creatures and why an army of undead doesn't take over. The burrow abilty lets them sink down into the earth at dawn. Also at nightfall or when an area is desturbed it allows them to seemingly rise from thier grave at will. Earthwall root cellars or earthen floors in an unlit room become horribly bad ideas. This frames lesser undead in a different light, and adds an element of horror back into something that should be scary. Also with just a 5ft Burrow speed at best it could rise from just below the ground and attack ( a move then standard action) which makes undead much better at lurking in grave yards. (how do they do it in the first place if they don't have burrow???) (BTW an unrotten wood coffin has a hardness of 5, meaning a standard human skeleton would be unable to claw its way out while a standard human zombie would eventually break out over time, in a fantasy setting it pays to cremate or spend the extra GPs for a metal/stone coffin if you don't want to have to beat down your loved ones after they're dead.)
kinem 06-17-05, 11:37 PM	BTW an unrotten wood coffin has a hardness of 5, meaning a standard human skeleton would be unable to claw its way out How long would it take for the wood to rot? :devil:
Slagger the Chuul 06-18-05, 06:32 AM	How long would it take for the wood to rot? :devil: By the time a human is properly skeletonized, the coffin should have had plenty of time to rot. Zombies usually have been corpses outside of a grave that has risen. What about the oft-used image of a zombie hand bursting up out of a grave? That's pretty good evidence that zombies can and do dig their way out.
Rhadamanthus 06-18-05, 09:19 AM	You should make a zombie/skeleton variant, like in LM. I'm a particular fan of the fast zombie variant myself.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-18-05, 10:50 AM	What about the oft-used image of a zombie hand bursting up out of a grave? That's pretty good evidence that zombies can and do dig their way out. No, it's just a movie cliche. It applies to zombies in DnD no more than the virus from raccoon city.
SinisterSeraph 06-18-05, 01:26 PM	I think a burrow speed is a cool idea. It isn't game-breaking by any means, and adds a twist to the creature that makes perfect sense yet is often overlooked. It gives lesser undead a little something new and can be a big surprise for unprepared PC's. Plu it makes me think of that scene in Army of Darkness where all the deadites are digging up recruits :D . Hail to the King, baby :cool: .
howlingwolf 06-19-05, 09:19 AM	Even worse. Add a extra zero. 50ft would be nice to zoom around. Lots of videogames have that fun enemy, the underground swine that you have to wait to pop up and smack into oblivion. Something to make players double-take methinks. Plotplot Still, might make for fun.. PC: THE DEAD ARE RAISING! MY GOD! THEY'RE GOING TO ATTACK! Recently-Risen: Uhhh... Brainsss... But first a break. I'm knackered from all that digging. Shamble elsewhere BUDDY! YOU STILL OUT HERE? Buddy: Knocking from grave I'm under here! HELP!! I'm afraid of the dark! Unto infinity.