Dire Animals whats the deal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dire Animals whats the deal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ddrieglas
01-26-06, 11:08 PM i hate to start a new thread about this but i cant seem to find what im looking for. and i appoligise if im posting it in the wrong place, so please dont attack me, im just trying to get info is all.
i was told that Dire Elk were ligitimate monsters..and listed in MMII
i would dearly like to know the size of said elk
also
i was wondering if the size of a dire animal was baised on a mathmatical ratio
i know that sounds odd but its been driveing me nuts
i would hate to go about looking for a corrilation where there is none
i know it seems like a silly thing but i really do wanna know :bigeyes:
OamuTheMonk
01-26-06, 11:16 PM Dire animals are larger, stronger, more savage versions of regular animals.

There is no Template. There is no formula. There is no rhyme or reason to which creatures get the Dire treatment. It's just made up by individual authors of individual creatures.

Sorry.

P.S. I think that the Dire Elk is large, but I don't have MMII.
The Vorpal Tribble
01-26-06, 11:22 PM Dire Elk/Caribou = Megaloceros, p. 117 of Frostburn. And its large.
Ddrieglas
01-26-06, 11:22 PM are you serious?! like they just pull things like that from their tush?
so like a dire manatee could be like larger then a dire bear, just cause they say so? lol how splended...im glad i asked instead of compleateing the corrilation spread sheet i started.
thank you ever so much *ish greatful*
and yeah i figured it to be large but i wasnt sure just how large ya know?..but if its like the actual beast then 7 foot
thank you both :)
Borris
01-26-06, 11:33 PM The Dire Elk is huge.
Kenzuki
01-26-06, 11:46 PM are you serious?! like they just pull things like that from their tush?
so like a dire manatee could be like larger then a dire bear, just cause they say so? lol how splended...im glad i asked instead of compleateing the corrilation spread sheet i started.
thank you ever so much *ish greatful*
and yeah i figured it to be large but i wasnt sure just how large ya know?..but if its like the actual beast then 7 foot
thank you both :)

Pirate Capn': Arrgh! It be the dreaded Dire Sea Cow!!! I've been searching all me life for...

First Mate: Um excuse me sir, no you haven't.

Pirate Capn': Well....harpoon it anyway!
Edymnion
01-27-06, 12:24 AM Pirate Capn': Arrgh! It be the dreaded Dire Sea Cow!!! I've been searching all me life for...

First Mate: Um excuse me sir, no you haven't.

Pirate Capn': Well....harpoon it anyway![/Futurama]
catfan
01-27-06, 12:30 AM There is a *sort* of dire template that I worked out. It isn't 100% accurate, but it comes close with the monster manual critters, generally.

First, the base animal is advanced to its max HD, if it can go up a size category by doing so. If it cannot go up a size category, its HD are doubled instead. If its size did not go up, and it is smaller than large, it goes up a size category.

If its HD are still less than 1, it is increased to 1.

Adjust CR appropriately for HD increase. Adjust statistics as appropriate for size increase, and add +1 CR for size increase.

Add 'dire' template: +1 to natural armor, +4 Str, -2 dex, +2 con (max 19), +4 cha (max double or 10, whichever is less). Add 4 dex if creature has weapon finesse as a bonus feat. If dex is lower than 15, swap natural armor for dex at a 1 for 2 rate until dex is equal to original creature. +1 to CR.

Base Rat: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rat.htm
Improvised dire template:
HD 'doubled' is 1/2 HD. Increase to 1. Increase size to small (+4 str, -2 dex). Add dire stats (+1 NA, +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, +4 cha (max is double though, so +2, +4 dex since it has weapon finesse).
Result: Small 1HD animal w/ AC 15 (1 size, 3 dex, 1 nat), 10 str, 17 dex, 12 con, 2 int, 12 wis, 4 cha
Actual Dire Rat: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direRat.htm
Exactly right.

Base Wolf: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm
Improvised dire template:
HD maxed out to 6, and size increases, and dire template applied. +12 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con (max 19), +4 Cha, +3 Nat Armor.
Dex is currently 11, vs. the 15 of the base wolf. Increase dex by 4, and drop natural armor by 2.
Result: Large 6HD animal w/ AC 14 (-1 size, 2 dex, 3 nat), 25 str, 15 dex, 19 con, int 2, wis 12, cha 10
Actual Dire wolf: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direwolf.htm
Exactly right.

Base Wolverine: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolverine.htm
Improvised dire template:
HD maxed to 5, size increases. Apply dire template. +12 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con (max 19, so +0), +4 Cha (max is 10, so +0), +3 Nat Armor.
Trade in 2 nat armor for 4 dex.
Result: Large 5HD animal w/ AC 14 (-1 size, 2 dex, 3 nat), 26 str, 15 dex, 19 con, int 2, wis 12, cha 10
Actual Dire Wolverine: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolverine.htm
AC is too low, it actually gained 2 dex, and has an extra 1 point of nat armor. Its str is 4 too high. Apparently 4 Str got 'traded' for 1 nat armor and 2 dex.

Still working on the template... but I can see why one hasn't been released. Templates in the various books tend to be easily appliable, while this one has a lot of 'if/then/else' statements.
scienceman47
01-27-06, 12:44 AM Its actually not futurama, but dexters lab. Just so you know. Cause that information is mighty useful.
Blinky969
01-27-06, 01:01 AM Make me a dire whale. Please.
Johnny_Angel
01-27-06, 05:46 AM Beware the Dire Flamingos!
Lord Lorac Silvanos
01-27-06, 03:42 PM (template mechanics)
...

You do not account for intelligence in your template. Normally nothing changes, but in the rat's case intelligence is actually reduced from 2 to 1.

See also this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=576241).

I think you have re-engineered ther dire template mechanics quite well.
JulesCARV
01-27-06, 03:53 PM A good inspiration for for a dire elk is the Irish Elk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Elk), by the way.
catfan
01-28-06, 05:20 PM It looks like my CR estimates are a little short... By my figuring, a wolf (CR 1) should go to CR 4 as dire (+1 from 4 HD, +1 for large, +1 for dire), but it's only CR 3.

Same for wolverine. CR 2, +1 from 2 extra HD (close enough to 3 for me), +1 size, +1 dire template = CR 5, but its actually CR 4.

Ape --> Dire ape is really pointless I must say. +1 str, +1 nat armor, +1 HD. Whoopdefrickindoo. The advancement section was changed, but this is ridiculous. I'm certain this is in error. 4th level druid table has Ape in it. 7th level druid table has Dire Ape. Why on earth would you go from Ape to Dire Ape? You wouldn't! You get +2 HD, +2 NA, +1 Str AND Dex for keeping the ape!

Dire ape 'should' have around 8 HD, Str 21, Dex 15, Con 16, Cha 10, and +3 Nat armor (1 gets traded for 2 dex). CR ~ 2, +1 for extra HD, +1 for Dire, and then -1 for the apparent overestimated CR... Or the base ape was too strong. I'm kind of at a loss as to which would be appropriate.

Bat --> Dire Bat is even wierder. Diminutive --> Tiny --> Small --> Medium --> Large in one go. +16 str, +7 dex, +7 con, +2 cha, +5 natural armor (and speed changed for land movement). Size advancement gives +18 Str, -8 dex, +6 con, +2 nat armor. Add in Dire for +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, +1 nat armor, for a total of +22 str, -10 dex, +8 con, and +3 natural armor. The template is way off... so I guess its really not meant for tiny creatures.

More later.
Kothardarastrix
01-28-06, 06:10 PM A good inspiration for for a dire elk is the Irish Elk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Elk), by the way.

Actually in Frostburn I believe the Dire Elk is listed also listed as a Megalocerus, Irish Elk ARE Megalocerus.
Borris
01-28-06, 09:58 PM The Dire Elk (from Monster Manual II) and Megaloceros (from Frostburn) have completely different stats. They may be based on the same idea, but the end results make them two distinct monsters. Which one to use is up to the DM, but note that the Megaloceros is certainly better for low-level parties, since it has a CR of 4, as opposed to the Dire Elk's 7. For mide-level parties, you could pick either the Dire Elk or an advanced Megaloceros.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ddrieglas 01-26-06, 11:08 PM	i hate to start a new thread about this but i cant seem to find what im looking for. and i appoligise if im posting it in the wrong place, so please dont attack me, im just trying to get info is all. i was told that Dire Elk were ligitimate monsters..and listed in MMII i would dearly like to know the size of said elk also i was wondering if the size of a dire animal was baised on a mathmatical ratio i know that sounds odd but its been driveing me nuts i would hate to go about looking for a corrilation where there is none i know it seems like a silly thing but i really do wanna know :bigeyes:
OamuTheMonk 01-26-06, 11:16 PM	Dire animals are larger, stronger, more savage versions of regular animals. There is no Template. There is no formula. There is no rhyme or reason to which creatures get the Dire treatment. It's just made up by individual authors of individual creatures. Sorry. P.S. I think that the Dire Elk is large, but I don't have MMII.
The Vorpal Tribble 01-26-06, 11:22 PM	Dire Elk/Caribou = Megaloceros, p. 117 of Frostburn. And its large.
Ddrieglas 01-26-06, 11:22 PM	are you serious?! like they just pull things like that from their tush? so like a dire manatee could be like larger then a dire bear, just cause they say so? lol how splended...im glad i asked instead of compleateing the corrilation spread sheet i started. thank you ever so much ish greatful and yeah i figured it to be large but i wasnt sure just how large ya know?..but if its like the actual beast then 7 foot thank you both :)
Borris 01-26-06, 11:33 PM	The Dire Elk is huge.
Kenzuki 01-26-06, 11:46 PM	are you serious?! like they just pull things like that from their tush? so like a dire manatee could be like larger then a dire bear, just cause they say so? lol how splended...im glad i asked instead of compleateing the corrilation spread sheet i started. thank you ever so much ish greatful and yeah i figured it to be large but i wasnt sure just how large ya know?..but if its like the actual beast then 7 foot thank you both :) Pirate Capn': Arrgh! It be the dreaded Dire Sea Cow!!! I've been searching all me life for... First Mate: Um excuse me sir, no you haven't. Pirate Capn': Well....harpoon it anyway!
Edymnion 01-27-06, 12:24 AM	Pirate Capn': Arrgh! It be the dreaded Dire Sea Cow!!! I've been searching all me life for... First Mate: Um excuse me sir, no you haven't. Pirate Capn': Well....harpoon it anyway![/Futurama]
catfan 01-27-06, 12:30 AM	There is a sort of dire template that I worked out. It isn't 100% accurate, but it comes close with the monster manual critters, generally. First, the base animal is advanced to its max HD, if it can go up a size category by doing so. If it cannot go up a size category, its HD are doubled instead. If its size did not go up, and it is smaller than large, it goes up a size category. If its HD are still less than 1, it is increased to 1. Adjust CR appropriately for HD increase. Adjust statistics as appropriate for size increase, and add +1 CR for size increase. Add 'dire' template: +1 to natural armor, +4 Str, -2 dex, +2 con (max 19), +4 cha (max double or 10, whichever is less). Add 4 dex if creature has weapon finesse as a bonus feat. If dex is lower than 15, swap natural armor for dex at a 1 for 2 rate until dex is equal to original creature. +1 to CR. Base Rat: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rat.htm Improvised dire template: HD 'doubled' is 1/2 HD. Increase to 1. Increase size to small (+4 str, -2 dex). Add dire stats (+1 NA, +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, +4 cha (max is double though, so +2, +4 dex since it has weapon finesse). Result: Small 1HD animal w/ AC 15 (1 size, 3 dex, 1 nat), 10 str, 17 dex, 12 con, 2 int, 12 wis, 4 cha Actual Dire Rat: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direRat.htm Exactly right. Base Wolf: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm Improvised dire template: HD maxed out to 6, and size increases, and dire template applied. +12 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con (max 19), +4 Cha, +3 Nat Armor. Dex is currently 11, vs. the 15 of the base wolf. Increase dex by 4, and drop natural armor by 2. Result: Large 6HD animal w/ AC 14 (-1 size, 2 dex, 3 nat), 25 str, 15 dex, 19 con, int 2, wis 12, cha 10 Actual Dire wolf: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direwolf.htm Exactly right. Base Wolverine: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolverine.htm Improvised dire template: HD maxed to 5, size increases. Apply dire template. +12 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con (max 19, so +0), +4 Cha (max is 10, so +0), +3 Nat Armor. Trade in 2 nat armor for 4 dex. Result: Large 5HD animal w/ AC 14 (-1 size, 2 dex, 3 nat), 26 str, 15 dex, 19 con, int 2, wis 12, cha 10 Actual Dire Wolverine: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolverine.htm AC is too low, it actually gained 2 dex, and has an extra 1 point of nat armor. Its str is 4 too high. Apparently 4 Str got 'traded' for 1 nat armor and 2 dex. Still working on the template... but I can see why one hasn't been released. Templates in the various books tend to be easily appliable, while this one has a lot of 'if/then/else' statements.
scienceman47 01-27-06, 12:44 AM	Its actually not futurama, but dexters lab. Just so you know. Cause that information is mighty useful.
Blinky969 01-27-06, 01:01 AM	Make me a dire whale. Please.
Johnny_Angel 01-27-06, 05:46 AM	Beware the Dire Flamingos!
Lord Lorac Silvanos 01-27-06, 03:42 PM	(template mechanics) ... You do not account for intelligence in your template. Normally nothing changes, but in the rat's case intelligence is actually reduced from 2 to 1. See also this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=576241). I think you have re-engineered ther dire template mechanics quite well.
JulesCARV 01-27-06, 03:53 PM	A good inspiration for for a dire elk is the Irish Elk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Elk), by the way.
catfan 01-28-06, 05:20 PM	It looks like my CR estimates are a little short... By my figuring, a wolf (CR 1) should go to CR 4 as dire (+1 from 4 HD, +1 for large, +1 for dire), but it's only CR 3. Same for wolverine. CR 2, +1 from 2 extra HD (close enough to 3 for me), +1 size, +1 dire template = CR 5, but its actually CR 4. Ape --> Dire ape is really pointless I must say. +1 str, +1 nat armor, +1 HD. Whoopdefrickindoo. The advancement section was changed, but this is ridiculous. I'm certain this is in error. 4th level druid table has Ape in it. 7th level druid table has Dire Ape. Why on earth would you go from Ape to Dire Ape? You wouldn't! You get +2 HD, +2 NA, +1 Str AND Dex for keeping the ape! Dire ape 'should' have around 8 HD, Str 21, Dex 15, Con 16, Cha 10, and +3 Nat armor (1 gets traded for 2 dex). CR ~ 2, +1 for extra HD, +1 for Dire, and then -1 for the apparent overestimated CR... Or the base ape was too strong. I'm kind of at a loss as to which would be appropriate. Bat --> Dire Bat is even wierder. Diminutive --> Tiny --> Small --> Medium --> Large in one go. +16 str, +7 dex, +7 con, +2 cha, +5 natural armor (and speed changed for land movement). Size advancement gives +18 Str, -8 dex, +6 con, +2 nat armor. Add in Dire for +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, +1 nat armor, for a total of +22 str, -10 dex, +8 con, and +3 natural armor. The template is way off... so I guess its really not meant for tiny creatures. More later.
Kothardarastrix 01-28-06, 06:10 PM	A good inspiration for for a dire elk is the Irish Elk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Elk), by the way. Actually in Frostburn I believe the Dire Elk is listed also listed as a Megalocerus, Irish Elk ARE Megalocerus.
Borris 01-28-06, 09:58 PM	The Dire Elk (from Monster Manual II) and Megaloceros (from Frostburn) have completely different stats. They may be based on the same idea, but the end results make them two distinct monsters. Which one to use is up to the DM, but note that the Megaloceros is certainly better for low-level parties, since it has a CR of 4, as opposed to the Dire Elk's 7. For mide-level parties, you could pick either the Dire Elk or an advanced Megaloceros.