Dire Wolf Paladin Mount [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dire Wolf Paladin Mount [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SilentLucidity
07-23-03, 03:45 PM I have a sheet that my old DM used to create the dire wolf mount for my paladin. It appears he was using the BAB of the paladin but I had someone else tell me that it's supposed to be the BAB like a cleric...also, do the steps between the mount progression..do the stack or are they separate and only increase by the difference between the 2 levels? Is the AC in addition to the base AC for a dire wolf or does it replace the +3 of the base? I haven't found in any book where is specifically states how any of these actually work.....and if it does, please direct me where to look. Thanks.
SilentLucidity
07-23-03, 07:35 PM and one other thing....the basic dire wolf in the book only gets 1 attack of +10....would it still get just the one attack all the way through pretty much or how many hit dice a creature would it be to start getting 2 attacks?
SilentLucidity
07-23-03, 07:40 PM sorry...this whole "how to determine base attack for creatures" is throwing me all off when trying to figure out what the dire wolf's real base attack should be when trying to calculate for an 8th level paladin....
Woit Adernosher
07-24-03, 04:15 AM The Dire Wolf has been ruled to be an advanced mount. You can find this in either the Defenders of the Faith book or the 3.5 DMG. Among other things, this means that all the bonuses on the sidebar are delayed by one level (i.e. 6th-8th rather than 5th-7th). As for your other questions...

I don't think that steps stack, though you have all the special abilities at your level and lower.

The sidebar says that the Natural Armor Adj is an improvement to the mount's existing natural armor bonus. Thus, it stacks.

The sidebar also states that the special mount's base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount's HD (i.e. HD x 3/4).

To the best of my knowledge, a monster's BAB never earns it extra attacks with its natural weapons. Your wolf will always have its single bite attack.

As for you, you're an 8th-level paladin with a 6th-level mount, which means you only get the abilities from the first row. The wolf gets 2 bonus HD, which makes it a total of 8. 8 x 3/4 = 6. Your wolf's BAB increased by 2.
SerpentMage
07-24-03, 04:19 AM Natural attacks never increase in frequency/number for a given species (in this case, that Dire Wolf will always have just one bite attack).
SilentLucidity
07-24-03, 04:20 AM I was 6th level at the time I called it though. Does that make a difference?
Jaern
07-24-03, 11:17 AM Nah, it improves with level- otherwise it would be pretty bad.
Woit Adernosher
07-24-03, 12:55 PM You could only call it at 6th level, and the only thing that does to your advanced mount is set its progression back a level. You're just shy of earning the second set of benefits, but you've still got the first.
SilentLucidity
07-26-03, 04:19 AM If you read it, it says it becomes a magical beast...and if you look up magiucal beats in the monster manual...in the beginning, it states it advances like a fighter....and in giving the example of the CR being no more than 3 less than paladin level, it shows that an 8th level paladin had a mount that is CR5..how do you determine CR...because technically then, my wolf would be an 8HD creature....which would be a CR8, wouldn't it? and if their BAB is like a fighter's, which is what it says in the monster manual,an 8th level fighter has multiple attacks...seems to me like this is becoming more confusing trying to determine what's what and what this dire wolf mount's abilities and stats should be....
SilentLucidity
07-26-03, 04:29 PM after consulting with a friend,, it appears dissecting how to figure out how variant mounts shoudl actually be drawn up..we found out that the base saves are like that of a monk.....the BAB is like a cleric, but one of the level of HD instead of the HD of a fighter..which being a 10th level cleric is +7/+2...the HD, since it is like a magical beast, is determined to be just like that of a fighter's, not the HD X 3/4.....
SilentLucidity
07-26-03, 04:30 PM of course, this is just what we've deduced about a dire wolf...not any other type of mount..I'm sure regular mounts like a heavy warhorse would be a LOT easier to figure out....
Woit Adernosher
08-04-03, 10:29 PM Well this all depends on the edition used. The 3.5 PHB says:

"A paladin's mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal's HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats)." --3.5 PHB, pg. 45

Nowhere in the 3.0 PHB have I seen it state this. Instead, let us look to SaF (Sword and Fist). On pg. 67, there is an example statistics block for a Paladin's mount (using a heavy warhorse). Now, magical beasts have d10 Hit Die, a BAB equal to its HD and good Fortitude and Reflex saving throws. Good throws are the same for the animal and magical beasts, so let's ignore them.

If magical beasts have d10 Hit Die, the example mount does not use magical beast HD, because it uses d8 hit die. Skills are identical to its animal counterpart, so we can assume it doesn't use magical beast SP. The same can be said for feats, because a Magical beast would have 2 feats (using MM 3.0 advancement rules) for 6 HD, and the example mount has none.

The theoretical BAB for a 6 HD magical beast with a Str adjustment of +4 and a size adjustment of -1 would be +9. The example mount, however, has a to-hit bonus of +6. Thus, the mount does not advance in BAB as a magical beast.

For these reasons, I can only assume that 3.0 rules for mounts are identical to the ones presented in 3.5 (besides the summoning thing).

As for CRs...

3.0 CR advancment is covered in the DMG. On page 102, under the Tougher Monsters section, it says that a 50% increase in HD is worth a +1 CR adjustment and a 100% increase a +2 CR adjustment.

Your Dire Wolf has 6 Hit die. As a mount obtained at 6th-level with a paladin level of 8, it has 8 HD. The DMG says that the minimum adjusted CR for a monster is CR+1, so you could say that its CR is 4. Definately at least 3 lower.

If you decide to rule on paladin mounts as I have deduced, then everything I've said before hasn't changed. If you want to take the 3.0 PHB in verbatim, though, make sure to adjust HD, BAB, Skill points (you should have 12 now), and pick 2 feats suitable for your magical beast. Oh, and knock your wolf's will save down to a bad save, because Magical Beasts don't have good will saves.

I don't know where you're coming from with regards to the cleric/fighter HD thing in your second to last post. Regardless, it shouldn't matter; it either uses total cleric for animal rules or total fighter for magical beast rules.

I hope I've been of service.
SilentLucidity
08-04-03, 11:29 PM on pg. 13 of the Monster Manual, it states that a magical beast's attack bonus advances as a fighter.....to technically, from what that would tell me, my to hit would be a heck of a lot higher than what I'm using for a cleric of 10th level...and the thing I don't think people are getting is that I said I was a paladin of 8th level, but I thought I had also stated that I had gotten him at 6th level, not 8th level...which means he should be a 10HD creature...not 8..and if I didn't state that, my apologies to people who posted thining that as this probably changes your answers in a big way.
Woit Adernosher
08-05-03, 01:33 AM You are an 8th-level paladin. Correct?

You have a mount which was obtained at 6th level, because the minimum attainable level for a dire wolf was recommended to be 6th. This is found on pg. 13 of Defenders of the Faith.

If you are looking at pg. 13 of Defenders of the Faith, turn it another page to pg. 14. Look at the top. There should be a table, Table 1-3: Paladin Special Mount Abilities to be specific.

Your mount is available at 6th level at a minimum. So, let's look at the second column of the table, which is headed by "6th."

You are 8th level. The first row of abilities for a 6th level mount applies to a paladin of levels 6-8. Thus, you get the following: +2 HD, +4 Natural Armor bonus, +1 Str Adj., an Int of 6, and Improved Evasion, share spells, empathic link, and share saving throws.

My answer does not change. I assume you were using regular mount level gains, which would get you another 2 HD; but, because of what I stated, this just is not so. You have an 8 HD dire wolf, not a 10 HD. Perhaps I was not as explicit as I should have been. Everything I said about CRs and animal BAB vs. magical beast advancement still stands.

In fact, I'll go one further. Because you are using Variant Mounts, used in Defenders of the Faith (a supplement), I see no reason to disqualify the Sword and Fist mount on pg. 67 as a viable mount build, i.e. the mount is a magical beast for spells and effects but is treated as an animal for HD and everything else. The description specifically states that the mount is a magical beast, though it has d8 hit die (and all other signs point to animal).

It's your house, though, and your houserules.
gruuletheaxe
09-24-04, 05:08 PM Dunno if this helps but Wizards has an "article" on Dire Wolves on their D&D site:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20031003a

It contains stats for a Celestial Dire Wolf among other things (with a note about 7th level Paladins taking it as their Special Mount).

My 6th level Paladin has a Dire Wolf Special Mount too. After a lot of research and collaboration with my DM, these are the stats we came up with including advancement. Hope this helps (let me know if anyone sees any mistakes).

Dire Wolf (Special Mount 6th level)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+32 (68 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, empathic link, share spells, share saving throws
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +7
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +0, Listen +7, Move Silently +4, Spot +7, Survival +4* (+8 when tracking by scent);
Feats: Alertness, Run, Track, Weapon Focus (bite), Improved Evasion
Challenge Rating: 3
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-18 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: ?

This immense grey wolf seems as big as a horse. It has fiery eyes and a thick coat of fur. Dire wolves are efficient pack hunters that will kill anything they can catch. Dire wolves are mottled gray or black, about 9 feet long, 6 feet at the shoulder, and weighing some 800 pounds.

Combat
Dire wolves prefer to attack in packs, surrounding and flanking a foe when they can.
Trip (Ex): A dire wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+12 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the dire wolf.
Skills: A dire wolf has a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks. *It also has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.
Carrying Capacity: A light load for a dire wolf is up to 920 pounds; a medium load, 921–1,839 pounds; and a heavy load, 1,840–2,760 pounds. A dire wolf can drag 13,800 pounds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SilentLucidity 07-23-03, 03:45 PM	I have a sheet that my old DM used to create the dire wolf mount for my paladin. It appears he was using the BAB of the paladin but I had someone else tell me that it's supposed to be the BAB like a cleric...also, do the steps between the mount progression..do the stack or are they separate and only increase by the difference between the 2 levels? Is the AC in addition to the base AC for a dire wolf or does it replace the +3 of the base? I haven't found in any book where is specifically states how any of these actually work.....and if it does, please direct me where to look. Thanks.
SilentLucidity 07-23-03, 07:35 PM	and one other thing....the basic dire wolf in the book only gets 1 attack of +10....would it still get just the one attack all the way through pretty much or how many hit dice a creature would it be to start getting 2 attacks?
SilentLucidity 07-23-03, 07:40 PM	sorry...this whole "how to determine base attack for creatures" is throwing me all off when trying to figure out what the dire wolf's real base attack should be when trying to calculate for an 8th level paladin....
Woit Adernosher 07-24-03, 04:15 AM	The Dire Wolf has been ruled to be an advanced mount. You can find this in either the Defenders of the Faith book or the 3.5 DMG. Among other things, this means that all the bonuses on the sidebar are delayed by one level (i.e. 6th-8th rather than 5th-7th). As for your other questions... I don't think that steps stack, though you have all the special abilities at your level and lower. The sidebar says that the Natural Armor Adj is an improvement to the mount's existing natural armor bonus. Thus, it stacks. The sidebar also states that the special mount's base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount's HD (i.e. HD x 3/4). To the best of my knowledge, a monster's BAB never earns it extra attacks with its natural weapons. Your wolf will always have its single bite attack. As for you, you're an 8th-level paladin with a 6th-level mount, which means you only get the abilities from the first row. The wolf gets 2 bonus HD, which makes it a total of 8. 8 x 3/4 = 6. Your wolf's BAB increased by 2.
SerpentMage 07-24-03, 04:19 AM	Natural attacks never increase in frequency/number for a given species (in this case, that Dire Wolf will always have just one bite attack).
SilentLucidity 07-24-03, 04:20 AM	I was 6th level at the time I called it though. Does that make a difference?
Jaern 07-24-03, 11:17 AM	Nah, it improves with level- otherwise it would be pretty bad.
Woit Adernosher 07-24-03, 12:55 PM	You could only call it at 6th level, and the only thing that does to your advanced mount is set its progression back a level. You're just shy of earning the second set of benefits, but you've still got the first.
SilentLucidity 07-26-03, 04:19 AM	If you read it, it says it becomes a magical beast...and if you look up magiucal beats in the monster manual...in the beginning, it states it advances like a fighter....and in giving the example of the CR being no more than 3 less than paladin level, it shows that an 8th level paladin had a mount that is CR5..how do you determine CR...because technically then, my wolf would be an 8HD creature....which would be a CR8, wouldn't it? and if their BAB is like a fighter's, which is what it says in the monster manual,an 8th level fighter has multiple attacks...seems to me like this is becoming more confusing trying to determine what's what and what this dire wolf mount's abilities and stats should be....
SilentLucidity 07-26-03, 04:29 PM	after consulting with a friend,, it appears dissecting how to figure out how variant mounts shoudl actually be drawn up..we found out that the base saves are like that of a monk.....the BAB is like a cleric, but one of the level of HD instead of the HD of a fighter..which being a 10th level cleric is +7/+2...the HD, since it is like a magical beast, is determined to be just like that of a fighter's, not the HD X 3/4.....
SilentLucidity 07-26-03, 04:30 PM	of course, this is just what we've deduced about a dire wolf...not any other type of mount..I'm sure regular mounts like a heavy warhorse would be a LOT easier to figure out....
Woit Adernosher 08-04-03, 10:29 PM	Well this all depends on the edition used. The 3.5 PHB says: "A paladin's mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal's HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats)." --3.5 PHB, pg. 45 Nowhere in the 3.0 PHB have I seen it state this. Instead, let us look to SaF (Sword and Fist). On pg. 67, there is an example statistics block for a Paladin's mount (using a heavy warhorse). Now, magical beasts have d10 Hit Die, a BAB equal to its HD and good Fortitude and Reflex saving throws. Good throws are the same for the animal and magical beasts, so let's ignore them. If magical beasts have d10 Hit Die, the example mount does not use magical beast HD, because it uses d8 hit die. Skills are identical to its animal counterpart, so we can assume it doesn't use magical beast SP. The same can be said for feats, because a Magical beast would have 2 feats (using MM 3.0 advancement rules) for 6 HD, and the example mount has none. The theoretical BAB for a 6 HD magical beast with a Str adjustment of +4 and a size adjustment of -1 would be +9. The example mount, however, has a to-hit bonus of +6. Thus, the mount does not advance in BAB as a magical beast. For these reasons, I can only assume that 3.0 rules for mounts are identical to the ones presented in 3.5 (besides the summoning thing). As for CRs... 3.0 CR advancment is covered in the DMG. On page 102, under the Tougher Monsters section, it says that a 50% increase in HD is worth a +1 CR adjustment and a 100% increase a +2 CR adjustment. Your Dire Wolf has 6 Hit die. As a mount obtained at 6th-level with a paladin level of 8, it has 8 HD. The DMG says that the minimum adjusted CR for a monster is CR+1, so you could say that its CR is 4. Definately at least 3 lower. If you decide to rule on paladin mounts as I have deduced, then everything I've said before hasn't changed. If you want to take the 3.0 PHB in verbatim, though, make sure to adjust HD, BAB, Skill points (you should have 12 now), and pick 2 feats suitable for your magical beast. Oh, and knock your wolf's will save down to a bad save, because Magical Beasts don't have good will saves. I don't know where you're coming from with regards to the cleric/fighter HD thing in your second to last post. Regardless, it shouldn't matter; it either uses total cleric for animal rules or total fighter for magical beast rules. I hope I've been of service.
SilentLucidity 08-04-03, 11:29 PM	on pg. 13 of the Monster Manual, it states that a magical beast's attack bonus advances as a fighter.....to technically, from what that would tell me, my to hit would be a heck of a lot higher than what I'm using for a cleric of 10th level...and the thing I don't think people are getting is that I said I was a paladin of 8th level, but I thought I had also stated that I had gotten him at 6th level, not 8th level...which means he should be a 10HD creature...not 8..and if I didn't state that, my apologies to people who posted thining that as this probably changes your answers in a big way.
Woit Adernosher 08-05-03, 01:33 AM	You are an 8th-level paladin. Correct? You have a mount which was obtained at 6th level, because the minimum attainable level for a dire wolf was recommended to be 6th. This is found on pg. 13 of Defenders of the Faith. If you are looking at pg. 13 of Defenders of the Faith, turn it another page to pg. 14. Look at the top. There should be a table, Table 1-3: Paladin Special Mount Abilities to be specific. Your mount is available at 6th level at a minimum. So, let's look at the second column of the table, which is headed by "6th." You are 8th level. The first row of abilities for a 6th level mount applies to a paladin of levels 6-8. Thus, you get the following: +2 HD, +4 Natural Armor bonus, +1 Str Adj., an Int of 6, and Improved Evasion, share spells, empathic link, and share saving throws. My answer does not change. I assume you were using regular mount level gains, which would get you another 2 HD; but, because of what I stated, this just is not so. You have an 8 HD dire wolf, not a 10 HD. Perhaps I was not as explicit as I should have been. Everything I said about CRs and animal BAB vs. magical beast advancement still stands. In fact, I'll go one further. Because you are using Variant Mounts, used in Defenders of the Faith (a supplement), I see no reason to disqualify the Sword and Fist mount on pg. 67 as a viable mount build, i.e. the mount is a magical beast for spells and effects but is treated as an animal for HD and everything else. The description specifically states that the mount is a magical beast, though it has d8 hit die (and all other signs point to animal). It's your house, though, and your houserules.
gruuletheaxe 09-24-04, 05:08 PM	Dunno if this helps but Wizards has an "article" on Dire Wolves on their D&D site: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20031003a It contains stats for a Celestial Dire Wolf among other things (with a note about 7th level Paladins taking it as their Special Mount). My 6th level Paladin has a Dire Wolf Special Mount too. After a lot of research and collaboration with my DM, these are the stats we came up with including advancement. Hope this helps (let me know if anyone sees any mistakes). Dire Wolf (Special Mount 6th level) Large Animal Hit Dice: 8d8+32 (68 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18 Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+12) Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+12) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Trip Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, empathic link, share spells, share saving throws Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +7 Abilities: Str 26, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10 Skills: Hide +0, Listen +7, Move Silently +4, Spot +7, Survival +4* (+8 when tracking by scent); Feats: Alertness, Run, Track, Weapon Focus (bite), Improved Evasion Challenge Rating: 3 Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 7-18 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: ? This immense grey wolf seems as big as a horse. It has fiery eyes and a thick coat of fur. Dire wolves are efficient pack hunters that will kill anything they can catch. Dire wolves are mottled gray or black, about 9 feet long, 6 feet at the shoulder, and weighing some 800 pounds. Combat Dire wolves prefer to attack in packs, surrounding and flanking a foe when they can. Trip (Ex): A dire wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+12 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the dire wolf. Skills: A dire wolf has a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks. *It also has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent. Carrying Capacity: A light load for a dire wolf is up to 920 pounds; a medium load, 921–1,839 pounds; and a heavy load, 1,840–2,760 pounds. A dire wolf can drag 13,800 pounds.