Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 08-19-05, 06:15 PM	How do you advance a monster properly? The guidelines presented in the v3.5 MM have so many holes in them as to make correctly advancing certain monsters almost impossible. I have spoken of this in another thread. I am repeating much of it again here so it will get the attention it deserves instead of being an off-topic discussion on the side. What happens to a spellcasting monster's CL when you advance its HD? For many, there racial HD equals their CL. The aranea, couatl, drider, and more are all examples of this. They are easy as we can simply postulate that as their HD increases, so does their CL. However, several don't follow this pattern; amongst them are the dragons, several powerful outsiders, and others. As we increase their racial HD, what becomes of the CL for their spells? Sure we can give them class levels to up their spellcasting abilities, but what about those monsters who typically advance by racial HD (such as the couatl)? As they grow in power doesn' their spell power grow too? Spell-like abilities are almost as bad when it comes to advancing monsters. The rules clearly state, that unless otherwise specified, a creature's CL for its spell-like abilities is equal to its racial HD (MM pg. 315). Thus, a 15 HD Horned Devil has a CL of 15 and a Horned Devil of 45 HD has a CL of 45 for its spell-like abilities. The rules, however, don't state how you go about advancing the CL of spell-like abilities to those monsters whose HD don't initially match their spell-like abilities' CL. Take the Pixie for example. It has 1 racial HD (assuming it doesn't take class levels), but it casts spell-like abilities at CL 8. If I were to give it a total of 2 racial HD, doe its CL change to 9 (a one-for-one increase), to 16 (a doubling; a proportionate increase), or does it remain at 8 (no increase at all)? It is another gray area in the advancement rules. Spell Resistance has the same problem. In a sidebar in the monster creation guidelines, it states that a monster's SR typically (not always) equals 11+CR (MM pg. 300). This leads me to believe that when I advance a monster with SR, I should increase its SR accordingly. If a CR 5 creature has SR 16, than it should have SR 20 when I advance said creature to CR 9. However the rules neither truly support this view nor do they say what to do during advancement when the creature's SR initially didn't follow the calculation. Let's use the pseudodragon as our next example: It has SR 19, yet has a CR of 1. It is clearly an exception to the listed guidelines. If I double its HD to 4 thereby increasing its CR to 2, will its SR go up by 1 per increase to its CR (making it SR 20)? Will it increase proportionately to 38 (which is absurd)? Or does it remain the same regardless of how I advance the creature (quickly making its SR useless)? What happens if I give the pseudodragon a template which increases its CR, does its SR go up with the increase CR, or is SR only a finction of HD? Yet another gray area. Monster advancement rules are terribly vague at best, thus I came here for help with them.
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 06:52 PM	How do you advance a monster properly? The guidelines presented in the v3.5 MM have so many holes in them as to make correctly advancing certain monsters almost impossible. The rules are quite clear, and do not have any "holes." However, I do agree that they have several noticeable shortcomings. What happens to a spellcasting monster's CL when you advance its HD? Nothing. Spell-like abilities are almost as bad when it comes to advancing monsters. The rules clearly state, that unless otherwise specified, a creature's CL for its spell-like abilities is equal to its racial HD (MM pg. 315). Thus, a 15 HD Horned Devil has a CL of 15 and a Horned Devil of 45 HD has a CL of 45 for its spell-like abilities. Actually, the caster level of a horned devil's spell-like abilities is specified. It says caster level 15th in the spell-like abilities block. Thus, a 45-HD horned devil has caster level 15th for its spell-like abilities, just like a 15-HD one. Spell Resistance has the same problem. Once again, there is no problem. The rules don't say anything about adjusting an advanced monster's SR, so you don't do it. (Except for the monsters with a racial traits section, where they generally tell you to add +1 SR per class level.) Now, all of that not withstanding, there's nothing stopping you from tweaking a monster when you advance it. In fact, many of the example advanced monsters in the Monster Manual have been advanced in nonstandard ways. When you do so, you are effectively creating a new monster, and you must adjust its CR accordingly.
Raven Dark 08-19-05, 07:07 PM	The rules are quite clear...you are effectively creating a new monster, and you must adjust its CR accordingly. Well, that is one opinion. Any others?
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 07:55 PM	What on earth are you looking for? Do you want someone to tell you that you are justified in powering up your monsters without increasing their CR? As a general rule, you are not.
Raven Dark 08-19-05, 08:48 PM	What on earth are you looking for? Do you want someone to tell you that you are justified in powering up your monsters without increasing their CR? As a general rule, you are not. I never once said I wasn't going to increase the creature's CR as appropriate. The purpose of this thread is to learn the rules and to be informative. You so far have done nothing but attack me in every thread I have written today. Stop trolling and leave me alone.
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 09:27 PM	Bah. I don't believe you. I explained the rules on advancement ages ago. If that's what you were really after, it would have been the end of it.
dok 08-19-05, 10:22 PM	What happens to a spellcasting monster's CL when you advance its HD? Nothing. (SRD reference) (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/monsters/INCREASING_HIT_DICE.html) They are easy as we can simply postulate that as their HD increases, so does their CL. You can postulate that, but you'd be wrong. SRD: "As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type." That's it. That's all. A creature advanced by type gains hit dice, improved BAB, saving throws, more skill points, feats, and an ability score increase for every 4 HD. As they grow in power doesn' their spell power grow too? No. Monsters with more HD don't usually reperesent "growing in power", merely larger, stronger versions of the creature's type. A creature advanced by Type gets physically bigger and stronger; there's no strong reason to invent a correlation to magical power as well. Thus, a 15 HD Horned Devil has a CL of 15 and a Horned Devil of 45 HD has a CL of 45 for its spell-like abilities. As already pointed out, that isn't correct. the SLAs of a Horned devil are explicitly stated as having a caster level of 15. But let's pretend that it doesn't work that way, and let's at your example of a 45 HD Horned Devil. Adding 30 HD adds +15 CR, +1 for the size increase, which means we have a CR 32 monster with SLAs that have a caster level of 45. What, exactly, does that affect? Well, it doesn't increase the DC of those spells. It actually doesn't increase the damage they deal either, since his base caster level (15) already hits the dice cap for damage. So even if it did work the way you though it did, so what? This leads me to believe that when I advance a monster with SR, I should increase its SR accordingly. You can believe that, but the rules do not support such a belief. What happens if I give the pseudodragon a template which increases its CR, does its SR go up with the increase CR, or is SR only a finction of HD? Yet another gray area. No. What's happened here isn't a problem in the rules. What's happened is that you have confused two related, but seperate rule systems. There are rules for designing monsters, and there are rules for advancing monsters by Hit Die. When designing monsters, SR is a function of CR. When improving monsters, either by advancing by Hit Die or adding a template, SR is a fixed value. Now, if you wanted house rules or guidelines, I would suggest the following: *When a creature is advanced by Hit Die, increase the caster level of its spell-like abilities and increase it's SR both by +1 for every +1 of CR increase. This would preserve the relationships of caster level & SR to Challenge Rating. It's the house rule I use, and recommend to others...
Raven Dark 08-19-05, 10:52 PM	But they have to go up. If I increased the HD and its CL and SR didn't go up too, the creature would actually grow weaker with more HD. Its CR would continue to grow at a steady rate, but its SR would become useless. It falls apart if you do it your way. The high CL may not help the horned devil's damage, but it does help range, duration, and other factors too. Even if you guys are right, it is definitely something that needs to be changed and elaborated upon.
Slagger the Chuul 08-20-05, 08:55 AM	It is the way it works normally, even if it has those shortcomings. Depending on the creature, extra HD can be quite cheap to add (in terms of CR), but it tends to work better for creatures that are physical brutes than those that use spells or similar special abilities.
UZI 08-20-05, 12:23 PM	The guidelines for SR is usually backfilled into the creature after the target CR is decided. If you want SR for a CR 12 creature, you give it SR 22. SR = 10 + CR (meaning a character of equal caster level has a 50% chance of overcoming the SR). So if the SR of the creature falls into these guidelines, an increase of SR with CR would be waranted. If the creature has an SR much higher than its CR would normally allow, then you may need to find a more balanced approach to increases.
Purkake 08-20-05, 03:25 PM	Creatures dont get +1 to ability score per 4 levels, only characters do ;)
Raven Dark 08-20-05, 06:00 PM	Creatures dont get +1 to ability score per 4 levels, only characters do ;) On account of your smily I can't tell if you are bing serious, but just the same, I know that is not true.
Purkake 08-20-05, 08:21 PM	It's the "just so that you know" kind of serious smily.
was_fired 08-20-05, 10:18 PM	No, he is right monsters do not gain bonuses to their ability scores every 4HD you advance them. Take a look on page 292 of your monster manual for the example advanced otyugh. All of its ability score increases are due to size, and nothing else.
Slagger the Chuul 08-20-05, 10:54 PM	I'd put this down to the fact that they aren't just growing bigger, they're a naturally larger specimen. Personally, though, I often add it anyway.
BlueLikeYou 08-20-05, 10:55 PM	No, he is right monsters do not gain bonuses to their ability scores every 4HD you advance them. Take a look on page 292 of your monster manual for the example advanced otyugh. All of its ability score increases are due to size, and nothing else. p. 290 says "Ability Score Improvement: Whenever a monster reaches a number of Hit Dice divisible by 4, it improves one ability scroe 1 point. For example, a lammasu of 7 Hit Dice increased to 14 Hit Dice gains an ability scroe at 8 HD and another one at 12 HD."
Part-Human2 08-20-05, 11:12 PM	Supernatural Abilities function at 1/2 racial HD + ability score modifier. For Spell-like abilities, if Caster Level is not stated, it is based on racial HD (as per Spell-like ablilities in the Glossary under Special Abilities (pg 315).
Raven Dark 08-21-05, 12:23 AM	...For Spell-like abilities, if Caster Level is not stated, it is based on racial HD (as per Spell-like ablilities in the Glossary under Special Abilities (pg 315). This is what leads me to believe that if I increase the creature's HD, their CL would go up too. Why is it SO farfetched that the creature's CL is what it is BECAUSE his HD is the same? In all likelyhood, it was the designer's intent to match the CL with the HD on some of those monsters. I'm merely following what the book implies. Many of you believe that the rules aren't there because they don't need to be. That is simply, as you say, the way it is supposed to work. I on the other hand, believe that, that is not only the way it is supposed to work, but that they are glaring holes in the monster advancement rules that need to be filled in with errata or a FAQ entry. The balance of monster advancement will always fall apart if you advance a creature high enough, but by your "standard" methods, the balance falls apart much sooner then it otherwise would with my method (see my statements on useless spell resistance above).
was_fired 08-21-05, 12:49 AM	Two things: 1. Your ability score improvement quote wasn't complete it also includes the following, "Monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they 'already reached' with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basis ability scores."(290 MM). As per the evidence on page 292 we can conclude that ability adjustments are never granted from racial HD since the monsters have always been considered to possess these adjustments. Now if they gained class levels then yes they would gain these ability increases, but monster HD do not grant ability increases to non-PCs as it stands. 2. CL is normally related to CR, as is SR. Since HD advance at twice the rate of CR at the very least allow extra HD to add to SR and CL quickly breaks down the system, just as it breaks down Su abilities (10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod). Case in point the hezrou which is normally a CR 11 (CL 13). If you allow additional HD to directly increase CL a CR 20 version would have 16 extra HD (+1 CR due to size increase to huge), and its caster level would be 29. The hezrou has blasphemy on its spell list, this means that this monster could kill any non-evil 20th level party with ease. The rule of thumb for advancing monsters is that they should get weaker, not stronger. Your better off making new versions of monsters at higher and lower levels.
Slagger the Chuul 08-21-05, 04:56 AM	As per the evidence on page 292 we can conclude that ability adjustments are never granted from racial HD since the monsters have always been considered to possess these adjustments. Now if they gained class levels then yes they would gain these ability increases, but monster HD do not grant ability increases to non-PCs as it stands. Now that I have my books with me, I can determine how this works out. What the seciton of page 290 means is that the base statistics for the monster (those written in the statistics block) already include the increased ability scores. If you add more racial HD, then you do include increases every 4 levels (just as if you'd added class levels). For example, if you were somehow building a rust monster from 1 HD, you might start with an array of scores like 10, 16, 13, 2, 13, 8 (hypothetically). When you reached 4 HD, you would add 1 ability point to Dexterity, bringing it to the full normal stat array of 10, 17, 13, 2, 13, 8. At its normal total of 5 HD, the rust monster already has this figured in, so you don't need to add it yourself if you're giving the monster an unusual array of scores. If you were to advance the rust monster to 10 racial HD, it would gain an ability point on 1 of its scores for reaching 8 HD, plus the increases it would have for being Large (at 9+ HD for a rust monster). They seem to have overlooked this in the otyugh example, but no-one's perfect. :)
Weenie 08-21-05, 09:59 AM	CL is normally related to CR, as is SR. Since HD advance at twice the rate of CR at the very least allow extra HD to add to SR and CL quickly breaks down the system, just as it breaks down Su abilities (10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod). Yes, advancing CL and SR directly with HD (1:1 ratio) is not a good idea. However, not advancing it at all is also wrong. Dok's house rule (+1 CL and +1 SR for every +1 CR) sounds OK to me. IMG, I usually wing it; up the HD, estimate the new CR, then work in an improved CL/SR if needed. However, I don't know how you figure this: The rule of thumb for advancing monsters is that they should get weaker, not stronger. You mean relatively weaker, compared to the new CR, I assume? Even if that's the case, I don't know if I agree. BTW, regarding your Point 1, I'm with Slagger the Chuul. Creatures with increased HD get an ability score increase at every 4th HD. The lack of ability adjustments in the otyugh example means nothing - the text overrules the table, as usual.
Raven Dark 08-21-05, 10:16 AM	Yes, advancing CL and SR directly with HD (1:1 ratio) is not a good idea. However, not advancing it at all is also wrong. Dok's house rule (+1 CL and +1 SR for every +1 CR) sounds OK to me. IMG, I usually wing it; up the HD, estimate the new CR, then work in an improved CL/SR if needed. Using Dok's houserule may or may not be problematic for players who are playing advanced monsters as they base thier characters off of the ECL system, not the CR system. Would basing abilities off the CR be at all balanced for a PC character, I wonder? Or would it grow unbalanced in some way?
Weenie 08-21-05, 03:54 PM	Would basing abilities off the CR be at all balanced for a PC character, I wonder? Or would it grow unbalanced in some way? Hmm... well, if they advance through a character class, I don't really see a problem, regardless of how many racial HD they start with. Since classes supposedly have an in-build incremental power advancement (yeah, right), it would come down to +1 CL and SR per added class HD, which would by the book. See entries on genasi spell-like ability CLs, or drow spell resistance. And later on, the LA becomes a pain in the ass, since most racial abilities don't look so hot any more. (Well, SR is always good, but who cares about the CL for your 1/day control flames, honestly...)
Algorithm_X 08-22-05, 12:07 AM	Dok, That was thorough, methodical and patient explanation (especially to someone who refuses to listen but asks anyway) using good referencing skills, Here is a :cookie: Feel free to keep it, as a trophy. What happens to a spellcasting monster's CL when you advance its HD? Nothing. (SRD reference) (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/monsters/INCREASING_HIT_DICE.html) They are easy as we can simply postulate that as their HD increases, so does their CL. You can postulate that, but you'd be wrong. SRD: "As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type." That's it. That's all. A creature advanced by type gains hit dice, improved BAB, saving throws, more skill points, feats, and an ability score increase for every 4 HD. As they grow in power doesn' their spell power grow too? No. Monsters with more HD don't usually reperesent "growing in power", merely larger, stronger versions of the creature's type. A creature advanced by Type gets physically bigger and stronger; there's no strong reason to invent a correlation to magical power as well. Thus, a 15 HD Horned Devil has a CL of 15 and a Horned Devil of 45 HD has a CL of 45 for its spell-like abilities. As already pointed out, that isn't correct. the SLAs of a Horned devil are explicitly stated as having a caster level of 15. But let's pretend that it doesn't work that way, and let's at your example of a 45 HD Horned Devil. Adding 30 HD adds +15 CR, +1 for the size increase, which means we have a CR 32 monster with SLAs that have a caster level of 45. What, exactly, does that affect? Well, it doesn't increase the DC of those spells. It actually doesn't increase the damage they deal either, since his base caster level (15) already hits the dice cap for damage. So even if it did work the way you though it did, so what? This leads me to believe that when I advance a monster with SR, I should increase its SR accordingly. You can believe that, but the rules do not support such a belief. What happens if I give the pseudodragon a template which increases its CR, does its SR go up with the increase CR, or is SR only a finction of HD? Yet another gray area. No. What's happened here isn't a problem in the rules. What's happened is that you have confused two related, but seperate rule systems. There are rules for designing monsters, and there are rules for advancing monsters by Hit Die. When designing monsters, SR is a function of CR. When improving monsters, either by advancing by Hit Die or adding a template, SR is a fixed value. Now, if you wanted house rules or guidelines, I would suggest the following: *When a creature is advanced by Hit Die, increase the caster level of its spell-like abilities and increase it's SR both by +1 for every +1 of CR increase. This would preserve the relationships of caster level & SR to Challenge Rating. It's the house rule I use, and recommend to others...