Post/Author/DateTime	Post
northern_bear 03-30-07, 12:33 PM	OK, if your low or medium level party happens to be walking through the dungeon one day and all of a sudden a trap door opens up beneath you, dumping you all into an inescapable pit, with the Tarrasque, then you're in big trouble. But failing this, I don't see how the tarrasque is a credible threat. If you're outside, and somebody says, "hey look, isn't that the Tarrasque over there, 200 feet away?" then the party should have zero trouble getting away. Slow movement rate, inability to fly, no ranged attacks, and most of all, incredible stupidity means the Tarrasque should never ever be able to kill off any adventuring party above 5th or 6th level. And if your the party comes into the tavern and sees the the sign that says: "wanted, team of adventurers to go fight the Tarrasque who has been terorizing the town of Ajax" then even a mid level party should be able to prepare themselves for a winning batle against the Tarrasque. In my oppinion, the Tarrasque should have a challenge rating of around 10 or 11. I'd like to hear other people's theories about how easy to defeat the tarrasque is. Rebutals are also welcome. I'll start.
northern_bear 03-30-07, 12:34 PM	The tarrasque has melee attacks only, so all you have to do to avoid getting killed by it is to avoid getting into melee combat. The ability to fly, or a sufficiently high movement rate on the ground should take care of that. The frightful presence could be a problem, but all you have to do to avoid that, is stay more than 60 feet away, or have imunity to fear via any one of dozens of methods. That takes care of defending against the Tarrasque, now what about offence? Dealing hit point damage is a waste of time, so just finish the Tarrasque of with some sort of technique that doesn't deal hit point damage. Good options include: Turn it into stone. Turn it into a mouse. Teleport it to the moon, another planet, or the surface of the sun. Lock it behind permanent walls of force. Ability drain it (it is imune to ability damage, but not ability drain) Many more options. Yes, spell resistance is a problem, but there are various spells and special abilities that can allow even a mid level wizard to overcome SR 32. And yes, the Tarassque has good saves. But a one always fails. Since the Tarrasque posses no offensive threat, you can have all the time in the world to blast away with spells until the Tarrasque eventually fails a save. And because it is always hungry, and stupid as a post, it probably won't bother running away until it is too late. How else can a low level party defeat a Tarrasque?
Warforged Goblin 03-30-07, 02:21 PM	*Double take* Huh? Re: Discussion of why the Tarrasque is a wimp Ok for starters, from a feats standpoint, the Tarrasque does suck it a little. Alertness? SIX Toughness feats? Honestly, if you're going to use Big T, change some feats first. Even if you wanted to keep Alertness, Improved Toughness will add 45 Hp, far more useful than the 18 that ALL SIX Toughnesses grant, leaving you with 5 feats to work with. I'd suggest these: Ability Focus (Awesome Blow), Improved Toughness, Mobility, Multiattack, Power Throw, Run, and Spring Attack. I'll explain some of these choices later. The tarrasque has melee attacks only, so all you have to do to avoid getting killed by it is to avoid getting into melee combat. Let's look at the ape entry in the Monster Manual, shall we? Intelligence 2. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but gorillas, chimps, monekys, and other such animals are smart enough to pick something up and hurl it at a perceived threat, right? So what's stopping Big T, who has a 3 Int, from grabbing a rock, a cart, or the fighter, and hurling that at whatever is bothering it? Ok, Big T's Dexterity is 16, giving him a +3 bonus to his +48 base attack. Oh, but we gave him Power Throw, allowing him to use his Strength, which is 45, instead of Dex with thrown weapons, meaning that he'd have a +53 total modifier (48 + 17 - 8 [size] - 4 ) for his ranged attack before taking into account range penalties. Hardly safe from a distance. The ability to fly, or a sufficiently high movement rate on the ground should take care of that. I'll start with the easy one first. Rush (Ex): Once per minute, the normally slow moving tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet. Now, with the lack of flight, a wizard with a [I]fly spell should be safe, right? Well, as I showed above, Big T CAN have ranged attacks, meaning he's not completely safe. However, let's say you meant that Big T wouldn't be able to get up in the caster's muck. Well, here's where we look at Big T's skills. Magical beasts get (2 + Int mod, x4 at 1st HD, minimum 1) when it comes to skill points. This would mean that Big T should have 49 skill points, cuz he's only got a 3 Int. Now, I agree with the 13 ranks in Listen and Spot. This leaves him with 26 skill points. If you want to keep the 12 ranks in Survival, that's ok too. This leaves 12 points. Now, why he has Search is beyond me. My suggestion 12 ranks in Jump. Ok so far, his Jump modifier is 12 + 17: 29. Let's take into account some things; You gain a +4 bonus for every 10 ft greater than 30 ft you have. Normally, he only has a 30 ft movement. However, when he rushes, he's got a 150 ft (120 ft more than 30 ft) movement, adding +48 (12 x 4) to his Jump modifier of 29. Now, since this only would work if he uses his Rush ability, he'd be considered as having taken a running start to his Jump, giving him an addition +4, from the Run feat, to his check, for a total of 81 before rolling. Even if Big T rolls a 1, he'd be able to a 20 ft vertical leap, easy. And, according to the table on page 77 of the Player's Handbook, Big T already has a vertical reach of 128 ft. So the flying wizard may not be as safe as he thinks he is. The frightful presence could be a problem, but all you have to do to avoid that, is stay more than 60 feet away, or have imunity to fear via any one of dozens of methods. True. Poop on Frightful Presence. That takes care of defending against the Tarrasque, now what about offence? Dealing hit point damage is a waste of time, so just finish the Tarrasque of with some sort of technique that doesn't deal hit point damage. True Good options include: Turn it into stone. Flesh to Stone is a 6th level spell, meaning the "low to mid level" mage would need to be at least 11th level. Its Medium range could easily be negated, via the ways shown above. Turn it into a mouse. Baleful Polymorph is 5th level and Polymorph Any Object is 8th level. Both only have Close range, putting the mage in harm's way. Teleport it to the moon, another planet, or the surface of the sun. As undoubtedly many people who type faster than I will have said, you can't teleport somewhere you haven't been. Oh, you can try, but it'll probably screw up in your face. Also, teleport requires touching Big T. Not where I'd want my caster to be for certain. Lock it behind permanent walls of force. A wall of force big enough to encase the tarrasque would require multiple high level casters. I'm not going to go into detail on this as it was covered in a previous thread. Also, the high level AND XP cost required to permanecy ALL those walls wouldn't be worth it. In addition, a higher level caster, who didn't have all his XP drained by making a tarrasque-aquarium, could come along and dispel the whole works. Ability drain it (it is imune to ability damage, but not ability drain) Perhaps, but Big T has a +38 to his Fort save. Granted he could roll a 1, but it would take days, perhaps weeks, before he dropped. Yes, spell resistance is a problem, but there are various spells and special abilities that can allow even a mid level wizard to overcome SR 32. Again true, but this would require a highly specialized caster. And yes, the Tarassque has good saves. But a one always fails. Noted Since the Tarrasque posses no offensive threat, you can have all the time in the world to blast away with spells until the Tarrasque eventually fails a save. Debunked, sorry. And because it is always hungry, and stupid as a post, it probably won't bother running away until it is too late. My dog is ALWAYS in the mood for food. Now, she's a dog, so she's not all that bright. Now, I'm pretty sure if I set my dog on fire while she was eating, she'd run the hell away, if not turn and bite my face off. Apply the same reasoning to Big T. Yes, he saved vs. your baleful polymorph. Great. Now he knows you're there, and he is always hungry... [Granted, this runs on the theory that you are aware a spell attempting to affect you fails. I could be wrong here.] How else can a low level party defeat a Tarrasque? By becoming high level. [/End Rant]
Yadot 03-30-07, 04:18 PM	*Double take* Huh? Snip stangely polite rant I agree with you for the offence, but it is esay for a cleric to control several Wraiths and sit back and relax as the Tarrasque rolls ones. Does the Shivering Touch spell have a Fortitude save? EDIT: Nevermind. I rememberd the spell does Ability Damage.
420 03-30-07, 04:55 PM	[Granted, this runs on the theory that you are aware a spell attempting to affect you fails. I could be wrong here.] Strangely enough this question was answered today in Ask Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ask). The target of a spell or effect is always aware that he’s rolled a saving throw, though the caster of the spell isn’t revealed. -420
snakeman830 03-30-07, 06:08 PM	I'm afraid I agree with the fact the Tarrasque deserves it's CR. Because of its high saves and good spell-resistance, the chances of a low-level caster affecting it with anything are slim at absolute best. I suppose you could hurl Melf's Acid Arrow at it, but because of its regeneration 40, it will just come and eat you, laughing as your pathetic attacks do nothing. Your best bet for lower levels than 15 is having a monk do quivering palm and hope it rolls a 1 on the fort save. (When My brother and I were testing our epic characters, this actually happened and I was right there to cast wish. It wouldn't have been so amazing if he hadn't later looked into a mirror of opposition and killed his copy with the same exact method.) A 5% chance, but it's just as good as your other hopes. BTW, my PHB is currently on loan, so I think the monk gets QP before 15th level. correct me if I'm wrong.
GhostStepper 03-30-07, 10:51 PM	13th level artificer shows up flying and invisible as the tarrasque ravages the village. He whips out 2 Orb of Acid wands made at caster level 13. He has Double Wand Wielder, Metamagic Twin, Energy Admitxure, Maximize, Wand Mastery, and Quicken. With the first one quickened he fires 3 Energy Admixtured, Twinned, Maximized Orbs of acid for a grand total of 180d6 (1080 damage) if he does not roll a 1. He pulls out a scroll of wish and the creature is gone.
Khalarak Ironclaw 03-30-07, 11:05 PM	The Tarrasque was made using Core rules. Most of the ways to defeat it you've mentioned above require using non-core rules. Therefore you really have no business saying the Tarrasque is weak, because you're using methods that are clearly more powerful than ANYTHING in the core books. The artificer example in particular reeks of brokeness to me. But hey, that's just me. And as a side note, I absolutely despise all the twinked-out crap in all the new splatbooks. It turns really cool MM monsters into jokes.
GhostStepper 03-30-07, 11:36 PM	The Tarrasque was made using Core rules. Most of the ways to defeat it you've mentioned above require using non-core rules. Therefore you really have no business saying the Tarrasque is weak, because you're using methods that are clearly more powerful than ANYTHING in the core books. The artificer example in particular reeks of brokeness to me. But hey, that's just me. And as a side note, I absolutely despise all the twinked-out crap in all the new splatbooks. It turns really cool MM monsters into jokes. I cant argue that the artificer isnt easily breakable but i find it interesting that you seem think core is balanced and non-core is necessarily "twinked out". Im not optimizer but i guarantee you that if you visited the CO boards they could show you some core tactics that would make any core monster weep. If you posted "how to kill a tarrasque with core" on the CO boards youd realize how "twinked out" core is.
AlanBruce 03-30-07, 11:44 PM	I agree. Players today disdain the good 'ol PHB and drool over the Complete books and other such splat material, regarding them as the "real" rulebooks. In all fairness for an icon of D&D monsters, I believe the Tarrasque should have extra powers added, just to give him a good chance against those annoying munchkins. I'm thinking several energy immunities, who knows... Then again, the DM could simply ban non core books, period.
northern_bear 04-02-07, 09:09 AM	Thanks to those who posted. My original intent was (mainly) to see what other ideas people had for defeating the Tarrasque with low level characters or parties. Thanks to the wand wielding Artificer and wraith controlling character for that. Thanks also to those who feel the Tarrasque really is that bad a dude. But I still think he's a wimp. See below. The way challenge ratings are defined, a CR equal to a parties level should be easy to overcome with only moderate danger and resource use. A CR that is 5 above the party level is an extremely challenging encounter, but it is beatable with a high degree of danger, significant resource use, and careful planning. A challenge rating 4 or 5 below party level is a push over. A 19 or 20th level party should be able to anialate the Tarrasque with little or no difficulty at all. A 15th level party should be able to take down the Tarrasque with only minimal use of their resources. As I've tried to point out below, even a 10th or 11th level party should be able to take on a Tarrasque, although it would be dangerous and would require extremely good preperation and heavy resource use. Thus I conclude that the Tarrasque should have a challenge rating of around 14 to 16. My originaly posted estimate of 10 to 11 was, in hind sight, a bit too low. My dog is ALWAYS in the mood for food. Now, she's a dog, so she's not all that bright. Now, I'm pretty sure if I set my dog on fire while she was eating, she'd run the hell away, if not turn and bite my face off. Apply the same reasoning to Big T. Yes, he saved vs. your baleful polymorph. Great. Now he knows you're there. All he knows is that someone, or something, cast some spell at him that didn't have any effect. He has absolutely no idea what that spell was, unless he can make a spell craft check to identify the spell as you cast it. And since it had no effect on him, he probably doesn't think that whatever "that funny feeling" was is worth worrying about. This is not the same as setting your dog on fire. It would be a DM's call, but I would argue that if he makes his save, and thus suffers no ill effects, then it probably isn't enough to make him stop whatever he's doing to focus on the caster. So what's stopping Big T, who has a 3 Int, from grabbing a rock, a cart, or the fighter, and hurling that at whatever is bothering it? Regarding big T taking out a flying enemy. Yes, he could throw a big rock at him. But if the wizard is well prepared, that is easily avoided. Improved invisibility should work nicely. The T can't throw a rock at something he can't see. If that doesn't work, how about this. The wizard rides on the back of his flying henchmen. The wizard takes care of offence, and the henchmen takes care of defence. The henchmen flies in close for the wizard to cast a spell and then flies back to safe distance. At higher levels (or with access to a scroll of higher level), then the spell that makes the caster incorporeal (I forget its name) provides imunity to thrown objects and grappling. Various metamagic feats or special abilities allow the wizard to cast his spells from a reasonably safe distance. Even if Big T rolls a 1, he'd be able to a 20 ft vertical leap, easy. And, according to the table on page 77 of the Player's Handbook, Big T already has a vertical reach of 128 ft. So the flying wizard may not be as safe as he thinks he is. Even if the Tarasque can pull a vertical jump of say, 40 feet, it shouldn't be hard for the wizard to stay more than 40 feet away. The vertical reach is less relevant, because it is mainly a function of the creatures hight. Yes he can reach high, but it is because he is tall. And the wizard only has to be close enough that he can target the creature's head. He doesn't need to be close enough to target the ground at the creature's feet. Both the rock throwing and the jumping issues both ssume that the Tarrasque even TRIES to kill the wizard, rather than continuing to eat cattle on the ground until he fails a save at which point it is too late. Flesh to Stone is a 6th level spell, meaning the "low to mid level" mage would need to be at least 11th level. I'd say that, unless it somehow surprises them, no smart adventurers should ever let themselves get killed by the Tarrasque. But yes, I agree, that a low level party would probably not be able to kill it, unless they had resources way beyond their means. If they did have unlimited resources, say because the king asked them for help, then even a party of 2nd or 3rd level characters could probably defeat the Tarrasque, with around 200,000 to 300,000 gp worth of resources (total, not each). Assuming only average party wealth, I'd say a mid level party could take on the Tarrasque with only a day or two of prep time. The lowest level "save or die" type spell in the PH is balefull pollymorph. Although not technically a save or DIE spell, it will imediately end the combat if the save is failed. This is a 5th level spell, so it is available to a 9th level wizard. If anybody can come up with a good way for PCs below 9th level to take out a Tarrasque, I'd like to hear it. But for now, I will concede the point that a low level party is out of its league. But the Tarrasque is very much beatable by a 9th level party with adequate planning. As undoubtedly many people who type faster than I will have said, you can't teleport somewhere you haven't been. Not true. Unless this is something that has been modified in FAQ or errata. You could use the scrying spell or a crystal ball to look at the moon, study it for an hour, and then teleport there as thought the destination was "very familliar" (97% on target chance). there are various spells and special abilities that can allow even a mid level wizard to overcome SR 32. Again true, but this would require a highly specialized caster. Depending on what source material you allow, it could be done with very little specialization. There was a spell in the spell compendium that grants a +10 bonus on checks to overcome a creature's spell resistance. There was a feat in (forget which book) that lets a caster take 10 on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance. Stick these two together, and any 12th level wizard can automatically beat the Tarrasque's spell resistance. Throw in Spell Penetration and a 10th level caster can automatically overcome the SR. Greater spell penetration, and an 8th level caster can do it. The Tarrasque was made using Core rules. Most of the ways to defeat it you've mentioned above require using non-core rules. Therefore you really have no business saying the Tarrasque is weak, because you're using methods that are clearly more powerful than ANYTHING in the core books. The main spells I list for defeating the Tarrasque (polymorph, teleport, flesh to stone, etc) are straight out of the player's handbook. The main spells and tactics for defending against it (flight, invisibility, moving around) are also straight from the PH. The only non-PH stuff I mentioned were the spell & feat to help beat the monster's spell resistance. But even without these, there are various feats, class abilities, and magic items, that are straight out of core material, that can give a mid level wizard a very decent chance to beat the Tarrasque's spell resistance. I'm afraid I agree with the fact the Tarrasque deserves it's CR. Because of its high saves and good spell-resistance, the chances of a low-level caster affecting it with anything are slim at absolute best. Spell resistance is easily overcome. See above. Good saves are not a problem either. See below. Big T has a +38 to his Fort save. Granted he could roll a 1, but it would take days, perhaps weeks, before he dropped. Incorect. He will roll a one 5% of the time. And he only has to do it once, and then game over. How long will that take? He has a 95% chance of surviving one save. He has a 90% chance of surviving two saves. (Each time he rolls, he has a 95% probability to survive. In order to survive X number of saves, he has to sucesfully save X times in a row. The probability of this happening is equal to 0.95^X ) He has an 86% chance of surving three saves. . . . He has a 60% chance of surviving 10 saves. A 49% chance of suriving 14 saves. 36% chance of surviving 20 saves. 21% chance of surviving 30 saves. etc. For the sake of argument, let's just take the 50% mark, because having a 50% probability to kill the Tarrasque is still pretty good for a 10th level party. A wizard who casts flesh to stone 14 times, will have a better than 50% chance of turning the tarrasque to stone. So how is an 11th level wizard going to be able to cast a 6th level spell 14 times? There are lots of ways. Scrolls or staffs would seem a likely candidate, although it might be argued that the wizard's personal bonuses to beat spell resistance wouldn't apply to spells he cast from a scroll or staff. If this is the case, then how about using a rod of absorption for the wizard to power his own spells. A rod of absorption costs 50,000 gp and has two functions. One, it absorbs spells, and two, it lets the wizard use the stored spell energy. DM's call as to how much a fully charged rod of absorption would cost, but I think it's reasonable to say it costs half price, since one of its primary functions is completely depleted. Even if the DM rules that it would cost full price, or that it isn't available "charged", a 10th level party could still reasonably be expected to afford one, or two if resources are pooled. (Don't forget, I'm assuming the party knows it is going off to fight the Tarrasque, and so has a chance to prepare ahead of time. Buying and charging equipment as necessary.) An 11th level wizard with one, or better yet two fully charged rods of absorption should be able to take down the Tarrasque in 14 rounds of combat. Of course, he still has to survive 14 rounds, but as I've discussed above, I don't think the Tarrasque would pay much attention to him until it was too late. And even if the Tarrasque was paying attention, I question how effective jumping into the air or thowring rocks is going to be. it is esay for a cleric to control several Wraiths and sit back and relax as the Tarrasque rolls ones. Ya man! That's right! Although I would suggest getting some undead that do strength drain, rather than constitution drain. Constitution drain causses a creature to die when its constitution reaches zero. But the Tarrasque can't die unless it is wished dead. This raises technical difficulties. A creature whos strength is drained to zero simply can't move, which eliminates any ruling difficulties.
ZiggZagg 04-02-07, 09:26 AM	If you want the tarrasque to be hard, then change him. I personally, in my last campaign, decided to make him the beast he was intended to. That Tarrasque is legendary, or I would think so, seeing how there is only one (talking normal D&D, don't go into that argument of more than one please) so make him legendary and give him the legendary monster template. Nice stats gains, and a bunch of different abilities to choose from. I chose the reflective hide and improved natural attack. There, now he is a bit tougher. Want more? He already looks like Godzilla, so give him a breath weapon. Compare him to a dragon of CR 20 and give him a breath weapon. Now Big T is back up where he belongs
Raptorial 04-02-07, 09:48 AM	Yes, look at the Tarrasque of legend in the Elite Opponents article. It can be fearsome in combat.
runestar 04-02-07, 09:56 AM	Perhaps, but Big T has a +38 to his Fort save. Granted he could roll a 1, but it would take days, perhaps weeks, before he dropped. Biggy whoop. An allip's wis drain ability has no save. Simply find some way of commanding an allip and have it attack the tarrasque. The tarrasque cannot harm the allip(since it is incorporeal and requires an actual +1 weapon to harm, while the tarrasque's natural weapons are merely treated as epic for purposes of overcoming dr, not harming incorporeal foes). This means that it will not be long before an allip drains its wis all the way down to zero.:) Alternatively, gate in a solar, and have it pelt the tarrasque with slaying arrows. It is only a matter of time before the tarrasque rolls a natural 1, killing it instantly. Follow up with its free wish. The most annoying thing is the 5000xp needed to cast wish(and possibly miracle). It might just be better to let the tarrasque continue on its rampage, since this actually constitutes a net xp loss for mages.:P
DrMorganes 04-02-07, 11:06 AM	Interesting points, but ultimately they're all blatant metagaming. Given enough out-of-character knowledge and unrestricted access to every sourcebook published to date, it's entirely too easy to build characters optimized to any given task and reduce what should have been a memorable climax to a long campaign to nothing more than an exercise in number crunching. *tsk* Let's bring this back into an organic game, where your characters aren't optimized for the single task of Tarrasque slaying, prestige classes are tied to organizations with goals and membership requirements (as is recommended in the Dungeon Master's Guide!), and not every wizard in the world knows Orb of Acid exists simply because the Spell Compendium was published. Let's also assume that Big T has been dozing for the last few centuries, has passed from living memory of humans, and seems little more than a story to most other races. Suddenly, he's awake, hungry, and causing all sorts of trouble in the elven lands. The elves - being a long-lived race - have never been numerous. Nearly 100 have died trying to kill, contain, or redirect Big T. Some are on diplomatic missions to the dwarven nations to seek allies among their ancient rivals. Some have gone abroad seeking the knowledge and power needed to stop this living machine of destruction. The rest have scattered, seeking safety where they can find it. Enter the PCs. They've never even heard of this thing. It sounds like a dragon of some sort - perhaps a drake instead of a true dragon - but nobody is truly certain. There are legends only half-remembered in human lands, but any bard will tell you that though legends hold a kernel of truth they are wildly unreliable. Without metagaming, there is no way for the PCs to even understand what they are facing, let along devise an effective way of dealing with it! Enter the concepts of research, Knowledge Checks, Bardic Knowledge, Legend Lore spells, divinations, etc, etc. Time is short, expectations are high, and Big T isn't just going to sit down for a cuppa joe and the morning paper(boy) whilst the PCs get their act together. He's HUNGRY and those tasty elven forests will only last about a week before he moves on to more fertile grounds, leaving a decimated mess in his wake!
northern_bear 04-02-07, 11:17 AM	An allip's wis drain ability has no save. Simply find some way of commanding an allip and have it attack the tarrasque. The tarrasque cannot harm the allip(since it is incorporeal and requires an actual +1 weapon to harm, while the tarrasque's natural weapons are merely treated as epic for purposes of overcoming dr, not harming incorporeal foes). Another good example. Thanks Runestar. But are you sure that the Tarrasque can't hit an incorporeal foe? I would think that if his natural attacks count as magic for overcoming damage reduction, then they should also count as magic for hitting incorporeal opponents, although they would still suffer a 50% miss chance. If the Tarrasque can't hit an incorporeal foe at all, then this provides an even more fool proof defence against its attacks. Wizard casts an incorporeality spell on himself, and then casts spells at the tarrasque with impunity. How about, incorporeal wizard with ghost touch gauntlet casting touch spells?
northern_bear 04-02-07, 11:44 AM	Interesting points, but ultimately they're all blatant metagaming. Given enough out-of-character knowledge and unrestricted access to every sourcebook published to date, it's entirely too easy to build characters optimized to any given task and reduce what should have been a memorable climax to a long campaign to nothing more than an exercise in number crunching. Part of my point was that the Tarrasque could be killed by a fairly average party, NOT just one that was optimized for Tarrasque slaying. The wizard example I provided used only two non-core material abilities. One feat, and one spell. Both the feat and the spell are extremely useful, and I would expect that a lot of wizards would want to take them, not simply Tarrasque slaying specialist wizards. Even without those feats though, the Tarrasque is still beatable by a generic players handbook wizard. And a cleric who is capable of controlling undead who will ability drain the Tarrasque isn't highly optimized either. That's just a regular cleric. Let's bring this back into an organic game, where your characters aren't optimized for the single task of Tarrasque slaying, prestige classes are tied to organizations with goals and membership requirements (as is recommended in the Dungeon Master's Guide!), and not every wizard in the world knows Orb of Acid exists simply because the Spell Compendium was published. My example wizard, as well as the clerics that other people have suggested, did not need a prestige class. The sample wizard did have a non-core feat and know one non-core spell. It is up to the DM to decide if that feat or spell exists in his game world. But if they do exist, then it is not too unreasonable to expect that a PC might have access to them. They are both useful enough that if they existed in the world, they would also probably be popular. But like I said, even without these non-specialised abilities, the Tarrasque is still very beatable. Enter the PCs. They've never even heard of this thing. It sounds like a dragon of some sort - perhaps a drake instead of a true dragon - but nobody is truly certain. There are legends only half-remembered in human lands, but any bard will tell you that though legends hold a kernel of truth they are wildly unreliable. Without metagaming, there is no way for the PCs to even understand what they are facing, let along devise an effective way of dealing with it! Enter the concepts of research, Knowledge Checks, Bardic Knowledge, Legend Lore spells, divinations, etc, etc. Time is short, expectations are high, and Big T isn't just going to sit down for a cuppa joe and the morning paper(boy) whilst the PCs get their act together. He's HUNGRY and those tasty elven forests will only last about a week before he moves on to more fertile grounds, leaving a decimated mess in his wake! The thing has killed hundreds of elves. Are those elves a bunch of pathetic losers who don't know how to swing a sword or cast a spell? Probably not. So this thing just kicked the heck out of an entire Elven community. Sounds like it must be pretty tough. And it sounds like it might be a dragon. Dragons are pretty tough too. So the PCs go towards the Elven town, and there they see a 100 foot tall monster uprooting trees and smashing castle walls. Arrows and spells uselessly glancing off its hide. Gee, that thing looks pretty tough. It does look sort of like a dragon too, and although the PCs may not know what a Tarrasque is, they almost certainly know that any dragon which was 100 feet tall, would be way to tough for them to handle. Knowing all of these things, if the PCs still decide that they just have to rescue the elves right this second, and they charge into melee combat with the monster, then they're going to get eaten. And they deserve to get eaten. If the PCs are smart, then before they rush to engage this thing, they'll do a bit of research, formulate a plan, and maybe shop for some necessities. Seing as the thing is in the process of wiping out a small (large?) nation, then the PCs are probably likely to have access to decent resources, and can expect a decent reward. So they don't need to be stingy on equiping themselves. And all the information that they really need in order to defeat the creature is: 1) dont fight it toe to toe 2) it makes people who get close to it scared 3) it has spell resistance 4) it fails its saving throws 5% of the time. 1) should be obvious from seing it in action, and hearing stories about it destroying a whole comunity. 2) this shouldn't be too surprising. Dragons have a similar well known ability. 3) should also not be a surprise. Dragons, and almost every other type of large scary bad thing have a resistance to spells. 4) is a game mechanic that players may not understand in game. However, the wizard is likely to be familiar with some expression like "no creature can resist magic for ever. Sooner or later even the mighties creatures can be brought down by repeated magical attacks." So knowing this information about the Tarrasque, the players should be able to come up with a good plan to defeat the creature. If a few elves die in the mean time, that's unfortunate. But the PCs rushing to meet their doom by recklessly attacking something bigger than they are isn't going to save any elf lives either, is it. Smart PCs will recognize that, and make a plan.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-02-07, 03:35 PM	13th level artificer shows up flying and invisible as the tarrasque ravages the village. He whips out 2 Orb of Acid wands made at caster level 13. He has Double Wand Wielder, Metamagic Twin, Energy Admitxure, Maximize, Wand Mastery, and Quicken. With the first one quickened he fires 3 Energy Admixtured, Twinned, Maximized Orbs of acid for a grand total of 180d6 (1080 damage) if he does not roll a 1. He pulls out a scroll of wish and the creature is gone. And is immediately slapped down for metagaming. It requires a knowledge check with a DC of close to 100 to know that the Tarrasque requires a wish spell to kill.
Masterfulks 04-02-07, 11:39 PM	I just had the T in my game, with a party of 15 and 16ish level pc's. They killed it, but part of the plot was that they had to stop it from destroying the main town. Killing him in a big open field is one thing, but trying to stop him from killing everything works on a different level. I gave him an origin, and part of his power was that his stomach acid dissolved some magic items. That alone would make you not want to get too close and get gulped.
runestar 04-03-07, 02:04 AM	But are you sure that the Tarrasque can't hit an incorporeal foe? I would think that if his natural attacks count as magic for overcoming damage reduction, then they should also count as magic for hitting incorporeal opponents, although they would still suffer a 50% miss chance. Yes, unfortunately, its natural weapons are only treated as magic for overcoming dr, not incorporeality, which are 2 separate effects. Basically, an incorporeal foe requires an actual +1 weapon to damage, a tarrasque lacks that benefit. In case you are wondering, yes, it also means that a 4th lv monk with ki strike: magic cannot harm incorporeal foes with his unarmed strikes either. This is covered under the FAQ. Does the monk’s ki strike (magic) only allow her to overcome damage reduction or does it make her natural attacks count as magic weapons for all effects (such as affecting incorporeal opponents)? The Player’s Handbook states that ki strike affects the monk’s unarmed strikes “for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction,” but says nothing about any other effects. Thus, the monk’s unarmed attacks aren’t considered magic weapons for any other purpose, including affecting incorporeal foes. Also, I am pretty sure that vision should be able to net you some useful information about a tarrasque.:P Even without metagaming, it is not that hard for an average lv17 party to take on a tarrasque on its turf(assuming the dm compensates for its inability to fly by having the PCs face it in a confined place or something). The only annoying thing is the need to use wish to take it down. A lv20 mage gets just 1500xp for defeating it. Now, how much xp did wish drain again?:weep: That just smacks of poor design.
Klinkin 04-03-07, 03:25 PM	I'm still not seeing why a flying wizard is safe. Didn't you see the huge attack bonus the tarrasque gets? The wizard has no chance of dodging.
ZiggZagg 04-03-07, 03:37 PM	Sure, and a Wizard knows exactly how much XP he gets from killing Big T, right? Morganes is right, there is way too much metagaming on this board. Whatever happened to people playing the game, not playing the numbers? It is supposed to be practice that players keep their hands out of the MM and DMG, not they memorize everything in there too. The only reason everyone thinks the Tarrasque is a pushover is because they are operating outside of the basic concepts and rules of the game. If all you want to do is make an uber character that can't be stopped because he has every tactical advantage psooible, go back to playing video games
Ebonyte 04-03-07, 03:38 PM	I always regarded the Tarrasque as a force of nature more than a critter. The Tarrasque is the kind of monster that, in spirit, is meant to be a conventionally unstoppable eating machine, a living swath of destruction. Hence the unique status, the slumber for eons, and the nigh-unkillable efect (even if you DO kill it, it'll reappear somewhere else, unless the wish is put into effect). The Tarrasque is likely meant as a doomsday weapon if under the control of some higher overlord villain. The equivalent of a D&D Death Star. (Stop the Tarrasque before it destroys the city! Stop the Death Star before it blows up Yavin 4!) As for it's use, some DMs just like to throw a monster out there for the sake of it being killed. By my on reckoning, the best way for a DM to utilize the Tarrasque is to have it headed towards a town or city of some importance to them. Then they don't have the luxury of time to wait for natural ones. And the preassure of it makes for high drama. But then, my games are mostly about the story, and far less about the crunch. So to each their own.
Klinkin 04-03-07, 03:48 PM	Very good point. Sic the tarrasque on them without preparation, and they're not going to do so good. Make it just a "run away from the big thing before it eats us all" deal. Remember-an unarmored human can run 120 feet a round. The tarrasque can't match that speed unless it's rushing. However, it can still catch up to someone in heavy armor.
Khael 04-03-07, 03:51 PM	I do agree with some of the others here: Essentially, the only way put forward to really finish the Tarrasque is either metagaming (Becasue my clerics uses allips to counter every big monster, even the frecking dragon with magic missile) or HIGHLY risky .i.e. in range of being Tarrasque fodder. The caster do not know abuot wish since the tarrasque is such a legendary thing, so all they know is this: no matter how many solar's they called in, how many disintigrates, etc. the soddin' thing keeps getting back up. Then of course theres is the other thing: It may not threaten the PCs, but does it have to? Theres likely a good few towns about, and since most of the those magic attacks are bouncing off it and its a hulking monster (Any pits etc. it can probably climb, jumb, or just rip its way out of) those are what'll it hit. And towns peoplea re unlikely to thank you for spending the past three days lauching death spell after death spell, before stopping it half way though the third town. Before it sits back up since no-one knew wish was needed.(unless the allips were used. And how many good clerics will go down this path given the normal assumption undead=evil. Irrespective of what that cleric says, I, the townsman know undead are people eaters. The cleric must burn!). Point is, most of the effective tactics involve metagaming or at least multiple goes, possibly with serious repercussions from the NPCs.
malignor 04-03-07, 03:56 PM	Drown or suffocate it. Regeneration doesn't stop death by suffocation or drowning. Or starvation for that matter. Lure it into a landslide or avalanche.
Khael 04-03-07, 04:01 PM	Drown or suffocate it. Regeneration doesn't stop death by suffocation or drowning. Or starvation for that matter. Lure it into a landslide or avalanche. Don't forget thought, it's a giant monster with a huge strength. That means it can still swim/ heaves it way up. Assuming the avalache doesn't just leave it half buried to dig itself out. Indeed its rules say it can only be slain by wish.
snakeman830 04-03-07, 07:00 PM	If you want to improve the Tarrasque to make it a hell of a lot more of a challenge, I can think of a template in the MM to really boost up the CR. The Ghost template can be legally applied to the Tarrasque. Since undead are immune to non-lethal damage and all damage dealt to the Tarrasque is non-lethal, you have now made it immune to damage. Death effects won't touch it either as undead are immune to those. It is also now protected form ability drain (another undead immunity). So, how would you kill it (short of having a level 104 cleric or level 52 with the sun domain)? Granted, it will not be much of a threat on the material plane, but that is one thing I'd never want to meet on the ethereal.
Flymolo 04-03-07, 07:01 PM	The Tarrasque is a wimp because the Apocalyptic Paragon Pseudonatural DvR 20 Tarrasque advanced to 100 HD is most definitely not a wimp.
runestar 04-03-07, 10:19 PM	Sure, and a Wizard knows exactly how much XP he gets from killing Big T, right? Why shouldn't he? You have been getting xp from your encounters since 1st lv, you will have noticed a distinctive pattern in the way xp is doled out even if you have never opened a DMG in your whole life. Basic elementary math will tell you that the battle is a negative sum game. I suppose the dm could allow your party to procure a scroll of wish beforehand. But then, that would be metagaming in itself already, would it not?:P
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-03-07, 10:33 PM	If you want to improve the Tarrasque to make it a hell of a lot more of a challenge, I can think of a template in the MM to really boost up the CR. The Ghost template can be legally applied to the Tarrasque. Since undead are immune to non-lethal damage and all damage dealt to the Tarrasque is non-lethal, you have now made it immune to damage. Death effects won't touch it either as undead are immune to those. It is also now protected form ability drain (another undead immunity). So, how would you kill it (short of having a level 104 cleric or level 52 with the sun domain)? Granted, it will not be much of a threat on the material plane, but that is one thing I'd never want to meet on the ethereal. Undead lose regeneration.
runestar 04-03-07, 11:09 PM	The half-fiend template looks fun on a tarrasque. Blasphemy with caster lv48?:evillaugh Phrenic looks like a good alternative as well, since all its PSAs are used at a manifestor lv of 48 as well(Spell resistance? What the heck is that?);) . Fission gives you 2 phrenic tarrasques, each protected with force screen and defensive cog, and spamming ultrablasts, dominate and mindthrusts at the PCs.
Ebonyte 04-04-07, 02:57 PM	For the sake of flavor, a "save the world from the unspeakable Cthulhu-esque beast!" can profit from the inclusion of something like a pseudonatural Tarrasque or Purple Worm. Plot-wise, it's best if the players have no idea how to destroy the Tarrasque. Throw NPC parties at it and have them get slaughtered as well. Then, when the characters go to a sage for advice, they find they'll need a certain scroll by the one wizard who, once upon a time, killed something like this (or at least sealed it away). If you want the Tarrasque to be unique, it was just sealed away, and the spell they find (eventually), does the same. If Tarrasque can be a plural, then make it a Wish. In general, I like to keep Wish a rare, rare thing. Then again, I like to keep high levels, rare, too.
snakeman830 04-04-07, 09:54 PM	Undead lose regeneration. Where is this rule written? I've never seen it before.
runestar 04-05-07, 12:08 AM	It is in the MM, under the monster special abilities section. Regeneration (Ex): A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage. The creature automatically heals nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the entry. Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn’t go away. The creature’s descriptive text describes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts; details are in the creature’s descriptive text. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally. A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability. Note that there is one exception though. The Atropal from the ELH has regeneration despite it being an undead. However, it is more likely the exception than the norm due to its special status as an abomination, and thus the designers decided to "fudge the rules a little". Or maybe they just plain screwed up.:D
Taninger 04-05-07, 01:47 AM	One point I'd like to make... it keeps getting brought up how the Tarrasque is too stupid to notice it's being bothered by magic, and since the spell won't affect it until it's too late, it won't stop eating cattle... Bullcrap. Any animal, from humans to dogs, that are being bothered while eating are likely to take care of any pests first... at least, my dogs always have, or tried to. It isn't likely to know juuust what's happening, but it will know it just had magic cast at it... Assuming the magic passes through the SR in order to actually HAVE that 5% chance of succeeding, of course. I'm fairly sure that caster level checks don't usually auto-succeed on a 20 (I could be wrong.) That drops the odds down to .25% for the Tarrasque to be affected by a spell, assuming the mage CAN succeed on a 20. Sure, 11th level casters can beat a SR 32... but I would doubt that they'd do it reliably enough to be able to blow their higher level spells on the thing. And if they do have enough, through scrolls, etc. (including that lovely scroll of wish), then they've got far more wealth than the wealth-per-level charts that Big T was balanced against would suggest. Any spell with a range of Close is a dead caster, with Rush and its reach... it'll be a trick to get in *and* out of range in the same turn without any AoOs or being too close... possible, sure, but requiring some decent planning. To tie back into my first point... Big T isn't an animal. It's damn close, but an Int of 3 makes it sapient... barely. As smart as a Grey Render, so while it might not be able to plan much, it can at least learn from experience and identify basic solutions to problems (even animals can do this)... such as that the thing waving its hands and shooting things at Big T is likely to be a bigger threat than the cattle it's so patiently devouring. Animals frequently attack anything that gets near their kill, the Tarrasque is likely to be smart enough to know that if it can be hurt, it has to fight back. It might not be smart enough to say "Oh no, a wizard. I'm doomed, I'll run.", but it'll still know that humanoids pose *slightly* more threat to it than cattle do. Besides which, any magical solution at mid-levels are only going to be temporary... Polymorphing, Flesh-to-Stone-ing... they'll either be running short on time, or when someone comes along and Stone-to-Flesh-s it later on, it'll be back. No party should realistically have Wish or Miracle much before 17th level anyway, unless they were being clever. Even if you can get in close and polymorph it or teleport it, your chance of success is dismal, and your ability to escape the same turn will likely eat up more of your magical resources... or just some good strategy, which nothing in the game is immune to. So, yes, you can teleport it away, polymorph it, or turn it to stone... but at any mid-level, you're only delaying its eventual return. At higher levels (15 and up, say, when you're supposed to actually be able to fight it) it'll actually be defeated when its CR says it should. As an aside, if you need to make it stronger... Monster of Legend is obvious, but my group found that a Tarrasque with a less stupid feat selection and wings was devastating. Once the sucker can fly, he's pretty hard to stop.
runestar 04-05-07, 02:07 AM	I noticed that the spellwarped template gives sr11+HD, with no cap. This gives the tarrasque sr59...:cool: What is it about the legend template which would make the tarrasque so scary? :confused: And those 6 toughness feats are an eyesore...:weep: I guess one could be swapped out for improved toughness, the rest spent on multiattack and INA/improved crit? Will improved crit stack with augmented crit? Or perhaps give it shock trooper and leap attack. And maybe a means of dire charge or pounce as well... Assuming the magic passes through the SR in order to actually HAVE that 5% chance of succeeding, of course. I'm fairly sure that caster level checks don't usually auto-succeed on a 20 (I could be wrong.) It doesn't need to. Overcoming sr is a joke in 3.5. Assay resistance gives +10 on such checks, arcane mastery lets you take 10, this means any caster with caster lv13 or higher will automatically succeed on overcoming the tarrasque's sr of just 32. It cannot hurt incorporeal foes, so the mage just needs to cast a spell on himself which makes him incorporeal(I am sure there is at least one such spell somewhere?), and pelt the tarrasque with impunity. The tricky problem is its saves though. I suppose you could use limited wish to lower its will save to 13(-7 penalty), and hit it with a dominate monster or some other will-save based spell. Maybe add in another enervation or 2 to guarantee success.:) As an aside, if you need to make it stronger... Monster of Legend is obvious, but my group found that a Tarrasque with a less stupid feat selection and wings was devastating. Once the sucker can fly, he's pretty hard to stop. And if you need to template it for it to actually be of some challenge to the PCs, then what does it say about the thoroughness of its design?:P On a side note, are there any spells which deal int drain?:)
northern_bear 04-05-07, 10:08 AM	One point I'd like to make... it keeps getting brought up how the Tarrasque is too stupid to notice it's being bothered by magic, and since the spell won't affect it until it's too late, it won't stop eating cattle... Bullcrap. Any animal, from humans to dogs, that are being bothered while eating are likely to take care of any pests first... at least, my dogs always have, or tried to. It isn't likely to know juuust what's happening, but it will know it just had magic cast at it... The FAQ has stated that when a creature suceeds on a save, then it knows that it just avoided some sort of effect. It does not say that succeeding on a save causes the creature any discompfort. As a DM I would be inclined to rule that failing a save produces a somewhat unpleasant sensation, but that it isn't anything too painful or bothersome. Maybe like getting a mosquito bite, or bitten by a small fly. Continuing the dog example that many people seem to like, how would a dog react to being bothered by a mosquito. If the mosquito came close it might bite at it. And it would try to brush it off with its tale. But a dog is not going to abandon whatever it is doing (eating) so it can spend 10 or 15 minutes chasing after a mosquito flying around. I don't think that suceeding on a save is bad enough, nor is the Tarrasque smart enough, that it will abandon what it is doing just so it can try to catch some wizard who, so far, hasn't really done anything to hurt it.
northern_bear 04-05-07, 10:10 AM	Drown or suffocate it. Regeneration doesn't stop death by suffocation or drowning. Or starvation for that matter. Lure it into a landslide or avalanche. I used to think this was a good idea. But I read somewhere on the WoC site that the Tarrasque couldn't be drowned, sufocated, or starved. Of course, if it can't starve, then one must wonder, why is always hungry?
northern_bear 04-05-07, 10:20 AM	Sure, and a Wizard knows exactly how much XP he gets from killing Big T, right? Morganes is right, there is way too much metagaming on this board. Whatever happened to people playing the game, not playing the numbers? It is supposed to be practice that players keep their hands out of the MM and DMG, not they memorize everything in there too. The only reason everyone thinks the Tarrasque is a pushover is because they are operating outside of the basic concepts and rules of the game. If all you want to do is make an uber character that can't be stopped because he has every tactical advantage psooible, go back to playing video games The characters have never fought a Tarrasque before, and therefore they don't (definitively) know how to beat the Tarrasque. I agree. But I'm guessing that in a standard D&D game, the players at least know a little bit about dragons, even if they haven't personally fought one. Well fighting the tarrasque is a lot like fighting a dragon. Except that the Tarrasque can't fly, it is really slow, it has no breath weapon, it can't cast spells, and it is exceptionally stupid. It does have more hit points though, and it regenerates. If the characters approach the Tarrasque the same way that they would approach a slow stupid wingless dragon without ranged attacks, then I'd say they have a really good chance of beating it. That's not metagaming. It's just smart players.
Khael 04-05-07, 10:21 AM	I used to think this was a good idea. But I read somewhere on the WoC site that the Tarrasque couldn't be drowned, sufocated, or starved. Of course, if it can't starve, then one must wonder, why is always hungry? Just because you can't starve to death, doesn't mean you can't be hungry. It just means being hungry won't kill you in the end. The characters have never fought a Tarrasque before, and therefore they don't (definitively) know how to beat the Tarrasque. I agree. But I'm guessing that in a standard D&D game, the players at least know a little bit about dragons, even if they haven't personally fought one. Well fighting the tarrasque is a lot like fighting a dragon. Except that the Tarrasque can't fly, it is really slow, it has no breath weapon, it can't cast spells, and it is exceptionally stupid. It does have more hit points though, and it regenerates. If the characters approach the Tarrasque the same way that they would approach a slow stupid wingless dragon without ranged attacks, then I'd say they have a really good chance of beating it. That's not metagaming. It's just smart players. Problem is here, what works on a dragon, won't put down the big T. When your best attacks are either being shrugged off, or monster just heals up the damage, it'll be a problem. Reemember you missed off 'attacks, that reflects beams, can put on a surge of speed, heals 40 damage a turn, and won't get really hurt by any attack you make.' Essentially as it is, pretty much any tactic you can use in-game to actually beat the T, is meta-gaming (Unless your players do summon Allips to deal with big monsters, and wish on every dragon to make sure its dead...)
snakeman830 04-05-07, 11:41 AM	One big point that most people seem to be ignoring is this: Any creature can be defeated with realative ease with lots of preperation. I believe the CR is meant for a spontaneous encounter where the PCs had no idea it was coming. (perhaps it just started its rampage yesterday). Going back to the elf city example, whats to say it hasn't already gone back to sleep by the time the PCs have finished with their preperations? It's usually only active for a few days at a time. As far as the tarrasque succeeding on its save and knowing, it's got a really good spot check. It would probably not only would see the wizard, but would probably throw one of those cows at it as well, just to make it go away or come closer for it to eat. Incorporeality limits the spell choices the wizard has that will effect the Big T, so the most powerful spells won't effect it if the wizard is playing it safe.
runestar 04-05-07, 12:55 PM	Is there even such a thing as "insufficient preparation" at high lvs? The PCs should have sufficient resources to account for just about any possible contingency, and should expect, and be able to deal with a variety of different scenarios. :)
snakeman830 04-05-07, 01:29 PM	Which is why the Big T's CR is for higher levels.
Ebonyte 04-05-07, 01:48 PM	That can be the case, depending entirely on the nature of the campaign and gaming group. In TimeSpike's original Iyannah Campaign, by the end (lvl 21) we were fully mobile, well-funded, and were carrying enough magical gear to deal with any kind of "evil" threat that came ur way, from thirsting sand to Bags of Holding filled to the brim with holy water (I loved doing flybys). On the other hand, we're reaching the end of my Ravenloft campaign, and while the charactersare doing pretty well, they are, by no means, prepared for the number of creatures that could be arrayed against them. That's where the real strength of the MMs are: there is a beast for all seasons somewhere, and any number of templates and modifiers to change it's nature enough to keep groups on their toes. And that's just the numbers! Imagine the PLOT!!!
Taninger 04-05-07, 02:01 PM	I noticed that the spellwarped template gives sr11+HD, with no cap. This gives the tarrasque sr59...:cool: What is it about the legend template which would make the tarrasque so scary? :confused: And those 6 toughness feats are an eyesore...:weep: I guess one could be swapped out for improved toughness, the rest spent on multiattack and INA/improved crit? Will improved crit stack with augmented crit? Or perhaps give it shock trooper and leap attack. And maybe a means of dire charge or pounce as well... I wasn't aware of that template... I don't read as many of the books as would likely be of use... I agree very much about the six toughness feats. That's kind of like *asking* to make the Tarrasque easier, Savage Species (and even the MM) have better feat choices, even if we try and limit it to power attack. I think that MoL would make it more dangerous in that it would increase its stats all-round, and the small boost to int will always help it out. The main reason is for the Haste ability, as that gets rid of a lot of the "slow" problem... but I'm sure that there are better templates out there, that's just the first one I noticed. It doesn't need to. Overcoming sr is a joke in 3.5. Assay resistance gives +10 on such checks, arcane mastery lets you take 10, this means any caster with caster lv13 or higher will automatically succeed on overcoming the tarrasque's sr of just 32. I need to find Assay Resistance... It's probably somewhere *really* obvious too, and it'd be useful enough that any Wiz could justify having it... I wasn't aware *just* how easy it is to overcome SR, but there are lots of ways that have started popping into my head ever since you said that. I concede this point completely. This'd be one thing I'd suggest fixing... Although it still has a flat 30% chance of reflecting lines, cones, and rays (ranged touch attacks, as well as Magic Missile)... that mostly applies to direct damage spells, which are the silly way to go about bringing Big T down. It cannot hurt incorporeal foes, so the mage just needs to cast a spell on himself which makes him incorporeal(I am sure there is at least one such spell somewhere?), and pelt the tarrasque with impunity. Point conceded, assuming that there is such as spell that won't mess with casting... but I'm 90% sure there is. The tricky problem is its saves though. I suppose you could use limited wish to lower its will save to 13(-7 penalty), and hit it with a dominate monster or some other will-save based spell. Maybe add in another enervation or 2 to guarantee success.:) The only flaw here would be Limited Wish's taking a high level spell slot, but... its not really that much of an issue... The high saves are its only real saving grace. And if you need to template it for it to actually be of some challenge to the PCs, then what does it say about the thoroughness of its design?:P On a side note, are there any spells which deal int drain?:) This is true. I'm not saying that it needs it, only that if you find your PCs too powerful, it might help. Although I *would* love to see Big T done better. The FAQ has stated that when a creature suceeds on a save, then it knows that it just avoided some sort of effect. It does not say that succeeding on a save causes the creature any discompfort. As a DM I would be inclined to rule that failing a save produces a somewhat unpleasant sensation, but that it isn't anything too painful or bothersome. Maybe like getting a mosquito bite, or bitten by a small fly. Continuing the dog example that many people seem to like, how would a dog react to being bothered by a mosquito. If the mosquito came close it might bite at it. And it would try to brush it off with its tale. But a dog is not going to abandon whatever it is doing (eating) so it can spend 10 or 15 minutes chasing after a mosquito flying around. I don't think that suceeding on a save is bad enough, nor is the Tarrasque smart enough, that it will abandon what it is doing just so it can try to catch some wizard who, so far, hasn't really done anything to hurt it. Fair enough, I suppose I was working on the premise that the Tarrasque was smarter than a dog and might be able to... but I can see how I would be wrong. I would also have thought that the PCs'd be more like small mice or rats, due to the fact that at this point SOMEONE like them must have tried to attack it before... But, yeah... I can see what you're saying, so I suppose it depends on how you take the feeling of the spell to be. I (think I) remember reading someone say "it gets a tingling feeling in its stomach" in relation to the spells and built off of that. I am most thoroughly defeated. I can see now how a minorly optimized party of 13th level can take the Tarrasque down... even if it isn't very likely, and can't keep him to stay *dead* for all that long.
Jaragoth 04-09-07, 06:33 PM	Continuing the dog example that many people seem to like, how would a dog react to being bothered by a mosquito. If the mosquito came close it might bite at it. And it would try to brush it off with its tale. But a dog is not going to abandon whatever it is doing (eating) so it can spend 10 or 15 minutes chasing after a mosquito flying around. Just wanted to quickly address this... You have obviously never seen my dog try and catch a fly, most hilarious thing ever! Just sorta jumping up at the air randomly until it spits out some little black thing (ANOTHER WIZARD BITES THE DUST!) But then again... I suppose comparing the all mighty (Or not so almighty) Tarrasque to a Chihuahua is a little cruel and wierd... oh well... :D
Tetujin 04-09-07, 08:22 PM	13th level artificer shows up flying and invisible as the tarrasque ravages the village. He whips out 2 Orb of Acid wands made at caster level 13. He has Double Wand Wielder, Metamagic Twin, Energy Admitxure, Maximize, Wand Mastery, and Quicken. With the first one quickened he fires 3 Energy Admixtured, Twinned, Maximized Orbs of acid for a grand total of 180d6 (1080 damage) if he does not roll a 1. He pulls out a scroll of wish and the creature is gone. This is, of course, beside the point, but there are a couple serious issues with this tactic. 1)Metamagic feats don't work like that. A Maximized Twinned Orb of Acid is treated as casting a Maximized Orb of Acid and another Orb of Acid at the same time. The Maximized part is not twinned and the Twinned part is not maximized. So in the above example, a hypothetical Quickened (Followed by a non-twinned) Twinned Maximized would do 30d6+15*6 (Average 195) per wand. This is beside the point that a quickened spell in wand is a waste since they still take a standard action to activate (see swift spell wand arguments settled in the beginning of the SpellComp). 2)The Metmagic Spell Trigger ability you're using has been clarified to allow only one metamagic feat to be applied per spell trigger item. So, you're damage in this situation would be more like Dual-Wielding Twinned Orb of Acid wands, which would deal ((15d6*2)*2) = 60d6 = 210 average Acid damage, which, at that rate, would reduce your items to 7 uses each (Base 1 charge +2 Dual Wield + 4 Metamagic, correct me if I'm wrong). Meaning keeping that up for all seven rounds you're just barely doing enough damage to drop him on average (factoring in seven rounds of Regeneration). Your wands are also costing you 17k each to create, and that scroll is costing you ~28k, so you're look at 62k worth of items (not counting how you're flying since it's negligible at this level) of you 110k you get as 13th level starting gold. So in this one encounter you're completely consuming 63% of your starting wealth. So yes, it could still be done, but would by no means be easy, especially if you're dodging wagons and charging springing attacks as previously mentioned which you don't have much a defense against.
runestar 04-10-07, 02:37 AM	A Maximized Twinned Orb of Acid is treated as casting a Maximized Orb of Acid and another Orb of Acid at the same time. The Maximized part is not twinned and the Twinned part is not maximized. Twin and Maximize do stack with each other. A twinned maximized orb is the equivalent of 2 maximized orbs of acid. This has been clarified in the FAQ.:)
northern_bear 04-10-07, 09:58 AM	Twin and Maximize do stack with each other. A twinned maximized orb is the equivalent of 2 maximized orbs of acid. This has been clarified in the FAQ.:) Really? That seems weird. Enhanced and maximized would give you max regular damage, plus half of regular damage. But NOT one and a half times damage, all maximized. If Enhance spell and maximize spell apply sperately and don't work together, then why would twin spell and maximize spell work together, rather than also applying seperately? But I looked it up in the FAQ, and you're right. Weird. You can also combine energy admixture and maximize spell to effectively get maximized double damage. So I guess that just means enhance spell is the pathetic loser of metamagic feats, since it can't be combined with maximise, even though all the other damage increasing metamagic feats can be.
runestar 04-10-07, 10:08 AM	Really? That seems weird. Enhanced and maximized would give you max regular damage, plus half of regular damage. But NOT one and a half times damage, all maximized. Because wotc explicitly took great pains to point out that maximize and empower do not stack with each other, but remained silent with regards to other combinations, I suppose it can be inferred that this is an exception to the normal stacking rules for metamagic, not the norm. As such, it is not unreasonable to conclude that all metamagic combinations stack, barring the maximize+empower combo, for whatever reason remains their own. And I think you mean empower spell? Enhance spell is another epic metamagic feat. Empower is still a very strong metamagic feat, just don't use it with maximize spell. This does beg the question. If I cast a twinned, empowered fireball, both fireballs get empowered, right?:P
dman11235 06-06-07, 08:22 PM	Has everyone just been forgetting about the carapace? No ranged spells work against the Tarrasque. Not even MM. Overwhelm is how you do it. I am playing a gestalt campaign, and we faced the shadow T, and the beguiler/rogue took it out in round two (one to get there and cast invisibility, and one to overwhelm it, with cloaked casting).
dman11235 06-06-07, 08:24 PM	If you cast a maximized empowered spell, you will do max regular damage, and then add half of what you roll to that.
Johnny_Angel 06-06-07, 10:47 PM	A lot of people seem to be posting ways to make the T tougher, so here's my suggestion: tarrasque + paragon + monster of legend + monster of legacy if you really want to go crazy... mix 1 titan with 1 tarrasque; blend together with the tauric template
Ace_of_time 06-06-07, 11:03 PM	Very good point. Sic the tarrasque on them without preparation, and they're not going to do so good. Make it just a "run away from the big thing before it eats us all" deal. Remember-an unarmored human can run 120 feet a round. The tarrasque can't match that speed unless it's rushing. However, it can still catch up to someone in heavy armor. Lets say you are both running. You 120' per round for 10 round = 1200' in one minute. Big T has a run of 80' per round for 9 rounds + 600' for number ten =1320' for ten rounds. How is that getting away?:confused:
runestar 06-06-07, 11:03 PM	tarrasque + paragon + monster of legend + monster of legacy And it still can't fly...;)
Ace_of_time 06-06-07, 11:10 PM	2. If your not getting close that takes out any touch spells. He/she/it can not be hit by lines, rays, cones,and magic missile. I would also add orbs in because they weren't in the book when they made him and magic missile is reflected and it is like an orb and is suppose to hit anything. What spells does that leave you? Than you can roll SR.
Ace_of_time 06-06-07, 11:14 PM	And it still can't fly...;) Vertical reach is 128'. that just on the ground and him not jumping
runestar 06-06-07, 11:27 PM	What spells does that leave you? Than you can roll SR. Dominate monster for one. Given its sucky will save of just +20, you can easily lower that to +13 with a single application of limited wish, which means it will fail the expected will save dc of 30 about 85% of the time. Assay resistance makes its sr negligible. I suppose a warlock could just hover overhead and keep spamming baleful polymorph as well. Eventually, the big T has a to roll a natural 1. And it loses its regeneration in its new form... Vertical reach is 128'. that just on the ground and him not jumping How are you getting this...?:confused:
Ace_of_time 06-06-07, 11:43 PM	PHB under jump skill check entry. Dominate monster is not that useful and everyone just assumes it will just stand there and let you cast once per round. How many rounds would it take too to drain him down that far? Imp weapons are only -4. I don't see why he could not just take a tree and throw it at you.
Nathreet 06-07-07, 12:57 AM	200' deep pit trap. Walls = loose shale.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-07-07, 12:58 AM	A few points. 1. Big T AoOs with his bite attack, which he has improved grab with. He sports a +57 to attack rolls and a +81 to grapple checks. He also has twenty feet of reach and can make three AoOs per round. Then there is Frightful Presence, DC 36 will save or become shaken. 57 is higher than 95% of 20th level build's AC and the Big T's grapple check cannot be beaten even if it was a +1 since creatures two sizes smaller than the grappler automaticly fail. Without some broken splatbooked build armed with a ring of freedom of movement your not going to win by meleeing this thing at a lower than 20 level. 2. Nothing in the Big T's SRD entry says he cannot run. Nothing says you can attack while taking a full run action. Pre-Round, party on big T is 100 feet away. Round 1A: the wizard's ray attacks fail and the arrow damage is not worth noting. The Big T rushes in and lays the smack down. Round 2AA: Wizard casts fly defensivily and gets AoO as he moves away from the Big T's bite attack, it hits and he wins the grapple check, bye-bye Mr. Wizard. Round 2AB: They all run away, someone gets eaten. Round 2AC: The use a retreat action and Big T just uses run, this works untill the players run out of space to run to. Then they die. Round 1B: As A, but the wizard casts fly and moves away before the Big T charges so only the rest of the party get eaten. 3. CR system is based on a party consisting of a cleric, a rogue, a fighter, and a wizard all at the same level using point buy 25. Not point buy 46 with a warblade / swordsage / master of nine, wizard / incantrix / archmage, trikeen rogue / assassin and a cleric with DMM using 300% of their expendable items drived from 89 books and metagaming knowledge of the Big T. Keep in mind, when metagaming knowledge about your foe and building an powerful charecter out of the worst balenced classes available your not proving the monster is over CRed, your just proving how much you want to argue on the forums and cheat to "win" in a game where everyone stops playing when they become too powerful. 4. CR 20 means a party level 20 should use up 20% of their expendable resources in killing this thing. The idea of being level 12 and casting a flesh to stone 12 times is adsurb. You need to cast the Assay Spell Resistance each and evey time to big the Big T's SR and since fly may only last 12 rounds for you, lets count that twice. Flesh To Stone (6th), one from the wizards 6th level slots, 11 from scrolls at 1,650 gp per. Assay Spell Resistance (4th), five from the 4th & 5th level slots, plus 7 form scrolls at 700gp per. Fly (3rd), two from spell slots. 23,000gp spent and all most all of the wizard's spell slots ...of the 66,000gp total the wizard can own at once counting unexpendable items. The so call combo took 19 rounds too. And they still need a scroll of wish which costs 53,825gp to kill it. And what of the rest of the party? You know, those other three other guys that prevent 3rd level chain using fighter/rogue from killing the wizard in his sleep. Within the first round or two the fighter got eaten and the rogue ran away. The cleric is hiding and hoping you do something useful before he gets stomped on, he ran out of healing spells on the 5 rounds ago and is wishing the DM let him/her take Divine Metamagic at the last level. Killing 3/4 of the party and making them spend all of their gp just for a 50% chance of winning is not a CR 11 encounter. 5. Again, the Big T is only 25% of a level 20 party's battles for the day. That means its "just another battle" to them and not somethign special. A Big T also makes a poor BBEG for a party of 17~18's since BBEGs have minions and traps and tend prepeared for the party. You also tend fight BBEGs as the last fight of the day after said minions wear them down some. Tossing it out to levels 16s might be fair if the party knows they're facing some super powerful dragonish creature and it is the entire quest & hook planned for that section of the campaign. *** With all that said I'll join in with an easy tactic to beat up a Big T at an early level too. Stilled Permanency (6th) on a Stilled Vilolated Wall Of Fire (5th) from inside the Big T's stomach. Pick your way to escape and just wait for the vile damage to accumulate to a point the Big T is in the hole with HP. Level wise, with 10 in acid resistance and DR 10 granted from Heart Of Earth the wizard will need at least 34 hp to beat the average damage delt to him/her. This includes bite damage and three rounds in the stomache for the two spells and a Ddoor to escape. When you can pay for a scroll of wish come back and finish the job. Dirty tricks used, you only have to beat the Big T's SR once with the wall and you can use Assay Spell Resistance before getting eaten, Heart Of Earth for a free StoneSkin spell, Metagaming knowledge. Resources used, three 4th level slots, one 5th level slot, one scroll of Stilled Permanency held in hand that costs 14,150gp and 34 HP.
Johnny_Angel 06-07-07, 02:03 AM	And it still can't fly...;) o contrare sugar bear....as a Monster of Legend the Big T gains the ability to cast a small number of cleric spells ;) (well, if that's the ability you choose from the template) but, I guess to make things easier you could always tack on one of the following as well: winged, half-dragon, ..........
runestar 06-07-07, 02:15 AM	No one ever said anything about meleeing this guy. Physical combat is what it excels in, and that is naturally what the PCs should try to work around, not indulge. At higher lvs, PCs pretty much do possess the capabilities to overcome virtually any sort of challenge, or at least the resources to readily procure those means. By comparison, your scenario seems to suggest that the PCs are somehow being run by morons. They spot the tarrasque, the 1st thing they should be doing is to immediately fly out of reach, then plan their attack strategy. A more typical combat scenario would go somewhere along this line... Round1: Tarrasque charges to activate frightful presence. PCs laugh due to the heroes' feast they had for breakfast. Attacks fighter (assuming the fighter was dumb enough to remain within reach), deals decent damage, tries to grapple. Fighter points out the freedom of movement spell the cleric had cast on him prior to combat. DM goes :bored: Wizard casts limited wish on the tarrasque to lower its will save, quickened dim-door away (if not already far away), hovers in mid air out of reach thanks to his fly spell. Rogue tumbles away to safety. The bugger only has a reach of 20ft, so if the fighter could find some way to get 30 ft reach, he can fly over the tarrasque, hover in place and attack with impunity. Tossing it out to levels 16s might be fair if the party knows they're facing some super powerful dragonish creature and it is the entire quest & hook planned for that section of the campaign. Barring the need to cast 9th lv spells to actually take it down permanently (my biggest peeve, since this actually results in a net xp deficit for the party mage, unless you allow him to gate in a solar for his wish SLA), a lv17 party should be able to take it down readily enough, simply by taking advantage of its aforementioned shortcomings. Simply put - try not to engage it in melee whenever possible. 3. CR system is based on a party consisting of a cleric, a rogue, a fighter, and a wizard all at the same level using point buy 25. Not point buy 46 with a warblade / swordsage / master of nine, wizard / incantrix / archmage, trikeen rogue / assassin and a cleric with DMM using 300% of their expendable items drived from 89 books and metagaming knowledge of the Big T. I was not aware that I was somehow implying that the PCs consisted of those aforementioned builds either.:rolleyes: The idea of being level 12 and casting a flesh to stone 12 times is adsurb. You need to cast the Assay Spell Resistance each and evey time to big the Big T's SR and since fly may only last 12 rounds for you, lets count that twice. When did I mention flesh to stone? I was referring to a warlock, which can fly all day long due to fell flight. Just spam its SLAs, and sheer probability indicates that the tarrasque eventually has to fail its sr, and roll a natural 1 on its relevant saves. It is all a matter of time. This has nothing to do with dirty tricks. You get xp for overcoming an encounter. How you do it is irrelevant. It is not stipulated that you must beat it down in a 1-on-1 matchup. A gated solar pelting it with slaying arrows is fair game as well. The tarrasque is simply quite poorly conceived, because it fails to fully take into account the vast resources PCs will have at that lv. It is little more than a big, dumb bruiser, and that is really one of the easier foes to outsmart, simply because they are so linear and predictable to run. Just my 2 cents.
Phalo 06-07-07, 03:02 AM	I'm afraid I agree with the fact the Tarrasque deserves it's CR. Because of its high saves and good spell-resistance, the chances of a low-level caster affecting it with anything are slim at absolute best. I suppose you could hurl Melf's Acid Arrow at it, but because of its regeneration 40, it will just come and eat you, laughing as your pathetic attacks do nothing. Your best bet for lower levels than 15 is having a monk do quivering palm and hope it rolls a 1 on the fort save. (When My brother and I were testing our epic characters, this actually happened and I was right there to cast wish. It wouldn't have been so amazing if he hadn't later looked into a mirror of opposition and killed his copy with the same exact method.) A 5% chance, but it's just as good as your other hopes. BTW, my PHB is currently on loan, so I think the monk gets QP before 15th level. correct me if I'm wrong. I might be wrong but doesn't entering into Big T square provoke a Aoo Thus dealing 4d8+17 damage best case you take 21 damage worst normal case you take 49 triple if hit crits thats a serious attack
Phalo 06-07-07, 03:50 AM	No one ever said anything about meleeing this guy. Physical combat is what it excels in, and that is naturally what the PCs should try to work around, not indulge. At higher lvs, PCs pretty much do possess the capabilities to overcome virtually any sort of challenge, or at least the resources to readily procure those means. By comparison, your scenario seems to suggest that the PCs are somehow being run by morons. They spot the tarrasque, the 1st thing they should be doing is to immediately fly out of reach, then plan their attack strategy. A more typical combat scenario would go somewhere along this line... Round1: Tarrasque charges to activate frightful presence. PCs laugh due to the heroes' feast they had for breakfast. Attacks fighter (assuming the fighter was dumb enough to remain within reach), deals decent damage, tries to grapple. Fighter points out the freedom of movement spell the cleric had cast on him prior to combat. DM goes :bored: Wizard casts limited wish on the tarrasque to lower its will save, quickened dim-door away (if not already far away), hovers in mid air out of reach thanks to his fly spell. Rogue tumbles away to safety. The bugger only has a reach of 20ft, so if the fighter could find some way to get 30 ft reach, he can fly over the tarrasque, hover in place and attack with impunity. Barring the need to cast 9th lv spells to actually take it down permanently (my biggest peeve, since this actually results in a net xp deficit for the party mage, unless you allow him to gate in a solar for his wish SLA), a lv17 party should be able to take it down readily enough, simply by taking advantage of its aforementioned shortcomings. Simply put - try not to engage it in melee whenever possible. I was not aware that I was somehow implying that the PCs consisted of those aforementioned builds either.:rolleyes: When did I mention flesh to stone? I was referring to a warlock, which can fly all day long due to fell flight. Just spam its SLAs, and sheer probability indicates that the tarrasque eventually has to fail its sr, and roll a natural 1 on its relevant saves. It is all a matter of time. This has nothing to do with dirty tricks. You get xp for overcoming an encounter. How you do it is irrelevant. It is not stipulated that you must beat it down in a 1-on-1 matchup. A gated solar pelting it with slaying arrows is fair game as well. The tarrasque is simply quite poorly conceived, because it fails to fully take into account the vast resources PCs will have at that lv. It is little more than a big, dumb bruiser, and that is really one of the easier foes to outsmart, simply because they are so linear and predictable to run. Just my 2 cents. eldritch blast -- a magical ray that deals increasing damage as he attains levels in the class. Carapace (Ex) The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance. does this apply i don't have complete mage
runestar 06-07-07, 06:12 AM	I thought the warlock's baleful polymorph invocation was simply an invocation you use off the fly and not an essence which you modify your EB with?:confused:
Ace_of_time 06-07-07, 09:32 AM	If your going to attack from the air or melee why not just use greater invisibility. You can't just float above him and keep casting spells without buffing yourself first. In a mad rage Big T could pick up anything from a tree to a cow and throw att you and not miss. Let just hope your DM doesn't see this problem and add Half fiend to him so he'll get fly. Then what?
runestar 06-07-07, 09:59 AM	Let just hope your DM doesn't see this problem and add Half fiend to him so he'll get fly. Then what? Well then, I am glad that the tarrasque is not a legit target for the half-fiend template since it only has an int score of 3, as opposed to to the half fiend template's requirement of int4 or higher then...:P You will need to tack on a class lv or use the elite stat array, making it cr24. By definition, a cr24 foe is supposed to give a lv20 party fits. Nor do I see an epic lv party having a hard time against it. ;)
Selgard 06-07-07, 10:12 AM	NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING is worth it's CR if you play your characters as though they have the MM in their pocket as a reference tool. saying that it's not worth it's CR because you can read the rulebook and figure out it's weaknesses is like saying a troll isn't worth the CR because you already know it's weakness is fire. the GAME just doesn't work that way. the Typical Mr T encounter series would be: PC's attack. PC's run away. PC's research. Pc's attack. Pc's run away. Pc's research. when they FINALLY found -some- method of takin the ole man down, he'd come back fully to life within 24 hours thanks go good ole Regeneration and show the PC's who is boss. Saying that the creature is weak or faulty because you can look at the books and figure out some goofy way to defeat it is using a metagaming, faulty logic. Anything can be defeated Easily if you have the book in front of you showin you how to do it. It's also called: Cheating. Yes, Cheating. Your Characters Do Not Know What You Know.
runestar 06-07-07, 10:39 AM	I am not sure as to just how reasonable an assumption that is supposed to be. Against beginners who lack access to the MM, perhaps. But I own the MM. Why shouldn't I be allowed to read it? Anyone with access to the internet can easily locate and print out the tarrasque's stats to review. And whenever I go to the loo, I take the 5-10 minutes while I am doing my business to revise my knowledge of the monsters inside. I can safely claim that I am fairly familiar with most of the entries inside, barring some of the more obscure entries like the aboleth which do not really interest me. What then do you expect me to do? Cast fireballs at the tarrasque despite knowing full well that it is immune to fire? Ask the fighter to rush it despite knowing full well that he will be slaughtered? :rolleyes:
Ace_of_time 06-07-07, 11:08 AM	Well then, I am glad that the tarrasque is not a legit target for the half-fiend template since it only has an int score of 3, as opposed to to the half fiend template's requirement of int4 or higher then...:P You will need to tack on a class lv or use the elite stat array, making it cr24. By definition, a cr24 foe is supposed to give a lv20 party fits. Nor do I see an epic lv party having a hard time against it. ;) The DM could take one point from leveling up off another ability and put on int.
Ace_of_time 06-07-07, 11:16 AM	NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING is worth it's CR if you play your characters as though they have the MM in their pocket as a reference tool. saying that it's not worth it's CR because you can read the rulebook and figure out it's weaknesses is like saying a troll isn't worth the CR because you already know it's weakness is fire. the GAME just doesn't work that way. the Typical Mr T encounter series would be: PC's attack. PC's run away. PC's research. Pc's attack. Pc's run away. Pc's research. when they FINALLY found -some- method of takin the ole man down, he'd come back fully to life within 24 hours thanks go good ole Regeneration and show the PC's who is boss. Saying that the creature is weak or faulty because you can look at the books and figure out some goofy way to defeat it is using a metagaming, faulty logic. Anything can be defeated Easily if you have the book in front of you showin you how to do it. It's also called: Cheating. Yes, Cheating. Your Characters Do Not Know What You Know. You have to distract him in order to get away. Not including summons spells you would have to leave someone behind to die to get away and hope he doesn't just grab and swallow whole. He has +7 init so what if he goes first move up grabs the wizard and swallows him first round.
northern_bear 06-07-07, 11:24 AM	NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING is worth it's CR if you play your characters as though they have the MM in their pocket as a reference tool. Saying that the creature is weak or faulty because you can look at the books and figure out some goofy way to defeat it is using a metagaming, faulty logic. Anything can be defeated Easily if you have the book in front of you showin you how to do it. First, it is not necessarily metagaming. Character's can have ranks in knowledge, and are thus entitled to know things. What they don't know, presuably they could go to the library to research. Or they could talk to a sage. Or they could cast divination spells. If you come around the corner in a dungeon and there's a Tarrasque sitting there, then you probably won't know how to fight it, and you'll probably die. But if you know the fight is coming, and you prepare, then it's not unbelievable that the characters would know some stuff about their opponent. After all, couldn't a character do some research to find out what sort of DR a fiend has? Also, many of the abilities will quickly be discerned. What are the Tarrasque's abilities? 1) It is strong. Well look at the the damn thing. It just knocked over a castle. Of course it's strong. 2) Fighting it in melee combat is probably a bad idea. (Refer to #1). 3) It has a high AC. This should be apparent from all the arrows that are just bouncing off it. 4) It has DR. "I know I must have hit it with that shot, but it seems not to be affected, it must be resistant to my weapons." 5) It regenerates. "Hey look, that large wound on its side is healing itself." 6) It has high SR. Wizard: "Hmm my spells appear not to be working. The creature must some how be resistant to spells." The only thing about the Tarrasque that isn't going to be imediately obvious after the first few rounds of combat, are the wish thing. But that's where a little library research comes in.
northern_bear 06-07-07, 11:27 AM	NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING is worth it's CR if you play your characters as though they have the MM in their pocket as a reference tool. Saying that the creature is weak or faulty because you can look at the books and figure out some goofy way to defeat it is using a metagaming, faulty logic. Anything can be defeated Easily if you have the book in front of you showin you how to do it. Second, and more to the point, It is true that any monster is easier to face if you know what you're up against. But most monsters are just much easier to kill. The tarrasque is much, much, MUCH, easier to kill. Knowing all the spells and special abilities of a balor may help a bit, but you can't counter all of them. Knowing that the dragon can cast spells as a 15th level sorceror is only moderately helpful. But if you know the Tarrasque's abilities, it becomes a complete push over. You can kill it fairly easily, with absolutely zero risk.
northern_bear 06-07-07, 11:34 AM	You have to distract him in order to get away. Not including summons spells you would have to leave someone behind to die to get away and hope he doesn't just grab and swallow whole. The thing moves at 30 feet. A group of characters that can't escape a creature moving at 30 feet should have died before they hit 4th level. He has +7 init so what if he goes first move up grabs the wizard and swallows him first round. The thing's as big as a mountain. How is it that the PCs have gotten to within 60 feet of it before needing to role initiative? What, they didn't notive the 100 foot tall monster tearing up trees until they happened to be 60 feet away?
El_Machinae 06-07-07, 11:41 AM	Interesting points, but ultimately they're all blatant metagaming. Given enough out-of-character knowledge and unrestricted access to every sourcebook published to date, it's entirely too easy to build characters optimized to any given task and reduce what should have been a memorable climax to a long campaign to nothing more than an exercise in number crunching. True: I can't see gleaning much about Big T based off of knowledge checks!
Ace_of_time 06-07-07, 11:46 AM	The thing moves at 30 feet. A group of characters that can't escape a creature moving at 30 feet should have died before they hit 4th level. The thing's as big as a mountain. How is it that the PCs have gotten to within 60 feet of it before needing to role initiative? What, they didn't notive the 100 foot tall monster tearing up trees until they happened to be 60 feet away? He could rush first round for 150'. Dould move gives him 300'.
Ace_of_time 06-07-07, 11:48 AM	Lets say you are both running. You 120' per round for 10 round = 1200' in one minute. Big T has a run of 80' per round for 9 rounds + 600' for number ten =1320' for ten rounds. How is that getting away?:confused: This is with both of you running. People who think the beast can't catch them are always the ones who die by running stright into the thing in movies. That kind of thinking will get you and you party killed. buffing spells should be first thing you do. AKA haste, Blink and the like.
mtbOgre 06-07-07, 03:16 PM	I am not sure as to just how reasonable an assumption that is supposed to be. Against beginners who lack access to the MM, perhaps. Your characters have access to the Monster Manual? What does that give them a Knowledge (monsters) of +20? You are playing a role, and part of that role is that your character does not know everything you know. But I own the MM. Why shouldn't I be allowed to read it? Anyone with access to the internet can easily locate and print out the tarrasque's stats to review. And whenever I go to the loo, I take the 5-10 minutes while I am doing my business to revise my knowledge of the monsters inside. I can safely claim that I am fairly familiar with most of the entries inside, barring some of the more obscure entries like the aboleth which do not really interest me. What then do you expect me to do? Cast fireballs at the tarrasque despite knowing full well that it is immune to fire? Ask the fighter to rush it despite knowing full well that he will be slaughtered? :rolleyes: There is a fine line. Monsters are much more challenging and fun for players if there is a bit of mystery. The first time my players encountered a troll it was a huge challenge to them because it took them some time to figure out that they had to use fire to destroy it. Had they been book experts it would have just been yet another hack and slash. Sure it's impossible to simulate ignorance but I also enjoy the game a bit more when there is some mystery. So if my players have all the books memorized then they are destined to encounter stuff that doesn't work like the books, maybe next time it's fire trolls that only take take lethal damage from cold attacks or can be destroy by immersion. Don't get me wrong, I don't mix things up just to mix them up (for example if the players met up with a troll later in the campaign it would be a troll unless it was clearly different), but players should not get huge benefits from meta-gaming. Be certain that if my players know the book inside out and encounter the Tarrasque they will most certainly get a little surprise. Maybe a little size reduction and a colossal pounce attack. So what happens when you cast a baleful polymorph from the inside of a Tarrasque?
Ace_of_time 06-07-07, 05:02 PM	ha ha ha!
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-08-07, 03:12 AM	... At higher lvs, PCs pretty much do possess the capabilities to overcome virtually any sort of challenge, or at least the resources to readily procure those means. ... 5. Again, the Big T is only 25% of a level 20 party's battles for the day. That means its "just another battle" to them and not somethign special. A Big T also makes a poor BBEG for a party of 17~18's since BBEGs have minions and traps and tend prepeared for the party. You also tend fight BBEGs as the last fight of the day after said minions wear them down some. ... I was not aware that I was somehow implying that the PCs consisted of those aforementioned builds either.:rolleyes: I was not aware I was even talking about you. When did I mention flesh to stone? I was referring to a warlock, which can fly all day long due to fell flight. Just spam its SLAs, and sheer probability indicates that the tarrasque eventually has to fail its sr, and roll a natural 1 on its relevant saves. It is all a matter of time.I'm still not talking about you. The world goes around the sun last time I checked... Just my 2 cents. Just Wikipedia's 2 cents. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming_%28role-playing_games%29) "Traditionally, metagaming is generally frowned upon in role-playing communities, as it upsets the suspension of disbelief and affects game balance." *** The thing moves at 30 feet. A group of characters that can't escape a creature moving at 30 feet should have died before they hit 4th level. An all out run for a race with a 30 foot land speed and boots of striding on springing is faster than a Big T's dash sure, but once again planning on always running form the thing is picking that 10,000 x 10,000 foot flat land arena. Your also assuming the Big T would keep charging the party. Too much is assumed in favor of the PCs and too much metagaming knowledge is used. Then to top all that off, people are posting in the manner that they think a Big T is extremely weak compared to a 20th level party and think it means something. If it only melees and you stay out of its range using ranged attacks than “half as difficulty” is not a far-fetched idea. As page 39 of the DMG points out, the Big T’s encounter level would only be 18. Which means a 20th level party with ranged attacks and an escape route should battle two of these at once, four times a day. In fact, the party has to kill 26 of these things to level up to 21. A group of high-level characters that can't beat a Big T should have died before they hit 4th level. Here are some facts to go with all these assumptions. Apes have 2 int and can use tools. A giant ant in D&D has – for int and in real ants can use battle tactics players should take notes from. A lion has 2 int and can lay and wait to ambush its pray. A wolf has 2 int and is praised for its cunning. A rat has 2 int, and it can learn from trial and error, it also learns tricks faster than a dog. A raven has 2 int but is smart enough to throw nuts in traffic to break them open. What could a unique monster that has theoretically been around for the last 2,000 years do with 2 int?
Freefall 06-08-07, 05:19 AM	The Tarrasque has 3 Int. It is actually much smarter than a lot of people realize, including the ones who have memorized all of its other stats and abilities. And I agree that there is too much metagaming from the guys who say it is a pushover. Thoroughly reading its MM entry and coming up with plans to exploit its few actual weaknesses is kind of like memorizing the Tomb of Horrors module before your DM runs you through it, and then saying it's "too easy." And as for spaming spells until the Tarrasque fails a save, just how many times is your wizard going to cast the same spell on this thing before he starts to wonder if it is just immune? I mean, the thing is clearly resistant to spells in general, and it has a pretty extraordinary defense mechanism in the Carapace (not to mention the regeneration that is impossible to overcome, assuming they actually do noticeable damage to it), and between both SR and its high saves, the odds of a spell getting through will be a lot less than 5%. That's a long time for your caster to just sit around, casting the same spell over and over; in fact, it will probably take several days worth of spell slots. In the meantime this thing is destroying the country and everyone else is probably hoping you'll try using a spell that could actually be helpful against it now instead of one that, even if the thing isn't immune, might not get through its defenses until next week when it's already eaten everybody and wandered off to nap for the next few months.
Bedlamtom 06-08-07, 01:50 PM	Begin Random Tarrasquey Comment. Back in the old Spell Jammer days in one of the suppliments was a planet populated by tarrasques. I crashed my players there and they excreted high density rectangular building materials until they found a way off planet. It was a fun time for all! End random comment
Flintlockhandmedown 06-09-07, 06:10 PM	Yes, spamming spells is metagaming at its finest. There is no other explanation for a wizard floating there casting finger of death over and over and over, telling the people getting eaten below him "No dudes, I'm definitely sure it'll work this time. No dudes, it's alright."
Alpha_Moose 06-09-07, 06:16 PM	Yes, spamming spells is metagaming at its finest. There is no other explanation for a wizard floating there casting finger of death over and over and over, telling the people getting eaten below him "No dudes, I'm definitely sure it'll work this time. No dudes, it's alright." Yes, of course. That makes machines guns total metagaming. I mean, if you don't hit once what makes you think you'll hit later on? Also what makes you think that a Wizard, with 23 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and a 30 Int not able to know something about a legendary beast? One that has only a 3 Int.
Freefall 06-09-07, 06:54 PM	Yes, of course. That makes machines guns total metagaming. I mean, if you don't hit once what makes you think you'll hit later on? Machine guns can fire more than 10 bullets a day and don't take 8 hours to reload. And what do machine guns have to do with D&D anyway? Also what makes you think that a Wizard, with 23 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and a 30 Int not able to know something about a legendary beast? One that has only a 3 Int. Well, that would take a 20th level wizard. The argument is that the Tarrasque can be beaten fairly easily with significantly lower level PCs. I also think that knowledge checks for unique creatures are based on hit dice rather than intelligence, and the Tarrasque has a lot of hit dice. And it isn't really knowing basic things that people are arguing against, but knowing that the thing is immune to ability drain but not ability damage, for example.
Alpha_Moose 06-09-07, 07:08 PM	Machine guns can fire more than 10 bullets a day and don't take 8 hours to reload. And what do machine guns have to do with D&D anyway? There are wands, or staffs. Well, that would take a 20th level wizard. The argument is that the Tarrasque can be beaten fairly easily with significantly lower level PCs. Granted. A group of prepared lower level characters can easily defeat it. A group of unprepared characters can easily escape from it. I also think that knowledge checks for unique creatures are based on hit dice rather than intelligence, and the Tarrasque has a lot of hit dice. And it isn't really knowing basic things that people are arguing against, but knowing that the thing is immune to ability drain but not ability damage, for example. I thought it was based on CR. I was wrong on that. Anyways, the best way to say whether it deserves its rating is to compare it to other creatures of its CR. Compare it to a Balor or Pit Fiend. By comparison it's very weak. The Tarrasque has a lot of immunities, but its pretty stupid, can't fly, and has no attacks other than 'hit hard'. It's the same reason why martial characters are considered weak at high levels compared to spellcasters.
bobothechimp 06-09-07, 07:26 PM	Any monster can be simple to beat, if you 1.) Know it exists, 2.) Know all of it's abilities, and 3.) Have time to prepare for it. 1.) Not too difficult, the Tarrasque is quite legendary. 2.) Tough, DC 58 for the first piece of information, 5 more for every extra piece. None other than the complete genius of an ancient, epic dragon whose hoard includes an enormous kingdom's entire library would be able to know the Tarrasque's traits. 3.) If you're going Tarrasque hunting, this is not a problem. You can run into Big T in the middle of on open plain, and have all your spells specifically to be used against it prepared, it's not going to be tough. If you are searching for an artifact or somesuch, and enter an enormous cave with a roof just about the height of the Tarrasque, and in the Tarrasque's first round, he hurls a boulder at the entrance, or smashes into the wall, blocking off the only exit, you might be in a bit of trouble.
Flintlockhandmedown 06-09-07, 07:27 PM	Yes, of course. That makes machines guns total metagaming. I mean, if you don't hit once what makes you think you'll hit later on? Also what makes you think that a Wizard, with 23 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and a 30 Int not able to know something about a legendary beast? One that has only a 3 Int. +33 on a knowledge check only allows a maximum of 53. To know anything about the Tarrasque you'd need a check of 58. That means this dude wouldn't even know about a Tarrasque, much less know that it's not immune to a certain spell. This guy is also a 20th level wizard which is immaterial to the argument at hand, that lower levels could defeat a Tarrasque. Also, machineguns? Seriously? The mentality behind a soldier firing a machine gun at a guy behind a rock and a wizard floating in the air casting a certain spell over and over at an insanely powerful beast he's never heard of and has no idea the weaknesses of that is eating his teammates is so different it's incredible. That was in fact one of the worst analogies I've ever heard. Sorry.
Alpha_Moose 06-09-07, 07:44 PM	<snipped knowledge stuff> Yes, I thought knowledge checks were based off of CR. I was wrong. Also, machineguns? Seriously? The mentality behind a soldier firing a machine gun at a guy behind a rock and a wizard floating in the air casting a certain spell over and over at an insanely powerful beast he's never heard of and has no idea the weaknesses of that is eating his teammates is so different it's incredible. That was in fact one of the worst analogies I've ever heard. Sorry. It's not that incredibly off. A soldier shooting at a tank and a Wizard using a staff against a Tarrasque isn't that different. The Wizard shoots, realizes that the spell bounces off. He thinks "This creature has some kinda resistance to spells, like a dragon." He then has two options, use the same spell to see if it goes though the resistance, or use something that it can't resist against. The soldier shoots, realized that the bullets bounce off the tank. He thinks "This tank's armor is strong against the gun I'm using." He then has two options, keep firing and try to hit a weaker spot, or use something that can go though the armor. Plus I think that the original spamming mention was on a Warlock, who could go on forever.
Flintlockhandmedown 06-09-07, 07:58 PM	There are wands, or staffs. The only 4th level or lower spell that is save or die is Phantasmal Killer, which is a double save. The only staff that has save or die is the Necromancy staff which only has 3 uses of Circle of Death and costs 65,000 gp.
Flintlockhandmedown 06-09-07, 08:04 PM	Yes, I thought knowledge checks were based off of CR. I was wrong. It's not that incredibly off. A soldier shooting at a tank and a Wizard using a staff against a Tarrasque isn't that different. The Wizard shoots, realizes that the spell bounces off. He thinks "This creature has some kinda resistance to spells, like a dragon." He then has two options, use the same spell to see if it goes though the resistance, or use something that it can't resist against. The soldier shoots, realized that the bullets bounce off the tank. He thinks "This tank's armor is strong against the gun I'm using." He then has two options, keep firing and try to hit a weaker spot, or use something that can go though the armor. Plus I think that the original spamming mention was on a Warlock, who could go on forever. Yeah, but that would be a stupid soldier shooting a tank in the first place :P As for Warlocks, if you mean using Eldritch Blast against it, it's immune to rays.
Alpha_Moose 06-09-07, 08:59 PM	The only 4th level or lower spell that is save or die is Phantasmal Killer, which is a double save. The only staff that has save or die is the Necromancy staff which only has 3 uses of Circle of Death and costs 65,000 gp. Actually, for either Warlock or Wizard, using Baleful Polymorph is the best. A staff of Transmutation has that plus Disintegrate. Yeah, but that would be a stupid soldier shooting a tank in the first place :P It would really depend on what kind of tank and what they were shooting it with. A .50 cal could break though weaker tank armor. If you have armor piercing/explosive rounds you can go though armor too. That's comparable to a Wizard upping their CL.
northern_bear 06-10-07, 09:26 AM	The only 4th level or lower spell that is save or die is Phantasmal Killer, which is a double save. The only staff that has save or die is the Necromancy staff which only has 3 uses of Circle of Death and costs 65,000 gp. You don't want to use save or die spells, since they can't actually kill the Tarrasque. You want to use save-or-be-rendered-helpless-for-a-long-period-of-time-without-thechnically-dying spells. At second level, you can use blindness. At fourth level you want charm monster, or bestow curse (drop int to 1). At fifth level you want balefull polymorph, feeblemind, magic jar, or waves of fatigue. At sixth level you get flesh to stone. No need to go any higher than that. It shouldn't be too expensive to get wands, staffs, or scrolls with the relevant spells. Also, a new Rod of absorption costs 50,000 gp new. If it has already absorbed as much as it can, then I would argue that half of it's powers have been used up, so it should only cost 25,000 gp. For 25,000 gp a wizard could get 50 levels of personal spell casting.
northern_bear 06-10-07, 10:11 AM	Level 9 wizard. Inteligence: 26 Feats: Spell focus & greater spell focus (enchantment), Spell penetration, Greater spell penetration, that thing that lets you take 10 on caster level checks. Non core spell known: That thing which gives you a +10 bonus on level checks to beat spell resistance. Equipment: Headband of intelect +6, half a dozen scrolls of feeblemind, a wand of blindness & deafnesss. Pre combat buffing: Improved Invisibility, Flight, Imunity to fear. Round one: Cast that thing which gives you a +10 bonus on caster level checks. The wizard can now beat the Tarrasque's spell resistance with 100% certainty. Round two: Waves of Exhaustion. No save! Tarrasque can no longer run or charge. Round three & up: Blast away with Feblemind spells until one of them succeeds. Save DC is 25. Tarrasque will fail if he rolls a 4 or lower, so it should only take a few rounds for him to fail. Tarrasque now has int 1. No more picking things up & throwing them, or using other "clever" tactics that it could use back when it was a much smarter inteligence 3. Later rounds: Blast away with blindness & deafness spells until the Tarrasque rolls a one on his save, and gets blinded & deafened. The Tarrasque is now Blind, Deaf, too tired to run or charge, and too stupid to do more than rolll around on the ground drooling on itself, or walking into walls. All effects are permanent. The Tarrasque should now pose absolutely no threat to anyone. Go home, rest up for a few days, come back when you have some flesh to stone or baleful polymorph spells available to finish the thing off for good. Now before everyone starts yelling about how min-maxed this character is, or what a horible metagamer I am, let me address those issue. The character is somewhat maxed out for killing big nasties. But other than an abnormally high number of scrolls, does anything about this character seem unreasonable. Are the feats he has, or the spells he knows, really all that unusual for a wizard. He seems like a pretty common, run of the mill enchanter type wizard to me. Second, yes, he did know exactly which spells to use against the Tarrasque. So maybe I'm metagaming. Then again, maybe the character actually did a bit of research and came up with a strategy that he thought would be likely to succeed. This strategy is effective because the tarrasque is stupid, has spell resistance, has good saving throws, has regeneration, and lots of hit points. These seem like things that could reasonably be determined with a bit of research. And if the character were to actually see the creature in combat, or talk to someone who had, then the character would probably know these things right away. If the character is walking down the road, meets a tarrasque, and imediately fires off this strategy, then yes. That would be metagaming. But if the character actually took a bit of time to figure out what he was fighting, then this is a reasonable in game strategy for him to come up with, and is not necessarily metagaming. Finally, even if you think the character is a bit maxed out, and he is metagaming a bit, that doesn't alter the fact that I've created a 9th level character with a more or less foolproof aproach to eliminate a CR 20 monster. That still tells me that CR 20 is too high for the Tarrasque. Think about a 9th level character going up against some other CR 20 creatures all by himself. I'm sure if you wanted too, it would be possible to create a 9th level character that could easily defeat a Balor, Pit Fiend, or CR 20 dragon. But I'm fairly certain that it would be a lot less reliable than what I've described here. And I'm also pretty certain it would take much more extensive character min/maxing than what I've done, and it would take a lot more metagaming.
runestar 06-10-07, 10:26 AM	I'm sure if you wanted too, it would be possible to create a 9th level character that could easily defeat a Balor, Pit Fiend, or CR 20 dragon. In theory, a lv1 commoner could do it, assuming he had access to enough gear. Namely, the main culprits are dust of sneezing+choking, and candle of invocation....:P Which defeats the purpose of a meaningful discussion anyways.
Karak_Nechot 06-10-07, 01:14 PM	Look, northern_bear, all that I have seen you show in this ENTIRE thread is that a party that knows everything about this creature can beat it at relatively low levels. That's nothing special. The fact remains that the CR system is based off a random encounter scenario more than anything else. Are you seriously going to tell me that a party of less than 16th level is going to be able to easily kill this thing without any perparation or planning beforehand? I can't image it. Yes, they can escape, yes, they can potentially avert it, but actually defeat it? Not unless there is something very unusual happening. Is the Tarrasque a perfect creature for a CR 20? No, I don't think so. It's got a few holes in its defenses and it is only good in melee, just like you pointed out. But is it at least close? I definitely see it as up there. Maybe it's really only a CR 18-19 as written, or just needs a small bit of tweaking in feats and a few abilities to make it a CR 20, but, overall, I can't see it as something that lower level parties can routinely drop, except with exceptional preparation beforehand. Your 9th level wizard there is a perfect example of that. You know exactly what you're up against, plan specifically for it, and use up ALL of your resources for just one single encounter. That is not evidence that the tarrasque is weak, that is evidence that you know how to plan well when you know exactly what you are about to face. Big freakin' deal. Here's what you need to do to show the tarrasque is weak. Take TWO tarrasques and have them fight a level 22 party of a relatively standard build and equipment. Totally kick-in-the-door encounter, no preparation on either side, and just have the tarrasques drop in from the sky within charging distance. If it takes up about 20% of the party's resouces to defeat them, then the CR is spot on. If it takes more, then the thing is too low in CR. If it takes less, THEN you can make the claim that the tarrasque is too weak. Until you do that, frankly, all you're doing is showing how metagame and preparation = teh pwn. Which, in D&D terms, is about as basic as 2+2=4.
northern_bear 06-10-07, 01:59 PM	Look, northern_bear, all that I have seen you show in this ENTIRE thread is that a party that knows everything about this creature can beat it at relatively low levels. That's nothing special. Actually, I'd say that is pretty special. Can a character that knows everything a CR 20 dragon beat one at relatively low levels? I doubt it. Not without a lot more metagaming, preperation, and cheese then what I've shown here. The fact remains that the CR system is based off a random encounter scenario more than anything else. It is? Who says, where is that written? Are you seriously going to tell me that a party of less than 16th level is going to be able to easily kill this thing without any perparation or planning beforehand? I can't image it. Neither can I. And no, I'm not going to seriously tell you that. Did you actually read my post, or did you simply ignore everything I wrote and simply jump directly to the part where you get to assume I'm an idiot. If you didn't read it, then scroll back up there and take a look. As a matter of fact, I specifically said that the Tarrasque is super tough if you just happen to randomly encounter it. But who randomly encounters a tarrasque? Walking through the dungeon, coming around the corner, and happening accross a Tarrasque, is about as likely as coming around the corner and meeting the great red wyrm dragon. Or randomly being attacked by the balor when you walk into the bar. And sure, the Tarrasque is tough when you aren't prepared for it. But so is any thing. Meeting a balor or dragon when you are not expecting it, is going to be a LOT more dangerous to the party than meeting a Tarrasque when you aren't expecting it. And a lot harder to kill. But honestly, how many PCs ever meet anything tough when unprepared for it. In most of the games I've ever played in the whole "we go down to the dungeon and kill whatever we find there" scenario doesn't see much action past 3rd level. Most of the games I've been involved in have revolved around quests and missions, in which the PCs had at least an idea of what they were up against, or at least the opportunity to ask around. "You're walking down the street. Bamb! A red dragon attacks without warning. Roll initiative." should not usually happen in most games. (And if it did, it's more likely to be "Bamb, you take 200 points of fire damage in the surprise round, save for half. You're dead? Too bad." that's a really great game.) Until you do that, frankly, all you're doing is showing how metagame and preparation = teh pwn. Which, in D&D terms, is about as basic as 2+2=4. Again, maybe try reading my post. I have at least made the effort to explain why what I've described isn't metagaming. If you want to argue with me, then come up with a good reason why it is metagaming, rather than simply coming back with "yes it is." I'll agree that I've shown that preperation can be useful. But I've tried to claim that it is more useful against a tarrasque then against other creatures. Disagree? Then tell me why. As for metagaming, if you think preparing for a fight before hand is metagaming, then yes, I'm a metagamer. Otherwise, explain which feats, spells, tactics, etc I've used that you would consider to be unusual feats, spells, and tacticts for an inteligent wizard to employ.
Ace_of_time 06-10-07, 06:43 PM	I think the point people are trying to make is that even with preparation you still should be able to find out everything he can do. I mean the thing sleeps for hundreds of years and how many people survive his attack. Some knowledge is bound to get lost.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-10-07, 06:53 PM	Can a character that knows everything a CR 20 dragon beat one at relatively low levels? I doubt it. Not without a lot more metagaming, preperation, and cheese then what I've shown here. Dragon CRs are based on the assumption that you do know all their weaknesses. They're a special case.
Ace_of_time 06-10-07, 07:03 PM	:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: All CRs are based on what level you be more likely able to kill it and anything lower then that would be risky.
dman11235 06-12-07, 12:34 AM	:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: All CRs are based on what level you be more likely able to kill it and anything lower then that would be risky. Actually, as stated earlier, most CR's are based on a random encounter senario by a party of one fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric with 25 point buy. And 20% of resources used up. What Karak_Nechot suggested is a good way to determine wether or not Mr. T deserves his CR. I think it does.
northern_bear 06-12-07, 05:30 AM	Actually, as stated earlier, most CR's are based on a random encounter senario by a party of one fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric with 25 point buy. And 20% of resources used up. . . Again, where is this written? Note that I'm not denying it. I just can't find this reference. I'm familiar with the 4 party (fighter, rogue, wizard, & cleric) part, and the 20% of resources part. But I can't find the "random encounter" part.
mtbOgre 06-12-07, 02:47 PM	Level 9 wizard. Inteligence: 26 Ok... first there is not a single 9th level wizard in any campaign I've run or been in with a 26 INT so it's very likely we are on different pages here anyways. Regardless, you can have your "Not Meta-Gamed" 9th level wizard. It must be a common build since know exactly which feats and spells are required to create it :rolleyes: Pre combat buffing: Improved Invisibility, Flight, Imunity to fear. Round one: Cast that thing which gives you a +10 bonus on caster level checks. The wizard can now beat the Tarrasque's spell resistance with 100% certainty. Round two: Waves of Exhaustion. No save! Tarrasque can no longer run or charge. Here is a question, the spell says "Waves of negative energy render all living creatures in the spell’s area fatigued". Since you will merely be touching the edge of the Tarrasque with the spell would he really be "in the spells area"? "The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons." You can't even fit a Tarraque into a 30' cone, assuming you cast it from the furthest distance possible it would most likely just graze the Tarrasque's "armorlike carapace". Tough call for a DM. Perhaps your DM is generous and gives it to you. Perhaps he also misreads the Tarrasque statistics as you did and misses this part "The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones". Well maybe when they say "ALL" they don't mean "ALL" maybe they just mean "MOST" cones you did notice Waves of Fatigue is a cone right? Perhaps through a couple generous calls from the DM the Tarrasque is fatigued. Let's think about this 30' cone for a second... what else happens to be 30'... Oh that's right, the Tarrasque has a reach of 30'! Plus Scent, Alertness, +17 listen, and Blind Fighting. So on your move action you fly up on your standard action you cast Waves of Fatigue. Then... you get eaten. Since you are in his reach the Tarrasque can do a full attack on you even though he is fatigued. Will a typical 9th level wizard last a single round in combat without getting either grabbed or swallowed whole? Since your DM is so much more generous than I would be then perhaps you could. He missed the whole cone thing, maybe he'll miss the Blind Sight, Listen, and Scent abiliites also? Maybe you meant to bring along 10 other spells which you can't recall the name of which will prevent this from happening? What are the rules for reading scrolls while in the stomach of a a Tarrasque? So perhaps your compatriots (who also happen to have the exact build required to overcome the Tarrasque's spell resistance) have the Feeblemind scrolls along with a rod of resurrection for you? Does this spell which you don't know the name of and I've never heard of so I can't comment on affect scrolls which you read? It seems to me that even with your perfect "not meta-gamed" character the chances of your wizard surviving to round 2 are pretty slim.
Ace_of_time 06-12-07, 06:39 PM	MM 3.5 page7 Challenge rating This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty. Assume a party of four fresh characters ( full hit points, fullspells, and Equipment appropriate to their levels). Given reasonable luck, the party should be able to win the encounter with some damage but no casualties. If there is some where else where it says ability scores used please post a link or quote. It also doesn't say anything about classes ether in ether MM or DMG page 49 just average level and 20% resources ( HP, spells, and so on) And I don't see how fat will help -2 str and dex isn't hurting him and he can still use rush for a speed of 150. And would still more than likely go first and eat the wizard.
northern_bear 06-13-07, 07:34 AM	Ok... first there is not a single 9th level wizard in any campaign I've run or been in with a 26 INT so it's very likely we are on different pages here anyways. Started play with an 18. Increased it to 19 at fourth level and 20 at 8th level. Uses magic items or spells to get to 26. Call it 22 or 24 if you like. All it changes is that it will take a few more tries before the Tarasque fails a save. Which he will eventually do anyway. Regardless, you can have your "Not Meta-Gamed" 9th level wizard. It must be a common build since know exactly which feats and spells are required to create it :rolleyes: I know you're trying to mock me with that "not meta-gamed" bit. I think a more appropriate phrase, if you want to mock what I've been saying would be "not-significantly meta-gamed", though that doesn't have a nice ring to is. And, as mentioned before, if you think this is metagaming, then explain why you don't agree with my argument. Here it is again for you: This wizards feats & spells available are not unusual. Spell focus? Spell penetration? Do you honestly believe that these are really rare feats, that no wizard would ever take unless they were incredibly min maxed? I've seen wizards with these feats before. And they work well together. Not just against the Tarrasque. These feats and spells are a great combination for a wizard to have, and would come in handy in a very wide variety of situations. So how is giving a wizard these useful feats meta gaming? And yes, the wizard was prepared to fight the tarrasque. But what's wrong with that? Do you DMs refuse to every allow your characters to use fire and acid against a troll? Can't they talk to people who have founght them, or go to a library and research them? Are players never entitled to know anything about any monster they face? OK, so Tarrasque's a are more rare than trolls, but that shouldn't stop a character from trying to find something out about them, and then coming up with a plan. I'm curious, which of the following features of the Tarrasque, do you feel it should be impossible for characters to discover via research, talking to people who have fought against it, or seing it in action themselves? -Big & Strong. -Regenerates. -Resistant to spells. -Unalbe to fly. Here is a question, the spell says "Waves of negative energy render all living creatures in the spell’s area fatigued". Since you will merely be touching the edge of the Tarrasque with the spell would he really be "in the spells area"? "The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons." You can't even fit a Tarraque into a 30' cone. If part of a creature is in the area of a spell, the creature is affected by the spell. At least that's always been the way I've played. If there is something in RAW that says otherwise, what is it? If it didn't work this way, dragons and many giants would be imune to arrea affect spells. And anything size larger or more would be imune to lightning bolts and other line effects. Perhaps your DM is generous and gives it to you. Perhaps he also misreads the Tarrasque statistics as you did and misses this part "The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones". Well maybe when they say "ALL" they don't mean "ALL" maybe they just mean "MOST" cones you did notice Waves of Fatigue is a cone right? Perhaps through a couple generous calls from the DM the Tarrasque is fatigued. Good point. You're right, I overlooked that. It is easily fixed. Let's think about this 30' cone for a second... what else happens to be 30'... Oh that's right, the Tarrasque has a reach of 30'! Plus Scent, Alertness, +17 listen, and Blind Fighting. So on your move action you fly up on your standard action you cast Waves of Fatigue. Then... you get eaten. Since you are in his reach the Tarrasque can do a full attack on you even though he is fatigued. Will a typical 9th level wizard last a single round in combat without getting either grabbed or swallowed whole? Since your DM is so much more generous than I would be then perhaps you could. He missed the whole cone thing, maybe he'll miss the Blind Sight, Listen, and Scent abiliites also? . . . It seems to me that even with your perfect "not meta-gamed" character the chances of your wizard surviving to round 2 are pretty slim. The wizard is invisible! From the SRD: "A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it." "Scent: . . . The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location." So the Tarrasque knows something invisible is near by, but he doesn't know where exactly. Nothing about the blindsight feat alters this. The Tarrasque can pick one random square within 30 feet of him, and try to attack it, hoping that is where the invisible creature is. And that's even assuming he is smart enough to consider an invisible creature a threat. And I don't see how fat will help -2 str and dex isn't hurting him and he can still use rush for a speed of 150. And would still more than likely go first and eat the wizard. If he can't run or charge, I would question whether he is able to "rush" either. Even if he can though, he's still slowed down by a lot. The point was simply to render him somewhat less dangerous to others, and give the wizard a bit more room to maneuver. And as noted, the Tarrasque is welcome to go first. But he can't eat the wizard because he doesn't know where it is.
mtbOgre 06-13-07, 04:46 PM	This wizards feats & spells available are not unusual. This is a common build and yet you don't even know the name of the key spell which makes it all work? And yes, the wizard was prepared to fight the tarrasque. But what's wrong with that? Do you DMs refuse to every allow your characters to use fire and acid against a troll? Can't they talk to people who have founght them, or go to a library and research them? Read this "Save My Game" article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20051014a) which was published on Wizards.com. My oldest daughter has been leafing through D&D books for most of her life, and her favorites have always been the monster books. So about 3 seconds after I started to describe the short reptilian creatures thought to have taken the book their characters sought, she blurted out, "Hey, I know, those are kobolds!" Now kobolds are pretty common creatures, so that outburst wouldn't have been so bad -- if she hadn't started to follow it up with an assessment of their relative threat level to the party. A few seconds into her disquisition on kobold capabilities, she evidently realized that she'd overstepped a boundary somewhere, because she clapped a hand over her mouth and looked at me with an abashed expression that clearly said, "Oops, I don't think I'm supposed to know that." Knowledge (local) checks were made to determine character knowledge about creatures of the humanoid type, and play resumed. Cuteness aside, this anecdote illustrates a simple fact: Even a ten-year-old just starting to play D&D understands on some level that one shouldn't use out-of-character knowledge in play. Ten-year-olds, however, have the good grace to be ashamed when they are caught out, and they generally try to avoid skirting the rules once they realize their error. The same cannot be said of many adults. The author's 10 y/o daughter figured this out but you can't seem to grasp it. I'm curious, which of the following features of the Tarrasque, do you feel it should be impossible for characters to discover via research, talking to people who have fought against it, or seing it in action themselves? -Big & Strong. -Regenerates. -Resistant to spells. -Unalbe to fly. Who has encountered it? How many people who attacked it survived to bring this information back to you? Are they sure it's "resistant to spells"? Not a single spell that's been cast on it's had any noticeable effect, it appears to be completely immune to magic. How do you even know it regenerates, the chances it's been significantly damaged are pretty slim and the number of people who survived to give reliable reports are exceedingly small. It's hard to build a large knowledge base when your research techs get eaten. Is there anything in the SRD that indicates a character knows why a spell fails? Was a it due to a successful save or was it anti-magic, maybe Spell Resistance? Then in addition to Spell Resistance the Tarrasque has the unique carapace that makes it completely invulnerable to a huge number of offensive spells, kind of complicates the experimentation process. Realistically how would your character even know to arm himself with the spell resistance crushing spell which has to date remained nameless yet is very commonly used in Wizard builds. If part of a creature is in the area of a spell, the creature is affected by the spell. At least that's always been the way I've played. If there is something in RAW that says otherwise, what is it? I am just setting this aside because it's irrelevant. The cone is reflected by the carapace regardless and there is a 30% chance the caster is fatigued Good point. You're right, I overlooked that. It is easily fixed.The wizard is invisible! It's curious, 1st edition had specific rules regarding high level creatures detecting invisibility, these rules seem to be absent from 3.5 which I find curious. There is a curious rule in about the Epic Uses of Listen though. If the character beats the DC by 20 or more, he or she can pinpoint the location of the invisible creature, though it still maintains total concealment from the character (50% miss chance). The PHB says "To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice." so spellcasting is clearly comparable with the sound of people talking or possibly louder. The DC for hearing people talking is 0. Further, since the scent and spot abilities are exceptional and will be used to complement her effort the Tarrasque gets a circumstantial bonus of +4 on her listen roll to pinpoint you. With a +17 listen and a +4 circumstantial bonus the Tarrasque is virtually guaranteed pinpoint you. Even without the circ. bonus you only have a 10% chance to not be pinpointed. With Blind-Fight and 6 attacks, 3 of which give him a near guaranteed grab or swallow whole. Each of those attacks has a 25% chance to miss due to concealment. Each of these attacks are at +52 so unless your wiz has an AC higher than 32 the miss chance once concealment is negated is 5% (attack roll of one). So... your "Not-Meta Gamed" character with "the spell you don't know the name of" and "Monster Manual Level Knowledge" (isn't that a godlike power?) now has a survival chance of 10% with a generous DM. And that's even assuming he is smart enough to consider an invisible creature a threat. Having literally hundreds or thousands of years experience squashing mages and fighters alike who thought they could kill the Tarrasque, she would certainly be familiar with invisible attackers and would likely rate them high on her threat list. Regardless even if you are not high on the threat list you are crunchy and probably taste good with ketchup. And in the unlikely event that you happened to kill the Tarrasque using this technique in my game you would not benefit much from it because I tent to agree with Jason Nelson-Brown on the subject of separating player knowledge from character knowledge. Players have great freedom to direct their character' actions, but limits do exist. Players must be able to draw the line between what they know (or guess) as they sit around the table and what their PCs do inside the game. If a player persists acting in a way that is unreasonable for his character -- even after being warned -- or pushes too far and too often into the gray areas of what his PC might know in-character, feel free to impose an XP penalty after the adventure. Since the player is not really playing the character, he should not receive the full normal award that would accrue for proper play. Oh... and which Tarrasque are you fighting? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20051109a
Ace_of_time 06-13-07, 07:58 PM	Started play with an 18. Increased it to 19 at fourth level and 20 at 8th level. Uses magic items or spells to get to 26. Call it 22 or 24 if you like. All it changes is that it will take a few more tries before the Tarasque fails a save. Which he will eventually do anyway. I know you're trying to mock me with that "not meta-gamed" bit. I think a more appropriate phrase, if you want to mock what I've been saying would be "not-significantly meta-gamed", though that doesn't have a nice ring to is. And, as mentioned before, if you think this is metagaming, then explain why you don't agree with my argument. Here it is again for you: This wizards feats & spells available are not unusual. Spell focus? Spell penetration? Do you honestly believe that these are really rare feats, that no wizard would ever take unless they were incredibly min maxed? I've seen wizards with these feats before. And they work well together. Not just against the Tarrasque. These feats and spells are a great combination for a wizard to have, and would come in handy in a very wide variety of situations. So how is giving a wizard these useful feats meta gaming? And yes, the wizard was prepared to fight the tarrasque. But what's wrong with that? Do you DMs refuse to every allow your characters to use fire and acid against a troll? Can't they talk to people who have founght them, or go to a library and research them? Are players never entitled to know anything about any monster they face? OK, so Tarrasque's a are more rare than trolls, but that shouldn't stop a character from trying to find something out about them, and then coming up with a plan. I'm curious, which of the following features of the Tarrasque, do you feel it should be impossible for characters to discover via research, talking to people who have fought against it, or seing it in action themselves? -Big & Strong. -Regenerates. -Resistant to spells. -Unalbe to fly. If part of a creature is in the area of a spell, the creature is affected by the spell. At least that's always been the way I've played. If there is something in RAW that says otherwise, what is it? If it didn't work this way, dragons and many giants would be imune to arrea affect spells. And anything size larger or more would be imune to lightning bolts and other line effects. Good point. You're right, I overlooked that. It is easily fixed. The wizard is invisible! From the SRD: "A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it." "Scent: . . . The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location." So the Tarrasque knows something invisible is near by, but he doesn't know where exactly. Nothing about the blindsight feat alters this. The Tarrasque can pick one random square within 30 feet of him, and try to attack it, hoping that is where the invisible creature is. And that's even assuming he is smart enough to consider an invisible creature a threat. If he can't run or charge, I would question whether he is able to "rush" either. Even if he can though, he's still slowed down by a lot. The point was simply to render him somewhat less dangerous to others, and give the wizard a bit more room to maneuver. And as noted, the Tarrasque is welcome to go first. But he can't eat the wizard because he doesn't know where it is. Rush just changes his/her speed. It's not a run or charge. If you want it less dangerous just get it neutered. If your invisiable he will know where your are by following 30% of your spells come back to you. 50% of his full attack will hit. And for the 100th time just because you can fly doesn't mean he can't attack you.
Alpha_Moose 06-13-07, 09:10 PM	This is a common build and yet you don't even know the name of the key spell which makes it all work? Assay Resistance (spell) gives a +10 to CL against SR. It lasts for 1 round/level, but can be cast as a swift action. Arcane Mastery (feat) lets you take 10 on CL checks. Both are in Complete Arcane. If a Wizard has access to them, there is no reason he wouldn't use them. Read this "Save My Game" article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20051014a) which was published on Wizards.com. The author's 10 y/o daughter figured this out but you can't seem to grasp it. When I first read that I knew that the article was stupid. How stupid do you honestly think a character would be? I've never fought against a polar bear, that doesn't mean that if I did I won't know what it is or won't know that using a gun against it would be better than using a knife against it. Granted with magic it's different but this is a 9th level Wizard, not your run of the mill commoners. Rush just changes his/her speed. It's not a run or charge. If you want it less dangerous just get it neutered. If your invisiable he will know where your are by following 30% of your spells come back to you. Not if the spell is a target. Only if the spell is a line, cone, etc. If the target is one creature (and a big one at that) you'll probably only use targeted spells. 50% of his full attack will hit. The Tarrasque must first successfully target him and even then the attack must hit. Admittedly not too hard for the Tarrasque, but it's still less than 50%. And for the 100th time just because you can fly doesn't mean he can't attack you. The Tarrasque has a 20ft reach. You can stay 20ft away pretty easily (even if he can jump). Illusions can completely screw with the Tarrasque as well. Make yourself invisible and have 5 illusionary you fly around too. Nothing that northern_bear mentioned is too metagaming or any different from what a Wizard would use against any other random huge creature that seems pretty strong.
Ace_of_time 06-13-07, 10:44 PM	Vertical reach is 100+. Which means he can grab you. And before you ask it's in the PHB under jump skill. The spell he was type about was a cone. He does not have to target you just know about where you are at. He can also throw things at you. Even invis a tree covers a lot of spaces.
Alpha_Moose 06-13-07, 11:00 PM	Vertical reach is 100+. Which means he can grab you. And before you ask it's in the PHB under jump skill. The spell he was type about was a cone. He does not have to target you just know about where you are at. He can also throw things at you. Even invis a tree covers a lot of spaces. In order to grab you he needs to initiate a grapple, which Freedom of Movement covers and is also not odd for a Wizard to use against a huge creature. Picking up a tree would take a standard action. That allows the Wizard to fly away and forces the Tarrasque to find him again. Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Wall, or Permanent Image can easily confuse a creature that is dumber than a five year old. Also, this is assuming that the Wizard is alone. If he has one ally the Tarrasque is completely toast.
runestar 06-13-07, 11:16 PM	Or just cast improved invis on yourself and hover out of range of its scent. It cannot attack you if it does not know where you are.:)
Vanigo 06-14-07, 01:26 AM	Vertical reach is 100+. Which means he can grab you. And before you ask it's in the PHB under jump skill. The spell he was type about was a cone. He does not have to target you just know about where you are at. He can also throw things at you. Even invis a tree covers a lot of spaces. That's "Stretch up and grab a ledge or something" reach, not melee reach. Big T's vertical melee reach is 20', just like its horizontal melee reach. Now, this is counted from the top of the Tarrasque's space, but even if we assume it's as tall as it is wide, that still only comes to 50'. Oh, and even if you think the reaches listed under the Jump skill are melee reach, the skill also states that the listed reaches are for bipeds, and that quadrupeds (like the Tarrasque) are treated as being one size smaller. (Yes, the Tarrasque is a quadruped, or at least a lot closer to that than being a biped. Table 8-4 on page 149 of the PHB lists reach for Colossal creatures as being 30 feet or more for tall creatures, and 20 feet or more for long creatures; ergo the Tarrasque is long.)
mtbOgre 06-14-07, 01:06 PM	When I first read that I knew that the article was stupid. How stupid do you honestly think a character would be? I've never fought against a polar bear, that doesn't mean that if I did I won't know what it is or won't know that using a gun against it would be better than using a knife against it. Granted with magic it's different but this is a 9th level Wizard, not your run of the mill commoners. Polar Bear != Tarrasque. Troll != Tarrasque. Tarrasque is a Unique creature and it's slept for the last 1000 years. There are a lot of people who have encountered bears in the wild and polar bears are VERY close to other bears. The Tarrasque is not that similar to dragons as some folks seem to imply. It really has no close relatives. No other creature has the spell reflecting carapace. nor does any other creature suggest that you need wish to affect it. No one has killed a Tarrasque. The survival rate of people who encounter the thing is close to zero. Not a single magic spell has affected it so far. So, where is this pool of information your character is going to dip into about the Tarrasque? Nothing that northern_bear mentioned is too metagaming or any different from what a Wizard would use against any other random huge creature that seems pretty strong. Everything NB posted is metagaming. How would your wizard know how to get past the Tarrasque's Spell Resistance? Keep in mind she has to date NOT BEEN AFFECTED BY A SINGLE SPELL. Yet his wiz knows he can "...now beat the Tarrasque's spell resistance with 100% certainty." Sure he might think to try Assay Resistance (at least you know the name of the spell) if he had it but KNOWING that this is the key and being persistent enough to sit there and try it over and over even though it's failing is not something a normal person would do. Remove the exact knowledge of the Tarrasque's magical defenses and and for all intents and purposes she is immune to magic from your characters point of view. So why would your wiz sit there and keep hammering her with the same spell over and over again (each spell costing your wiz 1,150GP) when all evidence suggests that the Big T is immune to that spell? The only reason your character would behave this way is because of outside knowledge from his player. That's a great way to go broke quick. If you went in to the woods with a group of friends and were attacked by a polar bear. Your friend shoots the bear with a tranquillizer dart and the bear keeps coming. Each dart is costing you $1000. Are you going to continue with the same darts until you get lucky? Personally I might try a couple shots or maybe 3 but then I'm going to try something else. The ONLY reason your strategy makes sense is if the characters know what the Tarrasque's is vulnerable to and the only way they can have acquired that knowledge is through player knowledge. If this knowledge was available then how come the Tarrasque has lived for thousands of years? Why hasn't someone else killed it?
mtbOgre 06-14-07, 02:50 PM	The way I see it the whole problem relies on assumptions about the terms of the encounter. What people think is an appropriate level of character knowledge and preparation for the encounter. The spectrum of possibilities looks roughly like this: Group Expected Result Average 10th level party prepared TPK with T in an enclosed area Average 10th level party prepared for a normal adventure encounter Players flee or die T in the open Average 10th Level party stocked for Tarrasque hunting based on Some players may die Knowledge Checks and info Tarrasque walks provided from typical DM Optimized 10th Level party stocked Some players may die for Tarrasque hunting based on Chance that Tarrasque dies knowledge garnered from MM Since the Tarrasque cleans up in 3 of the 4 scenarios it seems to me the myth that the "Tarrasque is a wimp" is busted. How good a chance the party has of killing the Tarrasque all depends on how much knowledge and preparation the players are granted. But the same can be said for any monster. Given exact knowledge and the same amount of money in magic items (including a scroll of Wish and the 10-20 5th+ level scrolls which you gave the Tarrasque hunters) you can build a 10th level party of hunters for ANY CR20 critter. For example old Red Dragon: Pre combat buffing: All characters get fire resistant equipment and dragon-bane equipment all characters get flying and Improved Invisibility cast on them Cast Assay Resistance to set aside the dragons SR Round One: Wizard: Cast Time Stop From Scroll (1d4+1 rounds) Cast Polar Ray from scroll (15d6 damage cold * 150%) no save Avg 78 Pts Dmg Cast Polar Ray from scroll (15d6 damage cold * 150%) no save Maybe: Cast Polar Ray from scroll (15d6 damage cold * 150%) no save Cast Polar Ray from scroll (15d6 damage cold * 150%) no save Cast Polar Ray from scroll (15d6 damage cold * 150%) no save Cast Polar Ray from scroll (15d6 damage cold * 150%) no save Move in a random direction Druid: Cast SNA IX to summon 2-4 greater Air Elementals to keep dragon busy Move in a random direction Thief: Uses UMD to use a cone of cold scroll (9d6 cold damage * 150%) Move in a random direction Fighter: Shoots 2 +5 arrows from his Dragon Bane Long Bow With good rolls the MU alone does 300+ damage in the first round. With average rolls he does just over 200 damage. The thief does an extra 47 points or so. Plus now the Dragon is dealing with 2-5 CR9 bruisers which are trashing his air superiority. This whole exercise is silly. It will take some time and some characters may die but they will take it down, probably in less the 5 rounds. Perfect knowledge + ideal preparation is a huge advantage which PCs generally don't and shouldn't have the benefit of.
Alpha_Moose 06-14-07, 03:09 PM	While wandering around Wizard McMage comes upon a quiet little village. "Well this looks like a nice place to stop and rest" he says. As he walks towards it he hears a deafening roar and sees a tree flying. A giant beast lumbers toward the village. "I've got to help those innocent villagers by killing that beast!" says Wizard. He prepares himself to fight this beast, making himself invisible and adding a few more common protections so this thing can't grab hold of him. He flies forwards, first attempting to weaken this thing. "Waves of Fatigue!" he shouts, spraying the area with this creature. The spell rebounds from the animal, almost hitting Wizard. "This thing seems to have some resistance to spells. I should cast Assay Resistance to try to beat it." He casts the spell, still staying out of reach of the monster. The beast barely noticed the previous spell, turned and saw nothing there, so continued to feast on the little squishies. Wizard casts Feeblemind, realizing that he has to control this beast first. The spell doesn't seem to affect the creature. "This thing is strong. But I have to keep trying to protect the innocents." He makes some illusionary trees around himself and the villagers. "Run now everyone! Feeblemind!" He continues to try to affect the creature. But it starts to get wise, and attacks the trees. They fall down, but Wizard had already moved away. "Feeblemind! Feeblemind!" One of the spells finally get though. The creature now slobbers around, but is still a threat. Wizard now pulls out his wand and blasts Blindness & Deafness at it. It now is blind, deaf, and stupid. Wizard continues to get everyone else out of the town, and prepares a spell to transform this beast into a harmless toad. Of course, that's just one example. But tell me what there was extreme metagaming or something that a Good Wizard with those spells wouldn't try to do anyways. He tried to make the thing not a threat and used what he thought would work to protect the villagers. Also, if this thing is a one of a kind legendary monster, why wouldn't the Wizard have heard of it? It's like Grendel, which Beowolf learned of even though no other being had lived.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-14-07, 04:17 PM	Level 9 wizard. ... Equipment: Headband of intelect +6, half a dozen scrolls of feeblemind, a wand of blindness & deafnesss. ... 9th level players have 36,000gp, the headband alone costs that. Try using the rules from the book we all argeed on. Picking up a tree would take a standard action. ... That allows the Wizard to fly away and forces the Tarrasque to find him again. Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Wall, or Permanent Image can ... easily confuse a creature that is dumber than a five year old. Picking up a weapon is part of a move action Picking anything up off the ground near you is a move action. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source. Do the trees in Hallucinatory Terrain smell like trees? Doesn’t Hallucinatory Terrain have a will save that it fails 5% of the time? Doesn’t Permanent Image have the same 5% its-going-to-actually-distract-him chance? The wall has the same save, but the Big T is used to going though walls so it’s pretty much worthless. The 5-year-old thing is a compliment. A nine-year has been proven to be smarter than half the people posting on here. Drop four years off that nine-year and I personally think its still ahead... If people stop making stuff up and metagaming the entire D&D world would be just a little bit harder. ... Wizard McMage comes upon a quiet little village. ... "I've got to help those innocent villagers by killing that beast!" ... "Waves of Fatigue!" ... "This thing seems to have some resistance to spells. I should cast Assay Resistance to try to beat it." ... Wizard casts Feeblemind, ... The spell doesn't seem to affect the creature. "This thing is strong. ... Feeblemind!" ... "Feeblemind! Feeblemind!" ... Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh I did enjoy reading that. You single handily pointed out everything wrong with 90% of the arguments here. And saying you beat 5% odds in four tries makes your parody of the posts before you all that much more entertaining. I'd give you a cookie for the best post parody I've seen in a while if I could. *** I suddenly have a flash of brilliance. How about we try beating the big T without a wizard! I mean, there are a lot more base classes out there than wizard & sorcerer. How about letting them have some fun beating the big T before level 20. I'd love to see the argument it's too low when your not using wizard or artificer or DMM enhanced cleric points.
bobothechimp 06-14-07, 04:40 PM	Let's get back on the point of the Tarrasque's almost guaranteed success at a listen check to pinpoint your location. Your invisibility is meaningless, it knows exactly where you are.
lord_zack 06-14-07, 05:13 PM	Well, despite the fact that the Tarrasque isn't necessary a wimp, I've created a CR 30 (I think, hasn't been playtested yet) version that is completely uber. Anyone want to see this monstrosity?
Alpha_Moose 06-14-07, 05:39 PM	9th level players have 36,000gp, the headband alone costs that. Try using the rules from the book we all argeed on. Of course, he couldn't have crafted all of those items. Picking up a weapon is part of a move action Picking anything up off the ground near you is a move action. No, pulling a tree out of the ground would require a standard action. Do the trees in Hallucinatory Terrain smell like trees? Doesn’t Hallucinatory Terrain have a will save that it fails 5% of the time? Doesn’t Permanent Image have the same 5% its-going-to-actually-distract-him chance? The wall has the same save, but the Big T is used to going though walls so it’s pretty much worthless. All of those only have saves if they're interacted with. Hallucinatory Terrain includes scent. A tarrasque is smarter than an animal, so it won't just run though walls or trees for no reason. It would only interact with something if it wants to eat it. The 5-year-old thing is a compliment. A nine-year has been proven to be smarter than half the people posting on here. Drop four years off that nine-year and I personally think its still ahead... Stay off the insults. If people stop making stuff up and metagaming the entire D&D world would be just a little bit harder. What is honestly metagaming about a Wizard actually being smart? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh I did enjoy reading that. You single handily pointed out everything wrong with 90% of the arguments here. And saying you beat 5% odds in four tries makes your parody of the posts before you all that much more entertaining. I'd give you a cookie for the best post parody I've seen in a while if I could. Oh, come on! I just didn't write Feeblemind half a dozen times to save space. My point was purely on the metagaming. At least say what's wrong instead of just insulting others who disagree with you. I suddenly have a flash of brilliance. How about we try beating the big T without a wizard! I mean, there are a lot more base classes out there than wizard & sorcerer. How about letting them have some fun beating the big T before level 20. I'd love to see the argument it's too low when your not using wizard or artificer or DMM enhanced cleric points. Everyone who has access to the spells mentioned could do this. Granted that's mostly spellcasters, but a Rogue could do the same. Let's get back on the point of the Tarrasque's almost guaranteed success at a listen check to pinpoint your location. Your invisibility is meaningless, it knows exactly where you are. It still gives the caster a 50% miss chance. This can also be countered with Silence. And it's ignoring the illusions or other sounds in the area, which make it harder for the Tarrasque.
Ace_of_time 06-14-07, 07:25 PM	That's "Stretch up and grab a ledge or something" reach, not melee reach. Big T's vertical melee reach is 20', just like its horizontal melee reach. Now, this is counted from the top of the Tarrasque's space, but even if we assume it's as tall as it is wide, that still only comes to 50'. Oh, and even if you think the reaches listed under the Jump skill are melee reach, the skill also states that the listed reaches are for bipeds, and that quadrupeds (like the Tarrasque) are treated as being one size smaller. (Yes, the Tarrasque is a quadruped, or at least a lot closer to that than being a biped. Table 8-4 on page 149 of the PHB lists reach for Colossal creatures as being 30 feet or more for tall creatures, and 20 feet or more for long creatures; ergo the Tarrasque is long.) Please post your source for this. To me he could stretch up to grab you just like he does the ledge. He is not a quadruped. He walks on two legs. None of the pics or text say anything like that. I like how some of you just assume that you will get to go first and that you will have 14 buffs on you already. Most combat doesn't work that way. Now sometimes it will but not this one. I don't see a wizard beating Big T one on one and I think we were assuming a full party of 4. I'm sure that some of you could design a wizard just for killing this thing but most players don't go, "So how am I going to build this wizard so that I can beat that Big T monster we will fight 19 levels from now." at 1st level. So far besides polymorphing , which hope to get past SR, There have been no attack spells on here that will work. The only one that I could think of is Combust but don't think the wizard is going to get close enough for it. He could pull up a tree and then next round ready an action to through it at the pretty light floating up in the sky. ( when you cast) If you beat him easy then he wasn't being played right.
Vanigo 06-14-07, 08:54 PM	Please post your source for this. To me he could stretch up to grab you just like he does the ledge.You know, I don't think vertical melee reach is explicitly addressed anywhere. I can, however, point out that the vertical reaches given under the Jump skill make no sense at all as melee reach. Take a very tall gnome - 3' 8" is the maximum height for a male. With a four foot vertical reach, he'd be unable to attack anything more than four inches above his head. Plus, how the heck would you address reach weapons and vertical reach? Does a 10' halberd suddenly become 16' long when you point it straight up? And that's not even going into how you'd deal with attacking things below you... I can also point out that the section on big and little creatures quite explicitly states that an ogre can attack targets up to 10' away in any direction, and up was a direction last time I checked. He is not a quadruped. He walks on two legs. None of the pics or text say anything like that.First, please note that I've already addressed this from a rules perspective. Secondly, judging from the picture, Big T is clearly a knuckle-walker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuckle-walking), which is a kind of quadruped. His feet are way too far back for him to stand up without his claws on the ground. Now, before you point out that knuckle-walking apes can stand up when they have to, I'd like to point out that they have no tails, and Big T has a huge, heavily armored (read: inflexible) tail that would plow straight into the ground if he tried. (Yes, knuckle-walking is a form of quadrupedal locomotion. Four limbs touching the ground equals quadruped.) And as long as we're arguing pictures, I'd like to point out that there's no way he can reach upwards without rearing way up. Even if his carapace wasn't in the way, which it is, those shoulders simply aren't built for it.
Ace_of_time 06-14-07, 10:24 PM	You know, I don't think vertical melee reach is explicitly addressed anywhere. I can, however, point out that the vertical reaches given under the Jump skill make no sense at all as melee reach. Take a very tall gnome - 3' 8" is the maximum height for a male. With a four foot vertical reach, he'd be unable to attack anything more than four inches above his head. Plus, how the heck would you address reach weapons and vertical reach? Does a 10' halberd suddenly become 16' long when you point it straight up? And that's not even going into how you'd deal with attacking things below you... I can also point out that the section on big and little creatures quite explicitly states that an ogre can attack targets up to 10' away in any direction, and up was a direction last time I checked. First, please note that I've already addressed this from a rules perspective. Secondly, judging from the picture, Big T is clearly a knuckle-walker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuckle-walking), which is a kind of quadruped. His feet are way too far back for him to stand up without his claws on the ground. Now, before you point out that knuckle-walking apes can stand up when they have to, I'd like to point out that they have no tails, and Big T has a huge, heavily armored (read: inflexible) tail that would plow straight into the ground if he tried. (Yes, knuckle-walking is a form of quadrupedal locomotion. Four limbs touching the ground equals quadruped.) And as long as we're arguing pictures, I'd like to point out that there's no way he can reach upwards without rearing way up. Even if his carapace wasn't in the way, which it is, those shoulders simply aren't built for it. 1. Vert reach is when you Stretch as far up as possible. If he could grab a ledge at that far up he could grab you. 2. A T-Rex has legs that far back you would think he fall on his face. Yeah that's right he has that long tail to help with balance. The jump skill entry is talking things like horse and the like that have four legs like centaurs. 3. When did they make tails that were not flexable? With what you said he wouldn't even be able to attack up without digging his tail into the ground. All he has to do is put his arms up in the air and stretch up as far as possible. All I'm saying is he is not a dragon. He could very well reach up like you or me. No trouble. There is no way he walks like that. 4. You could stab up in the air your vert reach. with a reach weapon that would be +5' up. unless you can find it some where that says different.
Flintlockhandmedown 06-14-07, 10:34 PM	Why do you guys care? Are you guys DMs who plan to spring a Tarrasque on your level 10 players? Do you honestly expect them to attack it? Much less survive? Much less win? This argument is utterly pointless unless it has an effect on the game. Right now I can't see this affecting any normal campaign. No level 10 party with a sane DM is going to do battle with a Tarrasque. Sheesh.
Ace_of_time 06-14-07, 10:41 PM	They want to prove they can do it at 10th with out thinking that maybe they shouldn't be able to.
Alpha_Moose 06-14-07, 11:20 PM	Sheesh. Um... theoretical practice? The whole point is just that the Tarrasque is too weak for a CR 20 creature. Of course I'm not going to fight it at level 9. But the point is that it can be easily fought then. They want to prove they can do it at 10th with out thinking that maybe they shouldn't be able to. But we can. So...... why not? Why shouldn't we?
Vanigo 06-15-07, 12:52 AM	1. Vert reach is when you Stretch as far up as possible. If he could grab a ledge at that far up he could grab you.He grabs with his mouth. I don't care what else you say, you can't possibly argue that he can reach as high with his teeth as he can with his claws. Well, not unless you argue that he can't reach up with his claws at all, anyway, but that's pretty much the exact opposite of your position. 2. A T-Rex has legs that far back you would think he fall on his face. Yeah that's right he has that long tail to help with balance. The jump skill entry is talking things like horse and the like that have four legs like centaurs. Actually, a T-Rex's legs are a little further forward, and, more importantly, a T-Rex has tiny little arms and a proportionally larger tail. Big T's gigantic claw arms are going to tilt the balance forward if he tries to stand on two legs. He might be able to run on two legs, since you lean forward when running anyway, but he can't stand like that. The jump skill entry gives only two categories: Bipeds and quadrupeds. Since there are countless creatures that are neither-nor, from purple worms to driders to will-o-wisps, we must assume that those creatures are treated as if they belonged to one of those two categories, and that they are segregated according to some criterion. Now, I'm of the opinion that the most reasonable way to do it is that tall creatures (according to the creature sizing chart) are treated as bipeds and long creatures are treated as quadrupeds, regardless of the actual number of legs they have on the ground. But that's just me. What would you suggest? (Oh, and I'm also quite certain that by "bipeds" they mean human-style erect-posture bipeds, not any old thing that goes around on two legs, but again, that's just me.) 3. When did they make tails that were not flexable? With what you said he wouldn't even be able to attack up without digging his tail into the ground.That's exactly what I'm saying. He can rear back a bit before his tail hits dirt, and of course on most terrain he's strong enough to push it in a ways, but he can't possibly bend it back far enough to stretch his full length vertically. Armor plating, even if it's jointed to let it bend back and forth a bit, just doesn't do that. And seriously, even without the armor plating, that tail has to be at least ten feet thick. Bending that sucker would be like bending an RV - can't be done without breaking something. Flesh just isn't elastic enough. All he has to do is put his arms up in the air and stretch up as far as possible.Sure, if he was physically capable of either of those feats. All I'm saying is he is not a dragon. He could very well reach up like you or me. No trouble.Even monkeys can't reach up like you or me. Humans and apes have a unique shoulder structure seen nowhere else in the animal kingdom. Other animals physically cannot get their upper forelegs parallel with their spines. There is no way he walks like that.Uh, walks like what? 4. You could stab up in the air your vert reach. with a reach weapon that would be +5' up. unless you can find it some where that says different.+5'? Where are you getting that? The rules clearly state (again, in the section on big and little combatants) that reach weapons double your natural reach. And you haven't addressed the point that a tall gnome's vertical reach is effectively zero, either.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-15-07, 08:01 PM	Oh, come on! I just didn't write Feeblemind half a dozen times to save space. My point was purely on the metagaming. At least say what's wrong instead of just insulting others who disagree with you. Practice what you say. As before I have pointed out a party of level 18s should be able to beat this thing without too much trouble. I even suggested that if you want to use it as a BBEG to use it on a part of 16s. My whole point it your using metaknowledge and not even using a realistic character and claiming every other circumstantial thing you possible can to say you can beat it at a low level. Hey guess what, a 1st level bard walks up on a 20th level wizard while he is sleeping and casts Charm Person. Wizard auto fails his save and scribes some scrolls for the bard to later use to kill the wizard. Oh, and umm... the wizard did not cast alarm or sleep in an extra planar space. Yeah, applied as many things I can to claim I'm right because my point is not that a 1st level bard will kill a 20th level wizard. It’s just that the bard can do it. Did I prove a wizard's CR is too low or a bard's is too high? Am I doing anything more than arguing and claiming this is um... theoretical practice? Read Me before you run around saying a wizard is going to blow all his gold on scrolls. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a) For the record I really did think you were doing a parody on the posts, excuse me for thinking the idea was so adsurb* to me (a guy who actually plays D&D) and I didn't want to offend you by thinking you meant what you said as some kind of fact or point. I guess I in my assumption, continue your comments that contribute so much to the forums as you were.
Ace_of_time 06-15-07, 08:23 PM	He grabs with his mouth. I don't care what else you say, you can't possibly argue that he can reach as high with his teeth as he can with his claws. Well, not unless you argue that he can't reach up with his claws at all, anyway, but that's pretty much the exact opposite of your position. Actually, a T-Rex's legs are a little further forward, and, more importantly, a T-Rex has tiny little arms and a proportionally larger tail. Big T's gigantic claw arms are going to tilt the balance forward if he tries to stand on two legs. He might be able to run on two legs, since you lean forward when running anyway, but he can't stand like that. The jump skill entry gives only two categories: Bipeds and quadrupeds. Since there are countless creatures that are neither-nor, from purple worms to driders to will-o-wisps, we must assume that those creatures are treated as if they belonged to one of those two categories, and that they are segregated according to some criterion. Now, I'm of the opinion that the most reasonable way to do it is that tall creatures (according to the creature sizing chart) are treated as bipeds and long creatures are treated as quadrupeds, regardless of the actual number of legs they have on the ground. But that's just me. What would you suggest? (Oh, and I'm also quite certain that by "bipeds" they mean human-style erect-posture bipeds, not any old thing that goes around on two legs, but again, that's just me.) That's exactly what I'm saying. He can rear back a bit before his tail hits dirt, and of course on most terrain he's strong enough to push it in a ways, but he can't possibly bend it back far enough to stretch his full length vertically. Armor plating, even if it's jointed to let it bend back and forth a bit, just doesn't do that. And seriously, even without the armor plating, that tail has to be at least ten feet thick. Bending that sucker would be like bending an RV - can't be done without breaking something. Flesh just isn't elastic enough. Sure, if he was physically capable of either of those feats. Even monkeys can't reach up like you or me. Humans and apes have a unique shoulder structure seen nowhere else in the animal kingdom. Other animals physically cannot get their upper forelegs parallel with their spines. Uh, walks like what? +5'? Where are you getting that? The rules clearly state (again, in the section on big and little combatants) that reach weapons double your natural reach. And you haven't addressed the point that a tall gnome's vertical reach is effectively zero, either. the gnome would at least get the min reach for the weapon which is 5'. Are you saying that unlike what you said before that this one wouldn't get the 5' from a reach stabbing up when you said before that it was the same no matter which way you attack even up. His SA is on his bite and that doesn't mean that he can't grab with his claw. Or are you saying that he could grab a tree but not a person. I have seen monkeys swing from tree and walk with their hands up all the time. Are you even looking at the pic. he is almost standing up right now and his tail is not even on the ground. Why could he just put his tail between his legs. Now you say that his tail lets him have 2 claw attacks in a full attack but couldn't let he walk on two feet. As for the other monsters you asked about It would be up to the DM or Wizard to say. To me if it looks like it walks on two legs then it is biped and anything else would fall in the other one. That said he may walk with has arms low to the ground but that doesn't mean he can't grab up in the air and any special rules like that would have been put in the entry. So he can attack 180 degrees but can't stand upright with out ripping it off. That makes no sense. So post an animal that is like Big T and use it as an ex. That monkey from the Clint Eastwood movie walks up right with his hands in the air all the time with no trouble.
Alpha_Moose 06-16-07, 12:06 AM	Practice what you say. I apologize if I have insulted anyone. As before I have pointed out a party of level 18s should be able to beat this thing without too much trouble. I even suggested that if you want to use it as a BBEG to use it on a part of 16s. My whole point it your using metaknowledge and not even using a realistic character and claiming every other circumstantial thing you possible can to say you can beat it at a low level. I still do not see what is metagaming about such a character. Granted, it is one specific character so not every one will be like that. Did I prove a wizard's CR is too low or a bard's is too high? Am I doing anything more than arguing and claiming this is um... theoretical practice? That scenario was far more extreme than the one I mentioned. I tried to present the scenario that would unfold as according to what northern_bear mentioned. Read Me before you run around saying a wizard is going to blow all his gold on scrolls. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a) The Wizard does not need to blow all his money on scrolls, as he can make many of them. He can also make many other items if he has other Item Creation feats. For the record I really did think you were doing a parody on the posts, excuse me for thinking the idea was so adsurb* to me (a guy who actually plays D&D) and I didn't want to offend you by thinking you meant what you said as some kind of fact or point. I guess I in my assumption, continue your comments that contribute so much to the forums as you were. I actually play D&D also. I however have never fought more than half of the monsters that exist. That does not mean that I cannot contribute on a conversation about them. Let's start this whole thing over. The main point was that the Tarrasque; being stupid, unable to fly, unable to cast spells, and having virtually no tactical options other than run and hit; makes it an opponent that should not be considered a CR 20 encounter. If a person knows its weaknesses it is far too easy (a 9th level Wizard could do it) even compared to other creatures of CR 20, and as a random encounter for a 20th level party it is not a challenge at all again compared to other CR 20 encounters.
dman11235 06-16-07, 01:05 AM	But the reason that it is CR 20 is that no character will know anything about it, and it will appear to be immune to every thing, so, if you were up against a huge, slightly draconic looking thing that eats buildings, would you sit there and keep casting spells, or would you run, seeing that your spells have so far had no effect? Personally, I'd run.
Alpha_Moose 06-16-07, 01:11 AM	But the reason that it is CR 20 is that no character will know anything about it, and it will appear to be immune to every thing, so, if you were up against a huge, slightly draconic looking thing that eats buildings, would you sit there and keep casting spells, or would you run, seeing that your spells have so far had no effect? Personally, I'd run. Well, you and I don't really have spells so... of course. But for a professional adventurer who's seen all types of stuff, they might just do it.
Karak_Nechot 06-16-07, 02:18 AM	I apologize if I have insulted anyone. I still do not see what is metagaming about such a character. Granted, it is one specific character so not every one will be like that. You're making a character optimized SOLEY for this one situation. Real characters can't do that, or they die. Die early and badly. What you are suggesting is that the tarrasque is weak when faced with a character that is designed to its core with the tarrasque's demise intended. That logic just does not work. That scenario was far more extreme than the one I mentioned. I tried to present the scenario that would unfold as according to what northern_bear mentioned. And the scenario fails under scrutiny. The Wizard does not need to blow all his money on scrolls, as he can make many of them. He can also make many other items if he has other Item Creation feats. Even with Item Creation feats, the items you suggest are still outside of reach under a normal campaign. A 9th level PC should have around 36,000 gp in wealth, and usually item don't exceed more than 1/4 the total value. A headband of intellect +6, even created by Craft Wondrous Item, is completely out of reach for most games at 9th level; even a +4 is kind of pushing it. I actually play D&D also. I however have never fought more than half of the monsters that exist. That does not mean that I cannot contribute on a conversation about them. You're right, you can contribute. But when you don't back things up with evidence or experience and only give extreme potentials instead, it weakens your contribution to being worthless. I've seen an Epic level party run from the tarrasque because they were not in a good situation to fight it, leaving one very messy body digesting behind. Do I claim the big T should be a CR 23+ from this? No, that was relatively unique situation, one that caught the PCs off guard. Let's start this whole thing over. The main point was that the Tarrasque; being stupid, unable to fly, unable to cast spells, and having virtually no tactical options other than run and hit; makes it an opponent that should not be considered a CR 20 encounter. If a person knows its weaknesses it is far too easy (a 9th level Wizard could do it) even compared to other creatures of CR 20, and as a random encounter for a 20th level party it is not a challenge at all again compared to other CR 20 encounters. Again, knowing ahead of time what you are about to face is a HUGE boon in D&D. Your Monty Haul uber-designed 9th level wizard could have the possibility of a potential of a chance of maybe killing the tarrasque, but that does not mean anything about CRs. It means that means that "Knowing is half the battle!! Yo Joe!!" This is nothing new. I can make a 10th level sorcerer who has a good chance of killing CR20+ dragons. Does that mean we should take dragons DOWN a few CRs? I really don't think so. Now, seriously, why don't you try actually playing with a tarrasque in a game, even a mock session. Try putting a totally average 22nd level party against two tarrasques, just like the MM suggests for gauging CRs. If the party has no issues with them; meaning they spend substancially less than 20% of their resource, then it's CR is too high. If you want a true test, have them face a pair of tarrasques every hour. If the tarrasque is CRed correctly, then the party will start suffering serious casualties at the 5th pair to hit them, if not suffering a full TPK. No metagaming. No stupid "but I always have my wraith servant with me" munchkinning. Just take a party you would expect to have in your game at 22nd level, and have them kick-in-a-door to a pair of hungry tarrasques. I might try it sometime myself, if I get some time.
Vanigo 06-16-07, 02:32 AM	the gnome would at least get the min reach for the weapon which is 5'. Are you saying that unlike what you said before that this one wouldn't get the 5' from a reach stabbing up when you said before that it was the same no matter which way you attack even up.No, you misunderstand me. I've examined two views on attacking upwards. First, I propose how I think the rules actually work: attacking up is just like attacking in any other direction. Secondly, I've looked at how things might work (or fail to work) if you use the vertical reach from the Jump skill as vertical melee reach. I've done this for the express purpose of pointing out how very, very, silly it is. Also, the minimum reach of the weapon is 5'? Weapons don't have anything even remotely resembling a minimum reach. Even reach weapons don't have any sort of reach of their own; they simply modify the reach of the creature who uses it. Non-reach weapons do nothing at all to the user's reach. Oh, and you haven't said anything about how you'd handle attacking creatures below you, either. His SA is on his bite and that doesn't mean that he can't grab with his claw. Or are you saying that he could grab a tree but not a person.Yeah, okay, point. I have seen monkeys swing from tree and walk with their hands up all the time.I find this highly unlikely. Are you aware that chimpanzees are not actually monkeys? Chimpanzees are apes. Monkeys are different. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey) Are you even looking at the pic. he is almost standing up right now and his tail is not even on the ground.Uh, to use his tail as a counterweight he'd want to keep it in the air. I'm not sure what your point is here. Why could he just put his tail between his legs. Now you say that his tail lets him have 2 claw attacks in a full attack but couldn't let he walk on two feet.Uh, what? I seriously can't tell what you're talking about here. He can't put his tail between his legs; that's part of what I'm saying. (If you meant to ask why he couldn't, it's because that tail is too inflexible.) As for the claw attacks, I don't even know how to begin to interpret that. When have I said anything about his attacks? As for the other monsters you asked about It would be up to the DM or Wizard to say. To me if it looks like it walks on two legs then it is biped and anything else would fall in the other one.That's... crazy. Do you mean to say that a yuan-ti halfblood with a snake tail instead of legs, which is as tall as a human, cannot attack something at chest height? Or that a three-legged but otherwise humanoid abberation would have the same problem? Or that an axebeak (from the Arms and Equipment Guide; think chocobo) can reach sixteen feet in the air? That said he may walk with has arms low to the ground but that doesn't mean he can't grab up in the air and any special rules like that would have been put in the entry.First, I'm not saying that he can't reach in the air at all - I'd say he could probably rear back as far as 45 degrees and get his forearms (but not his upper arms) parallel with his spine. That's not going to get him 128' of reach by any stretch of the imagination, but it's quite different from saying that he can't reach upwards. He just can't reach behind his back. Secondly, if we go with the vertical reach = vertical melee reach thing you've been espousing, you don't need special rules to give creatures unusual vertical reaches. Take another look at the Jump skill: The maximum vertical reach (maximum height the creature can reach without jumping) for an average creature of a given size is shown on the table below(Emphasis mine) The fact that the table only gives the vertical reach for an average creature of any given size implies that individual creatures, or even different individuals, can and do have vertical reaches that vary from the norm. This lets you say things like "vargouilles have an eighteen inch vertical reach (when they're not flying) even though they're Small creatures" without special rules, simply because vargouilles are clearly not average Small creatures. So he can attack 180 degrees but can't stand upright with out ripping it off. That makes no sense.Uh, what? In the future, could you please try to be a bit more clear? I can only assume "it" is his tail, but what attack are you talking about? His tail slap? His tail slap can actually hit anything within his reach, but that's an artifact of the fact that D&D has no facing rules. He can claw and tail slap the same creature in one turn because he can turn around as fast as he wants. It goes bite-claw-claw-turn-around-real-quick-tail slap. No tail flexibility required. So post an animal that is like Big T and use it as an ex.That'd be tough; I don't think any animal has ever had an anatomy quite like Big T. Giant claws, big-ass tail, digitigrade rear legs... it'd be some sort of unholy fusion between a gorilla, a T-Rex, and Edward Scissorhands. That monkey from the Clint Eastwood movie walks up right with his hands in the air all the time with no trouble.That "monkey" (and I can only assume you're talking about a chimpanzee, which as I said earlier is different) doesn't have a two-by-four coming out of its ass.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-16-07, 03:56 AM	The MMI has only three CR 20 monsters listed; here they are beside each other. X Balor Fiend Terra HD 20d8+200 (290) 18d8+144 (225) 48d10+594 (858) Init +11 +12 +7 Speed fly 90 fly 60 land 20 AC 35 40 35 Grapple +36 +35 +81 Reach 10 10 20 Avg Dmg* 80 109 122.5 Fort Save +22 +19 +38 Relf Save +19 +19 +29 Will Save +19 +21 +20 DR 15/c. iron & g. 15/silver & g. 15/epic SR 28 32 32 *Assuming all attacks hit based on their best choice full attack. Notable stuff. Balron: True Seeing 24/7, Blasphemy at will, can summon minor backup. Pit Fiend: Regeneration 5 if DR applies, Blasphemy at will, can summon minor backup. Tarrasque: Immune to rays/cones/lines and can reflect them, regeneration 40, immune to energy drain and ability damage, immortal to anything that cannot cast wish. Easiest ways to win against them (just some examples). Balron: A split ray reach shivering touch spell off a rod of maximize for an insta kill ranged touch attack (7th lvl spell slot used, one charge form the rod of 3 per day). Any halfway decent build from ToB. Pit Fiend: As above. Tarrasque: Fly around spamming two spells per round waiting for it to fail it's save, and then cast a spell that costs 5,000XP. Note - depending on the save or die spell used, you may have to cast wish on the same round it failed it's save, else it regains 40hp and you still have to knock it's life down next round. What they are good against Balron: They make a decent fight for any near epic class. Pit Fiend: They make a decent fight for any near epic class. Tarrasque: Got wish? No? Then it's invincible and will kill you at some point. Oh, and meleeing this thing is suicide. Standing on the ground within 150 feet of it without freedom of movement is too. But is it worth its CR? The arguments that say it is not use a wizard and assume the wizard has both ample buff time but also carries 12+ scrolls of the same save or die spell. A single comment has been made on other classes, and that was basically "buy more scrolls, UMD everything". Right... What about the question "what about other classes?” why does it go unanswered? Is it because they know noncasters don't stand a chance in hell? A paladin on a winged mount using the most broken charge combo the CO boards have made with fly by attack might stand a chance. And even then the said paladin can only knock it out for a round or too and not actually kill it so if it was a "two things enter one thing leaves" fight then at some point the big T bites the sleeping out-of-spells-and-healing paladin in half. Here, I'll give you a break, Show me how a Balor can beat a Tarrasque using the stat blocks provided in the book without "I go buy some scrolls" cheese. Do the same for the Pit Fiend (who I might add, at least has access to wish once a year).
runestar 06-16-07, 06:48 AM	Cr does not indicate how effective a monster will be against another monster, it measures how powerful the monster will be against your PCs. A hound archon (cr4) can take down a Raksasha (cr10) with relative ease if properly played, but that does not mean that either cr is flawed mechanically, as it is meant to measure an entirely different thing. Here, I'll give you a break, Show me how a Balor can beat a Tarrasque using the stat blocks provided in the book without "I go buy some scrolls" cheese. Do the same for the Pit Fiend (who I might add, at least has access to wish once a year). Well, the balor and pit fiend each has access to standard items (as per their treasure entry), which may entitle them to either 1d4 medium magic items (10,000gp each) or 1d3 major magic items (40,000gp each). The DMG even has the following provision... Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home. Treasure can include coins, goods, and items. Creatures can have varying amounts of each, as follows. Thus, it is certainly possible for it to roll up a scroll of wish (which the balor should have no problems using due to its fairly high UMD score). Or go for the tried and tested method: give it a scroll of gate or candle of invocation, and gate in a solar. Eventually, the tarrasque will roll a natural 1 vs the solar's incessant pelting of slaying arrows, then have it follow up with its innate wish SLA or miracle spell memorized.:)
Ace_of_time 06-16-07, 09:36 AM	No, you misunderstand me. I've examined two views on attacking upwards. First, I propose how I think the rules actually work: attacking up is just like attacking in any other direction. Secondly, I've looked at how things might work (or fail to work) if you use the vertical reach from the Jump skill as vertical melee reach. I've done this for the express purpose of pointing out how very, very, silly it is. Also, the minimum reach of the weapon is 5'? Weapons don't have anything even remotely resembling a minimum reach. Even reach weapons don't have any sort of reach of their own; they simply modify the reach of the creature who uses it. Non-reach weapons do nothing at all to the user's reach. Oh, and you haven't said anything about how you'd handle attacking creatures below you, either. Yeah, okay, point. I find this highly unlikely. Are you aware that chimpanzees are not actually monkeys? Chimpanzees are apes. Monkeys are different. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey) Uh, to use his tail as a counterweight he'd want to keep it in the air. I'm not sure what your point is here. Uh, what? I seriously can't tell what you're talking about here. He can't put his tail between his legs; that's part of what I'm saying. (If you meant to ask why he couldn't, it's because that tail is too inflexible.) As for the claw attacks, I don't even know how to begin to interpret that. When have I said anything about his attacks? That's... crazy. Do you mean to say that a yuan-ti halfblood with a snake tail instead of legs, which is as tall as a human, cannot attack something at chest height? Or that a three-legged but otherwise humanoid abberation would have the same problem? Or that an axebeak (from the Arms and Equipment Guide; think chocobo) can reach sixteen feet in the air? First, I'm not saying that he can't reach in the air at all - I'd say he could probably rear back as far as 45 degrees and get his forearms (but not his upper arms) parallel with his spine. That's not going to get him 128' of reach by any stretch of the imagination, but it's quite different from saying that he can't reach upwards. He just can't reach behind his back. Secondly, if we go with the vertical reach = vertical melee reach thing you've been espousing, you don't need special rules to give creatures unusual vertical reaches. Take another look at the Jump skill: (Emphasis mine) The fact that the table only gives the vertical reach for an average creature of any given size implies that individual creatures, or even different individuals, can and do have vertical reaches that vary from the norm. This lets you say things like "vargouilles have an eighteen inch vertical reach (when they're not flying) even though they're Small creatures" without special rules, simply because vargouilles are clearly not average Small creatures. Uh, what? In the future, could you please try to be a bit more clear? I can only assume "it" is his tail, but what attack are you talking about? His tail slap? His tail slap can actually hit anything within his reach, but that's an artifact of the fact that D&D has no facing rules. He can claw and tail slap the same creature in one turn because he can turn around as fast as he wants. It goes bite-claw-claw-turn-around-real-quick-tail slap. No tail flexibility required. That'd be tough; I don't think any animal has ever had an anatomy quite like Big T. Giant claws, big-ass tail, digitigrade rear legs... it'd be some sort of unholy fusion between a gorilla, a T-Rex, and Edward Scissorhands. That "monkey" (and I can only assume you're talking about a chimpanzee, which as I said earlier is different) doesn't have a two-by-four coming out of its ass. :confused: :confused: I don't have time right now to go in full post on this but will latter. We were typing about reach weapons. I even said reach weapons. I want to get this right so you say that the gnome here using a long spear to stab up wouldn't get the reach add on his vert reach because he is small. I'm saying that the same gnome would get to add the 5' on to it because the nature of the weapon would allow more vert reach than normal. So a ogre with natural 10' would give him double which is 20' feet instead of his 16' vert reach. The snake body thing is just that a snake and she would have to keep the lower half of her body on the ground and wouldn't be able to stretch up like a human can. Any thing with out arms like the Axe beak ( it's been a while since a saw this one) would not be ale to reach as far. That commonsense. Those big legs you keep typing about are jumpers legs and would extend at least twice what they are now which would as the pic show leave his tail drooping down between his legs. only the small end, which he is moving back and forth would be left on the ground. I'm sure he could keep from breaking that part off. she would still get her natural reach of 5' no matter what. The ledge or wizard would be right over his head and even if the wizard did get right over his head he could take a 5' step then grab. Be as how it is in front of him now. I have seen monkeys do it to like spider monkeys. Yes I know there is a difference between them and apes. If there is no animal like Big T then don't use them to prove your point because none of them would be able to do what Big T could do. Lets not get space confused with size he is. A purple worms space is 20'/15' and he is 80' long and have a natural reach of 15' but vert reach of 32' not 64' because he would have to keep half his body on the ground.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-16-07, 03:28 PM	Cr does not indicate how effective a monster will be against another monster, ...USE A WISH SCROLL!... :) Yeah I it don't, but the Big T can take both the Balron & Pit Fiend at once and win* when you use their statblocks and don't run around saying "use a wish scroll!". Just trying to break away from the linar thinking of that wizards are the only charecter class that ever fights stuff like this. What no one plays anything else? I wounder why they printed complete champion then... *By win I mean the Balron teleports away and the Pit Fiend flies off. Then one of them comes up with the idea to lure it into towns just for the fun of it.
Vanigo 06-16-07, 09:46 PM	:confused: :confused: I don't have time right now to go in full post on this but will latter. We were typing about reach weapons. I even said reach weapons. I want to get this right so you say that the gnome here using a long spear to stab up wouldn't get the reach add on his vert reach because he is small. I'm saying that the same gnome would get to add the 5' on to it because the nature of the weapon would allow more vert reach than normal. So a ogre with natural 10' would give him double which is 20' feet instead of his 16' vert reach.Okay, let's try this again. I have two main contentions here: First, I contend that attacking upwards is just like attacking in any other direction. Second, I contend that if you used vertical reach as vertical melee reach, a gnome's vertical melee reach of 4' off the ground would mean he has almost no ability to attack anything above his head. Furthermore, I've said that wielding a normal weapon does nothing to this because normal weapons don't have reach of their own, and that wielding a reach weapon does nothing (or maybe raises the vertical reach from four inches to eight) because reach weapons don't add anything to your reach, they apply a multiplier, which is a different matter entirely. (Actually, thinking about it a bit more, you could say that a reach weapon doubles the gnome's total reach off the ground, not his reach above his head, so it would let him attack things up to 8' off the ground - but that's even worse in other ways, because it would mean a Colossal humanoid with a halberd could attack something 256 feet off the ground, where he can only hit something 60 feet away horizontally. Not that being able to hit something 64+(64*2)=192' off the ground is much better, I suppose.) Oh, and once again: Reach weapons do not give you +5' of reach. They double your natural reach. There is a difference. Now, your bit about the ogre is notable because it's so outrageously confused. First, you say that an ogre has a normal vertical melee reach of 16'. Next, you say that an ogre with a halberd has a 20' horizontal reach, because that's twice his normal horizontal reach. So far, so good. You're maintaining that vertical and horizontal reach are completely separate concepts, but there's nothing inherently contradictory about that. (Please note that there is a difference between not being inherently contradictory and being right.) Now, you're saying that an ogre with a halberd has a 20' vertical melee reach... because that's twice his normal horizontal melee reach. WTF? And you still haven't said anything about The snake body thing is just that a snake and she would have to keep the lower half of her body on the ground and wouldn't be able to stretch up like a human can.Not so much. The differences for yuan-ti fullbloods without legs are pretty sparse: aside from their different movement speeds and constrict attack, they're just like yuan-ti fullbloods with legs. Any thing with out arms like the Axe beak ( it's been a while since a saw this one) would not be ale to reach as far. That commonsense.Common sense, sure. But where are the rules for it, it it's treated like any other biped? Those big legs you keep typing about are jumpers legs and would extend at least twice what they are now which would as the pic show leave his tail drooping down between his legs. only the small end, which he is moving back and forth would be left on the ground. I'm sure he could keep from breaking that part off.Those are not jumper's legs. They don't look like rabbit legs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit). They don't look like kangaroo legs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo) (the red kangaroo picture gives you the best look at them). They don't look like springhare legs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springhare). See what all those have in common? They've got their ankles on the ground. (You might think those are backwards-pointing knees, but they're anatomically ankles - most animals' paws are actually just their toes.) Plus, they've got short thighs. Big T's legs look nothing like that. Now, they would be pretty long if stretched out all the way, but his hips aren't going to be able to get his thighs parallel with his spine - those are a T-Rex's hips, and T-Rex hips don't do that. Plus, I'd be surprised if his ankles bent that far. she would still get her natural reach of 5' no matter what.Uh, who are you talking about? This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rest of the paragraph it was in. The ledge or wizard would be right over his head and even if the wizard did get right over his head he could take a 5' step then grab. Be as how it is in front of him now.Oh, sure, I never said he couldn't; I was simply making a point about his anatomy. I have seen monkeys do it to like spider monkeys.Do you have pictures? Otherwise I have to assume you're mistaken, because I've had more than one anthropology professor tell me that's impossible. (And keep in mind, whether they're as flexible as a human's shoulders or not, a spider monkey's shoulders are far more flexible than, say, a cat's, which Big T's shoulders are much closer to.) Yes I know there is a difference between them and apes. If there is no animal like Big T then don't use them to prove your point because none of them would be able to do what Big T could do.Oh, just because there's no creature exactly like Big T doesn't mean there aren't animals with some parts of their anatomy similar (but then other parts different). For instance, he's got the hips of a T-Rex, so I can use a T-Rex to make a point about what his hips can and cannot do. He's got the shoulders of some sort of quadrupedal mammal - a big cat, probably - so, again, I cite that animal to make a point about that portion of the anatomy. Lets not get space confused with size he is. A purple worms space is 20'/15' and he is 80' long and have a natural reach of 15' but vert reach of 32' not 64' because he would have to keep half his body on the ground. ... What's your point?
Ace_of_time 06-16-07, 10:57 PM	Okay, let's try this again. I have two main contentions here: First, I contend that attacking upwards is just like attacking in any other direction. Second, I contend that if you used vertical reach as vertical melee reach, a gnome's vertical melee reach of 4' off the ground would mean he has almost no ability to attack anything above his head. Furthermore, I've said that wielding a normal weapon does nothing to this because normal weapons don't have reach of their own, and that wielding a reach weapon does nothing (or maybe raises the vertical reach from four inches to eight) because reach weapons don't add anything to your reach, they apply a multiplier, which is a different matter entirely. (Actually, thinking about it a bit more, you could say that a reach weapon doubles the gnome's total reach off the ground, not his reach above his head, so it would let him attack things up to 8' off the ground - but that's even worse in other ways, because it would mean a Colossal humanoid with a halberd could attack something 256 feet off the ground, where he can only hit something 60 feet away horizontally. Not that being able to hit something 64+(64*2)=192' off the ground is much better, I suppose.) Oh, and once again: Reach weapons do not give you +5' of reach. They double your natural reach. There is a difference. Now, your bit about the ogre is notable because it's so outrageously confused. First, you say that an ogre has a normal vertical melee reach of 16'. Next, you say that an ogre with a halberd has a 20' horizontal reach, because that's twice his normal horizontal reach. So far, so good. You're maintaining that vertical and horizontal reach are completely separate concepts, but there's nothing inherently contradictory about that. (Please note that there is a difference between not being inherently contradictory and being right.) Now, you're saying that an ogre with a halberd has a 20' vertical melee reach... because that's twice his normal horizontal melee reach. WTF? And you still haven't said anything about Not so much. The differences for yuan-ti fullbloods without legs are pretty sparse: aside from their different movement speeds and constrict attack, they're just like yuan-ti fullbloods with legs. Common sense, sure. But where are the rules for it, it it's treated like any other biped? Those are not jumper's legs. They don't look like rabbit legs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit). They don't look like kangaroo legs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo) (the red kangaroo picture gives you the best look at them). They don't look like springhare legs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springhare). See what all those have in common? They've got their ankles on the ground. (You might think those are backwards-pointing knees, but they're anatomically ankles - most animals' paws are actually just their toes.) Plus, they've got short thighs. Big T's legs look nothing like that. Now, they would be pretty long if stretched out all the way, but his hips aren't going to be able to get his thighs parallel with his spine - those are a T-Rex's hips, and T-Rex hips don't do that. Plus, I'd be surprised if his ankles bent that far. Uh, who are you talking about? This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rest of the paragraph it was in. Oh, sure, I never said he couldn't; I was simply making a point about his anatomy. Do you have pictures? Otherwise I have to assume you're mistaken, because I've had more than one anthropology professor tell me that's impossible. (And keep in mind, whether they're as flexible as a human's shoulders or not, a spider monkey's shoulders are far more flexible than, say, a cat's, which Big T's shoulders are much closer to.) Oh, just because there's no creature exactly like Big T doesn't mean there aren't animals with some parts of their anatomy similar (but then other parts different). For instance, he's got the hips of a T-Rex, so I can use a T-Rex to make a point about what his hips can and cannot do. He's got the shoulders of some sort of quadrupedal mammal - a big cat, probably - so, again, I cite that animal to make a point about that portion of the anatomy. ... What's your point? So you are in school for anatomy? Why not just show you teacher the pic and see what he thinks about it. You forgot frogs. I said +5 because small and med creatures reach is 5' and I double the large creature because his reach is more than 5'. I alway just add + 5 to small and med and times 2 to anything larger. I don't need a rule it just make sense to me so that's how I do it. But if you know where the rule is please enlighten this poor commoner. So how far up do you think he can reach? I really want to know and will not post anything else to what you did until you post back.
northern_bear 06-17-07, 03:52 PM	I can make a 10th level sorcerer who has a good chance of killing CR20+ dragons. Really? Can I see that? Dragons are smart, fast, they can fly, cast spells, and attack at range. Capabilities the Tarrasque lacks. Chief among these differences, is inteligence. Hunting a tarrasque is like hunting grizzly bears. Sure, it's tough if you get into toe-to-toe combat with the thing. But if you prepare yourself, you should be pretty safe, and pretty sucesful. Hunting a dragon is more like hunting a human. Risky and unpredicatable.
Alpha_Moose 06-17-07, 04:37 PM	Also, those tactics that work against the Tarrasque work against any creature that can't fly and has no ranged attacks. Just looking at the Tarrasque should prove that unless they've got some magical ability they're grounded. A simple Detect Magic would prove that it doesn't have any magic, so that tactic would work. Very few creatures are actually immune to all spells, most just have SR. So it's more logical for a spellcaster to assume that they have a high SR and not immunity. This is one specific tactic, but it could be useful against multiple opponents so a prepared spellcaster could certainly have this be one of their tactics that they use. Also, I might try that mock session thing. My brother could help me out. I could try to make a party that is prepared for any CR 20 encounter and he has me fight different encounters, one of which would be the Tarrasque. That way I could also compare him against other monsters of his strength. This would of course probably just be for my own benefit though.
Vanigo 06-18-07, 02:21 AM	So you are in school for anatomy? Why not just show you teacher the pic and see what he thinks about it. You forgot frogs.Uh, no, I'm not. Comp sci, with some anthropology classes (including stuff about the evolution of Man, which involved some discussion about the shoulders of primates) to fill out breadth requirements. And it's kinda summer now, even if I hadn't graduated this spring. Oh, and fine: Big T's legs aren't anything like frog legs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:L_tyleri.jpg), either. I said +5 because small and med creatures reach is 5' and I double the large creature because his reach is more than 5'. I alway just add + 5 to small and med and times 2 to anything larger.Why would you do it that way? Always doubling reach is infinitely more self-consistent. I don't need a rule it just make sense to me so that's how I do it. But if you know where the rule is please enlighten this poor commoner.(I assume you're talking about the axebeak thing here, but I can't really tell. If you were talking about something else, feel free to disregard this.) :sigh: There aren't any, of course. But then, I'm the one who's saying that you don't need special rules to make the axebeak's vertical reach make some kind of sense. I'm saying that it should be treated as a quadruped (since it's a long creature and not a tall one), giving it an 8' vertical reach. You're the one saying "Oh, it has two legs, so we treat it as a humanoid biped, so it has a 16' vertical reach, but that doesn't make sense, so we need to make an exception." So how far up do you think he can reach? I really want to know and will not post anything else to what you did until you post back.Well, like I said, I figure he can rear back to about 45 degrees. He's got maybe fifteen feet of spine in front of his hips, and his forearms look to be around 20 feet long, so 35'*sin(45) = about 25' above his hips. Add 20 feet for his legs in their current positions, another 5-10' because he can straighten them out some, and that brings us to 50-55' off the ground.
Ace_of_time 06-18-07, 04:54 AM	Uh, no, I'm not. Comp sci, with some anthropology classes (including stuff about the evolution of Man, which involved some discussion about the shoulders of primates) to fill out breadth requirements. And it's kinda summer now, even if I hadn't graduated this spring. Oh, and fine: Big T's legs aren't anything like frog legs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:L_tyleri.jpg), either. Why would you do it that way? Always doubling reach is infinitely more self-consistent. (I assume you're talking about the axebeak thing here, but I can't really tell. If you were talking about something else, feel free to disregard this.) :sigh: There aren't any, of course. But then, I'm the one who's saying that you don't need special rules to make the axebeak's vertical reach make some kind of sense. I'm saying that it should be treated as a quadruped (since it's a long creature and not a tall one), giving it an 8' vertical reach. You're the one saying "Oh, it has two legs, so we treat it as a humanoid biped, so it has a 16' vertical reach, but that doesn't make sense, so we need to make an exception." Well, like I said, I figure he can rear back to about 45 degrees. He's got maybe fifteen feet of spine in front of his hips, and his forearms look to be around 20 feet long, so 35'*sin(45) = about 25' above his hips. Add 20 feet for his legs in their current positions, another 5-10' because he can straighten them out some, and that brings us to 50-55' off the ground. The reach weapon the only thing I can say is that is how my mind works some times and ether way it still comes out to the same thing for small and med. Yes I was talking about about the Axe beak and There is some confusion. I said before that if it had unusual body, like with no arms that I would still say they are quadruped. The space and reach commit before about the purple worm was so I could point out that Big T is already 50' tall and 70' long. So I could read your post in two ways and you are free to say which is true or if I'm way off. 1. That he would be able to reach up 50' to 55' at most giving him a total vert reach of 100' to 105' adding in how tall he is. Of course you could have meant that he could not reach anything above head height, but that would make sense because he already, from your point of view have 20' mêlée reach on his attack. My view of using the PHB 128' vert reach being that it is only 23' off yours would not be that far of a stretch. And it is not enough to fight about. Even with his 70' reach and mêlée attack a wizard in his threated space who cast fly (AoO) and then fly up 60' (AoO) would still be in trouble on Big T's next turn. Luckily he doesn't have combat ref. I have already proved that it would be possible for him to get to you first round. Congratulation on graduating. Not everyone has the willpower to make it through school.
Aryxbez 06-18-07, 09:38 AM	I have been liking this thread, since it seems mostly everyone has managed to argue without flaming anybody and such. Also in my opinion it can also depend on the DM's Campaign, as some might make him stronger and what not. I know in my campaign the knowledge to slay the tarrasque has been lost. That knowledge being a certain coding of the Wish spell. Not because I said so, but since my campaign goes in a series, and a long time ago everyone who knew it's knowledge of to slay it were killed. I think it was due to the big villain in the game controlled the tarrasque or something like that. It was a long time ago, so I am not totally sure. Another thing, I don't think vertical reach matters at all if it states weapon reach is what determines how far you can hit something. Remember, D&D is not always totally realistic. Seeing how if someone realistically casted Reverse gravity, it would pretty much mean we would all be flown off the earth. So in conclusion, I think the Tarrasque might not be worth his CR 20, but neither do I think he is a wimp. As not everyone has omnipresent knowledge of this creature. Neither will everyone spend half their character levels/lives devoted to slaying this beast.
dknight100 06-18-07, 06:03 PM	Just some points: 1) The tarrasque isnt nearly as stupid as everyone who claims it is stupid is. Many of the animals with int 2 in the MM are known in real life to utilise tools. The tarrasque is smarter than them. Not only smarter, but has had an extremely lengthy time to learn. Learning doesn't require particularly high levels of intelligence or wisdom either - pavlov's dog anyone? Given that the tarrasque is actually smarter than a chimpanzee, it is highly likely it would know to chuck something at stuff it can't bite. Hell, it even has clawed hands, so its pretty likely it can grab and throw with them. Even with -4 for an improvised weapon, and assuming we don't replace those six toughness feats with powerful throw, even though they're an utter waste of space, the tarrasque stands a very high chance of hitting a wizard with a house, and then adding his str bonus to that damage, given its a thrown weapon. Wizard + TPH (tarrasque propelled house) = splat. Even if you made it a standard action for the tarrasque to pick up said house, the tarrasque wouldnt care, it has the hp, spell immunities, and spell resists to just not care. 2) IIRC, isn't Mr T immune to ability damage (my MM is back at the apartment)? If yes, then all the "drain his x with y" plans don't work. 3) Someone mentioned blind. IIRC, he has blindsense, ergo could care less. Plus, a 9th level caster is most likely unable to actually affect him with blind, even if he fills that spell level's slots entirely with blind, and blows lots of cash on blind scrolls. 4) A lot have people have been forgetting his carapace. Always check when you state: and blast him with x spell. If it is a cone, line, AoE and several other types, he is immune, and might just get you with it instead. 5) Everyone states fly, and about 5 other buffs. Note that these buffs have DURATIONS. Fly in particular, on a 9-12 level caster does not last particularly long. So the whole "blow all your cash on scroll z, buff with fly and x y z buffs, thoroughly douse Mr T with spell" plan has a very limited time. Basically, the wizard has to overcome the tarrasques rather high SR within that fly duration, and this is pretending that the tarrasque couldnt throw anything at the wizard. Because the moment the Mr T rushes, that wizard isnt getting away on foot. 6) Almost all of the Easy Mr T kill solutions, ignoring all the other problems, vastly exceed the wealth per level guidelines. Providing your party with massive amounts more loot than they should possibly be able to get their mittens on a that level is of course, going to make Mr T easier. So would making each of your players into Superman, but guess what, they're both outside the rules you're supposed to 'easily' be defeating the tarrasque with. 7) Someone had an illusion plan, and someone else (perhaps it was the same person) claimed that the tarrasque would not run through a wall because he would not consider it edible. A counterpoint: a wall, to a tarrasque, is not something that halts him. he doesnt even have to disbelieve your illusion (though he does have a good will save) because even if he felt it was a real tree, or bit wall, the Tarrasque is entirely accustomed to smashing it before his massive str. 8) Back to spamming spells at him. The probability calculation for the likeliness that Mr T will fail a save has the fundamental flaw that when it comes to the roll, he is not actually any less likely to fail. Its like how a d10 averages to what, 6 isnt it. This is entirely likely by probability, but who has a fighter who at level ten has a base 60 hp. 9) the knowledge thing, for justifying that your wizard would know what to come at him with. Its been pointed out: it would be intensely difficult for a 20th level character with maxed knowledge skills to research the tarrasque. The roll would simply be impossible for a 9-12th. Not to mention he only pops up for a few days every few hundred years. You would need a high level bard to stand a remote chance of having heard of the tarrasque. 10) What wizard, at 10th level or so, just happens to have stocked up on Mr T potentially stand a chance at killing gear? Especially given pt 9. So basically, if we account for all these points, and correct northern bear's statement accordingly: If you ignore half of his abilities, specially tailor a party of wizards with gear that far exceeds guidelines and logic, pretend that all buffs that they cast are infinite in duration, and pretend that probability is a definite thing that actually makes him likely to fail his Nth roll, then the Tarrasque is a wimp
Ace_of_time 06-18-07, 07:37 PM	Can you score a critical hit with a grapple check made to damage your opponent? No. Despite its similarity, a grapple check is not an attack roll, and thus can’t score a critical hit (nor does it automatically succeed on a natural 20 or fail on a natural 1).[/I] This is for the people that don't know way vert reach is important. Vert reach is the highest a creature can strench and still grab somthing. Although you have to make a melee touch attack it is not an attack. A dm could rule that the Big T's head stops 20' under his verti reach, But this is not need. To me vert reach would includ his/her melee reach because it is the monster extending it's body as far as possible to reach something.
Alpha_Moose 06-18-07, 08:31 PM	Just some points: 1) The tarrasque isnt nearly as stupid as everyone who claims it is stupid is. The problem then is that some people don't acknowledge that any adventurer would be smarter. Also, it mentions in the monster entry that he attacks with claws, teeth, horns, and tail. Now it could learn to use a weapon, maybe. But throwing a tree at an invisible enemy would be like me trying to hit a fly with a rock without looking at it. 2) IIRC, isn't Mr T immune to ability damage (my MM is back at the apartment)? If yes, then all the "drain his x with y" plans don't work. Ability damage and ability drain are two different things. 3) Someone mentioned blind. IIRC, he has blindsense, ergo could care less. Plus, a 9th level caster is most likely unable to actually affect him with blind, even if he fills that spell level's slots entirely with blind, and blows lots of cash on blind scrolls. He does not have blindsense. I know that the 9th level character is extreme, but a group of four 15th level characters could easily afford and have all of these things, and therefore easily beat the Tarrasque. 4) A lot have people have been forgetting his carapace. Always check when you state: and blast him with x spell. If it is a cone, line, AoE and several other types, he is immune, and might just get you with it instead. There was a mistake on that, but everything else was a targeted spell. Why are we using area effects against one creature anyways? 5) Everyone states fly, and about 5 other buffs. Note that these buffs have DURATIONS. Fly in particular, on a 9-12 level caster does not last particularly long. So the whole "blow all your cash on scroll z, buff with fly and x y z buffs, thoroughly douse Mr T with spell" plan has a very limited time. Basically, the wizard has to overcome the tarrasques rather high SR within that fly duration, and this is pretending that the tarrasque couldnt throw anything at the wizard. Because the moment the Mr T rushes, that wizard isnt getting away on foot. If I remember, there were 3 buffs mentioned, Fly, Invisibility and Assay Resistance. Fly would last for 10 minutes for a 10th level character (60 rounds), same with Invisibility. Assay Resistance I think was 10 rounds. Assay Resistance however lets the spellcaster go past his resistance pretty easily, so all they have to do is wait for the saves. 6) Almost all of the Easy Mr T kill solutions, ignoring all the other problems, vastly exceed the wealth per level guidelines. Providing your party with massive amounts more loot than they should possibly be able to get their mittens on a that level is of course, going to make Mr T easier. So would making each of your players into Superman, but guess what, they're both outside the rules you're supposed to 'easily' be defeating the tarrasque with. Ok, so a 9th level character can't do it. What about a 15th level character? Still would prove that CR 20 is too much. 7) Someone had an illusion plan, and someone else (perhaps it was the same person) claimed that the tarrasque would not run through a wall because he would not consider it edible. A counterpoint: a wall, to a tarrasque, is not something that halts him. he doesnt even have to disbelieve your illusion (though he does have a good will save) because even if he felt it was a real tree, or bit wall, the Tarrasque is entirely accustomed to smashing it before his massive str. Yes, he could run right though it. I could run though a bunch of bushes, but not to chase after a fly I can't see. Now if it started throwing fire at me I could understand, but I'd first run away rather than try and find it. I could just find food somewhere else. 8) Back to spamming spells at him. The probability calculation for the likeliness that Mr T will fail a save has the fundamental flaw that when it comes to the roll, he is not actually any less likely to fail. Its like how a d10 averages to what, 6 isnt it. This is entirely likely by probability, but who has a fighter who at level ten has a base 60 hp. For one roll you are right. But after so many rolls the theoretical probability starts to match the experimental probability. A wand has 50 charges. I'm pretty sure that the Tarrasque could fail before then. 9) the knowledge thing, for justifying that your wizard would know what to come at him with. Its been pointed out: it would be intensely difficult for a 20th level character with maxed knowledge skills to research the tarrasque. The roll would simply be impossible for a 9-12th. Not to mention he only pops up for a few days every few hundred years. You would need a high level bard to stand a remote chance of having heard of the tarrasque. I remember another Wizards article that talked about this. The basic point was that for some reason if a character is bigger it's harder to learn about it. Your character can know everything about every random butterfly it sees, but that big thing over there might be a whale, or maybe a bear. He can't know for sure until he kills some more monsters. I've also tried to point out that this tactic would work against any creature that couldn't fly and didn't have a ranged attack. So after 3 seconds of looking at the Tarrasque why wouldn't the character think of it, especially if he had used a similar tactic against a similar creature. Maybe he fought a Basilisk and did the same thing. The tactic would work against that creature too. 10) What wizard, at 10th level or so, just happens to have stocked up on Mr T potentially stand a chance at killing gear? Especially given pt 9. So your characters don't have gear that works against a large amount of creatures? None of the gear mentioned is that weird or obscure. A wand of Blindness/Deafness, some scrolls of Feeblemind, and an item that increases their main spellcasting ability. So a 10th level character might not be able to afford all that by themselves. What about a whole party, or a 15th level character? So basically, if we account for all these points, and correct northern bear's statement accordingly: If you ignore half of his abilities, specially tailor a party of wizards with gear that far exceeds guidelines and logic, pretend that all buffs that they cast are infinite in duration, and pretend that probability is a definite thing that actually makes him likely to fail his Nth roll, then the Tarrasque is a wimp Um, no. What he said was that a group of people who are half prepared for any big dumb monster could defeat the Tarrasque. Yes being prepared for a monster should make it weaker, but not this much weaker. And a party of 15th level could easily beat the Tarrasque without being prepared for it. The only thing is that this is assuming that these characters are prepared for combat in general.
dknight100 06-18-07, 09:33 PM	In my oppinion, the Tarrasque should have a challenge rating of around 10 or 11. - Northern Bear Ill give him credit, he does revise this to 14-16 iirc. but that was just why i was arguing regarding a middle to low level party, as stated by Northern Bear - seeing as he said that the tarrasque is a wimp and could be defeated with some preparation and great ease by a middle to low level party, while i consider 15 to be in the high level party bracket. For re-evaluating my statements regarding a 15-16th level party, as you suggest Alpha-moose, we can look at what a cr rating is supposed to represent. A monster 4-5 CR's higher than the party level should be a significant challenge, which would expend a considerable amount of their resources. I dont have my books on me, as i would appear odd turning up to my work with my dmg, mm and phb (though the boss requested i bought in my wii today), but surely you would agree tens of thousands of gold in scrolls and wands, not to mention the requisite wish, is quite a significant reduction of party resources. So I definitely reckon that with enough prep, a 15-16 party could indeed bring down Mr T, but it would be valid for his current CR. At best, i would bring his CR down to 18 or 19. Once again, because i dont have my books, what is the duration of improved invis? because if they use normal invis, then the wizard most likely gets eaten after the first spell. I agree with your point that tactics similar to how you suggest beating Mr T would most likely be employed by the party mage approximately 3 rounds after seeing the beast. i.e. the time it took him to buff up :D but working off a similar idea, that without the knowledge check he couldnt know precisely what would work on Mr T. Surely he would proceed process of elimination, would stands a 30% chance of potentially killing the mage from a carapace reflect for each incorrect type - given that Carapace reflects several types of spells. Also, the SR, even lowered via Assay (which i feel is entirely justified in saying would be cast at Mr T without even knowing he has big resist), could potentially result in a false elimination of an effective spell (if the wizard was proceed via process of elimination). Regarding the intelligence point, i agree that any adventurer would be smarter. I'd have to have int 1 to disagree there, but that an adventurer would be smarter wasnt my point there, i just meant that he's not so dumb he wouldnt attempt to use some form of tactic for reaching something he cant hit with melee attacks, which many people seem to claim he wouldnt. Also, for people who have their books on them, - regarding the ability damage mistake i made - which one is permaneant? and secondly, does the wish have to be used when he would normally be dead, ie permaneant ability damage to int or wis or con down to 0 or dead via hp reduction? Because if it has to be done when he is normally dead, then temporary damage wouldnt cut the mustard, and if it can be done whenever, then his cr should be really low because you just need a wish scroll. As for the Fight Vs Flight suggestion, i think we kind of have to leave it out of the argument. I can see where your coming from, he can and does eat everything, why would he bother attacking an invisible wizard when he could just walk the other way. But for the sake of the game, and also that i've seen my dog chase mosquitoes - he doesn't have to, he could just shake them off and walk away, such as inside where we try not to have mosquitoes, i think we should assume that he tries. Even if he doesnt eat the wizard perhaps he attempts to eat someone else. I'm sure having your fighter and few other party members digested constitutes a significant cost to party resources. ::EDIT:: Regarding the difficulty of the knowledge check - i agree that the knowledge check would probably be good if the DC wasnt correlated to the number of HD a creature has, and that something tied to its CR would likely be a more appropriate way of guaging the skill. I mean, assuming you knew nothing of either initially, it is way easier to learn all about a balor than it is to learn all about Mr T. Sure there is only one Mr T and plenty of balors, but i think it remains a valid example. But for the purpose of the discussion here, i think we should take RAW, and i would prefer CORE too, at least 3.5 Ed WotC books only, as CORE and RAW are what he was designed for, and we all know WotC powerslide at least on par with an experienced mario cart player. In these, its by HD. ::EDIT:: Yet another edit. I also agree that he couldnt throw a weapon precisely at an invisible target. I do consider throwing stuff to be something he would be capable of, plenty of examples of animals throwing things around intentionally (classic example would be monkeys, chimps etc throwing fecal matter, though i cant recally why, while a closer example would be my dog throwing stuff with his mouth to play catch with himself (he isnt accurate, but he also doesnt have hands. though he can manage a direction in general). But he does have very high listen, very high spot, and scent (doesnt he?), which he could use to get the general location an enemy is in. he would only have to narrow it down to ~125 cubic metre area (sorry about the measurement, I'm a kiwi) to stand a reasonable chance of hitting them with the sort of thing he can pick up. i.e. a small house/really huge boulder etc. He couldnt do it every round, as it would be a standard action to grab his improvised projectile of choice, but he could do it every other round (assuming a supply of stuff to throw, but i would consider big chunks of ground to be a valid improvised projectile). During the rounds that he doesnt through, or just in the wizards turn, he could move around, to try and throw the Tarrasque off in his aim. I believe that the Tarrasque would be capable of readying an action - i have seen my dog start search for a fly/mosquito he's chasing after he losign track. It would have to be a simple clause, but with that listen modifier, or spot (if the spell has some sort of viiisbile effect at its point of origin, but this is a fairly moot) it could be acceptable to ready an action for "i throw this rock in the direction i next hear chanting from". Yes, this ready action could be flawed - the next priest to start praying before the wizard cast would recieve a faceful of house instead of divine magic from his deity, but its a valid tactic to consider. ::EDIT:: Jeez, 3 edits (which are all tagged at the end of my post, i dont edit the original text). Anyways, i just i should clarify 'party resources' when using it to gauge a challenge to the party in terms of CR. A parties resources are not its total wealth, it is a portion of its resources on hand, and includes things like caster spells per day etc - but it is not their total wealth. Thus, less 20% of a 15th level parties total wealth as per the guidelines could possibly afford all the items required to stand a moderate chance at bringing down the Tarrasque, but thats not what WotC mean when they say a moderate challenge should take x% percent of a parties resources. or else by the CR ratings, fighting 4 ECL 20 encounters should turn a level 20 party into paupers, but it doesnt, and not just because ECL 20 encounter comes with nice money on it.
Alpha_Moose 06-18-07, 10:15 PM	One thing you have to consider about using a Wish to kill him is that it can be circumvented by using Baleful Polymorph (a 5th level spell). Baleful Polymorph makes creatures loose all Ex, Su, and Spell-like abilities, and the Tarrasque's regeneration is Ex. That includes the Wish clause. After you turn him into a toad or whatever he can be easily killed without high level magic.
WhiteRaven810 06-18-07, 10:27 PM	Because the Tarrasque is essientally a 20th level Fighter. Yea they're strong until you compare them to a 20th level Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.
dknight100 06-18-07, 10:33 PM	yea, good point re baleful polymorph. You'd need to be incorporeal with ghost touch gauntlets, or the worlds toughest caster ever to pull it off though - unless you did it once he was incapacitated, as baleful doesnt have much in the way of range at the moment. I guess a big point to this would be that even with assay, he still has considerable spell resistance. Given that when a caster's spell fails from SR, all their character knows is that the spell did not work, then the false negative i mentioned in the process of elimination could happen for baleful as well. I mean, if you ran up to something, cast a spell that normally works, after having lowered the targets spell resist, i can understand a high level wizard trying a few more times (if they have scrolls or a wand of baleful poly), but assuming they did not have innate knowledge of the tarrasque, surely they might want to try revise their tactics? Even though we as a player know that baleful poly would be the most effective way so far, thats because we also have seen its stats and powers. I think a distinct part of the real difficulty of the tarrasque would be that it has all these ways to resist damage, and from how rare it is (only creature of its kind, only appear once for a few days every few hundred years, and the HD pushing up the know DC). To me, this means figuring out how to kill it would be a quest in itself. That would actually be quite a good way to have it in the campaign - through it at them at level 16 say, maybe 17. They bring it down, but it comes back, again and again, till they can actually beat it. Sorry my points are pretty vague, and half involve me asking you to check facts... no books atm, etc ::EDIT:: Im an editing machine. I actually think the requirement of a wish to kill him (without getting baleful on him) is kind of silly. I mean, and what point is the wizard going to try wish (assuming he doesnt know he needs to). He might say "oh god, i wish you would stay dead this time" but i cant picture him actually trying to cast wish to kill it. they should make it something else, such as complete dismemberment - if you managed to bring one of his stats to 0, he would take a fair while to be really back in the battle, giving say, a town enough time to cut him up, bury each bit seperately with a cleric or something stoneshaping rocks to encase each limb, equivalent of burying each bit in a huge granite slab. It would even be kinda funny to make the Tarrasque the next 'BBEG attempts to collect it all' story arc - have the end game baddie assembling the Tarrasque to have the ultimate warmachine/decoy
Alpha_Moose 06-18-07, 10:51 PM	yea, good point re baleful polymorph. You'd need to be incorporeal with ghost touch gauntlets, or the worlds toughest caster ever to pull it off though - unless you did it once he was incapacitated, as baleful doesnt have much in the way of range at the moment. Not really, the Tarrasque has a 20ft reach and Baleful Polymorph's range is 25ft+5/2 levels. So the caster could easily reach him without being threatened. I guess a big point to this would be that even with assay, he still has considerable spell resistance. Given that when a caster's spell fails from SR, all their character knows is that the spell did not work, then the false negative i mentioned in the process of elimination could happen for baleful as well. I mean, if you ran up to something, cast a spell that normally works, after having lowered the targets spell resist, i can understand a high level wizard trying a few more times (if they have scrolls or a wand of baleful poly), but assuming they did not have innate knowledge of the tarrasque, surely they might want to try revise their tactics? Even though we as a player know that baleful poly would be the most effective way so far, thats because we also have seen its stats and powers. I think a distinct part of the real difficulty of the tarrasque would be that it has all these ways to resist damage, and from how rare it is (only creature of its kind, only appear once for a few days every few hundred years, and the HD pushing up the know DC). To me, this means figuring out how to kill it would be a quest in itself. That would actually be quite a good way to have it in the campaign - through it at them at level 16 say, maybe 17. They bring it down, but it comes back, again and again, till they can actually beat it. The thing about the Tarrasque is that it just has big numbers and big defenses. The biggest thing you need to take it down is just time. He doesn't have that many tactical options, especially against higher level characters. Sorry my points are pretty vague, and half involve me asking you to check facts... no books atm, etc The SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) contains most everything you need. It's what I've been using this whole time. I think that there are others, but I mostly use that one. ::EDIT:: Im an editing machine. I actually think the requirement of a wish to kill him (without getting baleful on him) is kind of silly. I mean, and what point is the wizard going to try wish (assuming he doesnt know he needs to). He might say "oh god, i wish you would stay dead this time" but i cant picture him actually trying to cast wish to kill it. they should make it something else, such as complete dismemberment - if you managed to bring one of his stats to 0, he would take a fair while to be really back in the battle, giving say, a town enough time to cut him up, bury each bit seperately with a cleric or something stoneshaping rocks to encase each limb, equivalent of burying each bit in a huge granite slab. It would even be kinda funny to make the Tarrasque the next 'BBEG attempts to collect it all' story arc - have the end game baddie assembling the Tarrasque to have the ultimate warmachine/decoy You know what's really stupid about the Wish? A 20th level Wizard actually loses XP from killing the Tarrasque. He doesn't gain enough of an XP award to counter the amount he needs to use the Wish.
dknight100 06-18-07, 11:03 PM	you know alpha-moose, i think we overall agree here. i mean, i reckon that its possible for the tarrasque to scone the wizard with a house, even stand a good chance vs an invisible one, and the short range of baleful polymorph would make it considerable easier for the tarrasque to pinpoint the wizards location, as at 15th level he would be 60ft away to baleful polymorph. Since the tarrasque would get to likely get to act before the wizard next moves, he would stand a good chance of getting to house the wizard. Thanks to his high initiative, he might even get to house the wizard before the wizard gets to baleful polymorph him. Though frankly, if i came up against a huge freakin monster, and could cast baleful polymorph, i would probably open with it. So we have minor points of different, but overall, would you agree that at approximately 15th level, a party would have to expend a 'considerable' amount of their resources in order to kill the tarrasque?
Vanigo 06-18-07, 11:53 PM	The reach weapon the only thing I can say is that is how my mind works some times and ether way it still comes out to the same thing for small and med....unless you treat vertical reach differently from horizontal reach. Yes I was talking about about the Axe beak and There is some confusion. I said before that if it had unusual body, like with no arms that I would still say they are quadruped.No you didn't; you said two legs = biped, and anything else is a quadruped. However, changing your mind is allowed. In that case, however, I'd like to point out that Big T's stance is dramatically different from that of other quote-unquote "bipeds," and should probably qualify for the same exception. The space and reach commit before about the purple worm was so I could point out that Big T is already 50' tall and 70' long. So I could read your post in two ways and you are free to say which is true or if I'm way off. 1. That he would be able to reach up 50' to 55' at most giving him a total vert reach of 100' to 105' adding in how tall he is. Of course you could have meant that he could not reach anything above head height, but that would make sense because he already, from your point of view have 20' mêlée reach on his attack.Oh, I missed the bit in the MM where it gives his height and length; I was working on the assumption that his body (not counting the tail) was about 30' long so that he'd fit in his space. My mistake; I'll have to revise my calculations. That'd make him about 66% bigger, so... about 83 feet off the ground. That's off the ground, not above his head. You are right, however, that one round of going straight up with fly won't get you to safety - especially since you need perfect maneuverability to go straight up at full speed, and fly only gives you good maneuverability. Oh, and you still haven't said anything about how you'd handle attacking someone below you.
dman11235 06-19-07, 12:01 AM	Every one has been forgetting about the rest of the party. And I'm not even going to say "why aren't they eaten." My point is: why not cast miracle? No XP cost for miracle!
dknight100 06-19-07, 12:15 AM	I know i havent been mentioning the rest of the party, unless they're all casters too, is because the best thing a melee character should be able to do at medium to low levels, or at level 15 as we have been currently dicussing, is get eaten to buy someone else time. I like fighters really, but the tarrasque is designed to not take damage from most things, and he's best at not taking damage from weapons. His large DR is only overcome by 'epic' which is +6 and then he regens 40 per round, and has a large number of hit dice. The tarrasque is also designed around givign a good mauling to things, and that he certainly can. A 15th level fighter typically has pretty good hp, but his damage will quickly match it, and his attack bonus overcomes pretty much anything. Not to mention he can grapple you automatically, because of his enormous size. Personally, i think he would be cooler if he wasnt all but invulnrable to weapons. It would make him easier sure, but at least the melee'er's turns wouldnt consist of "I ready an action to twiddle my thumbs when someone else does something useful". Sure, in a proper setting the warrior might be trying to evacuate people and so forth. I'm sure he would feel a little more epic if he got to contribute in a fighting sense.
dman11235 06-19-07, 01:07 AM	That's not what I was saying. I was saying that you generally have a cleric in your party, and this is a quote from the SRD: "The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead." Just pointing out to Alpha Moose that you need not lose XP for killing the Tarrasque. Also, there are things that the fighter can do that is helpful. At level 20, I see ACs upward of 60. If the fighter has an AC of somewhere around 65, then he can take a full defensive action, and Mr. T won't be able to hit him very easily, in other words, the fight is holding him of while the spellcasters go to town (figuratively). With proper buffs and de-buffs, this is intirely possible, and probable. But it does hinge on a couple of things. One, you are high level. Two, you are prepared. But behold! The battle with the Tarrasque as realistic (within the confines of the game) is easy! At the levels at which it should be easy acording to his CR!
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 02:37 AM	Not really, the Tarrasque has a 20ft reach and Baleful Polymorph's range is 25ft+5/2 levels. So the caster could easily reach him without being threatened. The thing about the Tarrasque is that it just has big numbers and big defenses. The biggest thing you need to take it down is just time. He doesn't have that many tactical options, especially against higher level characters. The SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) contains most everything you need. It's what I've been using this whole time. I think that there are others, but I mostly use that one. You know what's really stupid about the Wish? A 20th level Wizard actually loses XP from killing the Tarrasque. He doesn't gain enough of an XP award to counter the amount he needs to use the Wish. So you are a spell caster. Assuming you are far away you move up and cast spell misses SR. Next turn the Big T goes moves up. Assuming you stop at max range 75' Big T rush 150 ' bite swallow whole. The problem is no spell caster is going to risk getting that close with those chances of failure. base spell per day is 4 for 2oth level. that's only 5 to 6 chances without items. Why not use great inv on fighters with weapons that have transforming and wounding on them. Keep buffing them until you can cast wish. Increase their size would help from getting eaten. Change wounding. I just look it up. When did they change wounding, It used to be no healing.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-19-07, 04:22 AM	... SRD: "The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead." ... Also, there are things that the fighter can do that is helpful. At level 20, I see ACs upward of 60. ... One, you are high level. Two, you are prepared. But behold! The battle with the Tarrasque as realistic (within the confines of the game) is easy! At the levels at which it should be easy acording to his CR! Ahh good point, you can turn the big T to stone, but once it's stone it makes it impossible to kill it. And a break enchantment turns it loose again (which could be why it "slept" for 1,000 years as somone was commenting about) Second part, still another point, CR 20 vs party of 20 = 1 of 4 fights per day. *** In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. DC 58 to learn he is not a dragon. DC 63 to learn he can rush you. DC 68 to learn his claws are sharp. DC 73 to learn he has scent. DC 78 to learn no metal or enchantment can cut his skin any better than a rusty spork. DC 83 to learn spells reflect off his armor. DC 88 to learn he is immune to ability damage. DC 93 to learn he has regeneration. DC 98 to learn you have to cast wish to kill him. DC 103 to learn wish only works when he is in chunks and not moving. Beat 103, then comment about knowing to use wish. Else this thing is going to keep poping up and smacking you around. *** Again, the fighter is dead, the rouge ran away, the spelltheif is trying to SA the wizard to fly away, the paladin is stuck on top of a mountain where the big T toss him and his dead griffen. Just because you attach a half dozen buffs, ignore the fact people don't buy 14 scrolls of balful polymorph, metagame knowing EVERY fact about the monster don't mean it's weak and helpless.
northern_bear 06-19-07, 05:02 AM	DC 58 to learn he is not a dragon. DC 63 to learn he can rush you. DC 68 to learn his claws are sharp. DC 73 to learn he has scent. DC 78 to learn no metal or enchantment can cut his skin any better than a rusty spork. DC 83 to learn spells reflect off his armor. DC 88 to learn he is immune to ability damage. DC 93 to learn he has regeneration. DC 98 to learn you have to cast wish to kill him. DC 103 to learn wish only works when he is in chunks and not moving. Allow me to rephrase: DC 58 to learn something that is obvious as soon as you see him. DC 63 to learn something that is obvious as soon as you see him. DC 68 to learn something that is obvious as soon as you see him. DC 73 to learn a fact that can safely be assumed. DC 78 to learn something you will realise after one or two round of attacks. DC 83 to learn something that will be obvious the first time you cast as spell. DC 88 to learn something that is unlikely to come up. DC 93 ot learn something that will be obvious after several rounds of combat. So, by suceeding at a knowledge check vs DC 93 allows a character to "know" stuff that any idiot should be able to quickly figure out.
dknight100 06-19-07, 06:13 AM	Allow me to rephrase: So, by suceeding at a knowledge check vs DC 93 allows a character to "know" stuff that any idiot should be able to quickly figure out. Northern bear, you should really let alpha moose do the talking, he makes much more convincing points. Lost's example of the knowledge isn't too great, but things such as spell reflect, consider that such a wide variety of stuff can be reflected or negated outright, without even encountering a SR check. Because if his carapace negates a spell, all you know if that it didnt work, and if his SR passed, which as we have discussed, until the 6th or so cast of something that can hit him (which is a touch spell or a specifically targeted spell only) it is unlikely he will fail, then all you know is that it did not work. Similarly, if he is simply immune to a spell or passes his actual save, all the caster will know is that it did not work. We can see that thanks to this a player coming at the T without any prior knowledge that he possesses 4 very effective forms of negating spells (Carapace, SR, Immunities, High Saves), and all 4 forms, should they work, which they most likely do, will all provide the same 'feedback' to the player. Thus, it would take considerably more experimentation that he would likely live for for the wizard to determine what spells are effective, and thats assuming the player doesnt get a false negative - that is, assume a spell wouldnt work when really it just managed to not beat his high SR or his high saves. Furthermore, all of your "mid to low level" characters have been vastly in excess of wealth per level guidelines, and have all somehow stacked 100% of that wealth (which even if it wasnt completely over the guidelines, is supposed to be gained over their 9-12 levels, not instantly when they see the tarrasque) into gear that is all designed to stand a chance at effecting a tarrasque, and further more they all know what is actually required to kill it Wish, Miracle, or death during baleful polymorph. Alpha Moose rightly made the point that a 15th level group could take the T, but they should be able to, and the lengths that they would have to go to fit within the suggestion for a considerable challenge of 4 or so CR's above the average party level. ::EDIT:: I always think of things just after i hit post. Anyways, I've looked up baleful polymorph, and i agree with alpha it would be the best way to bring him down, but it does have some shortcomings - it takes a fort save and a will save fail for it to be completely negated, and with +38 fort and +20 will he stands a fairly good chance to pass, and thats after it goes past his SR. Also, you would want to make sure your wizard was 70' above the tarrasque, because if he was on the horizontal plane, then fly's 60' move wouldnt keep him out of T rush range. However, as i have mentioned, even flying and improved invisible, the tarrasque would still be capable of throwing collosol improvised thrown weapons at the mage, in his general area, and the miss chance wouldnt be too bad considering the T could roughly determine the mages position from listen and scent. The T would certainly have a higher chance of hitting the mage than the mage of baleful polymorphing the T. Not to mention that knowing to use wish or miracle to kill it, in the event of not using baleful polymorph, would be pretty impossible to know, given there is only 1 Terrasque, and obviously noone has killed him before.
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 06:41 AM	...unless you treat vertical reach differently from horizontal reach. No you didn't; you said two legs = biped, and anything else is a quadruped. However, changing your mind is allowed. In that case, however, I'd like to point out that Big T's stance is dramatically different from that of other quote-unquote "bipeds," and should probably qualify for the same exception. Oh, I missed the bit in the MM where it gives his height and length; I was working on the assumption that his body (not counting the tail) was about 30' long so that he'd fit in his space. My mistake; I'll have to revise my calculations. That'd make him about 66% bigger, so... about 83 feet off the ground. That's off the ground, not above his head. You are right, however, that one round of going straight up with fly won't get you to safety - especially since you need perfect maneuverability to go straight up at full speed, and fly only gives you good maneuverability. Oh, and you still haven't said anything about how you'd handle attacking someone below you. From Webster's on line biped One entry found for biped. Main Entry: bi·ped Pronunciation: 'bI-"ped Function: noun Etymology: Latin biped-, bipes, from bi- + ped-, pes foot -- more at FOOT : a two-footed animal - bi·ped·al /(")bI-'pe-d&l/ adjective - bi·ped·al·ly /-E/ adverb I meant that Biped meant two legs and was not talking about rules wise. Axebeak is a biped creature but I would consider it quadruped because of it's unusual body. Big T has Two legs and two arms and would be able to reach higher in than say a horse. It's easier for a DM to use the average vert reach then to use a calculation for each monster. A DM looks at a pic and decide whether it biped or not and uses the RAW as needed and it saves time in game to just use averages. Never really thought about down. On the ground it would be limited by the ground. unless your were on a ledge or the like and I would use mêlée reach. In the sky or things like water most would turn to which ever direction they needed to. Depending on Fly mobility. In which case down would be at your feet which ever direction facing at the time As I said space is on the map not how high it is.
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 07:30 AM	So you are a spell caster. Assuming you are far away you move up and cast spell misses SR. Next turn the Big T goes moves up. Assuming you stop at max range 75' Big T rush 150 ' bite swallow whole. The problem is no spell caster is going to risk getting that close with those chances of failure. base spell per day is 4 for 2oth level. that's only 5 to 6 chances without items. Why not use great inv on fighters with weapons that have transforming and wounding on them. Keep buffing them until you can cast wish. Increase their size would help from getting eaten. Change wounding. I just look it up. When did they change wounding, It used to be no healing. Change wounding to flesh-grinding and adding vanishing. The Fort save DC would be 20 at most so on average save would save. Then he could save on will or keep his abilities. The most you would get is 5 casting with out items. The best thing is for spell casters to use buffs and not make them selves targets. Are we wait for one's here because it will not happen soon and the minute you cast on he hill be looking for you. And that is only if he doesn't just eat you 1st round. You could always chain maxed combust spells by use of familiars with greater invis cast on them to deliver the touch attacks. That would work. 80 points of damage per spell and with four wizards. would be 320 points a round. And there is no save for half.
dknight100 06-19-07, 08:21 AM	Change wounding to flesh-grinding and adding vanishing. The Fort save DC would be 20 at most so on average save would save. Then he could save on will or keep his abilities. The most you would get is 5 casting with out items. The best thing is for spell casters to use buffs and not make them selves targets. Are we wait for one's here because it will not happen soon and the minute you cast on he hill be looking for you. And that is only if he doesn't just eat you 1st round. You could always chain maxed combust spells by use of familiars with greater invis cast on them to deliver the touch attacks. That would work. 80 points of damage per spell and with four wizards. would be 320 points a round. And there is no save for half. where is flesh-grinding from? could someone linked combust? im not familiar with the spell. but it does sound firey. which he is immune to.
northern_bear 06-19-07, 11:22 AM	Several people seem to be claiming that if a wizard's spell fails to affect the target, then all the wizard knows is that it didn't work. He doesn't know why it didn't work. What is the basis of this argument. I find nothing in the rules that either supports or contradicts this argument. In the absence of a ruling one way or another, I don't see why a wizard shouldn't have a decent idea of why his spell failed. I can imagine that he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between spell imunity, and spell resistance, because they are basically the same thing. Spell imunity is just an unbeatable form of spell resistance. But I think he should be able to tell the difference between a spell that had no effect because of spell imunity (or resistance), and a spell that was sucesfully saved against. With a reflex save, it's obvious. If a creature is imune to fireballs, or a fireball fails to beat his spell resistance, then you would see the fireball simply detonate around him with no visible effect. If he avoids the fireball because of a sucesful reflex save, then you would see him diving out of the way. The difference between a passed save, and spell resistance might be less visible if it is a fort or will save, but I can still imagine that the caster might be able to tell the difference. A creature who makes a sucesful fort save, might show some outward signs of his body strugling to throw off the assault. If the victim makes a sucesful will save, the caster might feel a momentary mental resistance from the subject, as the subject's mind fights off the caster's influence. Sure, the rules don't say this is what happens. But they also don't say it doesn't happen. And it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a caster can tell the difference between spell resistance, and a sucesful saving throw. Just like a fighter can tell the difference between a high natural armour class and high damage reduction.
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 12:04 PM	where is flesh-grinding from? could someone linked combust? im not familiar with the spell. but it does sound firey. which he is immune to. It is fire but you can use the feat that change energy type to acid. I always forget his fire immunity. It is from SC. Flesh grinding is one of the cool new abilities from the Magic item compendium. When you hit a live thing with the weapon you can let go and it will grind it's self into the creature for five round then it returns to you as if it had returning ability. Tranforming Overcome any DR after the first hit. Damage is dealt normally than the next round it overcoome that DR till you use it on someone else with DR.
Alpha_Moose 06-19-07, 02:08 PM	you know alpha-moose, i think we overall agree here. <snip> So we have minor points of different, but overall, would you agree that at approximately 15th level, a party would have to expend a 'considerable' amount of their resources in order to kill the tarrasque? I think that a single character would have to expend considerable sources to kill it, but for a party no. That's not what I was saying. I was saying that you generally have a cleric in your party, and this is a quote from the SRD: "The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead." Just pointing out to Alpha Moose that you need not lose XP for killing the Tarrasque. I still think that you have to use the XP part of Miracle. I mean it doesn't say for sure, but Miracle does mention that if there is something above the stuff mentioned it requires XP. Alpha Moose rightly made the point that a 15th level group could take the T, but they should be able to, and the lengths that they would have to go to fit within the suggestion for a considerable challenge of 4 or so CR's above the average party level. The thing here is that it doesn't present a challenge. All that is required to kill the Tarrasque is expending resources. There is little to no tactical challenge in trying to defeat it. It is like defeating the big boss in a video game. Once you know how to kill it all that is required is time and pressing the same key combo over and over. ::EDIT:: I always think of things just after i hit post. Anyways, I've looked up baleful polymorph, and i agree with alpha it would be the best way to bring him down, but it does have some shortcomings - it takes a fort save and a will save fail for it to be completely negated, and with +38 fort and +20 will he stands a fairly good chance to pass, and thats after it goes past his SR. Also, you would want to make sure your wizard was 70' above the tarrasque, because if he was on the horizontal plane, then fly's 60' move wouldnt keep him out of T rush range. Actually the Will save is only for it to retain its knowledge after 24 hours, so that's ignorable. You also have to remember that Baleful Polymorph would only be used after weakening down the Tarrasque via Feeblemind/Blindness&Deafness, which can both be afforded cheaply if using Item Creation feats. Of course, this isn't considering the Artificer.
dman11235 06-19-07, 02:25 PM	You don't have to use the XP for miracle, as it is in line with the affects of Wish for 5000 XP, and miracle is just better. You can infer the lack of cost from Wish and the "above" affects of miracle, and the fact that it doesn't list a cost for casting it to kill the Tarrasque. Your DM, however, can interperate it differently. EDIT: The thing about challenges is that they are challenges BECAUSE they require you to use resources. Do you mean that it isn't a challenge when you deffeat a Balor without taking a hit because you used wish until it died? The point of the Tarrasque is that you do expend resources to kill it. About 20% of your lv. 20 resources. That is what the CR means. In the DMG, it says that an encounter of CR equal to the party level should take about 1/5 of their resouces, and there should be about 4 per day. (not sure where, but it's in there) With the different ways to kill the Tarrasque that you all mentioned, have you looked at the % of party resorces they consume? That includes wealth, HP, spells, etc. And yes, you need to look at what the rest of the party is doing, you can't just say "The wizard flies around spamming spells" (even though a smart wizard would find another way to take it down, after many spells failed and the carapace reflected something, NOT spam flesh to stone until it gets through, the SR is too high to reliably over come without Assay resistance).
dknight100 06-19-07, 05:06 PM	I think that a single character would have to expend considerable sources to kill it, but for a party no. Once you get going in the fight, with something that keeps you out of harms way from the tarrasque, then it would just be pressing the same combo button over and over. personally, i think the tarrasque should be changed so that a party with no initial knowledge could actually stand a logical chance of determining how to defeat it. But from an investment, all the wizards spells for the day, and half a ton of scrolls would constitute a considerable drain on the party's resources. Because it would be difficult, not to mention financially crippling to fight a second or third similarly difficult fight for anyone below 20, and even some 20's, i think its CR rating is as correct as its going to be. The thing here is that it doesn't present a challenge. All that is required to kill the Tarrasque is expending resources. There is little to no tactical challenge in trying to defeat it. It is like defeating the big boss in a video game. Once you know how to kill it all that is required is time and pressing the same key combo over and over. As ive mentioned, actually knowing how to kill it would be quite difficult. Also, the tactical challenge in beating it would be bumped up more if the DM allowed the T to throw things at people. Not to mention the tactical challenge of having the rest of the party live - the wizard is already using a lot of spells, as would the other casters. Actually the Will save is only for it to retain its knowledge after 24 hours, so that's ignorable. The will save also keeps its supernatural powers & mental scores. I would consider it defeated once it failed its fort save, but it would be funny that you would have created an immortal intelligent (for an animal) rabbit. Still, that baleful polymorph has to get past its SR and its Fort save, which is its strongest save, before it will have any effect on the T. You also have to remember that Baleful Polymorph would only be used after weakening down the Tarrasque via Feeblemind/Blindness&Deafness, which can both be afforded cheaply if using Item Creation feats. You would need to massively bring down his fort save too - its 18 higher than his will. Once the feeblemind becomes useful, he's already defeat as far as my thinking is concerned. Also, blindness/deafness would not stop his saves. It would just make it flail wildly i assume.
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 06:01 PM	I think that a single character would have to expend considerable sources to kill it, but for a party no. I still think that you have to use the XP part of Miracle. I mean it doesn't say for sure, but Miracle does mention that if there is something above the stuff mentioned it requires XP. The thing here is that it doesn't present a challenge. All that is required to kill the Tarrasque is expending resources. There is little to no tactical challenge in trying to defeat it. It is like defeating the big boss in a video game. Once you know how to kill it all that is required is time and pressing the same key combo over and over. Actually the Will save is only for it to retain its knowledge after 24 hours, so that's ignorable. You also have to remember that Baleful Polymorph would only be used after weakening down the Tarrasque via Feeble mind/Blindness&Deafness, which can both be afforded cheaply if using Item Creation feats. Of course, this isn't considering the Artificer. How many 5th level spells do you plan on having? And there is still the same problem. SR then save then the spell would take effect. Blindness and deafness is a fort. It is not very likely he will miss these saves ether and still leave you open. Also every spell slot you put in Feeble mind is one less chance to cast Baleful polymorph. It like hitting golf balls at a brick wall and hoping that it will hit in just the right spot to bring down the whole wall. Still have a wizard who thinks he is unbeatable with fly and greater inv.
dknight100 06-19-07, 06:58 PM	Well, the wizard with fly and greater invis stands a good chance of not being hit by the T (once again, going with my throwing things theory, seeing as it has the int to do so). The fact that he would be trying to hit a medium (assuming human/elf, though the wizard could be small) invisible point in 3 dimension space, would be to a degree counteracted by scent and listen, and the fact that he could throw a house. You dont have to be quite as accurate when using a collosal shotgun. I'd say the Tarrasque would stand a greater chance to hit the wizard than the wizard would of baleful polymorphing the tarrasque, first the wizard must get past his SR, which would have a 15% chance of doing, or a 65% chance if you have the splatbook for Assay Resistance and he didnt resist that. Next, you have to get past his fort, which the wizard would have a 5% chance of doing so. The chance of both of these happening 0.75% without assay, or 3.25% with assay. Vs the chance of the tarrasque putting the house (which if it is assumed to be 16.4 feet on each face - 5m that is) into the correct 4414 cubic foot area that the wizard is in. ::EDIT:: For my calculation on the saves above, i assumed the wizard to be of 15th level and have 20 int. With 22 int he would have a 1.5% chance of baleful polymorphing the T, or 6.5% with assay. At 24 int, he would have 2.25% or 9.75% with assay. Also, has baleful been errata'd different, i think the SRD one is different from the one in my 3.5 phb? Lastly, if we go by Northern bear's claim that a 9-12th level character could do it (seeing as i mostly agree with alpha that a 15th level character could do it, our difference is one what consititutes considerable challenge), a 9th level character would have a 0.25% chance of affecting the T with any fort resistable spell or 1.75% if he had managed to use assay on it. I dont have the assay splat book, so i cant tell if the 9th would get to use it. From the 0.25%, swapped into likelyness the tarrasque will succeed his save (99.75%), we can see that after 4 minutes of combat (40 rounds of combat) the Tarrasque still has just over a 90% chance to have not failed his save yet. Overalll, in all likeliness, the 9th level characters fly and invis spells will run out before he manages to affect the tarrasque with a fort based spell, which most insta-death type spells are. Not to mention the cost involved in even doing this. If the wizard scribed scrolls (the cheapest way of getting that many spells), he would have to spend ~40 days scribing scrolls before the fight, just of baleful polymorph, and pay 1800XP abd 22,500GP, to stand a 10% chance of affecting the T after using every single scroll, which as i mentioned, would take 4 minutes.
dknight100 06-19-07, 07:59 PM	More on the 40 attempts. As i mentioned in an earlier post, when a spell is resisted thanks to his carapace, resisted thanks to his spell resistance, resisted thanks to his high saves, or resisted because he is immune to it, the caster recieves the same feedback, that it did not work. Without metagaming, it is massively illogical that a character would continue with an action after many failures, you just wouldnt. Repeating the same action expecting a different result, especially when all information indicates the same result, sounds like the definition for insanity. Once again, seperation of character from player people. We know because we have read the Monster Manual and know all the details on the tarrasque, that getting him with a baleful polymorph is possible, though very very unlikely (as per the calculations in my post above). However, no character in game could possibly know that baleful polymorph stands a miniscule chance of working.
dknight100 06-19-07, 08:12 PM	A level 15 caster for the record; after 4 minutes of casting baleful polymorph, there is a 74% the T wont have failed his saves yet, or 21.67% chance he wont have failed yet with Assay. For the 15th, he hits the 70% mark by the 9th round of combat (with assay), so in this case, perhaps he gets lucky by this point (though it is still quite unlikely to have failed by this point). Even with we say he gets lucky by the 9th (and knows he will have done it by the 9th), that is still 9 days of scribing baleful polymorph, 675XP and 8437.5GP invested. That is still a very very large investment. Note, assay reduces SR by 10 doesnt it? ::EDIT:: On knowing baleful polymorph works... To definitely know baleful polymorph works, we can assume it would have had to happen to the T before. If this was the case, and he is now a tarrasque again, we can assume someone has broken the enchantment. If the person broke the enchant, not knowing Mr Bunny was really the T, then its safe to assume he is a corpse, and good luck finding that corpse to speak with dead. If the person broke the enchant knowingly, we can assume he is either dead, or the BBEG and not going to tell you.
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 08:40 PM	OK listen carefully. Could cast spell vulnerability to drop his SR by 15. Then sphere of ultimate destruction. should take care of him.
dknight100 06-19-07, 09:12 PM	okay, so if that spell penetration lowers by 15, it affects my calculations, but not by enough for the example to be invalid. ::EDIT:: I can't find the ultimate destruction thingy, so either its splat, or ive missed the sarcasm. If its splat, post its 'target' and spell level field please. If you mean sphere of annihilation, then yes, that would destroy Mr T, its also an artifact with 20th Caster level.
dknight100 06-19-07, 09:44 PM	okay, so if that spell penetration lowers by 15, it affects my calculations, but not by enough for the example to be invalid. With my calculations revised: 9th level caster with +5 int bonus, would take 40 rounds to reach an 81.83% chance that the T still hasnt failed his saves. I believe this is because i have upped his int bonus, which pushes it in favour of the wizard even more. With the spell reduction it would take him 4 rounds to reduce the likeliness the T still hasnt failed a save to 78.07%, 60.59% by 8 rounds, and it finally sinks below 50 after 12 rounds of Baleful Spamming. For the 15th Level Caster, upped to +6 int: on any given roll, the T is 98.5% likely to pass. After 40 rounds, he has a 54.6% chance to still not have failed a save. WIth that spell penetration reduction by 15 (though i cant find this in SRD, could someone copy and paste it) it comes down to a 91% chance for the T to pass. After 8 rounds it is 47.02% likely to still not have failed its save.
dman11235 06-19-07, 10:26 PM	Sphere of Ultimate distruction is from CArc. (I don't know if that's the right abreviation for Complete Arcane) Also in the SC, I think. It is disintigrate in ball form that lasts for 1 round per level. It gets past the carapace as it is not a line, cone, or ray. It does allow a fort save for 5d6 instead of 2d6 per caster level and allows SR. Also, this Saturday I am going to play test the Tarrasque against the standard CR calculating party of one wizard, cleric, fighter, rogue at level 20 with the Elite array, and then again at level 22 against 2 T's. I hope that this experiment settles the debate. P.S. I will do it first with standard T and core only, and then again with the more logical feat selection (Get rid of toughness!!!) and splat books allowed.
dknight100 06-19-07, 10:39 PM	dont forget 9th-12th level, as Northern claims could easily defeat it, although i have shown it would require colossol amounts of money for merely some scrolls that would still not stand a definite chance of killing him. I dont know what level this Sphere of Ultimate Destruction is, but given that it allows a fort save and SR, then my calculations still stand.
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 11:09 PM	dont forget 9th-12th level, as Northern claims could easily defeat it, although i have shown it would require colossol amounts of money for merely some scrolls that would still not stand a definite chance of killing him. I dont know what level this Sphere of Ultimate Destruction is, but given that it allows a fort save and SR, then my calculations still stand. It is a 9th level spell so they would have to be at least 17th level. they could grab a few scrolls at low levels but I hate to think what mishap would happen on bad rolls.
dknight100 06-19-07, 11:34 PM	At 17th level, to be able to cast Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, as we've discussed you should be able to defeat him, he would be a moderate challenge. Seeing as he can stand a good chance at resisting the sphere, id say that sounds about right - each attempt to sphere him once you run out of prepared oned would cost 1912.5GP and 153XP (assuming your crafting scrolls). Also, if his fort save works, and he takes the reduced damage, his regen heals that all in his turn. By the time you could cast SoUD at him, you could determine it definitely had an affect - seeing as we're allowing splatbooks (at least for an example including SoUD) then you could spell penetrate him. With -15 to his SR, and a 17th Level caster, you would have to roll over 0 to beat his SR, which means its just his fort that counts. the save DC would be 25, which he has a 5% chance of failing (a 1). ::EDIT:: It amuses me that this thread has turned into: how a party of appropriate level PC's could beat the tarrasque. I do want to check my calculations a little, one little bit of the spreadsheet wants to be checked, but im fairly confident they'er not wrong.
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 11:54 PM	It last 1 round per level has a fly speed of 30'. When it comes to a creature it enters it's space and auto touches for damage. At 17th level that would 17 rounds at 34d6/5d6 each round. I think one spell should do it. SR for him would drop to like 18 instead of 32. At low levels a rogue with maxed UMB would be able to cast a scroll of this. Min caster level would still be 17th. It would be easy for the wizard in the party of 10th to keep SR down.
dman11235 06-20-07, 12:00 AM	Sorry, forgot to add that, level 9.
dman11235 06-20-07, 12:04 AM	There is a major problem with this spell against the Tarrasque: it does damage. Regen 40, and an average of 119 on a failed save (min CL). Sure it over comes the regen for the 1 in 20 chance of a failed save, but that's not likely to happen. So this spell does nothing.
dknight100 06-20-07, 12:08 AM	The UMD DC on a scroll of SoUD would be DC: 37. Even if that rogue had 14 cha (and many rogues i know tend to have average/dump cha as to be effective in combat they need str, dex, con, and then int for skills), then at the 'low' level of 10th his maxed UMD would be 13. 14 cha would make his total UMD 15, still short of possibly being able to cast SoUD scrolls. a 20 wouldnt even make it. The rogue would either have to pump his cha, or be higher level. at 12th he could do it on a natural 20. A bard would stand a better chance, but not a whole lot. Lets say he had 18 cha, then at 10th he could cast a SoUD scroll on a roll of 20. Lets say a bard is doing it, at 10th level, with 18 charisma, with scrolls of SoUD created by a 17th level caster (min for SoUD). In any given round, he would have a 98.25% chance of not doing anything to the Tarrasque, and thats with the spell resistance completely negated. After 40 rounds there is a 49.35% chance the bard has managed to disintegrate the T. Note also, he would have to BUY the scrolls at full price. Each one would cost 3825GP ::EDIT::My calculation above has factored in that in a given round, to disentegrate the T, that bard would need to suceed on his UMD, and the T fail his fort save (because 32 SR -15 = 17, and a SR check = 1d20 + CL. SoUD = CL 17 therefor, overcomes SR). If your just wondering about this bard USING the scroll, after 13 rounds there is a 51.33% chance the bard still hasn't used a scroll. ::EDIT OVER:: ::EXTRA EDIT:: oh wait, SoUD just does damage, not disintegrate? well thats worse, and they still need the wish scroll. This means that by 'disintegrate' the T, i mean damage for an amount of damage that it will take him 2 rounds to heal not 1. Plus, does that spell resistance reducer have a save itself?
Ace_of_time 06-20-07, 12:21 AM	Not a problem just use a summon elemental monolith (non fire one), or undead incop like Allip or Shadow. That plus trying to reduce fort through spells would give the spell better chance of rolling a one. Maybe even a few vortex of teeth. And that not including the other party members. Rogue/fighter/bar with his brillant energy/tranforming weapon with spring attack.
dman11235 06-20-07, 12:26 AM	Also remember that the Tarrasque is immune to death. Any effect that would kill the Tarrasque (Phantasmal Killer for example) instead does non-lethal damage equal to the Tarrasque's normal HP +10.
dknight100 06-20-07, 12:35 AM	Elemental Monolith? and that would be level... Plus, whats the item modifiers on brilliant/transforming? all of those require a base +1 weapon, so thats a pretty pricey weapon right there. Not to mention to not die super fast, all those meleer will require greater invis, and have to hope the tarrasque doesnt guess the right square with scent, which he can use to track what he cant see to a degree of accuracy. As for your undead. The Tarrasque is immune to the shadow's str damage, while you cant actually get an allip without a DM giving you one, i.e. setting you up to have an advantage. You could get a wraith, via the 8th level cleric spell Summon Greater Undead. But then you would force the T to make a DC 14 Fort save. i.e. roll a one. I dont need to repeat calculations to show how thats hardly even worth considering.
Ace_of_time 06-20-07, 12:36 AM	:confused: :confused: :confused: They spell does not kill instantly it deals damage till he reaches 0 then turns to ash. For the Big T I assume you would still need a wish to keep it dead but could make a scroll ahead of time. They are talking about spells like power word kill and the like. His entry says he still regens the spell on a failed save but I still think this is better then hoping for a one casting the poly spell. Besides the earth mon's + 40, 2 slams at a average 42 damage each should take care of regen each round.
dknight100 06-20-07, 12:43 AM	Depends. Are you meaning a high level party? If you mean a medium or low level party using this tactic then its actually worse than praying for the baleful polymorph, seeing as your rogue or bard has to roll a 20, then the tarrasque has to roll a 1. As ive shown, a level 10 bard with 18 charisma and max UMD would take 13 rounds to have had a 50% chance to have even gotten that sphere cast at all. from 15 onwards your party should actually be able to take the tarrasque, and from 17 your wizard can actually bust out SoUD himself, at this point, yes. however, your damage would still ahve to overcome his sheer regeneration and fort save.
dman11235 06-20-07, 12:45 AM	What? I do not know what you are saying. I was talking about spells that say "death", like power word kill, phantasmal killer, and any other death affect. I maintain that the easiest way to overcome SR and kill the T is with a high level beguiler (cloaked casting overcome SR) and Overwhelm (nonlethal damage = to current HP) with a miracle or wish on standby.
dman11235 06-20-07, 12:46 AM	And I will end this discussion on Saturday when I test the CR.
dknight100 06-20-07, 12:59 AM	More on using a wraith. It would have 14 rounds before it stands a 50% chance to have done con damage to the T. On average, it would do 4 con drain to him. It would need to do this 8.75 times. Even when on 1 con, the T's fort save is 27, he would still need a 1 to fail his fort save vs the wraits con drain.
dman11235 06-20-07, 01:08 AM	Does anyone have a MM? Not the SRD, but the actual MM? The SRD may have a mistake in it, so I want to double check the MM to see if the T is immune to ability drain as well, because it just makes sense. Other wise, you can kill the T with con drain. The Errata doesn't mention T.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-20-07, 01:22 AM	Allow me to rephrase: DC 58 to learn something that is obvious as soon as you see him. DC 63 to learn something that is obvious as soon as you see him. DC 68 to learn something that is obvious as soon as you see him. DC 73 to learn a fact that can safely be assumed. DC 78 to learn something you will realise after one or two round of attacks. DC 83 to learn something that will be obvious the first time you cast as spell. DC 88 to learn something that is unlikely to come up. DC 93 ot learn something that will be obvious after several rounds of combat. So, by suceeding at a knowledge check vs DC 93 allows a character to "know" stuff that any idiot should be able to quickly figure out. Allow to once again point out how wrong you are. Knowledge checks are a free action that can only be done once per kind of monster. Since the big T is unique you have no prior knowledge about the monster. Most people will alter the table (it is after all up to the DM which facts are learned at what DC) but it does not change the fact that wish should and will be the hardest one to learn, and at DC 60 no one can beat it without dropping 90,000 gold on a handband of knowledge (arcane) +30 item. Try beating 70 metagamer. DC 58 to learn is is not a dragon. I does no desend from the drake/dragon/wyvern line nor is a half bred missing wings. You learn he is a overgrown (magical) beast. DC 63 to learn he can rush you. We are not talking run here, we are talking about a sudden burst of speed this thing can do to move around like a dragon breathes fire. This is something you cannot tell by looking at it. DC 68 to learn his claws are sharp. A reference to the big T's Augmented Critical ability. The claws look like a dragons, but their shaper or maybe the big T just knows where to stab them. Again, looking at it won't releave a thing. Does looking a a fighters club let you know he has improved critical? DC 73 to learn he has scent. Please move to planet earth, everyone has noses, almost everything can smell in some way. This teaches you about the fact teh big T can smell you like a dire wolf can. Hey guess what, you can't see how well he can detect smell. DC 78 to learn no metal or enchantment can cut his skin any better than a rusty spork. You basicly learn you don't have anything to bypass his DR. Silver won't work any better on them than adamantine will. It is also something you cannot use a spot check to learn. DC 83 to learn spells reflect off his armor. Free action the moment this thing pops in to learn some weaknesses and strengths vs. I will not make a knowledge check untill I try blasting this thing. With holding your knowledge check untill the next round is also metagaming. DC 88 to learn he is immune to ability damage. Again, knowledge check done when you see him vs. claiming your charecter will attack him with a wide arrange of spells before makign his/her check. DC 93 to learn he has regeneration. Which protects against eveything, which you lean when you beat a spot check after the fighter tries slicing it skin open over the last few rounds. DC 98 to learn you have to cast wish to kill him. Really, in my world, no knowledge check would reveal this. Simply put if they knew to do this then the big T is dead already. DC 103 to learn wish only works when he is in chunks and not moving. Just so I broke 100 really, plus the post I quoted reminded me that turning it into stone does not actully kill it kill it. *** 1.http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/PhotoGallery/ReptilesAmphibians/photos/(2577-25)SinaloanMlkSnk.jpg 2. http://www.achetudoeregiao.com.br/ANIMAIS/gif_animal/cobra_coral.jpg 1. http://snake.fol.nl/JPGs/venom02.jpg 2. http://www.shaolin.com.au/animal_files/king_cobra.jpg 1. http://images.livescience.com/images/top10_deadly_poison_frog.jpg 2. http://www.desertusa.com/oct96/du_scorpionhy1.jpg 1. http://images.livescience.com/images/top10_deadly_african_elephant.jpg 2. http://images.livescience.com/images/top10_deadly_capebuffalo.jpg 1. http://images.livescience.com/images/top10_deadly_mosquito.jpg 2. http://images.livescience.com/images/top10_deadly_whiteshark.jpg I wounder how many times you a internet search on to claim you know which is deadlier. but of crouse I don't care what you know, the question was based off their pictures which looks deadlier? Put some points in wisdom on your next level up. You cannot tell by looking at an ant and guess how much it can lift, you cannot look at a flea and know it accerates ten times faster than NASA's space rockets. You know those facts from your knowledge(4th grade) check not spot.
Scion of Coldshard 06-20-07, 01:44 AM	Hmm.. because of an ability of questionable power I thought up a 10th level character who could beat the mighty Tarrasque, and it isnt even a specialized build, just one that happens to be too good based on the primary ability in use. This isnt going into all sorts of complete X or whatnot either. But, what is the point really? A single build using an ability that should likely be erratad does not change a creatures CR. In the case of this ability anything that relies on melee damage would have to be reduced in CR by quite a bit if that was the case! As for ability drain, I just treat it as a special form of ability damage personally ;)
dman11235 06-20-07, 02:03 AM	I do too (drain). I too, can think of non-specialized builds that can take the Tarrasque. Even in melee (Dwarven defender FTW! too bad he doesn't have wish/miracle). But as you stated, Scion of Coldshard (cool name, btw) this does not make the T under CRed.
dknight100 06-20-07, 04:58 AM	Does anyone have a MM? Not the SRD, but the actual MM? The SRD may have a mistake in it, so I want to double check the MM to see if the T is immune to ability drain as well, because it just makes sense. Other wise, you can kill the T with con drain. The Errata doesn't mention T. The T is vulnerable to drain. I've got the book by my desk (at home). This does mean you can kill him that way, but it still hits the SR and Fort save speedbumps, which are more like speedhimalayas. Just regarding con drain. While there is likely something in the splatbooks, we all know that these frequently contain greater powerslide than an mario kart veteran. Artificer anyone... Im not saying all splat is overpowered, but alot is. From the standard PHB, pretty much the only thing you can do is create greater undead and go for wraiths. Note that a low level and medium level party would require scrolls, and when they create the wraith, it is not under their control. Their cleric or someone would need to Command it with turning power, or get it with control undead, and wraiths have turning resistance, making that harder. Also, the wraith would only be able to harm it during the night time. yes, night is a long time, but its also pretty hard for a wraith to bother the tarrasque, only a 5% chance for the T to fail his fort save VS their drain, even when the T is on 1 con, and they need to drain him, assuming perfect average rolling of 4's for the drain, 9 times. Before dawn, because once that comes, he'll get 1 con back by the time they can get going again. When coming up with other ways to get his con down, keep in mind, the T is immune to ability damage, poison, disease and energy drain. And that if you intend on touching him, as a caster, you'll be wanting greater invisibility or incorporeality with guantlets of ghost touch.
runestar 06-20-07, 04:59 AM	As for your undead. The Tarrasque is immune to the shadow's str damage, while you cant actually get an allip without a DM giving you one, i.e. setting you up to have an advantage. You could get a wraith, via the 8th level cleric spell Summon Greater Undead. But then you would force the T to make a DC 14 Fort save. i.e. roll a one. I dont need to repeat calculations to show how thats hardly even worth considering. You can obtain an allip via the summon undead 4 spell (which is available even to good arcane spellcasters since they do not face alignment restrictions on spellcasting). This means that a spellcaster with a wand of summon undead4 can start disabling the tarrasque from as early as 1st lv (use collegiate wizard to cast alter self into an avariel for the flight to stay out its reach), in theory at least. At lv20, it lasts for 20 rounds (or extend it if you want to). The allip will have no trouble hitting the tarrasque on a touch melee attack (it misses only on a 1), draining 1d4 wis per hit (no save). Even if it drains only 1 wis/hit, it will take only 14 rounds to drain the tarrasque's wis to zero. But on average, it will take only 6 rounds to do it in. Now that the tarrasque is comatose, you can take your own sweet time to do whatever it is you want to do to finish the job. Of course, let me re-iterate again that no dm will ever allow this. But my point is that the fact that we can even consider this shows how mechanically flawed the tarrasque really is. It is little more than a big, dumb bruiser with few threats, which is really not that hard for PCs to work around, given the vast resources they likely have access to.
northern_bear 06-20-07, 05:57 AM	Wish wish wish. Blah blah blah. "you can't kill it without a wish." and "how will your character find out he needs to use a wish to kill it" are not sufficient to justify its inflated CR. If I have a new monster called a pink goblin, which is a unique creature, with stats that are identical to a normal goblin, the only difference being that it can't be killed without a wish. Then what should the CR of that creature be? 1/2. Same as a regular goblin. You just throw it in jail and leave it there. Problem solved. CRs are supposed to be based on the difficulty of defeating a creature. Not of killing it. If a 9th level charcter, or a 12th level party, or whatever, can defeat the tarrasque, then it's CR is too high. The fact that they don't actually kill it is irrelevant. If they beat it, they get the experience points. Turning it into a sloth, turning it to stone, or teleporting it to the moon should all work fine.
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-20-07, 06:06 AM	CRs are supposed to be based on the difficulty of defeating a creature. Not of killing it. Yup. If you sneak past a creature to get to your objective, it still counts as defeating it even. nowhere do you have to kill it, unless it'll show up later in the adventure if you don't.
dknight100 06-20-07, 06:19 AM	Wish wish wish. Blah blah blah. "you can't kill it without a wish." and "how will your character find out he needs to use a wish to kill it" are not sufficient to justify its inflated CR. If I have a new monster called a pink goblin, which is a unique creature, with stats that are identical to a normal goblin, the only difference being that it can't be killed without a wish. Then what should the CR of that creature be? 1/2. Same as a regular goblin. You just throw it in jail and leave it there. Problem solved. CRs are supposed to be based on the difficulty of defeating a creature. Not of killing it. If a 9th level charcter, or a 12th level party, or whatever, can defeat the tarrasque, then it's CR is too high. The fact that they don't actually kill it is irrelevant. If they beat it, they get the experience points. Turning it into a sloth, turning it to stone, or teleporting it to the moon should all work fine. Dude, its been pointed out repeatedly, its not just finding out its a wish that take it. You cant teleport to the moon, its drastically far out of range of teleport, plus you need to have been there or able to accurately visualise the spot. I have demonstrated just how unlikely it is to be polymorphed into a sloth, and turning it to stone is a pretty much identical exercise. Furthermore, even though teleport and such can get past its carapace, a low level caster has a pretty much impossible time getting it past his defences before your using an amount of scrolls far in excess the wealth any DM would let you have, in addition to your other gear. The Summon Undead 4 example is also from splatbooks. If we look at core, you cant. if we do use splatbooks, then it would have to be quite a broken way to go about things, that if used as a measure of CR, would drop the CR of almost everything that does not wield a weapon. ::EDIT:: From the splatbooks issue, we can see that the tarrasque is not actually broken, but that splatbook material is frequently broken.
dknight100 06-20-07, 06:21 AM	Yup. If you sneak past a creature to get to your objective, it still counts as defeating it even. nowhere do you have to kill it, unless it'll show up later in the adventure if you don't. Also, we cant use this as an example of it being easily defeatable. 1stly, your object is entirely dependant on the whims of your dm. You cant measure its CR or determine if it sucks by saying "by my object was to sneak by it" because you know what the CR of every single monster that couldnt see invisible? zero.
runestar 06-20-07, 07:35 AM	Yup. If you sneak past a creature to get to your objective, it still counts as defeating it even. nowhere do you have to kill it, unless it'll show up later in the adventure if you don't. Only if the tarrasque is specifically not part of the objective. If your quest is to slay the rampaging tarrasque before it lays waste to cities, then clearly simply sneaking past it without it noticing is not going to earn you any xp. If it is the guardian of some artifact you are supposed to retrieve, then yes, you get xp for circumventing it as if you had defeated it in combat. I don't know how many dms would use it as a glorified watchdog though. It fits the role of "Armageddon device" better.:)
northern_bear 06-20-07, 07:44 AM	. . . I have demonstrated just how unlikely it is to be polymorphed into a sloth, and turning it to stone is a pretty much identical exercise. . . Every time you cast polymorph, or flesh to stone, it has a 5% chance of failing its save and being affected.
northern_bear 06-20-07, 07:48 AM	If we look at core, you cant. OK. I'll give you that. Or at least very very difficult, at low levels. if we do use splatbooks, then it would have to be quite a broken way to go about things. That's subjective. My 9th level wizard had one feat & one spell from a splatbook. Arguably they are broken. Summon undead is just a single spell from a splat book. I haven't heard many people argue that it is broken before.
dknight100 06-20-07, 08:01 AM	Compare an allip vs any monster in the game that cant wield a weapon, but holds a moderate or high CR. Most of them can't do anything to the allip. Your character doesnt have to be made from splatbooks, it just has to have the right bits from a splatbook. Some classes and powers from splat i wouldnt take for the life of me, and not from being overpowered. Its not a 5% chance. First it has to go past the spell resist, which for a low (9-12, not even below that) would require a 20 and a 5, and thats assuming 20 is an automatic success on SR checks (its late in nz, i cant really be bothered looking. Both checks must fail for the T to be affecting, taking it from 5% each time to 0.25% chance of success. Ive displayed plenty of calculations using this, showing how unlikely a victory from this method is. Without reducing his spell resistance, the caster has only a 20% chance of having defeated the T after 40 rounds of casting. I have even shown the extremely high amounts of money this tactic would require to stand even this 20% chance of winning, even if the wizard crafts his scrolls himself. Its not just 'very very difficult' it requires a huge investment of money, and working on the assumption that your character has magically read the MM and knows that the T has a remote chance, 1/4 of 1%, of being affected by a spell like baleful polymorph. ::EDIT:: by the above paragraph, i dont mean that your wizard knows that baleful polymorph is a damn good spell to bust out against pretty much anything big, but that after 5 attempts, perhaps 10-15 attempts if your mage is ridiculously persistant, would go against all logic and decide to KEEP going. Its RAW that when a spell fails against a target, the caster only knows that it has failed. Your wizard would have no way of distinguishign between his spell failing from saves or failing from immunity. Why, after 15 attempts to cast such a spell on the tarrasque, would he keep goign?
runestar 06-20-07, 08:12 AM	Compare an allip vs any monster in the game that cant wield a weapon, but holds a moderate or high CR. Most of them can't do anything to the allip. So? I have never heard anyone complain of the summon undead line of spells being broken before. Much less conjuring an army of allips to take down the enemy. Probably because barring a few very specific scenarios, it is a very inefficient method of combating a foe. The allip deals no damage in combat, and it must succeed at draining the foe's wis to zero for your venture to have been worth anything (a t-rex with a wis of 1 is still as dangerous as when it has a wis score of 10). I am not sure I see what you are trying to drive at. We are pointing out the weaknesses of the tarrasque. You then proceed to ban those methods, then proclaim that the tarrasque is powerful because aforementioned tactics no longer exist?:confused: Isn't that like saying that a fighter20 is more powerful than a wiz20 in a 1v1 matchup because you have banned all spells in your game? Or that rogues are useless because you don't use traps and flood your games with undead?:confused:
dknight100 06-20-07, 08:14 AM	Oh yea, another thing with the allip... That spell is definitely broken. Being able to summon at allip at 7th level far far outshines that class whom live and death is the bread and butter of, the Cleric. The best undead creating power they have, from core at least, is Greater Create Undead, which is a Level 8 spell, requiring the cleric to be 15th level, and frankly, what they can create (for a moderate material cost) doesnt match an allip and doesnt start controlled (i assume the wizard one would, as they cannot use a turn to Command Undead) ::EDIT:: I'm not banning the technique, im just saying that its a horrible example of the Tarrasque being a wimp. Its the Tarrasque being a wimp in a way that everything that lacks hands is a wimp. The T-Rex in your example effectively dies after one round with an allip. At wis 0 without a save from one touch, the T-Rex is now a gibbering sack of meat on the ground, waiting to be dispatched. How is turning your enemies into a gibbering sack of coup de grace an ineffective tactic, given the duration of the spell. Being incorporeal, they would need a magic weapon to stand a chance at getting rid of it, even if they had DR 15/Epic being their natural weapons only count as a Epic weapon for overcoming DR I'm driving at that using Core (he was designed before splat), the Tarrasque is effectively impossible for a low-mid group, and the challenge he should be for a high group. Using splat, the same thing is still the case, unless you use Summon Undead to create an Allip. Using this technique does not make the Tarrasque a wimp, it just illustrates how broken that particular spell is.
dknight100 06-20-07, 08:45 AM	As far as 'banning' casting a spell repeatedly, I argue against it because the investment to do so and stand a chance at working goes against logic and the wealth guidelines. If your wizard could not reduce his SR, it would be 277 rounds of casting Baleful Polymorph (or flesh to stone, whatever) before the Tarrasque drops below a 50% likeliness to have not failed his save (at which point he would have a 49.989007% chance of still being unaffected). Each Baleful Polymorph scroll (because i'm kinda sure the wizard would have exceeded his 5th level spells for the day by then), would cost 562.5GP and 56.25XP if he scribes them. Thats not horrendous. But then consider, after 277 castings he's only 50% (rounded to the nearest full percent) likely to have failed. By that point, the wizard has spent 15,581XP and 155,812.5GP. 277 rounds is 27.7 minutes... If he could reduce the SR with that Spell Penetration spell (splat isnt it? and does it have a save?) then it would take 34 castings of Baleful Polymorph before we reach the 50% mark. Thats 1912XP and 19,125GP invested in scrolls to get a 50% chance of winning. A 9th Level character should have acquired approximated 36,000GP IN WEALTH, so this includes all his actual gear, over the course of his adventures to date. If you rolled a new wizard just for the tarrasque, he would somehow spend 53.125% of all his wealth in your spell of choice, and thats assumign he can reduce the T's spell resistance without needing a single scroll or item of the spell reduction item. Yes, the group could chip in, and its still a massive amount of money. To make that many scrolls, it would take the wizard 40 days of scribing. ::EDIT:: My mistake, thats 34 days of scribing, typo ::/EDIT:: If that spell resistance reducing spell has a save, then you require even more resources.
runestar 06-20-07, 08:49 AM	Summon undead line of spells are also available to clerics and blackguards, so I would hardly call that stepping on the toes of the cleric. I only mentioned the wizard because the typical party is likely to be good. Thus, it is unlikely that the cleric is capable of casting said spell due to it having the evil subtype, but the wizard faces no such limitations. But otherwise, it is really a fairly lackluster spell. Maybe my phrasing was somewhat inaccurate, and I do apologize if I have mislead you inadvertantly, but I was not saying that a tarrasque is a wimp because of its stats, but rather, because it is quite a 1-sided battle. Its forte is melee. I do not deny this. Anyone who tries to go toe-to-toe with it in melee is sure to be torn apart like a rag doll. But it is completely worthless against ranged attackers, due to its inability to fly. And anyone savvy enough to make it to lv20 will surely have the common sense not to engage in melee when they see such a beastie. Thus, it will more or less be helpless against a flying party, which is all too easy to acquire at that lv. As such, I don't see he can be a challenge for high lv parties when it will be expected that the PCs will naturally try to turn the battlefield into their advantage. If they do not know anything about it, divination spells can be used to rectify this. All in all, it should not be surprising when they readily find means of exploiting its weaknesses. The pit fiend and balor are better examples of what a high cr challenge should entail.
dman11235 06-20-07, 11:20 AM	Epic weapons are magical, no? So the Tarrasque has epic, andtherefor magical natural weapons? And then it seems to reason that the allip dies within a couple rounds. Saying that you can make buildsthat can defeat the tarrasque does not mean that it has an inflated CR. LostPassWordDoesNotWork has covered this, I believe. It means nothing that if you are prepared for it, know all of it's strengths, all of it's weaknesses, and every thing else about it, it does not stand a chance. And yes, the tarrasque is hard for many reasons, and one of them is the utter lack of knowledge about it. Also, balors are weaker than CR 20. They are because the balor might summon another balor. More later.
northern_bear 06-20-07, 11:42 AM	I keep hearing people say "but anything is easy to beat if you know all its weaknesses." But I still have not seen someone show me how a CR 20 dragon, balor, pit fiend, or titan, are going to be easy to beat if you know all their weaknesses. I have repeatedly requested to see a build where a 10th level character can easily beat the hell out of CR 20 dragon. I'm still waiting.
northern_bear 06-20-07, 11:47 AM	. . . Its RAW that when a spell fails against a target, the caster only knows that it has failed. Your wizard would have no way of distinguishign between his spell failing from saves or failing from immunity. . . Where is this written?
dman11235 06-20-07, 01:33 PM	As I said in my previous post, part of the reason that the T is so hard to beat is that you know NOTHING about it. And I will work on that level 10 character that can beat a balor/pitfiend/CR20+dragon.....DONE!!! Pun-Pun. I have just created a level 10 (? I know that it can be done sooner than that as well) kobold sorcerer that can defeat any creature, any CR. Does that prove that every monster is over CRed? No, it proves that I (someone else) have looked at the rules and come up with the second most broken ability combinations possible (the most broken would be the level 4 character that actually DOES have infinite stats). Actually, every monster is over CRed (except dragons) because the way of calculating CR and testing it is flawed. No party is going to be straight fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue with elite array. No party is going to have the EXACT wealth by level. Straight wizard is terrible. Prcs give special abilities that can help. Straight cleric is worse. Also, no party is going to be core only. That is how the T's CR was calculated. That is why it's 20. And yes, anything IS easy to beat if you know ALL of it's weaknesses and prepare for them. If you know absolutely NOTHING about a creature and random encounter it, then it will be challenging and use up resources and HP by the time you figure out a way to kill it. The Balor and Pit Fiend have to make up for their lack of not being able to not be known by having SLAs and intelligence (this sentece uses double negatives). They will be just as difficult to beat as the Tarrasque, actually easier, because the CR for the Balor included the ability to summon ANOTHEr one. Rant done. Once again, I am play testing the T this saturday, so the CR can be recalculated then.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-20-07, 02:59 PM	Also, balors are weaker than CR 20. They are because the balor might summon another balor. More later. Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a balor can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell. Two CR 20s is el 22. Does this mean every balor fight is really el 22 or that the balor's CR took into account the 100% chance summoning ability? *** Ancient Red Dragon (CR 23) vs. metagaming 10th level wizard (with a pre-combat round that can be done within 9 rounds of the battle). Pre-Combat Round: Cast Assay Spell Resistance (target self, boost sr checks by 10, lasts 1/rnd cl). Round 1: <insert lame excuse as the ones seen in posts before me> so the dragon don't hit the wizard. Cast Reach Shivering Touch (avg 10.5 dex damage, no save, +5 to ranged touch attack vs AC 6) and beat SR 28 with a +20 roll. Round 2: Coup Degrace the helpless dragon with a +1 weapon since it only had 10 dex. Round 3: Coup Degrace the helpless dragon again. Round 4: Coup Degrace the helpless dragon again. And so on... (shivering touch lasts for 10 rounds, then it can just be cast again). Spell slots used, one 4th, one 5th. Gold spent, none. Hey looky, I did not break wealth by level or claim the wizard knows to spam the same spell 42 times. A 10th level charecter has a 60% chance of beating a CR 23 ancient dragon in basicly one round with a metamagic'ed 3rd level spell. We need a thread called "Discussion of why a ancient red dragon is a wimp". Disclaimer - Yes I know the above will not actully work in game and you do not have to point that out. The above does point out how easy it is to kill anything when you focus on it and crunch numbers. Edit - @northern_bear, you have lost all arguement at this point. My build beats something that you say is worthy of it's CR with less expendables and I was even nice enough to up the foe another three levels higher. It also does it in one combat round and can pull this off ALOT easier than any combo you have tried to say can beat Tarrasque.
dknight100 06-20-07, 05:05 PM	Thus, it will more or less be helpless against a flying party, which is all too easy to acquire at that lv. Here are some animals that the Tarrasque is smarter than: Ape, Baboon, Monkey, Wolf. Apes, Baboons, and Monkeys all figure out within their lifespan, and figure out pretty readily to, to use basic tools, and to throw stuff at things. Most of them do it to throw stuff at things they don't want to get close to. The wolf has 2 int and knows to use pack and ambush tactics. It is reasonable to expect that given that the T has big clawed hands, more int, huge str and moderate dex, and a massively long lifespan, that it would know, or quickly figure out, to throw things at a target it cant reach but is threatening it. I'm not arguing it would be as good as his melee attacks, as the Tarrasque doesn't have pockets and belts from which to quickdraw, so it would still take a move action to uproot a tree, then his standard action to biff it at someone, but that would still consist a collosal improvised thrown weapon. His dex isnt as high as his str, but it is 16, he would stand a reasonable chance to hit, and would add his str to thrown damage. ::EDIT:: Just corrected some potentiall confusing typos
Ace_of_time 06-20-07, 07:40 PM	Wow you all have been busy. OK first thing summon elemental monolith is a 9th level spell. Any level PC could get the spells in my method with enough GP's. The DMG says that you have to be at least 13th level to handle a CR20. So if anybody beat it before then the DM did something wrong. I would say that any one immune to drain would not be immune to damage but since Draining is still damage his abilities, To me, he would still be immune. I was talk about 17th-20th because because it would be insane to do it any lower. The XP table doesn't give XP for beating the Big T at 12th or lower so if you got XP for getting past him or beating him it was a gift from your DM. The undead were not to damage him only keep him from attacking the party. The undead and monolith should keep him busy letting the spell do it's job. If you take the mind set of the Take 20 action then 20 rolls would be all you would need to roll a 1. Low level party could use haste with greater invis with spring attack to keep out of his reach without AoO. With the above spell scrolls whether it be max UMB or spell caster check would be able to beat him. But one mistake would be TPK. I know there was something I missed. With a high powered camp i add +3 to Level of the player when trying to see what monster would be the right CR. This makes up for higher then normal abilities and player builds. So if you post a post about how I'm wrong and your PC did it lower then 13th level please post level ability scores and what power level you play at to stop the confusion.
dknight100 06-20-07, 09:17 PM	Yea, we have been busy. Welll... ive been bored and keep coming back to this at least. We do overall agree, that it would cost lots of money and would be rather weird for a group to pull it off before they are fairly high level. The except to this is the Allip, which i agree would easily defeat the Tarrasque, but isnt really valid for illustrating how the T sucks and should have his CR lowered. Anything that lacks the hands to have a magical weapon would need to have its CR lowered by about 10 if the Allip was a valid measuring stick. Wow you all have been busy. OK first thing summon elemental monolith is a 9th level spell. Any level PC could get the spells in my method with enough GP's. With enough GP's, i could provide the whole party with epic weapons and 100 wands of Heal, but for the purposes of defeating the tarrasque within the rules and without DM Caveats, 'with enough gp' isnt really a valid tactic. The undead were not to damage him only keep him from attacking the party. The undead and monolith should keep him busy letting the spell do it's job. If you take the mind set of the Take 20 action then 20 rolls would be all you would need to roll a 1. A few holes in that though - firstly, taking 20 does not actually work from a probability standpoint, it is simply a game rule to model taking ones time. Typically, taking 20 is used in things such as craft, where it represents not 20 attempts, but taking 20 times as long for 1 attempt. To actually look at being 100% likely to get a 20 on 1d20, your looking at over 100 rolls. Yes, it is likely to get a 20 by then (the 50% likely mark is back on the 13th roll). However, note that has both SR and High saves - he doesnt need to just roll a 1, the wizard needs to roll a 20 first, then the T needs to roll a 1. Even if Assay Spell Resistance was used, that would need the wizard to roll over 7 (65% likely), and then the T to roll a 1 (5% likely). To calculate the probability of those both happening we multiply the two. The cumulative probability of the wizard rolling over 7, and the T rolling a 1 is 3.25%. Also, if your using any tactic that requires a UMB, then it adds another level of unlikeliness in there. Especially if your using it to get access to a high or even moderate level scroll, UMD dc for a scroll is 20 + caster level (for the scroll).
Vanigo 06-20-07, 10:35 PM	From Webster's on line biped One entry found for biped. Main Entry: bi·ped Pronunciation: 'bI-"ped Function: noun Etymology: Latin biped-, bipes, from bi- + ped-, pes foot -- more at FOOT : a two-footed animal - bi·ped·al /(")bI-'pe-d&l/ adjective - bi·ped·al·ly /-E/ adverb I meant that Biped meant two legs and was not talking about rules wise.The problem with that is that quadruped means four legs, and, as I've said, there are lots of creatures that clearly do not fall into either category. Axebeak is a biped creature but I would consider it quadruped because of it's unusual body. Big T has Two legs and two arms and would be able to reach higher in than say a horse.I'm not so sure about that. Big T's got arms of a sort, but the horse has a head that sticks up above its torso. I'd call that a wash. It's easier for a DM to use the average vert reach then to use a calculation for each monster. A DM looks at a pic and decide whether it biped or not and uses the RAW as needed and it saves time in game to just use averages.I agree that it's unreasonable to expect a DM to calculate the vertical reach for each monster, I simply disagree with how you're proposing to divide the creatures. Dividing it two legs good, any other number of legs bad just because most tall creatures have two legs is silly. Height is not really determined by number of legs. Height is, however, directly proportional to height. Never really thought about down. On the ground it would be limited by the ground. unless your were on a ledge or the like and I would use mêlée reach. In the sky or things like water most would turn to which ever direction they needed to. Depending on Fly mobility. In which case down would be at your feet which ever direction facing at the timeSo, horizontal is the same as down, but not the same as up? How does that make any sort of sense? As for orienting yourself, that only makes sense in places like the Elemental Plane of Air where there's either no gravity or subjective gravity. In the sky, most creatures have to keep their wings horizontal most of the time or they can't fly. (You could do it underwater, too, but that really falls under "no gravity.") As I said space is on the map not how high it is.Uh, what?
runestar 06-20-07, 10:48 PM	Two CR 20s is el 22. Does this mean every balor fight is really el 22 or that the balor's CR took into account the 100% chance summoning ability? It has already been factored into its cr. Thus, a balor who summons another balor is still cr20. But the summoned balor is not that difficult to deal with if your party is prepared. For example, it can be dispelled (basically, all the limitations facing summoned monsters as per the spell). Still, it can make for a TPK if the PCs are not prepared adequately. One balor spams blasphemy, the other uses attack spells or enters melee.
northern_bear 06-21-07, 07:51 AM	. . . level 10 character that can beat a balor/pitfiend/CR20+dragon.....DONE!!! Pun-Pun. The difference is, the wizard in my example, or the characters used in other peoples examples, are actually playable characters. You can claim that the tactics that they use are meta-game tactics, but the characters themselves are not inherently min-maxed. They aren't even that unusual. Pun-Pun killing the tarrasque proves nothing. But if a fairly typical 10th level party, the type of party that might actually be played in a normal game, can defeat the Tarrasque, then that says something about the Tarrasque's toughness. Pre-Combat Round: Cast Assay Spell Resistance (target self, boost sr checks by 10, lasts 1/rnd cl). Round 1: <insert lame excuse as the ones seen in posts before me> so the dragon don't hit the wizard. Cast Reach Shivering Touch (avg 10.5 dex damage, no save, +5 to ranged touch attack vs AC 6) and beat SR 28 with a +20 roll. Round 2: Coup Degrace the helpless dragon with a +1 weapon since it only had 10 dex. Round 3: Coup Degrace the helpless dragon again. Round 4: Coup Degrace the helpless dragon again. And so on... (shivering touch lasts for 10 rounds, then it can just be cast again). Spell slots used, one 4th, one 5th. Gold spent, none. Hey looky, I did not break wealth by level or claim the wizard knows to spam the same spell 42 times. A 10th level charecter has a 60% chance of beating a CR 23 ancient dragon in basicly one round with a metamagic'ed 3rd level spell. Where is shivering touch from? A 3rd level spell that does a bunch of dexterity damage, with no save? It may not be pun-pun, but it still sounds like something that most DMs wouldn't allow in their games. Disclaimer - Yes I know the above will not actully work in game and you do not have to point that out. Allow me to point out to you that the tactic you are describing would not actually work in a game. The above does point out how easy it is to kill anything when you focus on it and crunch numbers. You admit that your tactic would never work in a game. And then you say that your tactic proves how easy it is to kill something [in game].
dknight100 06-21-07, 08:30 AM	A 3rd level spell that does a bunch of dexterity damage, with no save? It may not be pun-pun, but it still sounds like something that most DMs wouldn't allow in their games. So we could count the allip out then, seeing as Summon Undead 4 is better than Create Greater Undead (Level 8)? The difference is, the wizard in my example, or the characters used in other peoples examples, are actually playable characters. The wizard in your example is playable? when the DM gives out infinite wealth perhaps. Other wise, no he's really not. But if a fairly typical 10th level party, the type of party that might actually be played in a normal game, can defeat the Tarrasque, then that says something about the Tarrasque's toughness. How does your 10th level party do it? Because unless its the allip, they can't within the wealth by level guideline. You admit that your tactic would never work in a game. And then you say that your tactic proves how easy it is to kill something [in game]. The only actual different between his example and your example is that he admits it wouldnt work. You claim it would work perfectly, despite the massively low chance of it working per cast, which in turn would require, as i have demonstrated repeatedly with maths, would cost a pile of gold of a higher size category than the tarrasque.
northern_bear 06-21-07, 09:47 AM	You claim it would work perfectly, despite the massively low chance of it working per cast, which in turn would require, as i have demonstrated repeatedly with maths, would cost a pile of gold of a higher size category than the tarrasque. You aren't the only one who knows how to do math. Probability that the tarrasque has not yet failled a single saving throw, after N attemts = 1-(19/20)^N There's a 50% probability that he will have failed within the first 14 saves. A 64% chance that he will fail a save within the first 20. And only a 20% chance that he can survive past 30 saves. 30 spells per day is NOT beyond the price range of a mid level party. Wand of blindness = 4,500 gp. Wand of charm monster = 21,000 gp. If there is some way you can bump up the save DCs to the point where the Tarrasque fails his save on a 1 or 2, then he's likely (more than 50%) to be dropped after only 7 saves. If you can get him to fail on a 1,2 or 3, then he's likely to go down after only 5 saves. Is there anything wrong with this math? Is 4,500 gp too valuable for a 10th level character? And don't tell me that I forgot to factor in spell resistance. You keep bringing that up, and I keep telling you that I'm assuming it not to be a factor. And I have already admitted that if the wizard can't easily beat the SR, then my approach doesn't work.
Ace_of_time 06-21-07, 10:15 AM	The problem with that is that quadruped means four legs, and, as I've said, there are lots of creatures that clearly do not fall into either category. I'm not so sure about that. Big T's got arms of a sort, but the horse has a head that sticks up above its torso. I'd call that a wash. I agree that it's unreasonable to expect a DM to calculate the vertical reach for each monster, I simply disagree with how you're proposing to divide the creatures. Dividing it two legs good, any other number of legs bad just because most tall creatures have two legs is silly. Height is not really determined by number of legs. Height is, however, directly proportional to height. So, horizontal is the same as down, but not the same as up? How does that make any sort of sense? As for orienting yourself, that only makes sense in places like the Elemental Plane of Air where there's either no gravity or subjective gravity. In the sky, most creatures have to keep their wings horizontal most of the time or they can't fly. (You could do it underwater, too, but that really falls under "no gravity.") Uh, what? Then post your own method for it. I'm a DM and in my games this is how I do it. As I said it would be up to the DM to come up with his own way. Most creatures that have fly Turn around rather then attack down towards their feet. If they don't have fly then we are talkiing about on the ground and that would limit it. The space a monster takes up is so you can tell on a map where it is. Map meaning the board you play D&D on. As long as you and your players are having fun these rules will not matter much.
Druss_of_The_Sword 06-21-07, 01:34 PM	i think the tarrasque is the nastiest thing out there. it just will not die. and theres also the variant on the wizards site for a thirty headed tarrasque that can make like 33 instant kill shots in one round. call that a wimp.
dknight100 06-21-07, 03:46 PM	And don't tell me that I forgot to factor in spell resistance. You keep bringing that up, and I keep telling you that I'm assuming it not to be a factor. And I have already admitted that if the wizard can't easily beat the SR, then my approach doesn't work. How is it not a factor? thats ridiculous. a 9th-12th level character cant definitely beat the spell resist. I keep bringing it up because its relevant. Your approach is like saying an Ancient Dragon is a pushover if your DM makes him Ready Action "Only attack when someone does a morris dance at a distance of less than 20ft"
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-21-07, 07:31 PM	The difference is, the wizard in my example, or the characters used in other peoples examples, are actually playable characters.You should by a DMG before making that claim. Maybe try playing in a campaign instead of using your action replay on a D&D video game while your at it. Where is shivering touch from? Frostburn, page 104. A 3rd level spell that does a bunch of dexterity damage, with no save?3d6 dex damage with a touch attack that lasts (caster level) rounds. Reach Spell (complete divine) ups the spell two levels and turns it into a 30 foot ray attack. It may not be pun-pun, but it still sounds like something that most DMs wouldn't allow in their games. + Allow me to point out to you that the tactic you are describing would not actually work in a game. = Funny, everyone is saying your builds are wrong and ignore the rules and no DM whould allow them. I call Troll on you. Go home. You admit that your tactic would never work in a game. And then you say that your tactic proves how easy it is to kill something [in game].To the ancient red dragon, its a come within 30 feet of the wizard and die within the first combat round. Which is alot better than your metagamed ignore knowledge check / wealth by level / charecter behaver wizard spamming 20 some odd spells he don't have over 20 rounds he don't have to spare after casting three or four buffs and forgetting their durations end halfway though build you claim works. In short, the build beats his foe alot easier than the build you claim can kill a tarrasque. By your own words in past posts my example wins his fight and wins example showcase by doing it a heck of a lot better than yours and it don't have to break a single rule to do it. It just fails to pull this off in game which is what the last 8 pages of other people have been explaining to you about yours.
Ace_of_time 06-21-07, 10:01 PM	Yea, we have been busy. Welll... ive been bored and keep coming back to this at least. We do overall agree, that it would cost lots of money and would be rather weird for a group to pull it off before they are fairly high level. The except to this is the Allip, which i agree would easily defeat the Tarrasque, but isnt really valid for illustrating how the T sucks and should have his CR lowered. Anything that lacks the hands to have a magical weapon would need to have its CR lowered by about 10 if the Allip was a valid measuring stick. With enough GP's, i could provide the whole party with epic weapons and 100 wands of Heal, but for the purposes of defeating the tarrasque within the rules and without DM Caveats, 'with enough gp' isnt really a valid tactic. A few holes in that though - firstly, taking 20 does not actually work from a probability standpoint, it is simply a game rule to model taking ones time. Typically, taking 20 is used in things such as craft, where it represents not 20 attempts, but taking 20 times as long for 1 attempt. To actually look at being 100% likely to get a 20 on 1d20, your looking at over 100 rolls. Yes, it is likely to get a 20 by then (the 50% likely mark is back on the 13th roll). However, note that has both SR and High saves - he doesnt need to just roll a 1, the wizard needs to roll a 20 first, then the T needs to roll a 1. Even if Assay Spell Resistance was used, that would need the wizard to roll over 7 (65% likely), and then the T to roll a 1 (5% likely). To calculate the probability of those both happening we multiply the two. The cumulative probability of the wizard rolling over 7, and the T rolling a 1 is 3.25%. Also, if your using any tactic that requires a UMB, then it adds another level of unlikeliness in there. Especially if your using it to get access to a high or even moderate level scroll, UMD dc for a scroll is 20 + caster level (for the scroll). Sorry I had to go to work. Ok Rogue at 10th level has a max rank 13 +4 cha (with item) +2 feat bonus+ 2 from DS=21. On a average roll being 10 and he would need an 8 to make it work is not to bad. SR for him would run off of MIN caster level of 17 and since Big T would be dropped down to 22 think think that SR for the spell would not be a problem no matter the level. the 10th level wizard could still use the spell that gives you Plus 10 to your check meaning he would only roll to see if he gets a 2 or better. I would like to add that there is no auto hit and miss on skill checks. So most knowledge checks for the monster wouldn't give low level PC's much to go on. As for the GP's scrolls of 9th level are only 3,900. the only thing that would be a problem is wish which could be a story item. They wouldn't need epic weapon to beat his DR. Transmuting beats any DR no matter what after the first attack. It's in magic item compendium on page 45. It's only +2 bonus.
dknight100 06-21-07, 10:36 PM	For your 17th caster level spell 22 SR would not be a problem, but i have factored that in to calculations regarding that. ALso, keep in mind that the 3900gp scrolls cost is pretty high when you will definitely need more than one, and need other gears. I had for forgetten the +2 synergy for decipher script, but even so a rogue with 14 cha, must mean his other stats are on the low to medium side, plus, all those ranks in UMD and Decipher Script would be a limiter for his other skill choices, unless he was also high int. Easier to go with a bard for the UMB example, though that means you have a bard in your party (kidding, im only flaming bards a litte). Not to mention they would have also taken a feat. Are you sure you got that UMD check right? I'm getting DC of 37 (20 + 17CL), and your rogue would have a UMD of 21. 37-21 = would need a 16 on his roll. I might just been making a mistake, its kinda stuffy in the office at the moment, so i kinda want to go to sleep. Lastly, those weapons would count as +3 weapons, which would make them cost 18,000 each. Not unreasonable for a 9th-12th. In anycase, they have a lot of stabbing to do, thanks to his 858HP and 40 regen per round. If all the people attacking him were say, fighters with weapon focus in the weapon they're using, +1 enchancement to their weapon (assuming they had +1 Transforming weapons), and 20-21str, they would each still only have a 5% chance to hit with either of their weapons. So each attacker would have 10% chance to hit with 1 attack with 0.25% crit chance per attack, and a 0.25% chance to hit with both. If they're really lucky, they will crit with both, on a 0.000625% chance. Basically, they're not going to overcome his regen without being extremely tinny. ::EDIT:: By 'weapons' i mean attacks
dknight100 06-21-07, 11:28 PM	::DISCLAIMER:: I'm being ridiculous. ::END DISCLAIMER:: A druid could summon dire weasels... Wizard or anyone with UMD and a wand of greater invis could then make them invisible dire weasels. The dire weasels would then bite the tarrasque until they hit (5% chance of hitting), and attached when they do, to drain blood (1d4 con damage, no save). This wouldnt actually work. The T, being more than 2 size categories larger than the weasels, would auto succeed his grapple checks to get rid of an attached weasel. ::EDIT:: Also his regeneration makes this not work even moreso "The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.". Its a great mental image if you imagine his wounds sealing up on the weasels teeth, permaneantly, but safely, attaching the weasel. After a little while of this tactic, T would look like he had furry boots I just liked the mental image of a horde of weasels bringing down a collosal monster.
Ace_of_time 06-21-07, 11:55 PM	For your 17th caster level spell 22 SR would not be a problem, but i have factored that in to calculations regarding that. ALso, keep in mind that the 3900gp scrolls cost is pretty high when you will definitely need more than one, and need other gears. I had for forgetten the +2 synergy for decipher script, but even so a rogue with 14 cha, must mean his other stats are on the low to medium side, plus, all those ranks in UMD and Decipher Script would be a limiter for his other skill choices, unless he was also high int. Easier to go with a bard for the UMB example, though that means you have a bard in your party (kidding, im only flaming bards a litte). Not to mention they would have also taken a feat. Are you sure you got that UMD check right? I'm getting DC of 37 (20 + 17CL), and your rogue would have a UMD of 21. 37-21 = would need a 16 on his roll. I might just been making a mistake, its kinda stuffy in the office at the moment, so i kinda want to go to sleep. Lastly, those weapons would count as +3 weapons, which would make them cost 18,000 each. Not unreasonable for a 9th-12th. In anycase, they have a lot of stabbing to do, thanks to his 858HP and 40 regen per round. If all the people attacking him were say, fighters with weapon focus in the weapon they're using, +1 enchancement to their weapon (assuming they had +1 Transforming weapons), and 20-21str, they would each still only have a 5% chance to hit with either of their weapons. So each attacker would have 10% chance to hit with 1 attack with 0.25% crit chance per attack, and a 0.25% chance to hit with both. If they're really lucky, they will crit with both, on a 0.000625% chance. Basically, they're not going to overcome his regen without being extremely tinny. ::EDIT:: By 'weapons' i mean attacks Your right about scroll. I always look up one line on the tables and forgot to check again like I always have to. We don't use that rule in are games and I had almost forgot it was even in there. I always let them make it the way they want as long as it's MW. The fighter of the group could get imp crit to increase that and if the sword was falchion would also help and the one feat that lets him use large weapons would help too. As for the low level thing I don't see a DM coming to the table and saying that we have a Big T problem and your going to fix it and me stay in that game anywhere under 17th. As I said before it's insane but could be done with the right build. I play high powered game and most of my players never have below 12. They average about 18, 17, 16, 16, 14, 12. Sometimes they will get 9 or lower but they always put it on something that gets pluses. The rogue build is UMB special build and is more of a lover and less of a fighter. Likes to get out of thing with words. Bard would be better but I hate bards.
dknight100 06-22-07, 12:19 AM	In the, as you've put it, kinda insane example we're working with (well, im trying to show how effectively impossible it is etc), He'd be better off with a scythe or Heavy Pick than a falchion. No improved crit, as he can only hit on a 20, so even if he had 15-20 crit range, he still misses unless its a 20, and would only confirm the crit on a 20 too. So if you make something to bank on the crits, then heavy pick or scythe. Personally, i would go for a greatsword or greataxe, not to mention sink all my attack bonus into power attack - 20 is an automatic hit, so if you only hit on a 20 anyway, may as well sink everything into power attack. His damage on the +1 Transforming greatsword would then be an average of 31 damage when he does manage to hit. Decent damage, just he wouldnt hit enough even if there were 4 of him. ::EDIT:: I'd go for the greatsword because of its high average damage. Crits are so unlikely (in the case of the T) that i dont think it would happen enough to make it worth relying on. ::EDIT:: Is that point buy for those stats. In any case, still pretty out there stats. Not criticising your campaign, as if it helps your players enjoyment that thats all good - i can see the incentive to provide all the stats they need to play as they want. I just mean for a more average example then they dont really fit.
Ace_of_time 06-22-07, 12:59 AM	you could go max str build for half orc and get +20 hit. 10 AB,+6 str (18 roll,2 level, 2half orc), 2 imp focus, +1 magic sword, +1 haste. That 15 or better and still go with falchion and still use spring attack and haste with him. With just have to roll a 20 to hit you wouldn't get get any crit damage so any weapon would do. Average damage being 16,32 on crit. Letting the rogue use the wands of the group would be great and leave the wizard and cleric to cast spells. With out my two spell I think we would need a summoners.
dman11235 06-22-07, 01:22 AM	Of course, you need to make sure to coat your weapons with Trollbane (Dungeonscape). It overcomes ALL regeneration.
Vanigo 06-22-07, 01:37 AM	Then post your own method for it. I'm a DM and in my games this is how I do it. As I said it would be up to the DM to come up with his own way.I already did. Anything "tall" is treated as a biped, and anything "long" is treated as a quadruped. Medium-sized and smaller creatures get played by ear; 99% of the time it's a trivial call to make. Plus, since I wouldn't even consider using vertical reach as vertical melee reach, it'll only come up once in a blue moon anyway. Most creatures that have fly Turn around rather then attack down towards their feet. If they don't have fly then we are talkiing about on the ground and that would limit it.As I said, and you apparently ignored, turning around doesn't work so well if you use wings to fly - and that's, what, at least 9 out of 10 fliers? The space a monster takes up is so you can tell on a map where it is. Map meaning the board you play D&D on. As long as you and your players are having fun these rules will not matter much.Oh, I see, you're saying that the creature's space is for determining how big it is on the grid, and nothing else. (I'm inferring those last three words from context.) I don't see how using space to determine something else makes any less sense than using the freaking illustration, though.
neilthrun 06-22-07, 01:40 AM	If I were ever to use big t as an encounter I'd run it by its intellegence score. That is, if it cant reach or chase an opponent, its going to move on. Sure, the adventurers can easily outdistance it. An entire town cant. Make sure theres a good reason for the party to engage it. Yeah, that lvl 20 fighter is going to take a beating, but he should survived if buffed up. More importantly, hes there to keep it off of everything else. If I had a tank, and dudes kept wizzing by me in motorcycles and shooting bullets, I'd ignore them and head for that damn, water tower, etc.
dknight100 06-22-07, 02:15 AM	Just about the int thing, the big T isnt int 1 people, he's int 3, thats smarter than almost all the animals in the MM, including apes, baboons, and monkeys, who are all know to be smart enough to create and use simple tools.
Ace_of_time 06-22-07, 02:20 AM	I already did. Anything "tall" is treated as a biped, and anything "long" is treated as a quadruped. Medium-sized and smaller creatures get played by ear; 99% of the time it's a trivial call to make. Plus, since I wouldn't even consider using vertical reach as vertical melee reach, it'll only come up once in a blue moon anyway. As I said, and you apparently ignored, turning around doesn't work so well if you use wings to fly - and that's, what, at least 9 out of 10 fliers? Oh, I see, you're saying that the creature's space is for determining how big it is on the grid, and nothing else. (I'm inferring those last three words from context.) I don't see how using space to determine something else makes any less sense than using the freaking illustration, though. So where is the rules on attacking down. A roper is tall and not long does that mean you count it as biped. I don't use the illustration for any thing but to show what the creature looks like when asked and to get a idea of which rules to use and thats only after reading the entry. Your the one that looked at the pic and decide through math there vert reach. I said it would be up to the DM since there wasn't really rules on telling whether its biped or not. How is anything I tell you going to tell the people that read this thread whether the Big T is a wimp or not. If your looking for rules advice I think that's somewhere else. As for attacking down since you wouldn't even consider using vertical reach as vertical mêlée reach then attacking down would come up about as often as whether it was a bipeded flier or four footed flier.
northern_bear 06-22-07, 07:15 AM	How is it not a factor? thats ridiculous. a 9th-12th level character cant definitely beat the spell resist. I keep bringing it up because its relevant. Your approach is like saying an Ancient Dragon is a pushover if your DM makes him Ready Action "Only attack when someone does a morris dance at a distance of less than 20ft" It's not a factor, because he has a spell and a feat that render it not a factor. They are non-core. How many times do I have to say this. Non-core feat + non-core spell = SR is no longer a factor. If you disalow non-core, then the tactic doesn't work. I've admitted that repeatedly. How many more times do you want to try to tell me that my tactic won't work because you want to disalow the non-core abilities that make it work.
northern_bear 06-22-07, 07:15 AM	QUOTE=LostPassWordDoesNotWork;12812064]You should by a DMG before making that claim. Maybe try playing in a campaign instead of using your action replay on a D&D video game while your at it. . . . I call Troll on you. Go home.[/QUOTE] Hey, **** head. Why don't you go **** yourself. Until this point I have not insulted anyone on this board. I have simply tried to make an argument, without getting personal. You don't agree with the argument? Fine. Disagree with it. But there's no need to start throwing personal insults at me you pretentious jerk.
dknight100 06-22-07, 10:51 AM	Using complete arcane i have to say, to a degree Northern Bear is correct that a wizard built using said splatbook could stand a chance at defeating the Tarrasque. I do not feel that such a fluke chance validly makes the T a wimp, nor do i feel that such a technique is really a tactic that would be used other than via metagaming - the spamming the same spell, despite still needing a 1 to 'win', when all feedback to the player would be "your spell failed", especially given that it takes 13 rounds before the technique stands a 50% chance of having worked. Anyways, i'll go down into the mechanics of it. I went through a copy of complete arcane, and this is what i found. Arcane Mastery (amusingly 'mastery' can be achieved at first level) allows the mage to take 10 in a caster level check. Practiced Spell Caster (i also find the name amusing, surely any first level mage is infact, a practiced spell caster), adds +4 to the mages caster level. Combined with Assay Spell Resistance, this would reduced spell resistance to a non factor, meaning that it now *almost* entirely relies on the T rolling a 1. We've been using 2 other spell in our buffing, Fly and Greater Invisibility, but the plan hits a potential snag with the Greater Invis, as it has a duration of 1 round/level. With practiced spell caster, this is 13 rounds. Assay Resistance would also have a duration of 13 rounds. If we assume baleful polymorph is used - as teleport doesnt work (you can't "teleport the T to the moon" unless both of these conditions are met 1) you're really keen to go too 2) the Tarrasque wants to go to the moon with you), then you're relying on beating his fort save, which as has been discussed, he only fails on a 1. As has been discussed, after 13 rounds he is 50% likely to have been turned into Tarry the Lop Eared Rabbit, and the mage definitely needs to rebuff. Lets run this combat. The terrasque and the party are approaching each other across a vast empty plain. We will pretend that the party rogue is elven, and has full ranks in spot for level 9 (13), and we will even be generous and assume the rogue has not used wisdom as a dump stat - its merely a 10. This gives him a total spot modifier of +15. The tarrasque mean while has a spot of +17. Unfortunately for the tarrasque's hiding capability, he is collosal in size, giving him -16 to his hide. Given that he is trying to spot the whole party not a single medium sized member of the party, i am counting them as 1 large create (-4 to their hide). I am also assuming the party knows nothing about the Tarrasque, seeing as they couldnt possibly make the Knowledge checks to learn anything. I will assume the wizard decides, however irrationally, that he will spam his Baleful Polymorph as much as he can at the T. If we go by 'definite' spotted distance, then the party would spot the T at a distance of 310ft. The T would spot them at 210ft. Already however, we can meet one part of the T mauling everyone - if he manages to spot them first, and there is a chance he can between 400 and 300ft, then he can charge the party with a rush, 300ft range, which would severly mess up the party. Basically, someone, if not everyone, would die. His rush would take him into melee, and the charge would potentially mess everyone up bad - whoever got charged would be knocked prone & 10ft back, while everyone would be forced to make a DC 36 will save or remain shaken for as long as they are within 60ft of the tarrasque. Anyways, assuming that the definite spots happened, this would give the Party 5 turns to buff up, assuming they stopped moving to get ready. In this time, the wizard would be able to fly up to his mostly safe height of 110ft (it would take him 2 rounds. he would go to this height because 60ft above the tarrasque is the range on his Practiced Spell Caster enhanced Baleful Polymorph). If the rogue had 14 charisma, and full ranks in UMD, enough ranks in Decipher Script for a synergy bonus, and a +2 UMD feat, then he would have a total bonus of +19. To use a scroll of Greater Invisibility he must make DC 27, for which he needs to roll an 8 or more (65% likely i think, its 2am here...) Using a Wand is DC 20 no matter what the caster level, but the rogue doesnt have the spell greater invis on his spell list (or a spell list at all), and so cannot use a wand. You know what, its 10 past 2 here in nz, im just going to switch to summary mode. If the whole party gets in there with transforming +1 weapons, and have greater invis on them, then each of them needs a buff every 7 rounds. At best, the rogue would have to get UMDing on the 4th round, but he's likely to fail one of those. If he does not rebuff them before it expires, the tarrasque will eat one of them. Merely getting to the tarrasque when it is 210ft away (5 rounds of the tarrasque moving forward, to its spot range) would take 2 rounds for the rogue to run to the tarrasque (light armour, assuming he doesnt have run), while the fighter and cleric would take 4 rounds (this does include the Tarrasque moving forward. If the rogue buffed himself first, then in the turn the fighter and cleric reach the T, he needs to rebuff himself, then each of them. Should he fail, which there is a 35% chance of, the one that he fails on has a 5% chance of not being eaten whole and being unable to get out (he just couldnt match the tarrasques regen in order to cut himself out). These three wouldnt stand much of a chance to seriously damage the T though, as their damage would not outmatch his 858HP and 40HP/round regen. So the real battle is going on 60ft above the top of the tarrasques back. I have included the other teammates in this example because i know no player would just go: its a tarrasque, time for the mage to stand a small chance of showing us how life will be in the high levels (that is to say, wizard nuking everything while the fighters clap politely). They would get in there. The wizard either has scrolls of B.P., or a wand. Either way, this plan requires a lot of money, or an even higher chance of failure. Anyways, if we assume the wizard casts greater invis after reaching 110ft, then it would be 4 turns before he reached his spot above the T. At this point, he would have 10 rounds before he needs to recast greater invis (assuming he cast it himself, not from a wand or scroll). He uses this turn to cast Assay (for maximum availability of the spell). It is now 9 turns till he needs to recast greater invis, and 14 till he needs to recast Assay. For 8 turns, he spams Baleful polymorph. By the end of the 8 turns, there is a 69.8% chance the T is unaffected. 9th turn he recasts greater invis, and then spams 4 more poly. After these 4, there is a 56.9% chance the T is still unaffected. Next turn he recasts assay, then continues spamming for another 4 rounds. Now we're at 46.3% chance T is unaffected. he recasts greater invis, and keeps going for more rounds. i can't be bothered detailing the wizard much more, we all get the point. Its ponderous, and super resource heavy, but he can do it. Whats the T up to during this time? i assume he is trying to spot the fleas that are pestering him. If the party is down there, as i have assumed, there is a chance he can hit them - he would be able to determine that something is hitting his feet, so it would be reasonable for him to take swings down there. where he hits or not is another thing, but he can. According to the PHB, spot can let you see invis targets on a check of 20+ (PHB, page 83, 2nd paragraph of spot skill:check), which he could use to determine the parties potential positions. Anyways, its 2:43am, and i have to get back up in a couple of hours. In conclusion to my horrifically long post: I was partially wrong with regards to Northern Bears spamcannon tactic - it is possible for the mage to get past the T's Spell penetration entirely. However, i disagree that this example, of a flying invisible mage spamming the same spell many, many times, to be a reasonable example of makign the T a wimp, or not worth its CR. Firstly, all things must be balanced for core first and foremost, for which northern bear, you agreed it was appropriate. Secondly, to spam something so much, when all the response a caster gets to a failure is 'your spell failed' (PHB 177, suceeding on a saving throw) is irrational, and would require metagaming for someone to keep that up for long enough for it to stand any sort of chance of succeeding. As far as wealth goes, i cant be bothered calculating it right now, but that gear can be pretty costly, while at the same time, if i were a wizard, and could make it, i would get my hands on a baleful poly wand too. though this fight would stand a good chance of using most of its charges.
Ace_of_time 06-22-07, 11:06 AM	I guess this wasn't made clear last time I posted it but that is a 5th level spell and as such can not be made into a wand. That only leaves srolls since there is no way a 10th level wizard is going to have enough spell slots to do that.
dman11235 06-22-07, 11:50 AM	Practiced spellcaster only increases your caster level up to your HD. So the wizard's CL is still only 9. So if you take 10 with Assay, you fail to overcome SR. It is possible to go even more over the wealth curve, and get the +1CL ioun stone! (if you are lv. 11, then you overcome by taking 10)
Vanigo 06-22-07, 02:38 PM	So where is the rules on attacking down.I don't think it's explicitly addressed anywhere, but I'd treat it just like attacking sideways or up. And I'd like to point out that the fact that it's not explicitly addressed seems to indicate that WotC doesn't seem to think it needs to be addressed, which makes me think that they think that it's already covered implicitly somewhere else - probably the general rules on reach. A roper is tall and not long does that mean you count it as biped.Yep. It's got those tentacley strands, after all. I don't use the illustration for any thing but to show what the creature looks like when asked and to get a idea of which rules to use and thats only after reading the entry. Your the one that looked at the pic and decide through math there vert reach.True, but only after you had asked me to. I said it would be up to the DM since there wasn't really rules on telling whether its biped or not.I also say it's up to the DM, I simply say that whether it's a biped or not is not the judgement that needs to be made, it's whether the thing is taller than it is long. How is anything I tell you going to tell the people that read this thread whether the Big T is a wimp or not. If your looking for rules advice I think that's somewhere else.I started this discussion to correct what I perceived as a rules error in an argument made while discussing that topic. Correcting the error affects the argument and therefore the discussion about whether the Tarrasque is a wimp or not. I'll admit that this has since ballooned past the point where it's helpful, but that's as much your fault as mine. As for attacking down since you wouldn't even consider using vertical reach as vertical mêlée reach then attacking down would come up about as often as whether it was a bipeded flier or four footed flier.Sure, the way I play it, but what about how you do things?
Ace_of_time 06-22-07, 04:01 PM	I don't think it's explicitly addressed anywhere, but I'd treat it just like attacking sideways or up. And I'd like to point out that the fact that it's not explicitly addressed seems to indicate that WotC doesn't seem to think it needs to be addressed, which makes me think that they think that it's already covered implicitly somewhere else - probably the general rules on reach. Yep. It's got those tentacley strands, after all. True, but only after you had asked me to. I also say it's up to the DM, I simply say that whether it's a biped or not is not the judgement that needs to be made, it's whether the thing is taller than it is long. I started this discussion to correct what I perceived as a rules error in an argument made while discussing that topic. Correcting the error affects the argument and therefore the discussion about whether the Tarrasque is a wimp or not. I'll admit that this has since ballooned past the point where it's helpful, but that's as much your fault as mine. Sure, the way I play it, but what about how you do things? I sit down with my group, We play, I look up monsters when need, and we have fun. If there is a rules question I make the call. That is about it. Grapple is not a mêlée attack. I was only trying to point out that the wizards using that way would have to well beyond just his mêlée reach because it would easily be able to reach up a little further and grab something. Some rules they leave open for the DM to use his best judgment on. Like the take 20 action. They tell how you should tell whether to let a PC take one but not what skills to let them take on. Thinking that a DM should be able to tell for them selves. The tentacley strands as you put it have there own reach 50' and then the roper has his own reach of 10'. With your way he would be able to reach up 18' as to no vert reach my way and just his reg reach of 10' and then his tentacley strands.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-22-07, 04:22 PM	Hey, **** head. Why don't you go **** yourself.You could have posted something better than proving my call correct... It is possible to go even more over the wealth curve, and get the +1CL ioun stone! (if you are lv. 11, then you overcome by taking 10) While we are ignoring wealth by level here. Why not ignore the guide lines of wish... Buy two scrolls of wish. A "I wish you were dead" & "I wish you would stay dead!" later, you won. And it only costs 57,650gp. :P
dknight100 06-22-07, 07:42 PM	While we are ignoring wealth by level here. Why not ignore the guide lines of wish... Buy two scrolls of wish. A "I wish you were dead" & "I wish you would stay dead!" later, you won. And it only costs 57,650gp. :P This would be funniest using not scrolls, but a genie or something. I know it probably would grant a wish to kill itself, but as DM id take "i wish you were dead" literally just for the sake of seeing a player summon a genie then tell it to kill itself. dman, thanks for pointing that out, i should have gone into the fine text. Spell resistance still just as much of a factor as i always said it was after all. So not so much good came from my big post, other than you've got to bank on your party spotting the T from outside his rushing charge range, else its a TPK right there (for a low level party, or medium. mostly likely not for a 15+ level party, but thats because as has been established, they should be able to take the T) ::EDIT:: Oh yea, more on wealth levels. Each member of a 9th level group should have 36,000gp 'wealth' This would include scrolls, their gear etc. I've already pointed out that just enough scrolls of baleful polymorph, even scribed by the wizard, would cost 53% of his total wealth, and that much would only stand a 50% chance of defeating the T (if we look solely at the chance that the wizard overcomes SR, and the T fails his save). When we add in his own gear, and even the gear of the group we find that the party would have to be equipped like paupers to stand even that 50% chance of doing it. Luckily for them, with baleful polymorph they wont need the wish spell. The wizard would just need to beg the DM to allow him to make the TBunny his familiar after the fight (seriously, if you managed to turn the T into a harmless creature, you would so want it as a familiar). Similarly, transforming weapons would cost just over (thanks to the cost of a masterwork weapon) half of a 9th level characters wealth.
Ace_of_time 06-22-07, 11:21 PM	:rofl: :rofl: You could have posted something better than proving my call correct... While we are ignoring wealth by level here. Why not ignore the guide lines of wish... Buy two scrolls of wish. A "I wish you were dead" & "I wish you would stay dead!" later, you won. And it only costs 57,650gp. :P:rofl: I like that one.
Ace_of_time 06-22-07, 11:28 PM	This would be funniest using not scrolls, but a genie or something. I know it probably would grant a wish to kill itself, but as DM id take "i wish you were dead" literally just for the sake of seeing a player summon a genie then tell it to kill itself. dman, thanks for pointing that out, i should have gone into the fine text. Spell resistance still just as much of a factor as i always said it was after all. So not so much good came from my big post, other than you've got to bank on your party spotting the T from outside his rushing charge range, else its a TPK right there (for a low level party, or medium. mostly likely not for a 15+ level party, but thats because as has been established, they should be able to take the T) ::EDIT:: Oh yea, more on wealth levels. Each member of a 9th level group should have 36,000gp 'wealth' This would include scrolls, their gear etc. I've already pointed out that just enough scrolls of baleful polymorph, even scribed by the wizard, would cost 53% of his total wealth, and that much would only stand a 50% chance of defeating the T (if we look solely at the chance that the wizard overcomes SR, and the T fails his save). When we add in his own gear, and even the gear of the group we find that the party would have to be equipped like paupers to stand even that 50% chance of doing it. Luckily for them, with baleful polymorph they wont need the wish spell. The wizard would just need to beg the DM to allow him to make the TBunny his familiar after the fight (seriously, if you managed to turn the T into a harmless creature, you would so want it as a familiar). Similarly, transforming weapons would cost just over (thanks to the cost of a masterwork weapon) half of a 9th level characters wealth. Just a point but there is a feat that drops cost of making them 25%. Just FYI.
Phalo 06-23-07, 03:06 PM	This is not really revelent but i found my pocket advanced Dungeons and Dragons MM2 1983 (got it when i was younger) Anyhow It has all the old stats and a picture that more upright. also it said the T bite counts as a sword of sharpness. It also gave its regeneration as 1/round. so seems T has been upgraded abit from oldtimes.
Ace_of_time 06-23-07, 05:24 PM	That back when the sword of wonding was good thing to use on regen.
dman11235 06-23-07, 05:52 PM	Most fun way to imprison the T EVER!!! Make a sphere of imovable rods inside it's gizzard. About 300 will do. Most fun way to defeat it: get your intire party eaten and have the wizard blast it from the inside where there is no carapace.
Ace_of_time 06-23-07, 07:50 PM	It would be hard. Immunty to acid and some DR blug. Is there any race that has both.
dman11235 06-24-07, 12:37 AM	That's what the cleric is for. Also, mass energy res. acid, as the spell. And........The results from today!!! Tarrasque vs. party of one rogue, one cleric, one wizard, and one fighter! Winner(?): The party! Resources used: one dead rogue, most of the fighter's HP, some of the cleric's HP. Also used: time stop, prismatic wall, immovable rod, oil of light (you guys will get a kick out of what happened), divine power, fire ball, divine favor, righteous might, summon monster 9 elder earth elemental), summon monster 8 (x2) (celestial triceratops), slow, haste, salve of slipperiness, grt. magic weapon (x5), permanency, magic vestment (x4), extended keen edge, extended unseen servant, heroes' feast, and foresight. That was slightly more than 20%. Okay, so what happened was this: round one! Every one sees each other. Cleric casts divine power and righteous might (metamg. rod quicken, lesser). Wizard hastes us. T charges the cleric and hits (Oh no!), and starts to grapple him. Fighter charges T and hits, not much damage, but some. Rogue (delayed from first) tumbles around to SA the T in his butt. Once again, some damage, but not much. Pretty ordenary first round. Round two! Cleric does NOTHING. Wizard casts time stop, and summons one elder earth elemental right next to the T, and two celestial triceratops a good distance away, so they can charge. T swallows cleric, and gets the fighter with the rest of his attacks. Fighter: FULL ATTACK!! for about 160 damage, after reduction (he criticaled. With a x3. And rolled max.). Rogue: same idea, more damage. Now the T is at about 600. Round three! Cleric full attacks the gizzard for a total of 1 damage. Wizard casts acid fog, and the summoned charge/full attack for about 70 after reduction. T takes a couple from acid. T full attacks the fighter, for 111 or so (It was probably more, but the details aren't important). Fighter is in mouth. Rogue SAs for 150 or so. Round four! Cleric quickens a divine favor, and full attacks. And criticals once, puting him at 39 of the 50 needed. Wizard attempts to slow the T, but fails (made his will save). Summoned monsters full attack, doing about 160. T swallows fighter, and full attacks rogue. Rogue brought down to 90 HP. Fighter full attacks! And does nothing! Rogue, being smart, full attacks, for about 170. Round five! Cleric cast blade barrier! T makes his save, takes 29 damage. Wizard casts fireball, T takes nothing, summoned takes T down to 847 out of 858. T full attacks rogue, brings him to -10 exactly, and finishes with a tail slap on a triceratops. Fighter releases a immovable rod, and oil of light (yes, the spell. The Tarrasque's innards are now glowy.). Rogue is DEAD! Round six! cleric: blade barrier does damage, not enough to drop it thanks to regen., and then full attacks to drop it unconsious. wizard does nothing because the monster is slain. Fighter coup de graces the T droping it to -142 They start walking away. Before they get to far, the T is back up, and they look CONFUSED (in game only, of course)! The T gets up, only to be "killed" again by the blade barrier. After this happens for a few rounds, the wizard decides to permanency a prismatic wall over the T, so as it gets up, it hits it. Rmember, there is still an immovable rod inside it. And activated. The T gets up, and rips the rod through it's flesh, causing damage sufficient to drop it. It gets up one more time, and fails it's save against insanity of the wall. There is now an insane T in the wolrd. But remember, any time it hit the wall, it takes damage as well, some it just keeps getting up until it fails it's save against being sent to another plane. There is now an insane Tarrasque wandering the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium. Edit: I even forgot about awesome blow! Immagine what would have happened then... But the T could have really wanted a snack, and thus not wanted to hit it's snack away.
Vanigo 06-24-07, 03:33 AM	I sit down with my group, We play, I look up monsters when need, and we have fun. If there is a rules question I make the call. That is about it.That's all well and good, but how is this relevant? Grapple is not a mêlée attack.It starts with one. You have to make a melee touch attack to initiate a grapple - unless you have and use Improved Grab, but that also works off a melee attack. I was only trying to point out that the wizards using that way would have to well beyond just his mêlée reach because it would easily be able to reach up a little further and grab something.Yes, and I was disputing this claim. Some rules they leave open for the DM to use his best judgment on. Like the take 20 action. They tell how you should tell whether to let a PC take one but not what skills to let them take on. Thinking that a DM should be able to tell for them selves....what's your point? The tentacley strands as you put it have there own reach 50' and then the roper has his own reach of 10'. With your way he would be able to reach up 18' as to no vert reach my way and just his reg reach of 10' and then his tentacley strands....what? That's... kinda hard to parse... Okay, if you're saying what I think you're saying, then, yeah, I'd say it would be able to fire its strands 50' straight up, but that's because of its Strands special attack, not its anatomy. And, honestly, if it came up in a game, the roper's anatomy is peculiar enough that I'd give it a bit more thought than "is this guy tall or long." I'd still use the vertical reach for Large creatures as a starting point, though. (Besides, the roper's 10' horizontal reach with its bite doesn't make any sense either. Ropers are just weird.)
Ace_of_time 06-24-07, 12:28 PM	That's all well and good, but how is this relevant? It starts with one. You have to make a melee touch attack to initiate a grapple - unless you have and use Improved Grab, but that also works off a melee attack. Yes, and I was disputing this claim. ...what's your point? ...what? That's... kinda hard to parse... Okay, if you're saying what I think you're saying, then, yeah, I'd say it would be able to fire its strands 50' straight up, but that's because of its Strands special attack, not its anatomy. And, honestly, if it came up in a game, the roper's anatomy is peculiar enough that I'd give it a bit more thought than "is this guy tall or long." I'd still use the vertical reach for Large creatures as a starting point, though. (Besides, the roper's 10' horizontal reach with its bite doesn't make any sense either. Ropers are just weird.) Which is why I said that the DM would have to use his best judgment on this one because no matter how you try to tell which rules to use there will always be an oddball. What I'm saying is that if the creature stenches up then that would extend his mêlée attack reach. So your Big T Vert reach is I think 83' and for me that mean the last 20' of his vert reach would be his mêlée attack reach. That would put his mêlée attack reach from 63-83 instead of 50'-70'.
Ace_of_time 06-24-07, 01:49 PM	You could make a ghost pc. They changed Baleful polymorph in Player's Handbook v.3.5 Errata Baleful Polymorph Player’s Handbook, page 203 Replace the text of this spell with the following text. You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows: • The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores). • If the target has the shapechanger subtype, it retains that subtype. • The target retains its own hit points. • The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice. • The target also retains the ability to understand (but not to speak) the languages it understood in its original form. It can write in the languages it understands, but only the form is capable of writing in some manner (such as drawing in the dirt with a paw). With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features. All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature (for example, if you polymorphed a landbound target into a fish, or an airborne target into a toad), the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save. If the subject remains in the new form for 24 consecutive hours, it must attempt a Will save. If this save fails, it loses its ability to understand language, as well as all other memories of its previous form, and its Hit Dice and hit points change to match an average creature of its new form. These abilities and statistics return to normal if the effect is later ended. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action (which ends the spell’s effect Don't know if that helps or hurts your plan.
Phalo 06-24-07, 03:03 PM	Tarrasque vs. party of one rogue, one cleric, one wizard, and one fighter! Winner(?): The party! Resources used: one dead rogue, most of the fighter's HP, some of the cleric's HP. Also used: time stop, prismatic wall, immovable rod, oil of light (you guys will get a kick out of what happened), divine power, fire ball, divine favor, righteous might, summon monster 9 elder earth elemental), summon monster 8 (x2) (celestial triceratops), slow, haste, salve of slipperiness, grt. magic weapon (x5), permanency, magic vestment (x4), extended keen edge, extended unseen servant, heroes' feast, and foresight. That was slightly more than 20%. Okay, so what happened was this: round one! Every one sees each other. Cleric casts divine power and righteous might (metamg. rod quicken, lesser). Wizard hastes us. T charges the cleric and hits (Oh no!), and starts to grapple him. Fighter charges T and hits, not much damage, but some. Rogue (delayed from first) tumbles around to SA the T in his butt. Once again, some damage, but not much. Pretty ordenary first round. Round two! Cleric does NOTHING. Wizard casts time stop, and summons one elder earth elemental right next to the T, and two celestial triceratops a good distance away, so they can charge. T swallows cleric, and gets the fighter with the rest of his attacks. Fighter: FULL ATTACK!! for about 160 damage, after reduction (he criticaled. With a x3. And rolled max.). Rogue: same idea, more damage. Now the T is at about 600. Round three! Cleric full attacks the gizzard for a total of 1 damage. Wizard casts acid fog, and the summoned charge/full attack for about 70 after reduction. T takes a couple from acid. T full attacks the fighter, for 111 or so (It was probably more, but the details aren't important). Fighter is in mouth. Rogue SAs for 150 or so. Round four! Cleric quickens a divine favor, and full attacks. And criticals once, puting him at 39 of the 50 needed. Wizard attempts to slow the T, but fails (made his will save). Summoned monsters full attack, doing about 160. T swallows fighter, and full attacks rogue. Rogue brought down to 90 HP. Fighter full attacks! And does nothing! Rogue, being smart, full attacks, for about 170. Round five! Cleric cast blade barrier! T makes his save, takes 29 damage. Wizard casts fireball, T takes nothing, summoned takes T down to 847 out of 858. T full attacks rogue, brings him to -10 exactly, and finishes with a tail slap on a triceratops. Fighter releases a immovable rod, and oil of light (yes, the spell. The Tarrasque's innards are now glowy.). Rogue is DEAD! Round six! cleric: blade barrier does damage, not enough to drop it thanks to regen., and then full attacks to drop it unconsious. wizard does nothing because the monster is slain. Fighter coup de graces the T droping it to -142 They start walking away. Before they get to far, the T is back up, and they look CONFUSED (in game only, of course)! The T gets up, only to be "killed" again by the blade barrier. After this happens for a few rounds, the wizard decides to permanency a prismatic wall over the T, so as it gets up, it hits it. Rmember, there is still an immovable rod inside it. And activated. The T gets up, and rips the rod through it's flesh, causing damage sufficient to drop it. It gets up one more time, and fails it's save against insanity of the wall. There is now an insane T in the wolrd. But remember, any time it hit the wall, it takes damage as well, some it just keeps getting up until it fails it's save against being sent to another plane. There is now an insane Tarrasque wandering the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium. Edit: I even forgot about awesome blow! Immagine what would have happened then... But the T could have really wanted a snack, and thus not wanted to hit it's snack away. Just looking at this scene i can see a few things that don't sit well with me. I may be reading wrong but here are my thoughts. round 1.A your cleric has a movement of probably 20 due to heavy armor. so you could not make it though the reach of T with out provoking at least one AoO so thats one bite on your cleric. From the get go. 33hp round 1.B I am assuming that all your characters have epic weapons and are level 20. so your rouges sneak attack is only doing 10d6 thats only 20hp damage on a perfect roll round 1.C Fighter good. Round 2.A wizard is good. round 2.B Cleric should be dead Big T gets full attack this round assuming average rolls 107hp Thats 140. Round 3.A wizard T immune to acid.
dman11235 06-24-07, 03:47 PM	T not immune to acid, only fire. Cleric speed 30 ft (boots strding and springing) and cast two spells, and stayed outside of T reach. Cleric has DR 9/evil and 3/- (yes, they don't stack, but just incase...). Cleric has 190 HP. Players have +5 weapons, but are doing in excess of 50 damage each hit, out paces DR and regen. 10d6 + 1d4 +1d6 acid + 1 for the rogue. Four attacks = an average of 27 PER HIT. Also, he rolled REALLY WELL, and got an average of 32 per hit. That times four. Throw in criticals for more damage. They rolled well, the T rolled average, and it still was a challenge. I think that's case enough for it to remain at CR 20. Actually, the rogue had more HP than the cleric, due to the higher con. But then the cleric cast divine power and righteous might, both increasing the HP of the cleric. Look up the spells. I said that the HP values each turn weren't exact, because I couldn't remember the EXACT damage dealt each round. The point is, it was an appropriate CR for the party.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-24-07, 04:17 PM	Tarrasque vs. party of one rogue, one cleric, one wizard, and one fighter! Winner(?): The party! Resources used: one dead rogue, most of the fighter's HP, some of the cleric's HP. Also used: time stop, prismatic wall, immovable rod, oil of light (you guys will get a kick out of what happened), divine power, fire ball, divine favor, righteous might, summon monster 9 elder earth elemental), summon monster 8 (x2) (celestial triceratops), slow, haste, salve of slipperiness, grt. magic weapon (x5), permanency, magic vestment (x4), extended keen edge, extended unseen servant, heroes' feast, and foresight. That was slightly more than 20%. One dead rogue, how did that work out? You toss the corpse at it to feed it? :P Okay, so what happened was this: round one! Every one sees each other. Cleric casts divine power and righteous might (metamg. rod quicken, lesser). Wizard hastes us. T charges the cleric and hits (Oh no!), and starts to grapple him. Fighter charges T and hits, not much damage, but some. Rogue (delayed from first) tumbles around to SA the T in his butt. Once again, some damage, but not much. Pretty ordenary first round. ok. Round two! Cleric does NOTHING. Wizard casts time stop, and summons one elder earth elemental right next to the T, and two celestial triceratops a good distance away, so they can charge. T swallows cleric, and gets the fighter with the rest of his attacks. Fighter: FULL ATTACK!! for about 160 damage, after reduction (he criticaled. With a x3. And rolled max.). Rogue: same idea, more damage. Now the T is at about 600. Hire a different cleric next time. Please explain how the fighter dealt 160 on a full attack when each hit loses 15 points of damage since his weapon is mostly likely not a +5 bane (magical beasts) weapon. Using ToB's time stands still + snap kick + raging mongoose and assuming all attacks hit and 30 str and a +5 greatsword and full BAB the warblade deals 156 after DR on his 13 attacks. Note the 13 attacks, not 5 attacks plus a x3 crit on one of them. Round three! Cleric full attacks the gizzard for a total of 1 damage. Wizard casts acid fog, and the summoned charge/full attack for about 70 after reduction. T takes a couple from acid. T full attacks the fighter, for 111 or so (It was probably more, but the details aren't important). Fighter is in mouth. Rogue SAs for 150 or so.So why post any of this beyond the fact the party won and spent almost 20% of it's resources if the details aren't important? Round four! Cleric quickens a divine favor, and full attacks. And criticals once, puting him at 39 of the 50 needed. Wizard attempts to slow the T, but fails (made his will save). Summoned monsters full attack, doing about 160. T swallows fighter, and full attacks rogue. Rogue brought down to 90 HP. Fighter full attacks! And does nothing! Rogue, being smart, full attacks, for about 170.So rub it in... I hope fighter comes back to haunt you. Poor fighter. ...At least he is a drownball champion. :D Round five! Cleric cast blade barrier! T makes his save, takes 29 damage. Wizard casts fireball, T takes nothing, summoned takes T down to 847 out of 858. T full attacks rogue, brings him to -10 exactly, and finishes with a tail slap on a triceratops. Fighter releases a immovable rod, and oil of light (yes, the spell. The Tarrasque's innards are now glowy.). Rogue is DEAD! Hey, the fighter was useful! Round six! cleric: blade barrier does damage, not enough to drop it thanks to regen., and then full attacks to drop it unconsious. wizard does nothing because the monster is slain. Fighter coup de graces the T droping it to -142 They start walking away. Before they get to far, the T is back up, and they look CONFUSED (in game only, of course)! The T gets up, only to be "killed" again by the blade barrier. After this happens for a few rounds, the wizard decides to permanency a prismatic wall over the T, so as it gets up, it hits it. Rmember, there is still an immovable rod inside it. And activated. The T gets up, and rips the rod through it's flesh, causing damage sufficient to drop it. It gets up one more time, and fails it's save against insanity of the wall. There is now an insane T in the wolrd. But remember, any time it hit the wall, it takes damage as well, some it just keeps getting up until it fails it's save against being sent to another plane. There is now an insane Tarrasque wandering the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium. You only suffer the effects of prismatic wall for passing though it. It says nothing about standing in it and even if it did, the effects whould happen on the wizard's turn. Big T's go, it regenerates 40hp and knows it cannot move after it tries from somthing being stuck in its gut. It makes a choice and... It moves and rips out the rod, dealing 50 to it after it moves. How can the rod deal damage from being ripped out if the tarrasque never actully moved? It bides its time, on the wizards go the wall hits the tarrasque for a random effect. Red, does nothing. Orange, knocks it back down if it fails it's reflex save. Yellow, knocks it back down. Green, does nothing. Blue, does nothing unless it fails it's fort save. Indigo, becomes insane (acting almost like normal) if it fails a will save. Violet, planesshifted to a random plane, possible visting a plane where a demon casts an awaken spell on it and gives it magical items before kicking it back. If it don't pass out again on it's next go it just walks away. Edit: I even forgot about awesome blow! Immagine what would have happened then... But the T could have really wanted a snack, and thus not wanted to hit it's snack away. Yeah, what about that ability? It could have prevented one of fighter's full attacks while it was shallowing the rouge.What could it do with another 160HP... Kill the cleric and fighter on it's next full attack since their both nearly (if not) dead already? You also forgot the extra 25,000gp dimond and 9th level spell slot to cast true resurrection the dead rouge. Assuming the cleric was still alive... In all, not to bad of a fight, the DM forgot the monster's abilities, someone died, two more almost did, the wizard snickers at the party with his full hp. Throw in comments of someone spilling their dew or beer, claims of a die being unlucky so the player needs another one, big fish comments and you'll have your run of the mill gaming session.
dman11235 06-24-07, 04:31 PM	Prismatic wall does all of it's effects at once, when the T's massive body goes through it standing up. That's how the rod ripped through the body, as it stood up. I rolled d% to see if the rod would rip out each time the T moved, I.E. when it fell, and each time it got up. He actually failed his strength check to move the first couple of times. Funny thing, is, there were no spilt dews, and no unlucky dice...
dman11235 06-24-07, 04:32 PM	Oh, and I posted the rest of the stuff because no one would take my word that that happened. The details I was refering to were the HP totals at every second, and the exact rolls. All I have to say is oh dear Pelor! An Awakened Tarrasque with magic items!! RUN!!!!!
dknight100 06-24-07, 04:54 PM	I was just thinking about this in the weekend, but if you did manage to baleful polymorph a Tarrasque, it would be awesome (awesomely evil) to take it into a city, put it in like, the town hall, then break enchantment it.
dman11235 06-24-07, 05:00 PM	Yeah, it would. Make sure you have a leash to control it with. And make sure you have some plastic bags handy as well.
Vanigo 06-24-07, 05:06 PM	Which is why I said that the DM would have to use his best judgment on this one because no matter how you try to tell which rules to use there will always be an oddball. What I'm saying is that if the creature stenches up then that would extend his mêlée attack reach. So your Big T Vert reach is I think 83' and for me that mean the last 20' of his vert reach would be his mêlée attack reach. That would put his mêlée attack reach from 63-83 instead of 50'-70'. Oh, well in that case all you have to do to be safe from the Tarrasque is stay 50' off the ground directly above him.:rolleyes: (You could do it, too - have the whole party on a flying carpet or something and have one guy keep readying an action to follow Big T wherever he goes.) Seriously, what is the rationale behind your continual insistence that vertical reach and vertical melee reach are the same thing? I mean, can you punch something above your head that you can just barely touch?
dknight100 06-24-07, 05:36 PM	actually, just to clarify the vertical reach thing, as i thought it was kinda clear in the mm. the tarrasque, while in its standard not quite a quadruped 'long' stance, has 50' height. A long creatures maximum vertical height is stated in the MM (can't quote page at the moment, books are back at the apartment) at being its horizontal length (it doesn't say 'assuming the creature can rear up', but this is obviously what it describes). This would give the T a rearing up vertical height of 70', with his reach of 20' making his maximum attackable height 90' ::EDIT:: Re - the tail thing. Yes, the T does have a big tail he uses for balancing, which mean it is probably at least semi-rigid. But as far as Dnd goes, this doesnt matter. Dragons shouldnt really be able to fly unless their wings were way bigger, and an ancient unexplored dungeon should not logically be populated room to room with challenging encounters that havent just eaten each other, but we just overlook them too.
Ace_of_time 06-24-07, 07:26 PM	Oh, well in that case all you have to do to be safe from the Tarrasque is stay 50' off the ground directly above him.:rolleyes: (You could do it, too - have the whole party on a flying carpet or something and have one guy keep readying an action to follow Big T wherever he goes.) Seriously, what is the rationale behind your continual insistence that vertical reach and vertical melee reach are the same thing? I mean, can you punch something above your head that you can just barely touch? Since I have not made it clear enough to you. I am not saying they are the same I'm saying that melee attack reach is included in the vert reach ammount. I think dknight100 explained it better then I have been.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 06-25-07, 12:25 AM	Prismatic wall does all of it's effects at once, when the T's massive body goes through it standing up. Prismatic Wall <snip> Violet 7th Energy field destroys all objects and effects.1 Creatures sent to another plane (Will negates). Dispel magic 1 The violet effect makes the special effects of the other six colors redundant, but these six effects are included here because certain magic items can create prismatic effects one color at a time, and spell resistance might render some colors ineffective (see above). The last one removes the rod. Also if the wall is above a prone tarrasque it can crawl away moving 5 feet per round without suffering the effects of the wall what so ever. That's how the rod ripped through the body, as it stood up. I rolled d% to see if the rod would rip out each time the T moved, I.E. when it fell, and each time it got up. He actually failed his strength check to move the first couple of times. Funny thing, is, there were no spilt dews, and no unlucky dice... Your babbling. You don't roll a % die and call it a str check. The rod will rip out of it's 50hp belly with the same effects of someone hacking their way out. It gets the rod out in one turn, not 10+. Immovable Rod: This rod is a flat iron bar with a small button on one end. When the button is pushed (a move action), the rod does not move from where it is, even if staying in place defies gravity. Thus, the owner can lift or place the rod wherever he wishes, push the button, and let go. Several immovable rods can even make a ladder when used together (although only two are needed). An immovable rod can support up to 8,000 pounds before falling to the ground. If a creature pushes against an immovable rod, it must make a DC 30 Strength check to move the rod up to 10 feet in a single round. The tarrasque stands up the rod fails supporting 360,000 pounds of force on it's bottem side and it "falls" upward with the rest of the 180 tons of flesh. Here look at it this way. Str of 25 has a 534–800 range for heavy loads. x4 for 35's range (2,136), x4 again for 45's range (8,544). As a move action the tarrasque can break the 8,000lb limit on the rod by trying to pick it up. The str check is only for those people who cannot lift 8,000 pounds, like a humanoid with 20 str whos best case is to try and drag 2,000 pounds 5 feet as a full round action. There is no way that humanoid could EVER move the rod since the rod refuses to move untill 8,000 pounds of force is pressed against it. Yet with a str check they can move it 10 feet on a roll of 20 as a move action... @everyone else, dman11235's example is great. Not only it showcase the 25% rule and kill the rouge in a horrifect death, but it does it while forgetting details of the items used and spells cast in a favorable way to the PCs. It's also a very realistic encounter and proves the tarrasque is worth it's CR no matter how how many examples of a metagamed wizard that blows 250% of their weath over 20 turns for a 50% win chance of beating it at level 10 pop up.
dman11235 06-25-07, 01:04 AM	I guess it is a moot point about the rod, though, since what the rod did had no affect on the outcome. Our points are made, the Tarrasque is worthy of CR 20. EDIT: the rod probably should have been destroyed earlier by the gizzard, but I ignored that.
Vanigo 06-25-07, 11:39 PM	Since I have not made it clear enough to you. I am not saying they are the same I'm saying that melee attack reach is included in the vert reach ammount. I think dknight100 explained it better then I have been. Melee attack reach included in the vertical reach amount... melee reach... included... What the heck are you talking about? Are you trying to say that the Tarrasque is 108 feet tall, and its melee reach covers the remaining 20' to get the rest of the way to 128'? That doesn't really jive with what you were saying at the beginning of this argument, where you didn't address melee reach at all - which could be chalked up to you being really bad at explaining yourself, I suppose. Still, that'd mean that a typical human is three feet tall, with the remainder of his 8' vertical reach coming from his melee reach. Oh, and a halfling would be -1 feet tall. So I doubt that's what you're trying to say, but I can't think of any other interpretations. You also say that dknight has explained it better than you though, so let's look at that. actually, just to clarify the vertical reach thing, as i thought it was kinda clear in the mm. the tarrasque, while in its standard not quite a quadruped 'long' stance, has 50' height. A long creatures maximum vertical height is stated in the MM (can't quote page at the moment, books are back at the apartment) at being its horizontal length (it doesn't say 'assuming the creature can rear up', but this is obviously what it describes). This would give the T a rearing up vertical height of 70', with his reach of 20' making his maximum attackable height 90'Well, this is certainly more comprehensible. Thank you, dknight. (It also doesn't even mention the jump skill table, and my assertion from the beginning was that that table doesn't have any bearing on how high above his head Big T can attack. This is a completely different position from the one Ace_of_Time was taking early in the argument.) So, examining this: You make a good case, but I can't find anything to that effect in my copy of the MM. Are you sure that's what it says? That'd be pretty strange, given that it'd mean a purple worm could stand its entire 80'-long body on end. If it does say that somewhere, though, you're definitely right.
dknight100 06-26-07, 12:29 AM	The rules dont handle creatures that arent biped or quadruped very well, though 3.5v at least (i cant recall if 3.0 did) includes the Long and Tall types, which are not neccesarily related to how many legs they walk on, if legs at all. In the MM, it stats that the maximum vertical reach for a long creature is its length. As i've mention, this obviously describes a creature rearing up on its hind legs, however, the entry i'm basing this off does not say "long creatures with hind legs" it says long creatures. One can picture a purple worm rearing up to a position where most of its body was vertical, leaving a small 'foot' on the ground. Exactly what height this would be if Dnd were a precision model for reality, i don't know, but for ease of use, not to mention that its all the detail i can find on the matter rules wise, a purple worm can indeed plonk itself on one end and reach its entire length into the air. Regarding jump. I suppose a creature could jump to increase its height. However, its jump does not affect its reach, it affects the creatures position. I'm sorry if i'm a bit shaky on the details of the whole reach/quadruped/biped discussion, until now i havent really been focusing on it.
Vanigo 06-26-07, 12:38 AM	In the MM, it stats that the maximum vertical reach for a long creature is its length. As i've mention, this obviously describes a creature rearing up on its hind legs, however, the entry i'm basing this off does not say "long creatures with hind legs" it says long creatures. Sure, it's just... I can't find this rule anywhere in the MM. And I'm looking. If you don't have your books, can you find it in the SRD? And, come to think of it, I wouldn't think you'd be able to stretch out as tall as you possibly can, and then bite something 20' higher than that.
dknight100 06-26-07, 01:12 AM	If you treat horizontal length as a creatures complete horizontal lenght by that i mean its stretched right out, then any reach on a bite attack is illogical, whether it is biting upwards or not. To not require changing lots of other things, you either have to accept bite with reach to be an illogical mechanic made for ease of play, or that a creature is not at its full length. For ease of description, i'd just treat it as an illogical mechanic made for ease of play, "the worm darts forward, catching Todrek in its fearsome maw". Anyways, ill be heading back to my apartment soon, ill post my references then. ::EDIT:: I could have sworn i saw a table of this, but the closest thing i can find is the heigh/weight/reach tables, page 29 of the DMG and identical table the the page 314 of the MM. neither of these actually support my view (well, they are the same as each other). I may have misread the footnote on creature height, where is states that this is a "Biped's height, quadruped's body lenth (nose to tail)". This is funny, because it means that a long creature logically doesnt have reach on its bite, and that if they didnt make tall/long size divisions rather than biped/quadruped, they really should - in the table, a quadruped is a long creature, while a biped is a tall creature. Anyways, seeing as i'm wrong/had misread a table, feel free to keep discussion. Personally, i quite like my way of defining vertical reach.
Ace_of_time 06-26-07, 09:24 PM	I think I found something that might work on page 29 DMG under natural reach. You can pick which way would be right. As a general rule, consider creatures to be as tall as their space, meaning that a creature can reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach. Now taking that to mean that it can reach up in the air, then that would put it at 30' space + 30' stenching up + 20 reach=80. This makes the most sense to me. This would also be the best way to do it because it wouldn't matter if it was long or tall. OR: you could take it to mean 30' space + 20' reach = 50', but since he is 50' tall that doesn't make sense to me. OR: post your own way but I think the 1st one work well. For the human Max height is 8'+5 reach+ 13', With the 1st way he would be able to stretch up 15' (5' space+ 5' stretch+ 5' reach) and still attack anyone in the last 5'. Only 2 ' difference. Even if a wizard stayed above the thing's head he would still be able to five foot step then attack. It would be better to get a safe distance before casting spells.
Lunas_Argent 06-26-07, 10:54 PM	Has anyone thought to rebuild the Tarrasque as a dragon?
Vanigo 06-27-07, 01:41 AM	I think I found something that might work on page 29 DMG under natural reach. You can pick which way would be right. As a general rule, consider creatures to be as tall as their space, meaning that a creature can reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach. Now taking that to mean that it can reach up in the air, then that would put it at 30' space + 30' stenching up + 20 reach=80. This makes the most sense to me. This would also be the best way to do it because it wouldn't matter if it was long or tall. OR: you could take it to mean 30' space + 20' reach = 50', but since he is 50' tall that doesn't make sense to me. OR: post your own way but I think the 1st one work well.Oh, it's the second. That's where I got the 50' figure I gave in my first post in this thread. Seriously, where do you see anything about stretching in that quote? The only thing I can see that makes any kind of sense that remotely resembles method 1 is to say that being able to "reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach" means that that's how high it can stretch, and you can then add its reach again to get its total vertical attack distance, but that'd give you 30' space + 20' reach +20' reach = 70'. I don't think that's what the rules mean, though, since... it doesn't say anything about stretching anywhere. Now, granted, this doesn't work all that well for the Tarrasque - but then, really big Colossal creatures (like Big T) don't work that well for anything else, either. It's an inevitable consequence of having the size system top out at some point - a 500' monstrosity is still only Colossal, so things are bound to get wonky when you talk about the very large. In the case of Big T, it'd be perfectly reasonable to houserule that he's 50' tall and can therefore hit something 70' off the ground. For the human Max height is 8'+5 reach+ 13', With the 1st way he would be able to stretch up 15' (5' space+ 5' stretch+ 5' reach) and still attack anyone in the last 5'. Only 2 ' difference.The 10' figure you get with method 2 actually makes more sense IMHO. There's no way you're getting your fist more than 10' off the ground, and non-reach weapons aren't all that long - you might be able to get the tip of a broadsword 11' off the ground, but that's not going to do much good by way of attacking someone 10' off the ground. Granted, people will have their heads sticking out of the tops of their spaces, but that's not really any different from the Tarrasque's head and tail sticking out of the sides of his.
Ace_of_time 06-27-07, 11:07 AM	Oh, it's the second. That's where I got the 50' figure I gave in my first post in this thread. Seriously, where do you see anything about stretching in that quote? The only thing I can see that makes any kind of sense that remotely resembles method 1 is to say that being able to "reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach" means that that's how high it can stretch, and you can then add its reach again to get its total vertical attack distance, but that'd give you 30' space + 20' reach +20' reach = 70'. I don't think that's what the rules mean, though, since... it doesn't say anything about stretching anywhere. Now, granted, this doesn't work all that well for the Tarrasque - but then, really big Colossal creatures (like Big T) don't work that well for anything else, either. It's an inevitable consequence of having the size system top out at some point - a 500' monstrosity is still only Colossal, so things are bound to get wonky when you talk about the very large. In the case of Big T, it'd be perfectly reasonable to houserule that he's 50' tall and can therefore hit something 70' off the ground. The 10' figure you get with method 2 actually makes more sense IMHO. There's no way you're getting your fist more than 10' off the ground, and non-reach weapons aren't all that long - you might be able to get the tip of a broadsword 11' off the ground, but that's not going to do much good by way of attacking someone 10' off the ground. Granted, people will have their heads sticking out of the tops of their spaces, but that's not really any different from the Tarrasque's head and tail sticking out of the sides of his. As I posted you can use which ever way make sense to you. It says that it can reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach. To me that means from shoulders up to the air. You can take it to mean what ever you want. The last part of your post is going against what you already said was true. Which is that you get your 5' mêlée reach in any where you reach to attack even up. now he could reach over 10' and attack when he could very well stand at full height 8' max and attack with 5' reach. Giving him total vert reach of 13. For me it easier to just say 15' because I don't have a 3' space on my map. Now if he was short say 6' tall then I would rule the 10' because he could not reach up an extra 4', But again that would be the DM's call. 50' Doesn't make sense. He is already 50' and could easily stand up to full height and attack 20' up. It is not that far of a stretch to say he could extend his body up 10' more to get 80' reach. But thats me and you can rule which ever way you want. To my point a wizard thinking he could only reach 50' in the air would be surprised the next attack when he stand up to full height and attacked. Better to be safe then sorry. And again space is not height. If a monster has a height entry you can use it but he would still fight in his space on reg attacks but could stand up at full height and still attack.
Vanigo 06-28-07, 06:14 PM	As I posted you can use which ever way make sense to you. It says that it can reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach. To me that means from shoulders up to the air. You can take it to mean what ever you want.Oh, that's what you're talking about... but no. While that would be a valid interpretation of "a creature can reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach," it is not a valid interpretation of "as a general rule, consider creatures to be as tall as their space, meaning that a creature can reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach." There is no sensible way for a height equal to your space to lead to stretching an additional height plus reach. If someone says "I dressed up as a smurf for Halloween, so I'm blue," you don't reply "You mean you're sad?" The last part of your post is going against what you already said was true. Which is that you get your 5' mêlée reach in any where you reach to attack even up. now he could reach over 10' and attack when he could very well stand at full height 8' max and attack with 5' reach. Giving him total vert reach of 13. For me it easier to just say 15' because I don't have a 3' space on my map. Now if he was short say 6' tall then I would rule the 10' because he could not reach up an extra 4', But again that would be the DM's call.Humans are not eight feet tall. I assume you're not from a country that uses the metric system (which is of course to say, any country but the US), or you would know that. Eight feet is almost two and a half meters, though. Six feet is a much more normal height. Using the random height and weight table on page 109, a human male can be anywhere from 5' tall to 6 feet 6 inches. And, if you're planning to say something along the lines of "then why does a human have an 8' vertical reach"? That's how high off the ground you can get your hands. And again space is not height.You see that DMG quote we've been talking about? The one where it says space is height? Y'know, if you look real close and think about it for a while, you might notice that it says that space is height. If a monster has a height entry you can use it but he would still fight in his space on reg attacks but could stand up at full height and still attack.You could, but for the most part that'll just complicate things and break down the grid system.
dknight100 06-28-07, 06:57 PM	As much as i feel that a creature should be able to rear up, i'd say it seems like Vanigo is right here. On the smurf note: in my younger years, i once dressed up as one of the seven dwarves for halloween. I'm not sure which one, but i really should have rethought that costume - in hindsight, none of the seven dwarves is Scary.
Ace_of_time 06-28-07, 09:54 PM	That Quote in the DMG is for creature with no Height entry. It clearly says under Big T entry that that he is 50' tall. And that is 20' more than his space of 30'. Which would clearly make this quote false if it was talking about all creatures. Which it is not. Again do it what ever way you like and makes it fun for you and your players. If that doesn't make you happy then go to Ask Wizards and let them tell you how it is supposed to be done. I believe i post a 6' tall human and gave 10' vert reach. Even if he did only have 8' reach that still isn't going to give my board 3' squares. 3' reach would give him more than half of a 5' space so he would get to attack anything in that 5' space. Seeing as how the monsters above your own 5' space would have to at least take up the whole 5' space above your head unless he /she was tiny or smaller. Unless you can post where it says a monster can't stand at full height and still attack then I am going to use the first method. But thanks anyway.
Arniha 06-29-07, 02:41 AM	See my thread on the demilich. Call THAT a wimp northern-bear.
TheSilverWatcher 06-30-07, 12:29 AM	Though no mention of Baleful Polymorph has been made for a few pages now, I was thumbing through some of my handbooks the other night and found the following in the Players' Handbook 2, pages 96 under the rulings for the Polymorph sub-school. "If the target of a polymorph spell is slain or rendered unconcious, the spell ends. Any part of the body that is seperated from the whole remains polymorphed until the effect ends." Unless Baleful Polymorph functions under a different ruling, Would not this mean that -if- you could turn the Tarrasque into a harmless critter, Upon slaying it, it would again become a Tarrasque once more. Furthermore, Would not the Tarrasque's regeneration ability then come into effect? One could argue that seeing as it was slain while polymorphed that it was in fact dead, and thus regeneration would not occur. But one could just as easily say that the polymorph ended when the Tarrasque-Bunny was reduced to -1 or below and became unconcious. I suppose it all depends on the DM's interpretation of ther Tarrasque's Regeneration rulings (Wish included) and how the Polymorph spell works. Thoughts? First time poster. Be gentle.
dknight100 06-30-07, 04:51 AM	Hey, interesting point Silver. I don't have the PHB2, so i can't check your statement (for some unknown reason, publishing a set of splatbooks labelled like core seemed particularly distasteful to me), however, Baleful Polymorph provides an interesting loophole itself, that i realised when i read your statement then reread the spell. it acts like polymorph, which on death restores the creature. This is unlike the PHB2 bit that you mentioned, as there is no note regarding unconcious. However, upon the death of the polymorphed form, it returns to being the tarrasque... when its the tarrasque, anything that would normally kill it reduces it to -10hp and its regen continues, requiring a wish or miracle to keep that mofo down. So this really becomes a question of: if someone kills it, does the killing the tarrasque clause kick in? I think this could even give a rules lawyer headaches. Obviously, the answer is to not kill it... but picture the look on the face of the farmer who devastated his country by shooting that adorable rabbit.
Derren S. 06-30-07, 08:46 AM	when its the tarrasque, anything that would normally kill it reduces it to -10hp and its regen continues, requiring a wish or miracle to keep that mofo down. So this really becomes a question of: if someone kills it, does the killing the tarrasque clause kick in? I think this could even give a rules lawyer headaches. Not really. It is rather clear what happens. The Tarrasque only polymorphs back when it has already been killed. Its regeneration ability does not include any form of ressurection or actual HP healing. That means that when the Tarraques HP reach -10 it is dead no matter what method was used to reach that. And I also don't understand whats the problem with the vertical reach. By the rules teh Tarrasque occupies a 30x30 space. From that it can be extraploated that it is also 30 ft. high to be consistend with D&D 3.5 quadradtic spaces. Add the 20 ft. reach it has and the total vertical reach comes out as 50 ft. The Tarrasque is a wimp as it lacks any form of serious offensive capabilities for its level. It is hard to kill that is true, but its even harder to get killed by it at that level. And with enough time you can kill it easily for example with chain casting baleful polymorph while flying&invisible till the Tarrasque rolls a 1. It might take several days but its a sure way to kill it with minimal risk.
northern_bear 06-30-07, 12:36 PM	Unless Baleful Polymorph functions under a different ruling, Would not this mean that -if- you could turn the Tarrasque into a harmless critter, Upon slaying it, it would again become a Tarrasque once more. Furthermore, Would not the Tarrasque's regeneration ability then come into effect? Ya maybe. But you'd be stupid to do that. You don't polymorph the Tarrasque into a hamster, then cut its head off. You polymorph it into a Hamster and then stick it in your hamster cage. Leave it there forever. Or come back later when you feel like wasting a wish spell.
dman11235 06-30-07, 01:27 PM	Once again, this does not prove that the T is not a wimp, it proves that you are a horrible metagamer. I have shown what happens when a normal CR testing party takes on the T. A rogue died, a fighter and cleric almost did, and the T didn't die. They sent it to another plane. This happened because they did not know anything about it, or even what it is, because it's really, really hard to identify something with 48 HD even at level 20, without skill boosting items. That's a DC 58 check to identify. There is, however, a problem with the T's immunities. It is not immune to ability drain, unless drain is a form of damage, and thus can be killed by con drain. It also says that it cannot be killed without a wish or miracle. I propose that the T is immune to drain.
dknight100 06-30-07, 01:38 PM	Not really. It is rather clear what happens. The Tarrasque only polymorphs back when it has already been killed. Its regeneration ability does not include any form of ressurection or actual HP healing. That means that when the Tarraques HP reach -10 it is dead no matter what method was used to reach that. Actually it doesnt die at -10, and the MM entry for the Tarrasque specifically states that. It even says than anything that would normally kill it reduces it to -10. The Tarrasque is a wimp as it lacks any form of serious offensive capabilities for its level. It is hard to kill that is true, but its even harder to get killed by it at that level. And with enough time you can kill it easily for example with chain casting baleful polymorph while flying&invisible till the Tarrasque rolls a 1. It might take several days but its a sure way to kill it with minimal risk. Once again, as has been shown many times, and never disproven by the chain baleful polymorph party, that it is not a matter of this, and that any party capable of handling doing that at any level where they shouldnt be taking on the tarrasque is far outside the bounds of logic and wealth. Overall, i'd like to suggest that people just let this thread die. The tarrasque is not a wimp, and this has been repeatedly shown, and never disproven by the "tarrasque is a wimp, just baleful polymorph" him party. You're wrong, drop it. ::EDIT:: I mean seriously this thread didnt get ressurected because you lot had found a way that would actually work, it got ressurected because someone had an interesting point about baleful polymorph.
Phalo 06-30-07, 01:57 PM	I think The problem here is that Big T have gone basically unchanged from the beginning of DND. So lets create a creature more in tune with what he is supposed to be. And spell everything out so people can quit complaining. Size/Type: Colossal Magical Beast Hit Dice: 48d10+594 (858 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares) Armor Class: 35 (-8 size, +3 Dex, +30 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 32 Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+81 Attack: Bite +57 melee (4d8+17/18-20/×3) Full Attack: Bite +57 melee (4d8+17/18-20/×3) and 2 horns +52 melee (1d10+8) and 2 claws +52 melee (1d12+8) and tail slap +52 melee (3d8+8) Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, energy resistance electricity/cold 20, disease, energy drain/damage, and ability damage/drain, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32 , Blind sense 100 ft Roar Saves: Fort +38, Ref +29, Will +20 Abilities: Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14 Skills: Listen +17, Search +9, Spot +17, Survival +14 (+16 following tracks) Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness (6) Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 20 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 49+ HD (Colossal) Level Adjustment: — Combat The tarrasque attacks with its claws, teeth, horns, and tail. The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Augmented Critical (Ex) The tarrasque’s bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit. Roar (Su) The terrasque can loose a devastating roar every 1d4 rounds. All creatures except the terrasque within 120 feet must succeed on a DC 16 Will save or become fatigued. Those within 30 feet who fail their saves become exhausted. The save DC is Charisma-based. Frightful Presence (Su) The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based. Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, the tarrasque must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round. Rush (Ex) Once per minute, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet. Swallow Whole (Ex) The tarrasque can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the tarrasque’s digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The tarrasque’s gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures. Carapace (Ex) The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance. Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability. The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead. If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. add more as it seems appropriate
Derren S. 06-30-07, 03:28 PM	Actually it doesnt die at -10, and the MM entry for the Tarrasque specifically states that. It even says than anything that would normally kill it reduces it to -10. Please read it again. That applies only to spells and effects which 1. Have a save 2. Instantly reduce the HP to -10. And when the Tarrasque is polymorphed nothing of that matters anyway as all that is part of the regeneration which goes away when polymorphed. Another easy way to kill the tarrasque is a Miasma as it suffocates its target and suffocation bypasses regeneration. Before the Spell Compendium errata the Tarrasque wouldn't even have gotten a save. Other ways to easily kill the Tarrasque: - Teleport it into an large lake/ocean. - Planeshift it to the elemental plane of water - Knock it out with damage or Shivering Touch and use move earth to bury its head (or use create water to put its head under water. That is a often used method to deal with trolls when you do not have acid or fire) - Use Avasculate 4 times and then use Power Word Kill Some of them are metagaming, but some of them are not. No matter what it is highly unlikely that the Tarrasque is able to kill any adventure above level 15 unless that adventurer is very stupid. And non of those methods are too expensive for a mid level group, not even chain baleful polymorphing as the Tarrasque is simply not able to prevent the PCs from rethreating, resting and coming back the next day nor is it smart enough to follow the PCs to attack them before they rest (not that the Tarrasque has a way of following them anyway)
dman11235 06-30-07, 04:11 PM	The Tarrasque does not die from drowning. It will be incapacitated after 70 rounds plus the number of rounds it takes to fail it's com check, and once it is uncovered, it will regenerate. Same for plane of water and burying the head. Shivering touch doesn't work, as it deals ability damage. Power Word Kill will drop it by 868 assming you pass SR, and it will start regenerating. The ONLY way to kill it is by using wish or miracle. So polymorph and then killing doesn't even work. Also, since ability drain and damage are grouped in the same thing, ability score loss, and since the T is immune to ability damage and death by means of anything but wish or miracle, I think it is safe to assume that the T is immune to ability drain. Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability. The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead. If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. I have bolded the important thing to keep in mind. Granted, they did make it unclear by saying that it regenerates even if it fails a saving throw, but that is an inclusive, it doesn't exclude anything, not even power words.
Derren S. 06-30-07, 04:35 PM	The "Can only be slain by" thing is part of the regeneration entry and thus is only in effect when regeneration applies. Suffocation ignores regeneration and thus the Tarrasque can die from it. And even if you rule that the 3rd round effect of drowning is covered by regeneration, the 2nd round effect is not and so the Tarrasque will bleed to death (regeneration doesn't prevent that). Baleful Polymorph does remove the regeneration entirely so the morphed tarrasque can be killed like any other creature. That it reverts back after that does not matter as the Tarrasque is already dead. Power Word Kill does only work when the Tarrasques HP are below 100 (Thats what the Avasculates are for), but it can kill the Tarrasque as it does not have a save and the regeneration does only reduce instant death effect to nonlethal damage when they are the result of a failed save. The entry is very specific about that. Good catch on shivering touch. I missed that. But ability drain is not the same as ability damage and the Tarrasque is not immune to it. So using incorporal undead (or a extreme grapple minmaxed vampire) will still incapacitate the Tarrasque easily (or kill it if they drain con like the vampire). The tarrasque on the other hand has nearly no way to harm serious adventurers. It is stupid, can't counter invisibility, flight and battlefield controll spells (although its size makes many of them useless). The only ways it would be able to kill adventurers is when it surprises them (very unlikely) or if the adventurers are time constrained to kill it and thus act foolish.
Phalo 06-30-07, 05:32 PM	i just noticed something Big t gets three AoO a round. assuming 20 foot reach you have to cross 4 threatened squares to even reach him so any single character who even made it to him would have taken three hits. The Alip defense would only work if Big T was unable to actually hit it. and it still has to cross the Aoo zone just like anyother creature. He is not immune to Big Ts natural weapons that are treated as epic +5 and all you need is +1 to actually hit. so he gets a 50% miss chance on three AoO or his first attack which would be enough to kill the allip. I guess you could summon it next to Big T but then you are within 75ft. Assay resistance would be ok but not in conjunction with arcane mastery (you get to take a 10 with mastery) so you would have a 20 to beat the spell resistance. take spell penetration and that is only another 2. so you have 22 thats not enough to beat his SR And as far as being invisible goes you still have land sometime he has scent. He also has a +17 to listen so he can hear a cat walking with a roll of 2 and a owl flight with a roll of 13, so no spells with verbal or somatic components(unless you have not robes on to make sounds while you gesture.) His spot lets him know if an invisible thing is near at 20 so he has to roll a 3 (base +17)add 1 to DC for every 10ft distance. so assume a 10 considering a low roll. 70ft radius to know if invisible creatures are near. so unless you kill him in first encounter he is going to track you down. unless you happen to teleport away. Also lets say you cast assay resistance then spell penetration you still have to roll 18 to beat his SR. So now you have to a and 18 to make your spell to get through, now he has to roll (15+your modifier) [his base is 38] so he has to not roll a 1 after you roll a natural 18. I am sure you guys can work up the odds on that happening. But i am sure it is in the single digit percentiles to work even if you spam the same thing all day. Thats all i can think of right now.
Derren S. 06-30-07, 06:13 PM	i just noticed something Big t gets three AoO a round. assuming 20 foot reach you have to cross 4 threatened squares to even reach him so any single character who even made it to him would have taken three hits. You can only provoke 1 AoO for the same action, that includes all movement. So there is no AoO wall (unless you consider 1 AoO a wall) The Alip defense would only work if Big T was unable to actually hit it. and it still has to cross the Aoo zone just like anyother creature. He is not immune to Big Ts natural weapons that are treated as epic +5 and all you need is +1 to actually hit. so he gets a 50% miss chance on three AoO or his first attack which would be enough to kill the allip. I guess you could summon it next to Big T but then you are within 75ft. Wrong. The Tarrasques weapons are treated as magical/epic for DR purposes only but not for hitting incorporeal creatures. The Tarrasque is completly defenseless against Alips. And as far as being invisible goes you still have land sometime he has scent. He also has a +17 to listen so he can hear a cat walking with a roll of 2 and a owl flight with a roll of 13, so no spells with verbal or somatic components(unless you have not robes on to make sounds while you gesture.) His spot lets him know if an invisible thing is near at 20 so he has to roll a 3 (base +17)add 1 to DC for every 10ft distance. so assume a 10 considering a low roll. 70ft radius to know if invisible creatures are near. Knowing that something invisible is around will not help the Tarrasque. Scent only allows pinpointing a creature at a 5 ft distance and any wizard getting that close to the Tarrasque deserves to die. Listen could be used to pinpoint the location but only by beating the DC by 20. Add in the -1 for each 10 feat and that the Tarrasque is very likely distracted (-5) it is unlikely that this will succeed. And when the wizard moves after casting the spell the DC goes up even more. so unless you kill him in first encounter he is going to track you down. unless you happen to teleport away. The Tarrasque has no way to track a flying, invisible wizard. I am sure you guys can work up the odds on that happening. But i am sure it is in the single digit percentiles to work even if you spam the same thing all day. In the end the Tarrasque will fail and as it does not have any way of harming the wizard there is no risk in spell spamming.
dman11235 06-30-07, 06:31 PM	They've answed that in the FAQ or somewhere. The Tarrasque CANNOT be killed by anything besides a wish or miracle. It is supposed tot be immune to death, which is why all of those things do NOT work. The Tarrasque is also immune to anything that causes incurable or bleeding wounds, so the vampire thing is probably out. Earlier, it was mentioned about vile damage from a wall of fire, that is out as well. The Tarrasque is able to be defeated fairly easily under normal circumstances by an ECL 20 party. You are welcome to try what I did on page 9, and play test the Tarrasque. If you use the standard CR measuring party, and DON'T metagame, you will see that it is a CR 20 or 21 monster. The Tarrasque cannot be killed without a wish or miracle, and sinse it doesn't say it is immune to ability drain, you can kill it with con drain (as long as it's ot an incurable or bleeding wound). That is why I believe that the Tarrasque should be immune to ability drain. Also, no wizard EVER without metagaming will spam spells. After the first couple, or lets be generous, first 10 fail, he is going to stop. Remember, they have high inteligence. They will not say "Oh, look, my spells are having no affect, let's keep trying!" They will say "Oh, look, my spells are having no affect, let's try something different!"
dknight100 06-30-07, 11:03 PM	Please read it again. That applies only to spells and effects which 1. Have a save 2. Instantly reduce the HP to -10. And when the Tarrasque is polymorphed nothing of that matters anyway as all that is part of the regeneration which goes away when polymorphed. Another easy way to kill the tarrasque is a Miasma as it suffocates its target and suffocation bypasses regeneration. Before the Spell Compendium errata the Tarrasque wouldn't even have gotten a save. Other ways to easily kill the Tarrasque: - Teleport it into an large lake/ocean. Does not work, unless you want to go to the ocean with it - Planeshift it to the elemental plane of waterDoes - Knock it out with damage or Shivering Touch and use move earth to bury its head (or use create water to put its head under water. That is a often used method to deal with trolls when you do not have acid or fire) - Use Avasculate 4 times and then use Power Word Kill Some of them are metagaming, but some of them are not. No matter what it is highly unlikely that the Tarrasque is able to kill any adventure above level 15 unless that adventurer is very stupid. And non of those methods are too expensive for a mid level group, not even chain baleful polymorphing as the Tarrasque is simply not able to prevent the PCs from rethreating, resting and coming back the next day nor is it smart enough to follow the PCs to attack them before they rest (not that the Tarrasque has a way of following them anyway) Dude, have your read any post on blasting a spell at him? obviously not. Your group would have to have almost no other items to even stand a small chance of chain spelling him. Also, the frequently stated teleport him doesnt work. target must be willing and you go there with it. Face it, its not an encounter that anyone who shouldnt be able to take on the encounter, which is ANY GROUP FROM LEVEL 15, can actually take. Let this thread die. All you lot have managed to do is claim something would work but never demonstrated, while myself and dman and more have shown exactly why they wouldnt work.
dknight100 06-30-07, 11:16 PM	The "Can only be slain by" thing is part of the regeneration entry and thus is only in effect when regeneration applies. Suffocation ignores regeneration and thus the Tarrasque can die from it. And even if you rule that the 3rd round effect of drowning is covered by regeneration, the 2nd round effect is not and so the Tarrasque will bleed to death (regeneration doesn't prevent that). Actually, it specifically states that bleed effects do not work against the tarrasques regeneration Baleful Polymorph does remove the regeneration entirely so the morphed tarrasque can be killed like any other creature. That it reverts back after that does not matter as the Tarrasque is already dead. Regardless of whether killing it in baleful polymorph kills it, it has been shown, with good ol mathematics, the sheer unlikeliness of managing to baleful polymorph the tarrasque This is my last post to this thread. The T is a Wimp camp has never managed to actually prove any of their claims, while all of the Not a Wimp camp's claims have been backed by rules logic and mathematics. The discussion is over, for even if you do manage to find some way to bring him down from a splatbook (which so far, only the allip could) he still warrants his CR, as CR's must be balanced for core, and disregard anything else, as it cannot be assumed the players use anything but core.
dman11235 07-01-07, 12:34 AM	My last post too. As dknight100 has said, and proved, the chances of the T being beaten by a wizard of level 10 is incredibly small, just as small as a level 10 wizard can defeat a greatwyrm red dragon. Both can be done, it's just that it is as likely of my hand going through the keyboard (exageration). I have shown that an apropriately equiped party of level 20 had trouble killing it, and ended up just plane shifting it with prismatic wall. The Tarrasque is a sufficient challenge for a level 20 party. End discussion.
Derren S. 07-01-07, 04:02 AM	1. For teleport the Tarrasque has to be knocked out, but that isn't that hard to achieve with a level 15 party. The Tarrasque is still a wimp when a party of level -5 can defeat it easily. The wizard solo kills are just the tip of the iceberg but by no means the only way to show that the Tarrasque is over CRed. And a simple water breathing spell and the wizard has no problems under water. 2. It is unlikely that the baleful polymorph succeeds (The avasculate/PW-Kill is a much faster way to kill it) but what you constantly ignore is that the Tarrasque has absolutly no ability to attack the party. A wizard can try the polymorph trick every day for years untill he succeeds. Or a archer with boots of flying can shoot arrows at the Tarrasque till he gets a tripple 20. The Tarrasque can't defend itself against the PCs and that is what makes the Tarrasque a wimp. That killing it is not dangerous, just long winded. 3. The regeneration does only prevent bleeding (and incureable) wounds. The "bleeding" for being at negative HP is a status effect called dying and not covered by regeneration. The difference between the Tarrasque and a great wyrm red dragon is that when the plan fails the wizard attacking the dragon is most likely dead. The wizard attacking the Tarrasque can just fly away and try again tomorrow. And you, the "Big T is fine" camp, constantly failed to address this "The Tarasque can't harm PCs" aspect as that would have meant to admit that the Tarrasque is not a danger to PCs. The only way the Tarrasque is able to kill PCs is under arena conditions and/or when the party is played stupid like in dmans example. What you all assume is that the party somehow needs to kill the Tarrasque in a single encounter and under those conditions the Tarrasque is a bit harder (but still can't attack the party so avasculate or dropping+digging still works) but if that is not the case teh Tarrasque is a real pushover as the party can try again and again untill they kill it with no risk to themself. It is sad that you fail to aknowledge this fact or at least comment on it and instead you only repeat that "It is unlikely that a level 10 wizard kills the Tarrasque in 1 encounter so it is a good challenge for a level 20 party". I mean what has the one thing to do with the other?
Ace_of_time 07-01-07, 05:04 AM	Regen would matter in this case anyway. Just have the wizard/ cleric ready a wish /mir spell for when the bunny turns back in to the Big T and then have the fighter kill the bunny.
Phalo 07-01-07, 08:44 AM	All i can say is if some party tried such a cheap metagaming tactic as the alip in any game i was running. They would find themselves going up against a ghostly Big T very quickly. Also if you can't beat a core monster with core only it deserves its CR. Splat books throw too much stuff out of wack. If spells such as summon undead existed when they wrote Big T they would have specifically wrote he was immune to ability drain.
northern_bear 07-01-07, 09:23 AM	This thread was started with the assumption that the PCs actually have a chance to prepare. Let me expand on what I said back in post #1. If the PCs suddently find themselves trapped in a closed room with the Tarrasque, then they are all going to die. If some guy comes running up to the PCs and says "hey, see that big monster right over there, I need you to kill it right away. You've got 5 minutes. If the creature isn't dead in 5 minutes, you lose the contest. OK, 5 minutes, starting. . . Now. Go!" Well then the PCs are going to fail the contest. They won't know how, or have available the resources, to kill it. Unless they're extremely stupid, they won't get killed themselves, but neither will they be able to kill the Tarrasque. If the king comes to the PCs and says "listen adventurers, there's some huge monster running around the country side destroying towns. I'd like you to go stop it, before it destroys the entire country." In this case, assuming the PCs have at least a few days to complete their mission, any mid level party should be able to succeed. They might not "kill" the tarrasque, but they should certainly be able to sucessfully incapacitate it. Now of these three scenarios, under which scenario are PCs most likely to encounter the Tarrasque? I think it's the third one. And that's the point I've been defending. Given a day or two to observe the Tarrasque, do research on it, talk to people who have seen it in action, etc. It should become evident that the Tarrasque is big and strong, stupid, has spell resistance, and can regenerate. This isn't metagaming. It's just observing that which is obvious over a period of several days. Knowing this, it should be fairly clear that Assay Resistance, plus spamming balefull polymorph, is a sound tactic.
northern_bear 07-01-07, 09:26 AM	OK, OK, so you want to stick to core. Fine, here's my core Tarrasque killer: 15th level Sorceror. That's it. No weird feats. No strange spells or magic items. No ridiculous wealth. No splat books. Just a 15th level sorceror with very standard core spells. Tactics: Invisibility, plus spamming blindness & deafness. The sorceror has a +15 on his caster level checks to overcome SR. Tarrasque has SR of 32. So the sorceror needs to roll a 17 or better on his caster level check. That's a one in five chance. If the sorceror has spell penetration & greater spell penetration then he only needs to roll a 13 or better to beat the Tarrasque's spell resistance. That's a 2 in five chance. Since we're being restricted to core, spell penetration & greater penetration are very reasonable feats for a sorceror to have (or do you consider these to bee to munchkinny?) Tararsque fails his saves on a one (out of 20). One in twenty, times two in five, give one out of 50. So the Tarrasque will be affected by 2% of spells that the sorceror casts. The probability that the Tarrasque will remain unafected by a spell, after it has been cast on him N times, is (0.98)^N. A 15th level sorceror gets 34 spells per day that are 2nd level or higher. If he has a charisma of 22 or higher (I don't think that's too much of a stretch) then he gets 6 bonus spells of 2nd level or higher. For a total of 40 2nd level or higher spells per day. After 40 castings, the probability that the Tarrasque remains unaffected, is only 0.98^40 = 0.45. So if the sorceror casts 40 spells on the tarrasque, there is a 55% chance that the Tarrasque will be affected by at least one of them. If not, he can always come back and try again tomorow. Blind the Tarrasque. Deafen the Tarrasque. It is now fairly non-threatening. As long as villagers stay more than 30 feet away from the thing (the range of its scent), they aren't very likely to get eaten by it. Are they? Mission sucesful. The PCs now have as much time as they could possibly want, in which to figure out how to dispose of the monster for good. This tactic involves absolutely zero risk to the PCs (blindness has a range of 250 feet). It does not require obscene wealth, or unusual magic items. The feats and spell selection of the sorceror in question are all core, and extremely common choices. And it is virtually assured of succeding after a couple of days. The only question, is whether it should be considered metagaming to spam the same spell 40+ times. I don't think it is, for the simple reason that the PCs are unlikely to have a better option. Unless they are the world's biggest morons, they are going to realise that fighting in melee is a spectacularly stupid idea. If they can't fight it toe to toe, what's left? Magic. And it should be reasonably obvious that dealing hit point damage is unlikely to work. So the only viable option that PCs have available, is to blast away with spells that don't do hit point damage, and last a long time. Casting blindness 50 times may seem pointless. But it is less pointless than casting fireballs, or charging into melee combat. If it is the LEAST pointless, of available tactics, then it can't be considered metagaming.
Banatine 07-01-07, 12:45 PM	If you were playing any game, and the same attack (whatever form you can imagine) is used again and again and again on the same enemy without effect, why in your right mind would you keep trying? It obviously does not work, so you are wasting your effort. Even if you manage to hit him with some direct damage spell, will you use it again when you see that seconds later the wound has closed up? Why? It has just instantly healed the damage that you dealt to it. Your gonna try, with your very limited resources, to keep damaging it before it can regenerate? Are you mad? There are better things to do with your time! (unless you are an utter fool, in which case, how have you gotten powerful enough to try this?) You go off and look for information regarding this seemingly unbeatable creature, only to find that (unsurprisingly) none exists. At least none withing your reach. What are you going to do? Just go back and fight it tommorow? Why, you can't hurt it, and you know that through personal experience. Note: this is how i, as a rational, intelligent being would deal with the situation of fighting this creature (which I am unlikely to even know is called the terrasque) without metagaming.
Molitor 07-01-07, 01:22 PM	All i can say is if some party tried such a cheap metagaming tactic as the alip in any game i was running. They would find themselves going up against a ghostly Big T very quickly. Also if you can't beat a core monster with core only it deserves its CR. Splat books throw too much stuff out of wack. If spells such as summon undead existed when they wrote Big T they would have specifically wrote he was immune to ability drain. The Allip idea won't work (page 310 MM). The Big T will shreds those with ease.
Derren S. 07-01-07, 01:28 PM	Note: this is how i, as a rational, intelligent being would deal with the situation of fighting this creature (which I am unlikely to even know is called the terrasque) without metagaming. Only if this rational, intelligent being has no idea how D&D magic works.
Phalo 07-01-07, 01:50 PM	OK, OK, so you want to stick to core. Fine, here's my core Tarrasque killer: 15th level Sorceror. That's it. No weird feats. No strange spells or magic items. No ridiculous wealth. No splat books. Just a 15th level sorceror with very standard core spells. Tactics: Invisibility, plus spamming blindness & deafness. The sorceror has a +15 on his caster level checks to overcome SR. Tarrasque has SR of 32. So the sorceror needs to roll a 17 or better on his caster level check. That's a one in five chance. If the sorceror has spell penetration & greater spell penetration then he only needs to roll a 13 or better to beat the Tarrasque's spell resistance. That's a 2 in five chance. Since we're being restricted to core, spell penetration & greater penetration are very reasonable feats for a sorceror to have (or do you consider these to bee to munchkinny?) Tararsque fails his saves on a one (out of 20). One in twenty, times two in five, give one out of 50. So the Tarrasque will be affected by 2% of spells that the sorceror casts. The probability that the Tarrasque will remain unafected by a spell, after it has been cast on him N times, is (0.98)^N. A 15th level sorceror gets 34 spells per day that are 2nd level or higher. If he has a charisma of 22 or higher (I don't think that's too much of a stretch) then he gets 6 bonus spells of 2nd level or higher. For a total of 40 2nd level or higher spells per day. After 40 castings, the probability that the Tarrasque remains unaffected, is only 0.98^40 = 0.45. So if the sorceror casts 40 spells on the tarrasque, there is a 55% chance that the Tarrasque will be affected by at least one of them. If not, he can always come back and try again tomorow. Blind the Tarrasque. Deafen the Tarrasque. It is now fairly non-threatening. As long as villagers stay more than 30 feet away from the thing (the range of its scent), they aren't very likely to get eaten by it. Are they? Mission sucesful. The PCs now have as much time as they could possibly want, in which to figure out how to dispose of the monster for good. This tactic involves absolutely zero risk to the PCs (blindness has a range of 250 feet). It does not require obscene wealth, or unusual magic items. The feats and spell selection of the sorceror in question are all core, and extremely common choices. And it is virtually assured of succeding after a couple of days. The only question, is whether it should be considered metagaming to spam the same spell 40+ times. I don't think it is, for the simple reason that the PCs are unlikely to have a better option. Unless they are the world's biggest morons, they are going to realise that fighting in melee is a spectacularly stupid idea. If they can't fight it toe to toe, what's left? Magic. And it should be reasonably obvious that dealing hit point damage is unlikely to work. So the only viable option that PCs have available, is to blast away with spells that don't do hit point damage, and last a long time. Casting blindness 50 times may seem pointless. But it is less pointless than casting fireballs, or charging into melee combat. If it is the LEAST pointless, of available tactics, then it can't be considered metagaming. lets make sure i understand this You are trying to make me believe that your character casts blindness/deafness at every creature he meets that he does not know. For this is the only way I would buy the whole spamming a single spell. It would be like casting magic missile at an iron golem, Or charm monster at a vampire. Hey it didn't work do it again. I also get the whole you can come back tomorrow idea. But if you are encountering Big T anywhere it is probably near a population center. So while you are regrouping and resting for 8 hours he eats the town. Probably the biggest problem I have with this whole Big T is a wimp thing is in the description it says all but the largest dragons avoid him. That comes to mean to me that he is tougher than an ancient dragon at least. But its your game run it however you want.
Derren S. 07-01-07, 01:53 PM	The description can say much but when the stats don't support it its simply not true. Theare are nearly no creatures which are immune to blindness or polymorph so using this spells against a otherwise unkillable creature is logical. Yes that includes a D&D wizard as he does know that too. He also knows that every creature can fail a save against a spell no matter how though it is so spell spamming is also a logical way to deal with a though creature when you can survive the counter attack which is not an issue with the Tarrasque.
northern_bear 07-01-07, 02:46 PM	If you were playing any game, and the same attack (whatever form you can imagine) is used again and again and again on the same enemy without effect, why in your right mind would you keep trying? why would I keep trying someting? I'd keep trying it if I couldn't think of anything better to do. Just go back and fight it tommorow? Why, you can't hurt it, and you know that through personal experience. I know I haven't hurt it yet. I don't know that I can't hurt it. Yes, just going home and forgetting about it might be the rational thing to do. But then again, a rational person would never go on an "adventure" in the first place. As per my post, I'm assuming that you've been asked to try to stop the creature. So you may as well keep trying until you succeed. Assuming that going home is not an option, and you have to keep trying to fight the thing, what would you do? Melee combat? Or keep casting spells from a safe distance in the hopes that sooner or later one of them will work. lets make sure i understand this You are trying to make me believe that your character casts blindness/deafness at every creature he meets that he does not know. What about my post makes you think that? What I said was, if physical combat doesn't work. And damage dealing spells don't work. Then I go with non-damage dealing spells, which will last a long time. I listed blindness simply for the sake of making a point. In practice, I would cast other debilitating spells too. If you want to get technical, then it would go more like this. Use my highest level spell slots to cast the highest level spells I know, which have permanent duration, and don't do hit point damage. Probably flesh to stone. When I run out of those, then use my next highest level spell slots to use my next highest level permanent duration attack spell. Probably baleful polymorph. . . . Keep casting spells until I run out. After all, what else am I going to do besides run away. He can't hurt me. I may as well keep casting until I run out of spells. Then I'll run away. It would be like casting magic missile at an iron golem, Or charm monster at a vampire. Except that there are better tactics against golemns and vampires. Wizard: Hey, my fireball didn't affect that creature. Maybe I'll try a magic missle. Nope, that didn't work either. Hey fighter, why don't you go bash it with your sword. Fighter: OK. Ya, that worked great. I just took a big chunk out of this metal creature. Save you're spells, I'll finish him off. If you can buff me, that might help though. Wizard: I don't like the look of that guy with the fangs. I'm going to try to charm him. Hey that didn't work. Why don't I try to fireball him. Oooh baby, that worked great. One more fireball coming up. Wizard: Man, that's a big critter. I'm going to blast it with a lightning bolt. Holy moly, my own lightning bolt nearly hit me. This time I'll try blindness. Hmm, didn't work. Hey you, Barbarian with the inteligence of 3, why don't you try killing it with your axe. Barbarian: Duh, OK, AAaaaaah [as he is ripped to pieces]. Wizard: Fighter, your turn. Charge man. Kill that thing. Fighter: Get real man, no way am I going near that thing. Wizard: Hm, well, anybody have any other ideas? No. Well, I've got a few spells left, I guess I may as well try casting blindness a few more times unless someone has a better idea. Hey it didn't work do it again. More like: hey, it didn't work. Do I have any other things that I can try? Nope. Well, I might as well try again.
Phalo 07-04-07, 12:21 AM	The description can say much but when the stats don't support it its simply not true. Theare are nearly no creatures which are immune to blindness or polymorph so using this spells against a otherwise unkillable creature is logical. Yes that includes a D&D wizard as he does know that too. He also knows that every creature can fail a save against a spell no matter how though it is so spell spamming is also a logical way to deal with a though creature when you can survive the counter attack which is not an issue with the Tarrasque. Just to throw this out there but constructs are immune to both. Swarms are immune to both. Shapechanger type are immune to balefule polymorph. And on a side note Asking around about this big bad monster is gonna be like going to a junior high school and asking who the president of Russia is. Not likely to get an answer or at least if you do it is going to be wrong. This is something that shows up 1d3 days every 6d4 months so assuming the worse. That is 3 days every 6 months. Not alot of time to gather up info. So using your logic why not just wait for it to go back asleep and build a wall around it with wall of stones. Better yet make them huge and thick as a mountain. And start mixing giant vats or acid to pour into the cell . Or better yet get get several mages together and have a continuous wall of fire but use energy substitution to make it cold/acid/electricity. I guess this all really comes down to does you tactic work if if you don't know what the creature is. Example would you use the same tactic if the Big T you are facing is an effigy. If you knew it was an effigy would you change tactics. Since out of player you know this thing is not a construct.