Do Undead Age? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do Undead Age? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
split infinitude
11-12-03, 08:33 PM I know there's a rule on this somewhere, but I just can't find the damn thing. Do undead age, and get aging modifiers? Or not?
The Abominable Darkling
11-12-03, 08:57 PM There are no rules on this; you just have to wing it. Certainly, they don't age in the conventional sense, but their bodies might change over time.
cwslyclgh
11-12-03, 08:57 PM it does not say any place.... however I would say that no they don't... I say this for balance reasons... undead should obviosly not get the pealties associated with aging, there for it would be unfair to grant them the benifits.
Stephenls
11-12-03, 09:16 PM Originally posted by cwslyclgh
it does not say any place.... however I would say that no they don't... I say this for balance reasons... undead should obviosly not get the pealties associated with aging, there for it would be unfair to grant them the benifits.

Bwuh? Unbalancing? Aren't these monsters we're talking about? Make something more powerful = give it a higher CR. Where's the imbalance?

To answer the original question, er, it depends on the undead. Vampires and liches continue to gain levels. Ghouls gain a hit die, then turn into ghasts when they gain another, then gain up to four more. I suppose the easiest way is to look for the "advancement" entry in their stat blocks -- some of 'em have nothing, and some have numbers. Most undead are fairly static -- you make a mummy stronger by, presumably, mummifying it in a more elaborate ceremony, or something, but it depends on your campaign world.

That last phrase is the important one. It depends on your campaign world. Me, I like my undead to gain power as they age, although the weaker ones do it slowly. A zombie that's been sitting in that 10' room guarding that treasure chest for a week or a month or ten years is just a zombie, but if he's been there since three global civilizations ago, you'd best be a-feared, because he will hand you your unmentionables.

It always comes down to whatever's more fun, right? 3e gives us the rules to make darn near any monster more powerful. Why not use 'em?
Wickerbull
11-12-03, 09:25 PM I would say that they don't age, because they don't have metabolisms. Mindless undead would decay over time, while intelligent undead are effectively immortal. But this is just what I want for my campaign world.
Forgehome
11-12-03, 09:42 PM In the 2nd Ed Ravenloft setting, vampires, mummies etc gained power from age. Vampires for example gained more immunities as they progressed until they could walk in direct sunlight. Check out some of the old Ravenloft guides to... for more information.

Stephenls, I was always under the impression that liches could not gain levels and this was their greatest agony. The inability to increase their magical casting ability drove many of them made and was their predominate motivation. Has this changed?
Stephenls
11-12-03, 09:55 PM Originally posted by Forgehome
Stephenls, I was always under the impression that liches could not gain levels and this was their greatest agony. The inability to increase their magical casting ability drove many of them made and was their predominate motivation. Has this changed?

Yeah, this has changed. In 3e, pretty much anything intelligent can gain levels. It's like drow magic items and how they don't automatically dissolve in sunlight anymore.

However, a lich does suddenly gains a level adjustment of +4 the moment he or she, ahem, "crosses over," and most liches are relatively high level when they make the transformation. I imagine the effect of that on their advancement is not unlike colliding with a brick wall.
Dackad
11-12-03, 09:57 PM Originally posted by Forgehome

Stephenls, I was always under the impression that liches could not gain levels and this was their greatest agony. The inability to increase their magical casting ability drove many of them made and was their predominate motivation. Has this changed?
The only instance of this that I've heard of is Azalin Rex from Ravenloft. I'm not sure if this is true, but I've heard that the dark powers cursed Rex so that he would be unable to learn any new arcane lore (effectively being unable to advance).
There is also an obscure reference in the MM that says that Liches are unable to advance in any class by spellcasters.
cwslyclgh
11-12-03, 09:59 PM Stephenls, I was always under the impression that liches could not gain levels and this was their greatest agony. The inability to increase their magical casting ability drove many of them made and was their predominate motivation. Has this changed? your impresion is mistaken, liches could always continue to gain levels... however a certain lich could not... Azalin's inability to gain further level (or to learn any new spells for that matter) was his curse as Darklord of Darkon in the ravenloft setting.
Edymnion
11-12-03, 10:11 PM I'd say undead gain the mental benefits of aging, but not the physical drawbacks. Old age gets the mental bonuses because of their long lives and how much they've learned, seeing the patterns in things, etc. I see no reason why vampires would suddenly stop learning, especially when they can take class levels after the transition.

Just means you gotta be REALLY careful about tangling with ancient vampires. Would base the aging benefits on the aging rate of the base creature.
cwslyclgh
11-12-03, 11:27 PM Just means you gotta be REALLY careful about tangling with ancient vampires. Would base the aging benefits on the aging rate of the base creature so how would the benifits increase after the creatur hits what would normaly be venerable... or would a 5,000 year old human vapire have the same bonus to intellegice that a 90 year old one would?
split infinitude
11-12-03, 11:33 PM Originally posted by Edymnion
I'd say undead gain the mental benefits of aging, but not the physical drawbacks. Old age gets the mental bonuses because of their long lives and how much they've learned, seeing the patterns in things, etc. I see no reason why vampires would suddenly stop learning, especially when they can take class levels after the transition.

Just means you gotta be REALLY careful about tangling with ancient vampires. Would base the aging benefits on the aging rate of the base creature.

I was thinking along the same lines from a "makes sense" standpoint, but I can't figure out a fair way to do it. As Stephenls pointed out, it doesn't matter much for NPC's. I'm running an undead campaign, though (well, among other things). Normally, I let PC's pick an age b/c it's fairly balanced, but if you can pick "infinite," well . . .

But if there's no rule, I feel more comfortable just imposing something.
Stephenls
11-12-03, 11:38 PM OH!

You're talking about aging as in the aging stat mods. Right. I didn't clue into this. I thought you meant "might a three-thousand year old zombie be more powerful than one that was created ten minutes ago?"

I'd ignore the aging bonuses. If you want an in-character rationale, undead are static beings who resist change and tend to cling to old patterns of thought that date from when they were still alive. Actual improvement doesn't occur unless they make a conscious effort, IE spend stat increases gained from hit dice, or spend wishes, or whatever.

The out-of-character rationale, though, is that it's not something I'd want to balance, and, as you said, it messes with the PCs ability in undead campaigns to choose cool ages. More complexity + less coolness = no.
split infinitude
11-13-03, 01:22 AM Yeah, that's basically what I'm going with. Undead don't age, and are trapped in a mentality (a la Interview w/ a Vampire). Just gets too complicated otherwise.
Xavim
11-13-03, 04:19 AM I fail to see how giving a sentient undead PC an age bonus to INT and WIS is unbalanced. By the time they're undead, they're mid to high level and a handful of stat bonuses aren't going to alter their power much. If the undead aren't sentient then of course they don't gain anything as they age. But the whole point of becoming a sentient undead is so you CAN get the benefits of aging without the drawbacks.

Its unrealistic to deny them the bonuses because their immediate level progression continues. Thus, showing the undead as learning beings. If you wanted to you could extend the ages by a factor of the undead creature's level adjustment to show the immortal's new outlook on life. So a human lich wouldn't gain the benefits of aging until 4x as much time had passed for each category.
Gez
11-13-03, 05:02 AM Although "mindful" undead are able to gain level, they are still pretty static creatures (evolving is a prerogative of life, not death). I don't see why they would gain the aging bonuses.

However, most of them do decay over time. Zombie become skeletons. Liches become demiliches.

A vampire's body don't change, but they are rather an exception.
the_heart
11-13-03, 09:34 AM when in doubt i always KISS.

Keep It Simple Stupid.

whilst there are valid arguments for both including or denying aging bonuses, including them means working out a system for effectively unlimited aging. way too much work. set an age at which they 'go over', include penalties, then it's fixed! simple yet elegant.
Joe Gold
11-13-03, 05:28 PM Originally posted by Gez
However, most of them do decay over time. Zombie become skeletons. Liches become demiliches.

While zombies to skeletons is debatable, I know that a lich doesn't just rot into more power. The lich learns how to make soul gems, and then casts off the remaining unnecessary body parts.
Edymnion
11-13-03, 10:29 PM Oh, well if you're running an undead game and these are going to be PCs, then age doesn't matter. If they're 500 years old, then that 500 years worth of experience is already factored into their starting intelligence scores. "So, you say you'd have racked up +10 to your Int score in all your years? Well you rolled a 15, you must have started life with an Int of 5". Make the characters normally, keep them balanced at the start, age them during play, but keep everything before that pure flavor text. They can say they're a million years old and have Great Red Wyrms as lapdogs in their background, but that doesn't mean you have to actually give that to them in game.
DrakeRunner
11-13-03, 11:16 PM It is in nature's way that all things are created, live, die, decay, and grant new life. Undead are against nature.

I'd say they'd be just as intelligent as ever, not gaining the benefits since they're seeing the world through different eyes.

Or if I did apply the benefits, I'd apply the penalities too.
"I am the four thousand year old arch lich, Vec*jaw cracks and falls off*a! Ah hehhl ih! ih alhwah hahhehs. Hih wheh hi heh hoieh. huheh hah ha halheheh."

Bonus points to whoever deciphers that.
split infinitude
11-14-03, 12:06 AM Originally posted by Edymnion
Oh, well if you're running an undead game and these are going to be PCs, then age doesn't matter. If they're 500 years old, then that 500 years worth of experience is already factored into their starting intelligence scores. "So, you say you'd have racked up +10 to your Int score in all your years? Well you rolled a 15, you must have started life with an Int of 5". Make the characters normally, keep them balanced at the start, age them during play, but keep everything before that pure flavor text. They can say they're a million years old and have Great Red Wyrms as lapdogs in their background, but that doesn't mean you have to actually give that to them in game.

That's basically what I'm doing. Normally, if a player wants something within the rules, I allow it - with obvious exceptions. I couldn't find a rule on undead aging, and the normal aging rules don't seem limited to the living (by the letter at least), so I was checking to see if there was actually something out there. Since there isn't, I don't even have to houserule. I really hate saying "Well, the rule's there, but you can't . . .". WOoT!
Xavim
11-14-03, 12:37 AM I'm assuming all of your players are undead otherwise there wouldn'[t be anyone else alive in order to have a campaign. So if all of the players gain a bonus, there's nothing unbalancing about it.

Also, just because something's body is decaying away doesn't mean that its mind is in any way effected especially when you get into considering liches. Their souls, minds and power are perserved by their magic and thus don't fade away, but rather are free to develope normally (except for that level adjustment which is taken into account of the lich's new outlook on life where he may embark on plans that take decades to come to fruition without much concern). You don't have to make a table for unlimited aging, you can simple rule that since your mind is still technically human/whatever, that it can only progress so far with natural aging. Thus once they attain the venerable age they don't gain any more bonuses outside of class levels.

How is this issue even coming up? Do you have a campaign that's spanning thousands of years or is it just for characters starting and have crazy backgrounds?

As for applying the penalties, its awefully hard for you to reduce the con of something that you know... doesn't have a con score. I could see you validating reducing strength for liches do to the decay on their bodies, but any lich would be using the 'gentle repose' spell on themselves continually to prevent their bodies from wasting away to nothing.

While Vampires, depending on your interpretation, are stuck in a single state, that only applies to their physical self. In Interview with a Vampire, they weren't impeded in the least from learning new things. Look at the way Claudia drew in the scene with the dolls. A little peasent girl wouldn't have been able to do that at her age. Not even Picasso was THAT much of a child prodigy (took him till about 12 to master realism)
Lance Dracon
12-15-03, 05:31 AM You ought to check out the Ravenloft campaign setting book. It's got info on undead "aging." Vampires, for instance, have their connection to the negative energy plane increase over time, meaning that they get more powerful and get salient abilities.
Undead are, in general, far more fleshed out in Ravenloft, so buy this book if you want info on ghosts, vampires, liches, and ancient dead (mummies)
Boondoggle
12-15-03, 08:55 PM I would suggest, that at character creation, you apply all age modifiers. For any aging that occurs during the campaign, just use the bonuses, not the penalties.
ciaran00
12-16-03, 05:26 AM I thought that was the point of becoming a lich. Immortality.

ciaran

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
split infinitude 11-12-03, 08:33 PM	I know there's a rule on this somewhere, but I just can't find the damn thing. Do undead age, and get aging modifiers? Or not?
The Abominable Darkling 11-12-03, 08:57 PM	There are no rules on this; you just have to wing it. Certainly, they don't age in the conventional sense, but their bodies might change over time.
cwslyclgh 11-12-03, 08:57 PM	it does not say any place.... however I would say that no they don't... I say this for balance reasons... undead should obviosly not get the pealties associated with aging, there for it would be unfair to grant them the benifits.
Stephenls 11-12-03, 09:16 PM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh it does not say any place.... however I would say that no they don't... I say this for balance reasons... undead should obviosly not get the pealties associated with aging, there for it would be unfair to grant them the benifits. Bwuh? Unbalancing? Aren't these monsters we're talking about? Make something more powerful = give it a higher CR. Where's the imbalance? To answer the original question, er, it depends on the undead. Vampires and liches continue to gain levels. Ghouls gain a hit die, then turn into ghasts when they gain another, then gain up to four more. I suppose the easiest way is to look for the "advancement" entry in their stat blocks -- some of 'em have nothing, and some have numbers. Most undead are fairly static -- you make a mummy stronger by, presumably, mummifying it in a more elaborate ceremony, or something, but it depends on your campaign world. That last phrase is the important one. It depends on your campaign world. Me, I like my undead to gain power as they age, although the weaker ones do it slowly. A zombie that's been sitting in that 10' room guarding that treasure chest for a week or a month or ten years is just a zombie, but if he's been there since three global civilizations ago, you'd best be a-feared, because he will hand you your unmentionables. It always comes down to whatever's more fun, right? 3e gives us the rules to make darn near any monster more powerful. Why not use 'em?
Wickerbull 11-12-03, 09:25 PM	I would say that they don't age, because they don't have metabolisms. Mindless undead would decay over time, while intelligent undead are effectively immortal. But this is just what I want for my campaign world.
Forgehome 11-12-03, 09:42 PM	In the 2nd Ed Ravenloft setting, vampires, mummies etc gained power from age. Vampires for example gained more immunities as they progressed until they could walk in direct sunlight. Check out some of the old Ravenloft guides to... for more information. Stephenls, I was always under the impression that liches could not gain levels and this was their greatest agony. The inability to increase their magical casting ability drove many of them made and was their predominate motivation. Has this changed?
Stephenls 11-12-03, 09:55 PM	Originally posted by Forgehome Stephenls, I was always under the impression that liches could not gain levels and this was their greatest agony. The inability to increase their magical casting ability drove many of them made and was their predominate motivation. Has this changed? Yeah, this has changed. In 3e, pretty much anything intelligent can gain levels. It's like drow magic items and how they don't automatically dissolve in sunlight anymore. However, a lich does suddenly gains a level adjustment of +4 the moment he or she, ahem, "crosses over," and most liches are relatively high level when they make the transformation. I imagine the effect of that on their advancement is not unlike colliding with a brick wall.
Dackad 11-12-03, 09:57 PM	Originally posted by Forgehome Stephenls, I was always under the impression that liches could not gain levels and this was their greatest agony. The inability to increase their magical casting ability drove many of them made and was their predominate motivation. Has this changed? The only instance of this that I've heard of is Azalin Rex from Ravenloft. I'm not sure if this is true, but I've heard that the dark powers cursed Rex so that he would be unable to learn any new arcane lore (effectively being unable to advance). There is also an obscure reference in the MM that says that Liches are unable to advance in any class by spellcasters.
cwslyclgh 11-12-03, 09:59 PM	Stephenls, I was always under the impression that liches could not gain levels and this was their greatest agony. The inability to increase their magical casting ability drove many of them made and was their predominate motivation. Has this changed? your impresion is mistaken, liches could always continue to gain levels... however a certain lich could not... Azalin's inability to gain further level (or to learn any new spells for that matter) was his curse as Darklord of Darkon in the ravenloft setting.
Edymnion 11-12-03, 10:11 PM	I'd say undead gain the mental benefits of aging, but not the physical drawbacks. Old age gets the mental bonuses because of their long lives and how much they've learned, seeing the patterns in things, etc. I see no reason why vampires would suddenly stop learning, especially when they can take class levels after the transition. Just means you gotta be REALLY careful about tangling with ancient vampires. Would base the aging benefits on the aging rate of the base creature.
cwslyclgh 11-12-03, 11:27 PM	Just means you gotta be REALLY careful about tangling with ancient vampires. Would base the aging benefits on the aging rate of the base creature so how would the benifits increase after the creatur hits what would normaly be venerable... or would a 5,000 year old human vapire have the same bonus to intellegice that a 90 year old one would?
split infinitude 11-12-03, 11:33 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion I'd say undead gain the mental benefits of aging, but not the physical drawbacks. Old age gets the mental bonuses because of their long lives and how much they've learned, seeing the patterns in things, etc. I see no reason why vampires would suddenly stop learning, especially when they can take class levels after the transition. Just means you gotta be REALLY careful about tangling with ancient vampires. Would base the aging benefits on the aging rate of the base creature. I was thinking along the same lines from a "makes sense" standpoint, but I can't figure out a fair way to do it. As Stephenls pointed out, it doesn't matter much for NPC's. I'm running an undead campaign, though (well, among other things). Normally, I let PC's pick an age b/c it's fairly balanced, but if you can pick "infinite," well . . . But if there's no rule, I feel more comfortable just imposing something.
Stephenls 11-12-03, 11:38 PM	OH! You're talking about aging as in the aging stat mods. Right. I didn't clue into this. I thought you meant "might a three-thousand year old zombie be more powerful than one that was created ten minutes ago?" I'd ignore the aging bonuses. If you want an in-character rationale, undead are static beings who resist change and tend to cling to old patterns of thought that date from when they were still alive. Actual improvement doesn't occur unless they make a conscious effort, IE spend stat increases gained from hit dice, or spend wishes, or whatever. The out-of-character rationale, though, is that it's not something I'd want to balance, and, as you said, it messes with the PCs ability in undead campaigns to choose cool ages. More complexity + less coolness = no.
split infinitude 11-13-03, 01:22 AM	Yeah, that's basically what I'm going with. Undead don't age, and are trapped in a mentality (a la Interview w/ a Vampire). Just gets too complicated otherwise.
Xavim 11-13-03, 04:19 AM	I fail to see how giving a sentient undead PC an age bonus to INT and WIS is unbalanced. By the time they're undead, they're mid to high level and a handful of stat bonuses aren't going to alter their power much. If the undead aren't sentient then of course they don't gain anything as they age. But the whole point of becoming a sentient undead is so you CAN get the benefits of aging without the drawbacks. Its unrealistic to deny them the bonuses because their immediate level progression continues. Thus, showing the undead as learning beings. If you wanted to you could extend the ages by a factor of the undead creature's level adjustment to show the immortal's new outlook on life. So a human lich wouldn't gain the benefits of aging until 4x as much time had passed for each category.
Gez 11-13-03, 05:02 AM	Although "mindful" undead are able to gain level, they are still pretty static creatures (evolving is a prerogative of life, not death). I don't see why they would gain the aging bonuses. However, most of them do decay over time. Zombie become skeletons. Liches become demiliches. A vampire's body don't change, but they are rather an exception.
the_heart 11-13-03, 09:34 AM	when in doubt i always KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. whilst there are valid arguments for both including or denying aging bonuses, including them means working out a system for effectively unlimited aging. way too much work. set an age at which they 'go over', include penalties, then it's fixed! simple yet elegant.
Joe Gold 11-13-03, 05:28 PM	Originally posted by Gez However, most of them do decay over time. Zombie become skeletons. Liches become demiliches. While zombies to skeletons is debatable, I know that a lich doesn't just rot into more power. The lich learns how to make soul gems, and then casts off the remaining unnecessary body parts.
Edymnion 11-13-03, 10:29 PM	Oh, well if you're running an undead game and these are going to be PCs, then age doesn't matter. If they're 500 years old, then that 500 years worth of experience is already factored into their starting intelligence scores. "So, you say you'd have racked up +10 to your Int score in all your years? Well you rolled a 15, you must have started life with an Int of 5". Make the characters normally, keep them balanced at the start, age them during play, but keep everything before that pure flavor text. They can say they're a million years old and have Great Red Wyrms as lapdogs in their background, but that doesn't mean you have to actually give that to them in game.
DrakeRunner 11-13-03, 11:16 PM	It is in nature's way that all things are created, live, die, decay, and grant new life. Undead are against nature. I'd say they'd be just as intelligent as ever, not gaining the benefits since they're seeing the world through different eyes. Or if I did apply the benefits, I'd apply the penalities too. "I am the four thousand year old arch lich, Vecjaw cracks and falls offa! Ah hehhl ih! ih alhwah hahhehs. Hih wheh hi heh hoieh. huheh hah ha halheheh." Bonus points to whoever deciphers that.
split infinitude 11-14-03, 12:06 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion Oh, well if you're running an undead game and these are going to be PCs, then age doesn't matter. If they're 500 years old, then that 500 years worth of experience is already factored into their starting intelligence scores. "So, you say you'd have racked up +10 to your Int score in all your years? Well you rolled a 15, you must have started life with an Int of 5". Make the characters normally, keep them balanced at the start, age them during play, but keep everything before that pure flavor text. They can say they're a million years old and have Great Red Wyrms as lapdogs in their background, but that doesn't mean you have to actually give that to them in game. That's basically what I'm doing. Normally, if a player wants something within the rules, I allow it - with obvious exceptions. I couldn't find a rule on undead aging, and the normal aging rules don't seem limited to the living (by the letter at least), so I was checking to see if there was actually something out there. Since there isn't, I don't even have to houserule. I really hate saying "Well, the rule's there, but you can't . . .". WOoT!
Xavim 11-14-03, 12:37 AM	I'm assuming all of your players are undead otherwise there wouldn'[t be anyone else alive in order to have a campaign. So if all of the players gain a bonus, there's nothing unbalancing about it. Also, just because something's body is decaying away doesn't mean that its mind is in any way effected especially when you get into considering liches. Their souls, minds and power are perserved by their magic and thus don't fade away, but rather are free to develope normally (except for that level adjustment which is taken into account of the lich's new outlook on life where he may embark on plans that take decades to come to fruition without much concern). You don't have to make a table for unlimited aging, you can simple rule that since your mind is still technically human/whatever, that it can only progress so far with natural aging. Thus once they attain the venerable age they don't gain any more bonuses outside of class levels. How is this issue even coming up? Do you have a campaign that's spanning thousands of years or is it just for characters starting and have crazy backgrounds? As for applying the penalties, its awefully hard for you to reduce the con of something that you know... doesn't have a con score. I could see you validating reducing strength for liches do to the decay on their bodies, but any lich would be using the 'gentle repose' spell on themselves continually to prevent their bodies from wasting away to nothing. While Vampires, depending on your interpretation, are stuck in a single state, that only applies to their physical self. In Interview with a Vampire, they weren't impeded in the least from learning new things. Look at the way Claudia drew in the scene with the dolls. A little peasent girl wouldn't have been able to do that at her age. Not even Picasso was THAT much of a child prodigy (took him till about 12 to master realism)
Lance Dracon 12-15-03, 05:31 AM	You ought to check out the Ravenloft campaign setting book. It's got info on undead "aging." Vampires, for instance, have their connection to the negative energy plane increase over time, meaning that they get more powerful and get salient abilities. Undead are, in general, far more fleshed out in Ravenloft, so buy this book if you want info on ghosts, vampires, liches, and ancient dead (mummies)
Boondoggle 12-15-03, 08:55 PM	I would suggest, that at character creation, you apply all age modifiers. For any aging that occurs during the campaign, just use the bonuses, not the penalties.
ciaran00 12-16-03, 05:26 AM	I thought that was the point of becoming a lich. Immortality. ciaran