Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 04-17-08, 12:32 AM	Vampires according to the D&D Raw, Do vampires sleep? Do they need to rest during the day? Can they be up at night as well as the day? Do they need their 8 hours of sleep like any other spell caster to refresh either his spontaneous spells or learning spells for the day? Or do they retreat to their coffins to escape the searing light of the sun?
zaku41k 04-17-08, 12:44 AM	I think they're like elves, they don't need to sleep, but requires 8 hours of rest/meditation for spell preparation. I think they can be up 24/7 if they want to, as long as they're away from sun light. My question is, are vampires stronger during the night?? Or are they the same during day and night, as long as they're not exposed to daylight?
pigknight 04-17-08, 12:56 AM	They don't need to sleep and are the same during the day/night.
DKase 04-17-08, 01:49 AM	Vampires don't need to sleep as they are undead, but they still require the same 8 hours to prepare spells and what not. Any spells cast with in the last 8 hours still counts against the limit they can prepare as well. They are also limited to the same daily constraints on item creation just as a living being is. As written, vampires are equally nasty regardless of time of day unless they are actually exposed to sunlight. The only times a Vampire MUST return to their coffin, is if their physical body is destroyed, or if they want to cross running water. In the case of the first example, they have two hours (they can travel up to nine miles in that time) to return to their place of rest, and then they spend one hour to regain one hitpoint. After that their fast healing kicks in and they can be up a couple of minutes afterwards if they choose. To cross running water, the Vampire must be in it's coffin, and be transported over the water either by boat, or just have people carry it over a bridge. Their really isn't anything saying a Vampire can't have more then one coffin, but the text looks like it's trying to imply it. Usually, the coffin has to have some amount of gravedirt from the Vampire's original place of rest I believe. But the last statement is just from reviewing folklore and works of fiction, nothing in the RAW state that it has to be that way to my knowledge.
JulesCARV 04-17-08, 02:48 AM	One question: arcane or divine spellcaster? Arcane spellcasters (unless otherwise noted) have to spend eight hours sleeping or generally doing nothing to regain their spells for the day, even if, like vampires, they don't need sleep. Divine spellcasters (unless otherwise noted) have no need for such an eight hour "do-nothing" period, but any spells they cast in the eight hours prior to regaining spells are considered used when preperation time comes, so the slot can't be re-used. However, any other activity -- even if it's vigorous -- is fine so long as it doesn't involve casting spells.
ElyasRavenwood 04-17-08, 08:34 AM	Thanks this is very helpful. I was planning to put together a vampire/ Dread Necromancer. I was just curios about their sleeping habits, or lack there of because if this guy is going to be the local tin plated despot and he needs to sleep the day out, that would be a big weakness. If he can be awake all the time and simply need to meditate 8 hours a day, then it will make it much easier to tend to the business of ruling. Thanks again
Slagger the Chuul 04-17-08, 11:03 AM	To cross running water, the Vampire must be in it's coffin, and be transported over the water either by boat, or just have people carry it over a bridge. Or sometimes go by catapult, if it's a PC vampire. :)
1 ton ghost 04-17-08, 01:16 PM	There have been some adopted houserules cannibalizing other game texts, film media, and pop culture in general. Consider: -Technically, they can sustain themselves in the daytime, but it would be seriously uncomfortable. Traditionally, they sleep when the sun is up, you know? To that end, perhaps there should be a system to represent that sleep deficit. Just as living creatures are Fatigued for less than 8hrs of sleep, a vampire should feel some malign FX as well despite Fatigue immunity. I mean, they get to live forever, some downtime is only fair, right? -Tzimisce vampires (think of Carpathia of old, Vlad Teppes, etc) in Vampire had to have 2 handfuls of dirt to surround themselves in, no coffin. Actually, none of them required coffins now that I think about it. I often like this adoption at it fits thematically w/ D&D's proto-renaissance dynamic. Quite frankly, a coffin is a dead giveaway, especially in this theoretical chronology. It could be a gateway to Taint mechanics if you want, possible spell component, and another mean's for clever vamp hunters. W/out a stable of hirelings/charmed servants/ghouls in the "traditional sense", you're (un)life would be a short one considering the coffin discrepancy. -Running Water: didn't know you had to be in your casket to cross that. When is it legal to turn into a bat and cross said body of water? Certain altitudes, certain streams/rivers, etc?
ToastedAmphibian 04-17-08, 06:19 PM	I like to use Secret Chest with my coffin. This works really well as your 5th level sp ability if you get spell stitched. With a standard action your coffin apears next to you. And as a standard action (Or 10 minutes if you actually have to cast it) it goes back hidden on the ethreal plane. And summoning it from its hiding place requiers only that you concentrate on doing so, thus you shouldnt have any trouble summoning it to you even when in gaseous form. this gives you 2 hours to go to any random, safe place where you can hide for an hour. Also, it says it has a 75% chance to fail if there are any LIVING creatures in it. If you have an undead servant to gaurd you while you rest, (And you should. If you dont, just go murder a peasent that noone will notice and get a spawn till you find something better) you may stick him in your coffin when you arnt using it. Then, when you need your coffin, he gets out and stands guard. Plus he can fluff your pillows and such for you.
DKase 04-17-08, 06:20 PM	-Running Water: didn't know you had to be in your casket to cross that. When is it legal to turn into a bat and cross said body of water? Certain altitudes, certain streams/rivers, etc? Comes straight from the Monster Manual, vampires, for what ever reason can not cross running water. The depth of the water is not specified, but I assume it has to be at least deep enough that they risk total immersion should they fall in. As to why this happens, I haven't a clue. Upon total immersion in running water, a vampire loses 1/3 of it's hit points per round, until it is destroyed on the third round. Maybe that's why they don't really feel like risking a fly over? Creatures that possessed a swim speed prior to becoming a vampire are immune to the water weakness, but I believe they trade in some other abilities to balance it out again. Personally, I don't really see why a Vampire couldn't fly over a river, or as was suggested earlier, be catapulted across it. They could certainly teleport or Dimension Door across it if they had the resources to do so. Divine spellcasters (unless otherwise noted) have no need for such an eight hour "do-nothing" period, but any spells they cast in the eight hours prior to regaining spells are considered used when preperation time comes, so the slot can't be re-used. However, any other activity -- even if it's vigorous -- is fine so long as it doesn't involve casting spells. Most cleric's do have a certain time of day they pray for spells.
Slagger the Chuul 04-17-08, 08:18 PM	Personally, I don't really see why a Vampire couldn't fly over a river, or as was suggested earlier, be catapulted across it. They could certainly teleport or Dimension Door across it if they had the resources to do so. Sometimes it is suggested that they are unable to even attempt passing over water of their own will, even though there is no physical barrier preventing them. They can't really control themselves, and to a certain extent it seems to similar with other vampire limitations (like being unable to enter a place without being invited, or hating garlic or holy symbols). Historically, vampires behave like someone with a mental disorder (or several); they're utterly phobic of some things, simply cannot bring themselves to do others, and have also demonstrated obsessive-compulsive behaviour (one defense I recall involved throwing a knotted rope at a vampire, which would then feel compelled to stop and unravel the knots).
pigknight 04-17-08, 11:19 PM	Is Monk a daywalker then?
DKase 04-18-08, 01:57 AM	Is Monk a daywalker then? Heh, funny. I've yet to see him drink blood, but it'd explain a lot of the quirks if the vampire OCD thing is accurate. An inherent psychological disorder would make sense in explaining alot of the Vampire's odder weaknesses. I usually think that things that held particular meaning to a vampire in life determine what it's particular phobia's are. I.E. A vampire would only be held at bay by a holy symbol only if they worshipped that faith in life (turning would work regardless of the cleric's faith however). But that's just me.
Slagger the Chuul 04-18-08, 02:05 AM	PC #1: "We'll cross the bridge" Vampire: "I can't cross running water" PC #1: "The water's underneath, you can just walk across" Vampire: "I told you, I can't cross running water" PC #1: "What? Why? Just walk across" Vampire: "I just can't do it." PC #2: I'm getting the catapult.
pres_man 04-18-08, 10:13 AM	I like to use Secret Chest with my coffin. This works really well as your 5th level sp ability if you get spell stitched. With a standard action your coffin apears next to you. And as a standard action (Or 10 minutes if you actually have to cast it) it goes back hidden on the ethreal plane. And summoning it from its hiding place requiers only that you concentrate on doing so, thus you shouldnt have any trouble summoning it to you even when in gaseous form. this gives you 2 hours to go to any random, safe place where you can hide for an hour. Also, it says it has a 75% chance to fail if there are any LIVING creatures in it. If you have an undead servant to gaurd you while you rest, (And you should. If you dont, just go murder a peasent that noone will notice and get a spawn till you find something better) you may stick him in your coffin when you arnt using it. Then, when you need your coffin, he gets out and stands guard. Plus he can fluff your pillows and such for you. This is cool up until the point you get beat down and must immediately return to your coffin while in gaseous form (assuming you have to cast a spell to summon the coffin).
ToastedAmphibian 04-18-08, 06:15 PM	This is cool up until the point you get beat down and must immediately return to your coffin while in gaseous form (assuming you have to cast a spell to summon the coffin). See, now I know you didn't read the spells description! The absolute best part, you dont cast the spell to summon the chest back. You cast the spell to send the chest away. To bring it back, you need only spend a standard action "Concentrating". That ends the spell and plops the chest down beside you. Nothing about being in gaseous form says you cannot concentrate :}
Hellsbells 04-18-08, 07:16 PM	On a simmilar note what constitutes crossing running water? Can they or can they not fly over a river? Can they burrow under one? What about a small stream, is that running water?
Kursk 04-18-08, 07:58 PM	Creatures that possessed a swim speed prior to becoming a vampire are immune to the water weakness, but I believe they trade in some other abilities to balance it out again. Really? I don't remember that from the MM.
ToastedAmphibian 04-18-08, 08:01 PM	Nowhere does it really elaborate on what it means by not crossing running water. I think the best reasoning i have ever heard for it was listed above, its a kind of phobia. For a rules standpoint, i think it should center on intent. If a vampire is at point A, and wants to go to point B, they cannot, if there is running water between point A and point B. They wont fly over it, they wont go under it, they wont jump it, they wont swim it. Its not neceseralliy so much that they are PHYSICALLY incapable, but are psycologically or spiritually incapable. With spider climb, gaseous form, and batshape abilites, there are preciouse few places that a vampire cannot enter. If a vampire happens to be tunneling under the earth, i dont think that he will be adversly affected by a river above him, assuming he isnt aware of it. Actually, now that I think about it, thats a rather silly example. Rather, should a vampire be walking down the street, i dont think he would have to stop due to a river in the underdark. Now, if he found a river in the underdark, climbed up a giant stairwell, walk across the surface of the earth, and then came back down, in an effort to cross the river..... well i dont think he would be able to do that. I guess that, in my mind, it falls into a category with vow of poverty. If your trying to circumvent it, your breaking it. But thats just my opinion obviously.
ToastedAmphibian 04-18-08, 08:05 PM	Really? I don't remember that from the MM. Monster manual, or not. Memory, or not. Its in the SRD. Here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm Speed Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below). Oddly, i guess you could read that to mean that they may swim, but may not swim in order to cross running water. And, RAW, that would be the correct interpretation. Nowhere does it say that it allows them to cross running water, only that immersion dosent kill them and they retaint the ability to swim.
Kursk 04-18-08, 08:13 PM	Monster manual, or not. Memory, or not. Its in the SRD. Here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm Thanks for the data. Oddly, i guess you could read that to mean that they may swim, but may not swim in order to cross running water. And, RAW, that would be the correct interpretation. Nowhere does it say that it allows them to cross running water, only that immersion dosent kill them and they retaint the ability to swim. I would expect ambiguity from ad hoc, non-playtested changes to RAW, which this clearly was.
ToastedAmphibian 04-18-08, 09:26 PM	a sun rode could just be a flare. ? I dont think i understand you clearly, could you please expand your last sentence?
1 ton ghost 04-19-08, 02:21 PM	Perhaps it was Libris Mortis though I am possibly harkening back to 2nd ed Ravenloft more likely ala "Guide to Hunting..." etc. concerning "running water" and its FX. Can't recall specifically. Some streams, gutter works, a street culvert aren't necessarilly in play if I remember correctly, typical river and so on are. A nice nod to that immersion rule/observation in accordance to running water if/if not. Perhaps not a good traditional motivator, but a very apt and well applied mechanical one. That is, D&D is the only system I've seen that pushes the "running water rule". I thought surely in Vamire the Masquerade, but no. That surprised the Hell out of me, cuz', well, the namesake says it all. For the OP; yes, they should sleep as they are a perversion of human life in the classical sense. Polar opposites so to speak. We tend to nod off at night, they in turn are nocturnal. We die, they are immortal. We're amphibious they aren't (see above). We're hunter gatherers, they're parasitic, etc. etc. The rest has been broken down a million times in psychological lyciums and exposes concerning the asthetic quality and mystery thereof. Essentially, the vampire/prey relationship consists of a self-destruction impulse. A willingness to be victimized so to speak in a pseudo-forced encounter scenario. Don't read that as rape mind you so much as a degree of submission to supernatural elements that simply overwhelm fledgling human psyche. ie) You invite them into your home. You submit to their wiles and charms in trash novel romantic fashion. You become more suggestible to their gaze FX, etc. You can/often become their slave ala "Renfield" to serve your ubermensch. The list goes on. We've seen the movies, read the books, played the games. The mystey, as it were, isn't so mysterious really...
StruckingFuggle 04-19-08, 06:38 PM	Wtf, 1 ton ghost? Humans aren't amphibious. Now, if vampires are parasites or not is a bit up in the air, but really, I'd see them more as predators than parasites. But ... amphibious humans? What? We've seen the movies, read the books, played the games. The mystey, as it were, isn't so mysterious really... As a sidenote, Jim Butcher's "The Dresden Files" had a great treatment of this, in that there's four 'courts' of Vampires, all of which are fairly different. The Black Court resemble the traditional Stroker vampires, and in fact their numbers declined significantly after the publication of that book, and 'how to fight them' became more common knowledge. The other three (Red, White, and Jade) are different enough that most of those things don't really apply, so they're still mysterious-ish.
1 ton ghost 04-20-08, 01:51 AM	Perhaps I was too hasty or you are too literal. Sorry if I didn't bust out my copy of Webster's while at was at work. Does it really matter? Being able to work/live/etc. on land and in water was the basic implication, so easy cowboy. The "wtf" and general embellishment isn't helping. Well, not the thread anyway... Humans can traffic in, around, through water, flowing or otherwise. Not vamps. Is that b/w enough? I can't simplify that anymore. :( I do have a dictionary at home now though. For what it's worth... "parasite n. an organism living in or on another living organism and deriving its nutriment partly (energy drain too?) or wholly from it." Now in my relatively besmirched grammatical esteem, not sure. You got me there by the letter of the law so to speak. It's cool though. Though, from a modicum of what I remember from bio though, I'd say that definition is spot on. They're hemovores to boot (most blood drinkers are parasites in nature), only mankind's bounty can sustain them, their (un)natural gifts are designed to facilitate that end (feeding), etc. etc. Parasitism is predatory if you want to go by definitions. Though predators are not necessarilly parasites. Usually predation is a kill and feed scenario. Many vamps, smart ones anyway, don't kill indiscriminately. Bodies piling up often lead to angry mobs or untimely wake-up calls during high noon...
ToastedAmphibian 04-22-08, 05:14 PM	Hmm.... why was i talking about sunrods? I think i pasted the wrong text, that was for another thread on alchemy. I hope i didnt paste the intended quote from this thread there..... Anyways, the quote i had intended to ask for clarification about was this one. I would expect ambiguity from ad hoc, non-playtested changes to RAW, which this clearly was. What exactly are you saying here? I figure its polite to ask first before getting cranky over it.....
StruckingFuggle 04-22-08, 06:39 PM	Sorry, Ghost, my post was meant to be more tongue-in-cheek than it ended up being.
1 ton ghost 04-23-08, 11:51 AM	Sorry, Ghost, my post was meant to be more tongue-in-cheek than it ended up being. Say no more, you were right in checking my otherwise quickly posted zoological error. I should've know better anyway so I stand corrected. My ego/pride is not so big in this regard. Everyone always want to take it personally and I can't understand that. Too stubborn to learn I guess. At least you weren't a di-k about it or anything. There are so many ppl on here that leap at the opportunity to blast any perceived error or mistake no matter how trivial so they can feel superior. Typically using what little power they have on the forum cuz' they often have little to none in the real world. I just can't stand the unappreciated scholars, social and academic 1-upmanship and all the bloated superegos posting here trying to be king of the hill. But yeah, long story short, you are right in calling attention to an otherwise bone head mistake on my part, but this is how I learn. Respect. Anyway, there's no hard and fast text concerning vamps and sleep then? That's the final consensus, yes? I guess I just like the fact that the PCs have to stay awake at night lest they get a coup de grace and then slowly but surely divine where chummly is in the daytime, find that locale, kill his henchmen, and exhume the casket for a classical hammer and stake routine.
Ananvilhurtz 04-23-08, 01:24 PM	Could a vampire accidentally cross running water? Say, if he was flying above the clouds and failed to notice a river under him? Could he be forcefully thrown across a running stream?
Ananvilhurtz 04-23-08, 01:39 PM	Could he build a dam so that the water pools and is no longer running?
ToastedAmphibian 04-23-08, 06:01 PM	There really are not any good answers to thoes questions anvil. Youd have to ask your DM personally. If you are the DM, youll have to make something up. Just be consistent with it.
StruckingFuggle 04-23-08, 06:49 PM	Could he build a dam so that the water pools and is no longer running? ... ... ... :D ... Can I use that idea?
Slagger the Chuul 04-23-08, 08:47 PM	If a vampire mage wants to play Moses, there's also control water. :)
mrmo33 04-28-08, 10:28 PM	In ancient times, running water such as streams or rivers served two primary purposes other than water for drinking/irrigation: they were used to clean things, and they were used to dispose of things. Holy water is blessed to provide spiritual cleansing. As a creature w/o a soul, the sin and filth that holy water washes away are all that a vampire is. That's why it's so effective against them. The cleansing effect of running water threatens them similarly. Filths relegated to the river or ocean were effectively disposed of, unlike buried filths which could be dug back up my animals and "come back to haunt" the community with diseases like dyptheria. Personally i like lots of different types of vamps (a la V:TM) with different stat blocks, abilities, and descriptions. I also add certain anne rice elements i.e. they don't need coffins but have a strong predilection for them. I'd also like to point out that very few vampire mythologies include them eating humans exclusively. That seems to me to be the key point in the predator/parasite discussion.