Do you lose skill rank from a template that reduces INT? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do you lose skill rank from a template that reduces INT? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gonzoron
06-06-04, 06:46 PM just like the subject says. I don't know if there are any official templates that decrease INT, but the Dread Revenant from Ravenloft's Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead does. When applying such a template, would you lose skill ranks?
Ogre4Hire
06-06-04, 07:24 PM I believe (but am not sure) that there's an official rule that states that you cannot gain or lose skill points retroactively.

Basically, I would say that the creature has the same number of skill points as the base creature, however it would not gain as many skill points the next time that it advanced in HD.
Walter Russ
06-11-04, 03:14 AM Unless the Template description says to recalculate skill points, you do not do so; it still has the exact number of ranks in each skill as it had before the template was applied. The bonuses for the skills themselves may very well change however if any of the ability scores were altered.
An example where you do redo skill points from scratch is the Half-Dragon template. In that case it specifically tells you that you reallocate skills based on a new amount (6+Int mod.) x (HD+3), with all of the old skills from the base creature being treated as class skills. Since the template increases Int by +2, that means that sometimes a creature can max out it's skills and have to take some cross-class skills at 2 skill points per rank.
Thus, usually there is no retroactive change in skill ranks, but when the monster advances in HD, it uses it's new Int modifier and the old (base) creature's amount of base skill points.
Sarig the Genie
06-11-04, 07:22 AM The one exception I know of, being dragons, who gain retroactive skill points.
Hammerclaw
06-14-04, 09:22 PM Can anyone point to a solid reference for the rules. I sort of see it in the MM 3.5, but it is sort of hazy. I can understand with acquired templates that skills points wouldn't change with changes to intelligence, but it would affect any future accumulation due to advancement.

But with the other type of templates, the ones a creature is born with, it would seem a recalculation would be in order if the template affected intelligence. Clearly it does with the half-dragon, half-fiend, and half-celestial templates, but that is because of the change in type, but for the others it would seem a recalculation is in order if there is a change in intelligence, because the change would have been in effect since the day it was born.

I am also interested in the standard and elite arrays that could be added.

Now with the standard array (+2/+2/+0/+0/-2/-2) if your using it for a variety of birth without to much work, then I can see a recalculation in order because your saying the creature was born with the change. But, if your using it to show a progression of age, such as a troll getting older and you apply the negatives to physical stats and the positives to mental stats, then skill points shouldn't change unless advancement occurs.

With the elite array, most often it would be used to indicate a creature born above average than other creatures of its species, so change in skill points would be indicitive. A case for after adult-hood change could be made for story reasons, in which case, recallculating skill points wouldn't be called for.

Bottom line. If some could quote a solid reference, it really would be helpful. I'll pour over the MM and SS tonight myself, but anyone else, feel free to chime in.
Walter Russ
06-15-04, 05:47 AM Monster Manual 3.5, "Templates", page 293 under the section "skills" says "changing a monster's type does not always change its skill points". It further states that most templates don't change how skill points are calculated, but some may and you have to check the entry. If you're still stuck, page 293 also has "Adding a Template, Step-by-Step". That will take you through it.
It does not matter if it is an aquired template or not, the fact is you do not change amounts of ranks unless the template entry under "skills" tells you to. Monsters with templates do not follow the same rules as normal monsters do when it comes to calculating skill points.
Hammerclaw
06-15-04, 06:32 AM Thanks Russ. I found those references last night and Savage Species has the same paragraphs on the subject word for word. So basically, only change the number of skill points and their assignment if the template tells you.

For the Non-Elite and Elite Arrays for ability scores it would depend on the circumstances that you are using them to modify statistics. Thanks.
Walter Russ
06-15-04, 02:09 PM Right, but the different arrays are not templates, they're just nonstandard ways of assigning ability scores and you definately would use a nonstandard-array monster's INT as a factor in determining its skill points. If you wanted to, you could give a monster an 18 INT (which would add 7 or 8 to its listed INT) and max out its skill points. In this case, the monster in question would quite probably have to take some cross-class skills as its ranks in the class skills would be maxed-out and would proabably have some points left over.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gonzoron 06-06-04, 06:46 PM	just like the subject says. I don't know if there are any official templates that decrease INT, but the Dread Revenant from Ravenloft's Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead does. When applying such a template, would you lose skill ranks?
Ogre4Hire 06-06-04, 07:24 PM	I believe (but am not sure) that there's an official rule that states that you cannot gain or lose skill points retroactively. Basically, I would say that the creature has the same number of skill points as the base creature, however it would not gain as many skill points the next time that it advanced in HD.
Walter Russ 06-11-04, 03:14 AM	Unless the Template description says to recalculate skill points, you do not do so; it still has the exact number of ranks in each skill as it had before the template was applied. The bonuses for the skills themselves may very well change however if any of the ability scores were altered. An example where you do redo skill points from scratch is the Half-Dragon template. In that case it specifically tells you that you reallocate skills based on a new amount (6+Int mod.) x (HD+3), with all of the old skills from the base creature being treated as class skills. Since the template increases Int by +2, that means that sometimes a creature can max out it's skills and have to take some cross-class skills at 2 skill points per rank. Thus, usually there is no retroactive change in skill ranks, but when the monster advances in HD, it uses it's new Int modifier and the old (base) creature's amount of base skill points.
Sarig the Genie 06-11-04, 07:22 AM	The one exception I know of, being dragons, who gain retroactive skill points.
Hammerclaw 06-14-04, 09:22 PM	Can anyone point to a solid reference for the rules. I sort of see it in the MM 3.5, but it is sort of hazy. I can understand with acquired templates that skills points wouldn't change with changes to intelligence, but it would affect any future accumulation due to advancement. But with the other type of templates, the ones a creature is born with, it would seem a recalculation would be in order if the template affected intelligence. Clearly it does with the half-dragon, half-fiend, and half-celestial templates, but that is because of the change in type, but for the others it would seem a recalculation is in order if there is a change in intelligence, because the change would have been in effect since the day it was born. I am also interested in the standard and elite arrays that could be added. Now with the standard array (+2/+2/+0/+0/-2/-2) if your using it for a variety of birth without to much work, then I can see a recalculation in order because your saying the creature was born with the change. But, if your using it to show a progression of age, such as a troll getting older and you apply the negatives to physical stats and the positives to mental stats, then skill points shouldn't change unless advancement occurs. With the elite array, most often it would be used to indicate a creature born above average than other creatures of its species, so change in skill points would be indicitive. A case for after adult-hood change could be made for story reasons, in which case, recallculating skill points wouldn't be called for. Bottom line. If some could quote a solid reference, it really would be helpful. I'll pour over the MM and SS tonight myself, but anyone else, feel free to chime in.
Walter Russ 06-15-04, 05:47 AM	Monster Manual 3.5, "Templates", page 293 under the section "skills" says "changing a monster's type does not always change its skill points". It further states that most templates don't change how skill points are calculated, but some may and you have to check the entry. If you're still stuck, page 293 also has "Adding a Template, Step-by-Step". That will take you through it. It does not matter if it is an aquired template or not, the fact is you do not change amounts of ranks unless the template entry under "skills" tells you to. Monsters with templates do not follow the same rules as normal monsters do when it comes to calculating skill points.
Hammerclaw 06-15-04, 06:32 AM	Thanks Russ. I found those references last night and Savage Species has the same paragraphs on the subject word for word. So basically, only change the number of skill points and their assignment if the template tells you. For the Non-Elite and Elite Arrays for ability scores it would depend on the circumstances that you are using them to modify statistics. Thanks.
Walter Russ 06-15-04, 02:09 PM	Right, but the different arrays are not templates, they're just nonstandard ways of assigning ability scores and you definately would use a nonstandard-array monster's INT as a factor in determining its skill points. If you wanted to, you could give a monster an 18 INT (which would add 7 or 8 to its listed INT) and max out its skill points. In this case, the monster in question would quite probably have to take some cross-class skills as its ranks in the class skills would be maxed-out and would proabably have some points left over.