Post/Author/DateTime	Post
prospero63 05-17-04, 11:26 PM	Hola. Looking for a rule clarification, hopefully with a reference to a FAQ/errata. In the SRD it says the following: Slaying a Vampire: Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent). Now, does the part in bold mean that if you cut off their heads (for example with a vorpal weapon) they don't immediately go gaseous, allowing you to fill the mouth with holy wafers to kill them dead for example? I think it does, but am not sure... and it will probably be really relevant in the near future. TIA.
Jc3 05-18-04, 12:27 AM	I believe what the authors were proposing was that first you stake the vampire, which slays it. Leaving the stake in the heart, you then you cut off the head and fill it with holy wafers so that if someone pulls the stake out, the undead abomination is still pretty much up the creek. I'm frankly unsure what would happen if you beheaded a D&D vampire with a vorpal weapon. Check out the specific mention of vampire in the DMG's vorpal weapon description:Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off.This states that undead other than vampires are not affected by the loss of their head. This implies--not explicitly, mind you--that the vampire is slain when it loses its head to a vorpal weapon. This would certainly keep in line with the "new" vampire lore propagated by shows like Buffy and Angel, where all vampires instantly die if beheaded. This is further supported if you take a look at the fast healing ability, which vampires have, in the DMG:Unless otherwise stated, (fast healing) does not allow lost body parts to be reattached.Then you have the vampire's fast healing entry:If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape.So, we have established that a vorpal weapon, which can allegedly affect vampires, typically kills a creature. If we take kill to mean, dead, then in D&D terms, we're talking about -10. Ergo, a vorpal weapon can reduce a vampire to -10, far beyond the 0 hit points it requires to become gaseous and flee, thus slaying it permanently. Mystery solved! Beheading slays a vampire.
the Horc 05-18-04, 01:24 AM	I would rule that Vorpaling an undead (except vampire) is effective in the sense that it will highly disorient the blasted thing. It wont die, but it will have to fight with its head on the floor, so, I would rule that it would at least be like trying to fight a gazing monster while actively avoiding its face. Rule 0 is a wonderful thing
Chronomage 05-18-04, 03:45 AM	The idea of a vampire dying from a loss of its head, dates earlier than Buffy. Think Bram Stoker's Dracula (filmmaker Francis Ford Coppolas). I would rule that cutting off the head immediately reduces it to gaseous form and -10 hit points, meaning it has to do the whole hours flight and regen before it can start healing normally. Also, to properly kill the vampire, there are the 3 ways, as always: 1) stake through the heart in addition to filling the mouth with holy wafers, than cutting off the head and throwing it into a river or body of flowing water; 2) letting the vampire be revealed to full impact sunlight (full impact sunlight; sounds cool); 3) Forcing a vampire, either concious or locked in it's coffin, beneath the flowing waters of a river BTW, does anyone else wish vampires in D&D were forced to be unconcsious during day time, rather than simply conscious and out of the direct rays?
Kaminton 05-18-04, 06:13 AM	Related question: Do other effects that destroy undead (but do not deal damage) destroy vampires, or do they also turn to gas and regenerate? Such as a sufficiently high turn check, and some spells. Also, do spells that produce bright lights (daylight, sunbeam, sunburst...) destroy vampires as natural sunlight? What about large quantities of water? Such as a decanter of endless water in geyser mode?
was_fired 05-18-04, 06:40 AM	A high enough turn check can destroy any undead. Daylight has no effect but sunbeam and sunburst instantly destroy a vampire if they fail the reflex save. It says so right there is the spell description. Depends on how your DM rules imersed in water. I read it as being in enough water that breathing air normally is impossible so decanters doesn't function. If your DM calls it differently then it might work.
Chronomage 05-18-04, 07:36 AM	It's questionable whether those spells destroy the vampire completely, or if they just force it back in gaseous form to its coffin. That's usually the way I've ran it (played BG series, and that was the way they ran it too).
Jc3 05-18-04, 10:57 AM	Originally posted by Chronomage I would rule that cutting off the head immediately reduces it to gaseous form and -10 hit points, meaning it has to do the whole hours flight and regen before it can start healing normally.Ah, but in v3.5, -10 is dead, so the vampire wouldn't be able to go gaseous and flee, would it? I'm not pointing that out to be annoying, just consistent. Which segues nicely into...BTW, does anyone else wish vampires in D&D were forced to be unconcsious during day time, rather than simply conscious and out of the direct rays? Yes! Or if not unconscious, perhaps at negative levels or only able to take a single action each round. The idea of a vampire hovering in the shadows of a brightly lit street is ludicrous to me. It's even worse on television, where they can just cover any exposed skin and run to get out of the sun.
NightScreamer20 05-18-04, 12:08 PM	It matters what kind of vampires you are speaking about...I mean I have friends that cover themselves up with white paint and avoid sunlight at all costs...and they seem perfectly fine to me... *snicker*
prospero63 05-18-04, 01:37 PM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Chronomage I would rule that cutting off the head immediately reduces it to gaseous form and -10 hit points, meaning it has to do the whole hours flight and regen before it can start healing normally. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, but in v3.5, -10 is dead, so the vampire wouldn't be able to go gaseous and flee, would it? I'm not pointing that out to be annoying, just consistent. This is also the core of the dispute in how our group is looking at the subject. Some folks think that they go gaseous. Others think it should kill them. Unfortunately the rules are ambiguous on the subject... Does anyone have an official reference on the subject? Otherwise the conversation is so far pretty much exactly what the game table conversation has been, with many of the same points being raised. Thanks for all of the discussion.
ChaoticGod 05-18-04, 01:54 PM	The undead are typically destroyed at 0 hp. They don't have a negative scale since they aren't really alive. Thus the worst you can do, hp-wise, to a D&D vampire is reduce it to 0 hp. Even beheading will only reduce it to 0 hp. And at 0 hp D&D vampires go gaseous . . .
prospero63 05-18-04, 02:04 PM	Originally posted by ChaoticGod The undead are typically destroyed at 0 hp. They don't have a negative scale since they aren't really alive. Thus the worst you can do, hp-wise, to a D&D vampire is reduce it to 0 hp. Even beheading will only reduce it to 0 hp. And at 0 hp D&D vampires go gaseous . . . Then how are you supposed to cut off their heads and put holy wafers in their mouths? Under the section titled "Slaying Vampires" is states "A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent)." which seems to me to imply that the whole process (beheading and then the wafers) is a valid slaying technique... This is... more confusing than it should be...
ChaoticGod 05-18-04, 02:12 PM	In its gaseous state the vampire must return to its coffin, at which point it reforms. After an hour or so (don't have my book in hand) its Fast Healing kicks in again. This is the window of opportunity to stake the vampire. Staking prevents Fast Healing. However the stake can be removed thus bringin the vampire back. To prevent this the vampire is also beheaded. Since Fast Healing can't reattach its head the vampire is effectively finished. Actually you could probably skip the staking part by these rules but stakes are part of the myth. But if you want that reassuring pile of ashes, you need fire or sunlight to destroy the remains.
Northwest 05-19-04, 09:50 PM	One very good method would be to buy vorpal abilities for fighters in your group so that they have incentive to face the vampires. Give them more treasure, etc too.
prospero63 05-19-04, 09:56 PM	Originally posted by Northwest One very good method would be to buy vorpal abilities for fighters in your group so that they have incentive to face the vampires. Give them more treasure, etc too. We have a fighter with vorpal abilities, which is what caused this discussion in the first place (and as a note, the game happens to be in the Houston area).
Northwest 05-19-04, 10:02 PM	well, I would recommend enchanting any other fighters with it as well
prospero63 05-19-04, 10:23 PM	Originally posted by Northwest well, I would recommend enchanting any other fighters with it as well Sure, unless beheading doesn't kill vampires, in which case it would suck.
Chronomage 05-19-04, 10:56 PM	Originally posted by prospero63 Sure, unless beheading doesn't kill vampires, in which case it would suck. :rofl:
prospero63 05-19-04, 10:58 PM	Yeah, knucklehead is one of the players in the game messing with me. Seriously, has anyone seen any concrete rule on whether beheading kills a vampire?
Gez 05-20-04, 11:51 AM	Yes, in Vampire: the Masquerade... Seriously, interpret the rules as you wish. I consider a beheaded vampire is destroyed, game over for it.
prospero63 05-20-04, 12:32 PM	Originally posted by Gez Yes, in Vampire: the Masquerade... Seriously, interpret the rules as you wish. I consider a beheaded vampire is destroyed, game over for it. I understand, but I am not the DM. Consequently, I have to provide proof that the DM is incorrectly interpreting the rules, which requires something more solid than my interpretation <g> Unfortunately the DM reads that last sentence to be applying to the previous sentence, not the section. Nevermind that grammatically that doesn't make sense and nevermind that none of the other sentences apply to the previous sentence. Also, discount that other statements in that section expressly mention destroying a vampire, but the beheading does not. I guess I need to wait for a clarification from WoTC as frankly I need something of more substance than opinion on the subject (we already have like 7 opinions on the subject at the game table as is). Thanks.
Kesh 05-20-04, 10:03 PM	Originally posted by Jc3 Yes! Or if not unconscious, perhaps at negative levels or only able to take a single action each round. The idea of a vampire hovering in the shadows of a brightly lit street is ludicrous to me. It's even worse on television, where they can just cover any exposed skin and run to get out of the sun. actually, if you read Dracula, the villain had no problem going about in the daytime. It's simply that he lost most of his power while exposed to the light of day. Dracula wasn't harmed one bit by a suntan.