Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sarelle 01-17-04, 07:42 PM	With the Book of Exalted Deeds out, making transforming any evil creature BUT an outsider with the evil subtype a possibility but for ridiculously high cost and duration to take effect with Sanctify the Wicked, and Savage Species casually talking about good fiends I'm very confused. Simply would a good old miracle spell just remove evil (or any alignment) subtype? I know it is down to the DM, but what is the general consensus?
Thomar_of_Uointer 01-17-04, 07:59 PM	I'd say an extra cost of 2000 XP per HD of demon, but it depends on what demon we're talking about here, plus a fairly easy will save (DC 20). And you'd need divine approval.
Paragon_Squirrel 01-17-04, 08:19 PM	I think what you propose is the easy way out of converting evil creatures. However, if you REALLY wanted to (I personally hate how wish is being degraded into something not even resembling the reality-altering force it once was) I would say it would cost 1,500 XP per hit dice and work automatically. Anything more or less seems..... punishing...... to say the least......... But as you said, yes, the DM has the last word, and I can easily see this to be dismissed as, like the first sentencem the easy way out of converting evil creatures, and thus looked down upon.
Sweet Steph 01-18-04, 02:12 AM	Miracle might be able to turn fiends good (though I'd at least allow them a Will save, and Mind Blank would render them immune). However... If Miracle can change a fiend's alignment to Good, it should be able to convert a celestial to Evil. It's only fair.
Ceran 01-18-04, 10:43 AM	But remember, a fiend can have an alignement change, but it would still have his evil subtype. I think it was in the descriptions at the end of MM I saw that. So I'd require another wish/miracle to remove the subtype.
Rotipher 01-18-04, 02:27 PM	Remember that if you let Good PCs use Wish or Miracle to change a fiend's subtype, an Evil NPC can use the same spells to change a fiend servant's subtype, making the servant immune to spells and other effects that target that subtype.... ;-)
Ceran 01-18-04, 03:12 PM	Excellent point! But remember that changing subtype and alignment isn't the same. That was my initial point in my last post.
Incenjucar 01-18-04, 03:30 PM	There's also a spell in the BoED that allows you to not only convert a fiend (after using a Savage Species trick), but to grant them new, goodly abilities.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-19-04, 08:23 PM	To an extent I think it borders on metagaming to think about such game mechanics terms as subtype and using spells to alter them. I don't really like the way they presenting the redemption of fiends in the BoED. It's rare but it can and has happened. I personally don't like the idea of using a Miracle to alter a fiend's alignment. A PC's alignment perhaps, but not a being that is the physical representation of the abstract concept of LE, NE, or CE. If deities could do such a thing with ease, it would alter the way the Blood War was fought, and it would likely expand it to spill out onto the upper planes as well. You'd for example see Primus of the Modrons using such spells to convert the alignment of chaotic creatures. There's a reason why deities stay about as far away from the War Eternal as possible, their meddling would risk expanding it beyond its current status quo. If you care to do so in your own campaigns, go right ahead, but there's some logical fallout from allowing it to work as such.
Rotipher 01-20-04, 01:39 PM	Hmmmm. Maybe using Wish or Miracle to turn a fiend Good could simply turn it into a celestial of comparable CR, game-stats, appearance, mindset and all...? That's if we assume such beings are the literal embodiments of the alignments they profess, rather than just indigenous Outer Planar races.
Ceran 01-20-04, 02:32 PM	After some thought, I'd say you can turn a fiend good, but never change the subtype. Why? The subtype is a part of the fiends very being, and changing it would (as suggested above) turn it into a celestial.
Edymnion 01-20-04, 05:35 PM	I would say not. After all, Miracle is the direct intervention of your patron deity, so things are still limited by the power of the god. If the gods can change the alignment of fiends and solars at will, why haven't they? Why don't all the good gods just band up, turn all the demons of the pits of hell Good, then destroy evil in one fell swoop. Or vice versa, why don't the evil gods do this and storm the heavens? I'd say its because they can't, so even a Miracle or Wish spell is incapable of altering the alignment of fiends or celestrials against their wills. But, extending this out, if a Miracle can change the alignment and outlook of a fiend, why would you ever need to fight anyone ever again after gaining Miracle? BBEG razing cities? Just cast Miracle and suddenly make him Lawful Good. There, problem solved. Or better yet, the Lawful Evil cleric that starts casting Miracle to turn the PCs into Chaotic Evil underlings. No, thinking of it that way, I definatly wouldn't let even Miracle have this sort of effect. At most, it would make a Helm of Opposing Alignment appear at your feat and you'd have to put it on the enemy yourself.
Ceran 01-21-04, 09:09 AM	XP cost, enourmous XP cost is the answer. Why would gods waste much power on one outsider? At any rate, I'm glad my players haven't thought of this yet (;
wdarkk 01-21-04, 01:26 PM	With the Rituals section of Savage Species, you could change an outsider's alignment with the Ritual of Alignment by giving it a new subtype. It requires a willing outsider, though.
Eco-Mono 01-22-04, 01:22 AM	The suggested method for converting a normal creature to a different alignment is Diplomacy checks opposed to Will saves once a day; one who fails the save for a week drifts one step closer to the desired alignment. I personally like this method, but to be absolutely sure that it was really the target's own decision, I add an extra caveat: the player of the character, or the DM if it's an NPC, may refuse the alignment change. This is discouraged, but the option is still there, so that no-one can say that the conversion was "forced" or "bypassing free will". Now for the topic at hand: converting fiends. I would allow a Miracle to remove the "always" from an exemplar's alignment, and it would not cost XP. However, this does not actually changethe alignment itself. Once the write-protect has been removed from their alignment via Miracle, they must be convinced to become good, just like anyone else. And should any exemplar convert to its natural opposite (a fiend become good for example), I'd allow another Wish or Miracle (XP cost applies) to switch its spell-like abilities and descriptor to a more appropriate form.
isaac_the_mauler 01-22-04, 08:47 PM	in oriental adventures there is an alignment shifting spell. its called compel. components v, s df casting time1 round range close target 1 creature duration permanent saving throw will negates sr yes you force the subject of the spell to change alignment, specifying the creatures new alignment. Creatures whose alignments are always a specific alignment get a +4 bonus to their saving throw. outsiders with an alignment based type modifier(chaotic, evil, good, lawful)are immune to this effect. alteration in alignmentis mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by this spell thoroughly enjoyes its new outlook.if the subjects comrades have an alignment outlook that differs significantly from his he may abandon them or even take actions against them. this is up to the discretion of the dm;the spell has no effecton determining this, as it is more a matter of conscience. level 8 spell i hope this helps
Josh_Kablack 01-22-04, 11:58 PM	I don't know nor care about the BoED, but as per 3.5 core rules, Miracle can change the alignment of a fiend and it can also change the subtype, although each requires a seperate casting and it doesn't work quite as obviously as you might think. Here're the relevant rules quotes and correct procedure for doing so: Miracle can duplicate the effects of any clerical spell of 8th level or lower (PHB 254) Atonement is a 5th level clerical spell which allows a creature to have its alignment changed. Ergo, Miracle can duplicate Atonement and change the alignment of a fiend. The only potential problem is that the fiend has to be willing (and not under compulsion) to change its alignment - and some DMs view fiends as not capable of making such a choice. As per the definition of the Evil subtype on MM 308-309, when a creature of the evil subtype changes alignment it retains the evil subtype. This is important because it clearly indicates that [Evil] creatures can in fact change alignment. In the core rules fiends are considered capable of making alignment shifting choices - so we now know that we can have a willing fiend for our Atonement. This is also important, because it indicates that even after such an atonement, we have a Good-aligned creature with the [Evil] subtype. Thus our next problem is to get rid of such a subtype. Fortunately Miracle can also duplicate the effects of any other spell of 7th level or lower. (PHB 254) Baleful Polymorph is a 5th level spell. (PHB 202) With a permanent duration. Thus Miracle can duplicate Baleful Polymorph. Baleful Polymorph works largely "As polymorph...." (PHB 202) aside from restrictions on the form assumed. As per the description of Polymorph (PHB 263) "The subject's creature type and subtype change." Thus Miracle can change and remove subtypes. So if you cast Miracle twice on a willing fiend, it can go from being an Evil-Aligned Evil Outsider to being a Good Aligned Animal (with no alignment subtype). Of course if you hit it with a sufficiently strong greater dispelling it reverts to being a Good-Aligned Evil Outsider (aka a Good Fiend). Now Miracle can also "have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects". So feel free to extrapolate other judgements from this strange path of animalistic redemption. Personally, the only objection I can see to letting Miracle directly remove the [Evil] Subtype from a fiend without having to turn it into a turtle to do so, is that if you change the alignment subtype of a fiend, it ceases to be a "fiend" anymore and becomes something else instead.
The Ethereal Wickerman 01-23-04, 05:12 PM	Like some people have said, i boubt even gods could alter a demons alignment. I would say that a good alignment in a fiend would have to be a self-made choice. Then again i'd say that miracle or wish spells cant tamper with anyones alignment, let alone fiends. :behold:
The Colonel 01-23-04, 10:36 PM	Hmmm ... if you're a DM, say, faced with this problem, your first idea might be that, as 'traditional theology' might have it, fiends and celestials do not have free will and so you can obviate that dilemma, but the wholesale conversion of one into another poses problems. In theory the divine powers could use this as a weapon of war but we have already established that it uses a lot of power. Deities are traditionally pictured as having infinite power, but this raises a question of cause and effect. In game pseudo-mechanic: There is a 'cosmic balance' in all directions across the alignment table. When a deity uses power there is a Chatelian response from the universe that causes the 'other side' to gain access to that power, so this gives them an incentive not to intervene. After all if (say) Heironymus transforms a chaotic evil demon into a lawful good archon, somewhere the chaotic evil powers gain an equivalent amount of leverage, which they might use to transform an archon into a demon ... or not... So if you ask your diety to do this (cast miracle) his first response should be 'Why?'
Sarelle 02-09-04, 11:57 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion I would say not. After all, Miracle is the direct intervention of your patron deity, so things are still limited by the power of the god. If the gods can change the alignment of fiends and solars at will, why haven't they? Why don't all the good gods just band up, turn all the demons of the pits of hell Good, then destroy evil in one fell swoop. Or vice versa, why don't the evil gods do this and storm the heavens? I'd say its because they can't, so even a Miracle or Wish spell is incapable of altering the alignment of fiends or celestrials against their wills. But, extending this out, if a Miracle can change the alignment and outlook of a fiend, why would you ever need to fight anyone ever again after gaining Miracle? BBEG razing cities? Just cast Miracle and suddenly make him Lawful Good. There, problem solved. Or better yet, the Lawful Evil cleric that starts casting Miracle to turn the PCs into Chaotic Evil underlings. No, thinking of it that way, I definatly wouldn't let even Miracle have this sort of effect. At most, it would make a Helm of Opposing Alignment appear at your feat and you'd have to put it on the enemy yourself. I'm afraid I can't see that makes sense. Equally (or more so) why don't gods go and destroy every fiend. They all have such power, so why not? Why don't they convert every mortal to their own alignment - even barring if another deity opposes them (there ARE deities - not to mention a dozen or so Archdevils & deposed archdevils, and an infinite number of Demon Lords - that would fight to their deaths before they saw all fiends turned good)? The reason I wanted the evil subtype removed was because I assumed that an alignment subtype makes that alignment part of the very essense of that being - so it would be impossible to not be that alignment. However, I'm not one to argue with the MM! Still... it would be better if a fiend who was a good PC wasn't affected by spells that affect evil outsiders, so I don't think the question has been made redundant.
Nifft 02-09-04, 12:33 PM	I'd allow Atonement to do the job for a willing, repentant demon, at great personal cost to the demon in question -- it would lose most of its powers. -- N