Does turning into a vampire change your alignment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Does turning into a vampire change your alignment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
skywyze
02-14-05, 02:30 PM It says in the MM that all vampires are evil. But if you're a good person who is transformed into a vampire, do you not retain any of your former self? Do you lose all class levels and start over from scratch? What happens, mechanically, when you're transformed?

Any insights welcome.
Melpomene
02-14-05, 02:42 PM ::cracks knuckles::

1.) You keep class levels.
2.) You do not immediately become evil/chaotic for joining the ranks of the living dead. However, you do begin craving for the positive-energy rich blood found in living creatures. In short, you gain a nasty life-or-death addiction. Without positively stoic concentration, it is easy to slip. SS has rolls for it, but it's probably best to RP it out.
Tenzhi
02-14-05, 02:47 PM It's worth noting that living creatures also must feed or die, and that they feast on the flesh of the once-living. Depending on how you go about it, you can live and feed as a vampire and not be evil.
Melpomene
02-14-05, 02:57 PM It's worth noting that living creatures also must feed or die, and that they feast on the flesh of the once-living. Depending on how you go about it, you can live and feed as a vampire and not be evil.

Very true. However (and slipping further into fluff), this is a pervasive, unending, and unrelenting hunger. While it is true that you can be hungry as a living creature, you are unlikely to hunt someone down and eat them to stave it off.

Desperation breeds evil. YMMV, of course.
Ra-Tiel
02-14-05, 03:07 PM Remeber the neat little side effect that as a recently created vampire [spawn] you are under *complete* controll of your master (if he didn't exceed his controlling limits). If he says "slaughter the villages' innocent girls" then you will do it no matter what. I guess that's the reason it says "Alignment: always evil (any)", because the vampire that created you will most likely use you for his own evil ends.

Just my :twocents:
_Ra-Tiel.
spamfiltre
02-14-05, 03:11 PM It also depends on the setting. In Eberron, for instance, none of the fixed alignments hold true. A vampire, red dragon, or bugbear could be lawful good as easily as any evil alignment.

It would be a DM call to decide how much fluff vs. crunch, to play up the evil origina, or let a character's own personality remain in full force, whether or not to have you make WILL saves to avoid feeding on innocents, or allow you to RP it, etc.
Ogre4Hire
02-14-05, 03:13 PM Typically, an undead Spawn (regardless of type) changes alignment to that of the Undead who created it. In the event of the Master's death, however, the Spawn has the option of keeping its current alignment (most likely evil), or reverting to the alignment it had before it became a Spawn.

The information above was taken from the Savage Species book.
Evil Wizard
02-14-05, 04:03 PM I always figured that the process that turns you into a vampire warps the victim's personality into evil. The vampire isn't really the same person he or she used to be, and possibly even likes draining levels and drinking people's blood now. Transforming into a vampire is a magical process, and the alignment change is very likely one of the magical alterations involved.

Or you could just as easily argue that vampires wind up evil as a result of being under constant control by the typically evil master vampire. It could also be likely that you only ever encounter evil vampires, because the good ones seek out a cure or immediately bake themselves in the sun rather than risk killing others because of their hunger. Really, it comes down to whether you buy into the theory that negative energy = evil.
oakleafbard
02-17-05, 02:25 AM This recently happened to a player in one of my campaigns because his fellow adventurers didn't react quickly enough. As GM I decided to let him play his character as he wanted. He decided to keep playing his original alignment, which I believe was neutral good. However, any detect alignment spells used on him reveal him to be evil due to the negative energy infusing his body. It's a variation of the misunderstood monster. Of course NPCs have good reason to misunderstand him since he radiates evil. It gives me great chances to send good guys after him while putting him in the position of debating on whether or not to kill them. In past games he has pushed for killing NPCs based solely on detect alignment spell results. I do love twisting the knife.
Callahan
02-17-05, 03:38 AM I always figured that the process that turns you into a vampire warps the victim's personality into evil. The vampire isn't really the same person he or she used to be, and possibly even likes draining levels and drinking people's blood now. Transforming into a vampire is a magical process, and the alignment change is very likely one of the magical alterations involved.
I make the same ruling. Though I base it on the fact that vampires loose their soul when turned. The soul is imprisoned in the realm of the vampire god and the body of the creature is cursed and forced to walk the earth feeding on the living. So it's not as much a magical effect as a divine curse. But that's just mine campaign.
Rotipher
02-17-05, 10:58 AM I kind of split the difference IMC: victims who become MM "vampire spawn" are so traumatized by the transition that they automatically lose their minds, allowing the ravenous undead 'beast' to take over their body's actions. This is why spawn-grade vampirism means the new undead lacks some of the full vampire's special abilities, as they aren't mentally coherent enough to focus their potential to control animals, etc. Left to their own devices, vampire spawn act more like ghouls or wights than Dracula; indeed, their full-vampire masters exert more effort *stopping* them from attacking anyone they meet (which would be too conspicuous), than compelling them to do so! In short, they're far more like the stupid, squalid vampires of genuine European myth.

If a character is powerful enough to become a full-fledged vampire, OTOH, they retain their own identity and memory (though some go nuts later), and may attempt to avoid turning Evil as well. However, the blood-hunger that plagues them is *VERY* powerful, and the longer they exist, the more their capacity to empathize with living people diminishes. Simply being forced to kill by their masters isn't enough to turn them Evil, any more than a living PC killing someone while under a Dominate Person spell would (though every taste of blood makes their cravings worse), but the erosion of their empathy eventually makes all but a tiny minority decide killing victims for their own needs -- and, ultimately, their own pleasure -- is excusable. The very rare exceptions generally realize their own corruption, and destroy themselves before it's too late.
skywyze
02-17-05, 01:13 PM What separates a Fully Fledged Vampire (TM) from a vampire spawn? Is it enough to kill the sire, or is there more to it? Maybe you have to be turned in a certain way? I'm asking because in our campaign we're up against a whole town of vampires, and I'm wondering if I should volunteeringly fail my saving throw vs vampirism if it should ever become an option. I want to be good though.
Callahan
02-17-05, 02:31 PM What separates a Fully Fledged Vampire (TM) from a vampire spawn? Is it enough to kill the sire, or is there more to it? Maybe you have to be turned in a certain way? I'm asking because in our campaign we're up against a whole town of vampires, and I'm wondering if I should volunteeringly fail my saving throw vs vampirism if it should ever become an option. I want to be good though.
If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction.
So there's not real saving throw, you just become a vampire after a vampire kills you. Energy drain makes you a spawn and constitution drain turns you in to a vampire. The problem is that you become the servent of the vampire that made you. So it's a bad idea to become a vampire.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skywyze 02-14-05, 02:30 PM	It says in the MM that all vampires are evil. But if you're a good person who is transformed into a vampire, do you not retain any of your former self? Do you lose all class levels and start over from scratch? What happens, mechanically, when you're transformed? Any insights welcome.
Melpomene 02-14-05, 02:42 PM	::cracks knuckles:: 1.) You keep class levels. 2.) You do not immediately become evil/chaotic for joining the ranks of the living dead. However, you do begin craving for the positive-energy rich blood found in living creatures. In short, you gain a nasty life-or-death addiction. Without positively stoic concentration, it is easy to slip. SS has rolls for it, but it's probably best to RP it out.
Tenzhi 02-14-05, 02:47 PM	It's worth noting that living creatures also must feed or die, and that they feast on the flesh of the once-living. Depending on how you go about it, you can live and feed as a vampire and not be evil.
Melpomene 02-14-05, 02:57 PM	It's worth noting that living creatures also must feed or die, and that they feast on the flesh of the once-living. Depending on how you go about it, you can live and feed as a vampire and not be evil. Very true. However (and slipping further into fluff), this is a pervasive, unending, and unrelenting hunger. While it is true that you can be hungry as a living creature, you are unlikely to hunt someone down and eat them to stave it off. Desperation breeds evil. YMMV, of course.
Ra-Tiel 02-14-05, 03:07 PM	Remeber the neat little side effect that as a recently created vampire [spawn] you are under complete controll of your master (if he didn't exceed his controlling limits). If he says "slaughter the villages' innocent girls" then you will do it no matter what. I guess that's the reason it says "Alignment: always evil (any)", because the vampire that created you will most likely use you for his own evil ends. Just my :twocents: _Ra-Tiel.
spamfiltre 02-14-05, 03:11 PM	It also depends on the setting. In Eberron, for instance, none of the fixed alignments hold true. A vampire, red dragon, or bugbear could be lawful good as easily as any evil alignment. It would be a DM call to decide how much fluff vs. crunch, to play up the evil origina, or let a character's own personality remain in full force, whether or not to have you make WILL saves to avoid feeding on innocents, or allow you to RP it, etc.
Ogre4Hire 02-14-05, 03:13 PM	Typically, an undead Spawn (regardless of type) changes alignment to that of the Undead who created it. In the event of the Master's death, however, the Spawn has the option of keeping its current alignment (most likely evil), or reverting to the alignment it had before it became a Spawn. The information above was taken from the Savage Species book.
Evil Wizard 02-14-05, 04:03 PM	I always figured that the process that turns you into a vampire warps the victim's personality into evil. The vampire isn't really the same person he or she used to be, and possibly even likes draining levels and drinking people's blood now. Transforming into a vampire is a magical process, and the alignment change is very likely one of the magical alterations involved. Or you could just as easily argue that vampires wind up evil as a result of being under constant control by the typically evil master vampire. It could also be likely that you only ever encounter evil vampires, because the good ones seek out a cure or immediately bake themselves in the sun rather than risk killing others because of their hunger. Really, it comes down to whether you buy into the theory that negative energy = evil.
oakleafbard 02-17-05, 02:25 AM	This recently happened to a player in one of my campaigns because his fellow adventurers didn't react quickly enough. As GM I decided to let him play his character as he wanted. He decided to keep playing his original alignment, which I believe was neutral good. However, any detect alignment spells used on him reveal him to be evil due to the negative energy infusing his body. It's a variation of the misunderstood monster. Of course NPCs have good reason to misunderstand him since he radiates evil. It gives me great chances to send good guys after him while putting him in the position of debating on whether or not to kill them. In past games he has pushed for killing NPCs based solely on detect alignment spell results. I do love twisting the knife.
Callahan 02-17-05, 03:38 AM	I always figured that the process that turns you into a vampire warps the victim's personality into evil. The vampire isn't really the same person he or she used to be, and possibly even likes draining levels and drinking people's blood now. Transforming into a vampire is a magical process, and the alignment change is very likely one of the magical alterations involved. I make the same ruling. Though I base it on the fact that vampires loose their soul when turned. The soul is imprisoned in the realm of the vampire god and the body of the creature is cursed and forced to walk the earth feeding on the living. So it's not as much a magical effect as a divine curse. But that's just mine campaign.
Rotipher 02-17-05, 10:58 AM	I kind of split the difference IMC: victims who become MM "vampire spawn" are so traumatized by the transition that they automatically lose their minds, allowing the ravenous undead 'beast' to take over their body's actions. This is why spawn-grade vampirism means the new undead lacks some of the full vampire's special abilities, as they aren't mentally coherent enough to focus their potential to control animals, etc. Left to their own devices, vampire spawn act more like ghouls or wights than Dracula; indeed, their full-vampire masters exert more effort stopping them from attacking anyone they meet (which would be too conspicuous), than compelling them to do so! In short, they're far more like the stupid, squalid vampires of genuine European myth. If a character is powerful enough to become a full-fledged vampire, OTOH, they retain their own identity and memory (though some go nuts later), and may attempt to avoid turning Evil as well. However, the blood-hunger that plagues them is VERY powerful, and the longer they exist, the more their capacity to empathize with living people diminishes. Simply being forced to kill by their masters isn't enough to turn them Evil, any more than a living PC killing someone while under a Dominate Person spell would (though every taste of blood makes their cravings worse), but the erosion of their empathy eventually makes all but a tiny minority decide killing victims for their own needs -- and, ultimately, their own pleasure -- is excusable. The very rare exceptions generally realize their own corruption, and destroy themselves before it's too late.
skywyze 02-17-05, 01:13 PM	What separates a Fully Fledged Vampire (TM) from a vampire spawn? Is it enough to kill the sire, or is there more to it? Maybe you have to be turned in a certain way? I'm asking because in our campaign we're up against a whole town of vampires, and I'm wondering if I should volunteeringly fail my saving throw vs vampirism if it should ever become an option. I want to be good though.
Callahan 02-17-05, 02:31 PM	What separates a Fully Fledged Vampire (TM) from a vampire spawn? Is it enough to kill the sire, or is there more to it? Maybe you have to be turned in a certain way? I'm asking because in our campaign we're up against a whole town of vampires, and I'm wondering if I should volunteeringly fail my saving throw vs vampirism if it should ever become an option. I want to be good though. If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. So there's not real saving throw, you just become a vampire after a vampire kills you. Energy drain makes you a spawn and constitution drain turns you in to a vampire. The problem is that you become the servent of the vampire that made you. So it's a bad idea to become a vampire.