Don't understand two things... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Don't understand two things... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JudgeDeadd
12-19-06, 02:14 PM I have the Monster Manual IV and I don't really understand two things...
1. The DC for Knowledge checks for monster lore is supposed to be 10 + the monster's HD. However this is untrue for many monster. E.G. The holocaust disciple has 26 HD, but his DC is only 15.
2. Some special attacks have texts like "A creature within this area must succeed on a DC 28 Reflex save (...)The Save DC is Strength-based." What does the "Strength-based" mean?
Morwen
12-19-06, 02:23 PM 2. The "Strength-based" means that is the monster's attribute that the save DC is based on. The reason it is included in the entry is in case the monster's Strength is raised or lowered; that would also raise or lower the Save DC.
JudgeDeadd
12-19-06, 02:33 PM Is the DC affected by the ability modifier, or by the ability value itself?
Richmud
12-19-06, 02:42 PM Is the DC affected by the ability modifier, or by the ability value itself?

Modifier. Also I think the reason for the know DC is that different ones represent different amounts of information
JudgeDeadd
12-19-06, 02:58 PM No, you didn't understand. According e.g. to "Know Your Enemy" articles:
So how do designers determine the Difficulty Class for Knowledge checks about creatures? The following is excerpted from Monster Manual IV:

The description of the Knowledge skill indicates that in general, the baseline DC of checks to identify monsters and remember one bit of useful information about their special powers or vulnerabilities is equal to 10 + the monster's HD. Every 5 points by which the check result exceeds the DC yields another useful piece of information (PH 78).
So e.g. a holocaust disciple has 26 HD. So the DC for knwoledge checks should go like this:
DC 36 - some basic information: what is it, what type is it, any subtypes...
DC 41 - more info
DC 46 - more info
DC 51 - more info
Witch
12-19-06, 03:02 PM Knowledge DCs are often changed, because it's absurd.

You'd know every single detail of the peskiest fly, but having heard of the Tarrasque? Never.
JudgeDeadd
12-19-06, 03:13 PM Well, it's actually true... After all, you're not gonna tell me that even a dumbest warrior couldn't recognize a dragon.
Karak_Nechot
12-20-06, 12:22 AM The DCs for Knowledge skills have been changed to 10 + CR in most cases. This is because higher CR monsters very often have much, much higher HD, sometimes in the 1-to-3 ratio.

One of the few things that MMIV got right is also including some basic Knowledge that anyone can know, like, with a DC 10 Knowledge (dungeoneering) check, you can tell some of the very basic aspects of an aberration, or DC 15 Knowledge (the planes) to know some basics of demons.
Lazzmaniandevil
12-20-06, 08:12 AM According to page 6 of MM IV, DC10+HD is used for determining abilities specifics to the creature, while a DC15 reveals the type, subtype and all applicable traits.
obrysii
12-20-06, 08:55 AM Knowledge DCs are often changed, because it's absurd.

You'd know every single detail of the peskiest fly, but having heard of the Tarrasque? Never.

You can know all about some bizarre abberation, but fail to identify a bear, too.
Slagger the Chuul
12-20-06, 09:51 AM Like many other things, the process is a bit of an art. For many creatures, a DC 15 might reveal the basic traits of its type, but in some circumstances the type of the creature might not be so easily recognized, so you could stick with the usual 10 + HD numbers to identify its basic nature.

For example, you can easily tell that any skeleton is not alive, but for some of the more lifelike undead, you might not even realize that they aren't breathing. Assessment of these things is up to the designer of the creature (for more recent offerings) or the DM (for creatures without a lore section).

Identifying so-called "common" animals is a bit trickier, but you need to keep in mind that this varies by culture, and common information is often the result of personal contact rather than actual study. If you've lived your whole life in the desert, there's a good chance you've never seen a bear, while a barbarian from the frozen north could see bears all the time, but might not have run across a snake because his home is too cold for them. We owe the idea of a number of mythical creatures to someone getting the basics of a living animal completely wrong.
Witch
12-20-06, 10:12 AM Like many other things, the process is a bit of an art. For many creatures, a DC 15 might reveal the basic traits of its type, but in some circumstances the type of the creature might not be so easily recognized, so you could stick with the usual 10 + HD numbers to identify its basic nature.

For example, you can easily tell that any skeleton is not alive, but for some of the more lifelike undead, you might not even realize that they aren't breathing. Assessment of these things is up to the designer of the creature (for more recent offerings) or the DM (for creatures without a lore section).

Identifying so-called "common" animals is a bit trickier, but you need to keep in mind that this varies by culture, and common information is often the result of personal contact rather than actual study. If you've lived your whole life in the desert, there's a good chance you've never seen a bear, while a barbarian from the frozen north could see bears all the time, but might not have run across a snake because his home is too cold for them. We owe the idea of a number of mythical creatures to someone getting the basics of a living animal completely wrong.
Now, imagine two areas.

You live in the forest.
There's bears. You have personal contacts with them.

Over on the other side of the world, theres:
- the Incredible Deadly Huge Snow Creature of Despair - 40 (!) Hit Dice.
- the Snowfly Flyus Flyus Snowus - 1/6 HD

You know nothing about the Incredibly Deadly Huge Snow Creature of Despair. But you know that the Snowfly replicates by dropping its egg-pods into a flower, which is completely covered by snow in the winter season; after the winter, the eggpods hatch to reveal newly born snowflies. Snowflies reproduce asexually. They feed on little bacteriae, and have four pairs of wings. It is highly resistant to the cold.

Thát is the problem with Knowledge ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JudgeDeadd 12-19-06, 02:14 PM	I have the Monster Manual IV and I don't really understand two things... 1. The DC for Knowledge checks for monster lore is supposed to be 10 + the monster's HD. However this is untrue for many monster. E.G. The holocaust disciple has 26 HD, but his DC is only 15. 2. Some special attacks have texts like "A creature within this area must succeed on a DC 28 Reflex save (...)The Save DC is Strength-based." What does the "Strength-based" mean?
Morwen 12-19-06, 02:23 PM	2. The "Strength-based" means that is the monster's attribute that the save DC is based on. The reason it is included in the entry is in case the monster's Strength is raised or lowered; that would also raise or lower the Save DC.
JudgeDeadd 12-19-06, 02:33 PM	Is the DC affected by the ability modifier, or by the ability value itself?
Richmud 12-19-06, 02:42 PM	Is the DC affected by the ability modifier, or by the ability value itself? Modifier. Also I think the reason for the know DC is that different ones represent different amounts of information
JudgeDeadd 12-19-06, 02:58 PM	No, you didn't understand. According e.g. to "Know Your Enemy" articles: So how do designers determine the Difficulty Class for Knowledge checks about creatures? The following is excerpted from Monster Manual IV: The description of the Knowledge skill indicates that in general, the baseline DC of checks to identify monsters and remember one bit of useful information about their special powers or vulnerabilities is equal to 10 + the monster's HD. Every 5 points by which the check result exceeds the DC yields another useful piece of information (PH 78). So e.g. a holocaust disciple has 26 HD. So the DC for knwoledge checks should go like this: DC 36 - some basic information: what is it, what type is it, any subtypes... DC 41 - more info DC 46 - more info DC 51 - more info
Witch 12-19-06, 03:02 PM	Knowledge DCs are often changed, because it's absurd. You'd know every single detail of the peskiest fly, but having heard of the Tarrasque? Never.
JudgeDeadd 12-19-06, 03:13 PM	Well, it's actually true... After all, you're not gonna tell me that even a dumbest warrior couldn't recognize a dragon.
Karak_Nechot 12-20-06, 12:22 AM	The DCs for Knowledge skills have been changed to 10 + CR in most cases. This is because higher CR monsters very often have much, much higher HD, sometimes in the 1-to-3 ratio. One of the few things that MMIV got right is also including some basic Knowledge that anyone can know, like, with a DC 10 Knowledge (dungeoneering) check, you can tell some of the very basic aspects of an aberration, or DC 15 Knowledge (the planes) to know some basics of demons.
Lazzmaniandevil 12-20-06, 08:12 AM	According to page 6 of MM IV, DC10+HD is used for determining abilities specifics to the creature, while a DC15 reveals the type, subtype and all applicable traits.
obrysii 12-20-06, 08:55 AM	Knowledge DCs are often changed, because it's absurd. You'd know every single detail of the peskiest fly, but having heard of the Tarrasque? Never. You can know all about some bizarre abberation, but fail to identify a bear, too.
Slagger the Chuul 12-20-06, 09:51 AM	Like many other things, the process is a bit of an art. For many creatures, a DC 15 might reveal the basic traits of its type, but in some circumstances the type of the creature might not be so easily recognized, so you could stick with the usual 10 + HD numbers to identify its basic nature. For example, you can easily tell that any skeleton is not alive, but for some of the more lifelike undead, you might not even realize that they aren't breathing. Assessment of these things is up to the designer of the creature (for more recent offerings) or the DM (for creatures without a lore section). Identifying so-called "common" animals is a bit trickier, but you need to keep in mind that this varies by culture, and common information is often the result of personal contact rather than actual study. If you've lived your whole life in the desert, there's a good chance you've never seen a bear, while a barbarian from the frozen north could see bears all the time, but might not have run across a snake because his home is too cold for them. We owe the idea of a number of mythical creatures to someone getting the basics of a living animal completely wrong.
Witch 12-20-06, 10:12 AM	Like many other things, the process is a bit of an art. For many creatures, a DC 15 might reveal the basic traits of its type, but in some circumstances the type of the creature might not be so easily recognized, so you could stick with the usual 10 + HD numbers to identify its basic nature. For example, you can easily tell that any skeleton is not alive, but for some of the more lifelike undead, you might not even realize that they aren't breathing. Assessment of these things is up to the designer of the creature (for more recent offerings) or the DM (for creatures without a lore section). Identifying so-called "common" animals is a bit trickier, but you need to keep in mind that this varies by culture, and common information is often the result of personal contact rather than actual study. If you've lived your whole life in the desert, there's a good chance you've never seen a bear, while a barbarian from the frozen north could see bears all the time, but might not have run across a snake because his home is too cold for them. We owe the idea of a number of mythical creatures to someone getting the basics of a living animal completely wrong. Now, imagine two areas. You live in the forest. There's bears. You have personal contacts with them. Over on the other side of the world, theres: - the Incredible Deadly Huge Snow Creature of Despair - 40 (!) Hit Dice. - the Snowfly Flyus Flyus Snowus - 1/6 HD You know nothing about the Incredibly Deadly Huge Snow Creature of Despair. But you know that the Snowfly replicates by dropping its egg-pods into a flower, which is completely covered by snow in the winter season; after the winter, the eggpods hatch to reveal newly born snowflies. Snowflies reproduce asexually. They feed on little bacteriae, and have four pairs of wings. It is highly resistant to the cold. Thát is the problem with Knowledge ;)