Doppelgangers and Stats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Doppelgangers and Stats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Beer-Ogre
06-13-05, 12:46 PM I am running a 3.5 campaign for 3 other players and have decided to have the NPC which recently joined their party turn out to be a traitourous doppelganger.

After reading up on the doppelgangers in the MM, I'm a little confused over something. When they morph into someone else, do they get that person's physical attributes? Logically I would assume so. After all if they look like them they should have their charisma. If they morph into a fat inkeeper, they should have his low Dex. What if they turn into a muscled fighter, do they get his strength bonus?

I could see their Int., Wis., and Con. remaining the same as they are only taking on the physical likeness of the person they are imitating and not their actually mind or health.

No where can I find anything written about this. It doesn't seem to make sense that they would keep their original stats when they morph. After all, if a sleek alien looking doppelganger turned into a 400 pound wench, I imagine he'd be pretty clumsy on his feet, no?

Anyone know what the deal with this is?
The_Fan
06-13-05, 12:58 PM They keep their physical stats. The reason being is that they don't actually take on that person's physical structure, they just take on an external appearance. Plus, it's magic.

Also, look at it this way: If the doppleganger is in the form of a 400 lb drunkard, how freaked out would your PCs be if suddenly he started doing moves that someone his size should by no means be capable of? Or if the doppleganger is a petite elven maiden, but suddenly manifests that 16 strength?
Beer-Ogre
06-13-05, 02:04 PM Also, look at it this way: If the doppleganger is in the form of a 400 lb drunkard, how freaked out would your PCs be if suddenly he started doing moves that someone his size should by no means be capable of? Or if the doppleganger is a petite elven maiden, but suddenly manifests that 16 strength?

Ohhhhh. I like that. Thanks for making me see it in a new light. One 400 lbs wench with Dex 18 coming right up! :D
ieattrollsforbreakfast
06-13-05, 03:11 PM After all if they look like them they should have their charisma.

As The_Fan said, there is no stat change. However, I feel I should comment on the above quote. Charisma has very little at all to do with appearance. Charisma is force of personality, and is only liked to attractiveness as a secondary trait (ie, not all high charisma characters are attractive, and not all low charisma characters are ugly). Consitution, however, is linked to the physical body, it represents metabolisms and ability to shrug off poisons/diseases. If a creature uses a polymorph or shapechange spell (which does alter stats), the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) change, but the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha), do not.
Beer-Ogre
06-13-05, 04:24 PM Yes, yes, I'm well aware that Charisma is primarily a "personality stat" and that looks are a far second. However, as DM, I prefer to allow my players to roleplay "persuasiveness" and "Leadership" and "authority" rather than apply a number to it. It makes for much better roleplay if my players are actually RPing a scenario where they are attempting to convince someone of something rather than reverting to "well, I have a Charisma of 18, so he likes me" or rolling a diplomacy check. That's not to say that the numbers or diplomacy checks never ever matter in such circumstances, but to us Charisma has become more of a 50%-50% with both personality and good looks. After all, in the real world a good looking woman will have most average people see her way before an ugly woman would, even if their personalities were identical.

Now, I have another question about the dopplegangers... what about their equipment? Is it safe to assume that clothing, armour, weapons, and such morph along with them? Or are they "Incredible Hulking" their way out of their clothes when they go from elf maiden to Ulag, the Barbarian Pitfighter?
bgt
06-13-05, 08:57 PM The equipment stays if it fits, otherwise, it melds into the new form. I belive their ability pretty much follows the Alter Self spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beer-Ogre 06-13-05, 12:46 PM	I am running a 3.5 campaign for 3 other players and have decided to have the NPC which recently joined their party turn out to be a traitourous doppelganger. After reading up on the doppelgangers in the MM, I'm a little confused over something. When they morph into someone else, do they get that person's physical attributes? Logically I would assume so. After all if they look like them they should have their charisma. If they morph into a fat inkeeper, they should have his low Dex. What if they turn into a muscled fighter, do they get his strength bonus? I could see their Int., Wis., and Con. remaining the same as they are only taking on the physical likeness of the person they are imitating and not their actually mind or health. No where can I find anything written about this. It doesn't seem to make sense that they would keep their original stats when they morph. After all, if a sleek alien looking doppelganger turned into a 400 pound wench, I imagine he'd be pretty clumsy on his feet, no? Anyone know what the deal with this is?
The_Fan 06-13-05, 12:58 PM	They keep their physical stats. The reason being is that they don't actually take on that person's physical structure, they just take on an external appearance. Plus, it's magic. Also, look at it this way: If the doppleganger is in the form of a 400 lb drunkard, how freaked out would your PCs be if suddenly he started doing moves that someone his size should by no means be capable of? Or if the doppleganger is a petite elven maiden, but suddenly manifests that 16 strength?
Beer-Ogre 06-13-05, 02:04 PM	Also, look at it this way: If the doppleganger is in the form of a 400 lb drunkard, how freaked out would your PCs be if suddenly he started doing moves that someone his size should by no means be capable of? Or if the doppleganger is a petite elven maiden, but suddenly manifests that 16 strength? Ohhhhh. I like that. Thanks for making me see it in a new light. One 400 lbs wench with Dex 18 coming right up! :D
ieattrollsforbreakfast 06-13-05, 03:11 PM	After all if they look like them they should have their charisma. As The_Fan said, there is no stat change. However, I feel I should comment on the above quote. Charisma has very little at all to do with appearance. Charisma is force of personality, and is only liked to attractiveness as a secondary trait (ie, not all high charisma characters are attractive, and not all low charisma characters are ugly). Consitution, however, is linked to the physical body, it represents metabolisms and ability to shrug off poisons/diseases. If a creature uses a polymorph or shapechange spell (which does alter stats), the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) change, but the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha), do not.
Beer-Ogre 06-13-05, 04:24 PM	Yes, yes, I'm well aware that Charisma is primarily a "personality stat" and that looks are a far second. However, as DM, I prefer to allow my players to roleplay "persuasiveness" and "Leadership" and "authority" rather than apply a number to it. It makes for much better roleplay if my players are actually RPing a scenario where they are attempting to convince someone of something rather than reverting to "well, I have a Charisma of 18, so he likes me" or rolling a diplomacy check. That's not to say that the numbers or diplomacy checks never ever matter in such circumstances, but to us Charisma has become more of a 50%-50% with both personality and good looks. After all, in the real world a good looking woman will have most average people see her way before an ugly woman would, even if their personalities were identical. Now, I have another question about the dopplegangers... what about their equipment? Is it safe to assume that clothing, armour, weapons, and such morph along with them? Or are they "Incredible Hulking" their way out of their clothes when they go from elf maiden to Ulag, the Barbarian Pitfighter?
bgt 06-13-05, 08:57 PM	The equipment stays if it fits, otherwise, it melds into the new form. I belive their ability pretty much follows the Alter Self spell.