DR and Templates [Archive] - Wizards Community

DR and Templates [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PerennialRook
08-29-07, 03:50 AM SPOILER ALERT: Players in my game, read no farther (for your own enjoyment)! This post contains information that will give away major plot developments which have not yet been revealed, to include major surprise encounters.

I'm making a Vampire Nymph (a powerful 9 CR), and ran into the issue of two DR entries. A Nymph, as a fey, has a DR of 10 that is bypassed only by cold iron. The vampire template adds another DR of 10 that is bypasses by a combination of silver and magic. In the alchemical silver entry in the SRD is states that alchenical silver cannot be applied to cold iron. So since it requires both cold iron and silver from a single attack (read impossible) to bypass both DR 10's, then does the damage reduction become DR 10/-? I could retain both entries, but it seems to be that the DR 10/- applies here.

As a side note, did I read somewhere that using an elite array for a monster/npc increases the CR by 1? If so, my creation will be a CR 10.

I'll also be using the skeleton template to make a burned out undead treant and dryad pair, and I'll be re-purposing the pan pipes of a mourning, corrupted satyr to rebuke/command undead and replicate the desecrate spell.

As you can see, I'm running a "corruption of the fey"/undead conspiracy game.

-Preston
The Morninglord
08-29-07, 04:04 AM DR does not stack that way (IIRC). The vampire nymph will simply have DR 10/cold iron and a DR 10/silver and magic. Depending on which weapons are used against it, one or the other may kick in.

Still, the result is pretty much what you said. If the PCs use cold Iron against it, they are not using silver, so the silver and magic DR will kick in (and vice versa). If the DR had been 5/cold iron and 10/silver and magic, you would have seen a difference.

Edit: As a side note, did I read somewhere that using an elite array for a monster/npc increases the CR by 1? If so, my creation will be a CR 10.

"Somewhere" is under "Advancing monsters by HD" in monster manual (or SRD).
runestar
08-29-07, 04:39 AM It is technically not impossible for a weapon to overcome both silver and cold iron dr simultaneously, since gloves of weaponry arcane (complete arcane) lets any weapon your wield be treated as magic silver for purposes of overcoming dr.

This should stack with a cold iron weapon.

As a side note, did I read somewhere that using an elite array for a monster/npc increases the CR by 1? If so, my creation will be a CR 10.

You might want to throw on a class lv or 2 instead, since that automatically grants the elite stat array for free.:)
PerennialRook
08-29-07, 09:01 AM Thank you for your help. If you ever need an elite array vampire nymph...

MIRA CR 9
Vampire Nymph
Chaotic Medium Undead (augmented fey)
Init +11; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +24, Spot+24

AC 34, touch 27, flat-footed 26; dodge
(+7 Dex, +6 natural, +11 deflection)
hp 45 (6d12); fast healing 5
Fort +13, Ref +25, Will +21; unearthly grace
DR 10/cold iron, 10/silver and magic; Immune undead traits; Resist cold 10, electricity 10, turn resistance; Weakness garlic and holy symbols (at bay, 5 ft.), sunlight, wooden stake

Speed 30 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee slam +7 (1d6+6)
Melee/Ranged masterwork dagger +11 (1d4+4 /19-20)
Special Attacks blinding beauty (DC 24), blood drain, energy drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate (DC 24), stunning glance (DC 24)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th)
1/day—dimension door
Druid Spells Prepared (CL 7th)
4th—freedom of movement, rusting grasp
3rd—contagion (DC 18), poison (DC 18), protection from energy
2nd—bull’s strength, cat’s grace, fog cloud, resist energy
1st—entangle (DC 16), jump, longstrider, magic fang, obscuring mist, pass without trace
0—detect magic (2), flare (3, DC 15), resistance

Before Combat If Mira expects company, then she will cast longstrider, freedom of movement, resist energy (acid), protection from energy (fire, 84 points), poison, jump, cat’s grace, bull’s strength, and resistance from a dark shadow (Hide +24) from whence she will spring.
Surprise/1st Round Mira waits for the group to pass her, with a readied action to dominate anyone who sees her. If she goes unnoticed, which is very likely, then she will spring upon (charge, up to 40 ft.) either an obvious arcanist (to prevent energy damage) or the holiest looking member of the party (to prevent turning or brandishing of holy symbol), and grapple/poison him, while simultaneously activating her blinding beauty ability. Then follows up at the start of the first round with an attempted pin and blood drain, then releases her captive and retreat 40 ft. away.
During Combat Mira’s first objective, once combat begins, is to dominate the best fighter to provide a distraction to the party. With a tank to defend her, she can call for reinforcements with her children of the night ability, and then concentrate on taking party support out of the fight with her stunning glance ability. Any remaining combatants who get to close will soon lose their weapons via rusting grasp, or succumb to the debilitating effects of contagion. Once reinforcements arrive, if things are going well, she can get lost in the mayhem by switching to an alternate form and sneak around the battlefield.
Morale Unless she gauges that a foe is able to destroy her, or she is too far from her coffin to make it there in gaseous form, Mira will fight to the death. Otherwise she will dimension door away if she drops below 1/3 hit points (15).

Str 18, Dex 24, Con –, Int 18, Wis 21, Cha 32
Base Atk +3; Grp +7
Feats AlertnessB, Combat Casting, Combat ReflexesB, Dodge, Improved InitiativeB, Lightning ReflexesB, Weapon Finesse; B bonus feat
Skills Bluff +19, Concentration +20, Diplomacy +13, Escape Artist +16, Handle Animal +20, Heal +14, Hide +24, Listen +24, Move Silently +24, Ride +9, Search +12, Sense Motive +22, Spot +24, Swim +12, Use Rope +7 (+9 with bindings)
Languages common, sylvan
SQ alternate form, gaseous form, spider climb, unearthly grace, wild empathy
Other Gear masterwork dagger, cloak of charisma (+4)
PerennialRook
08-29-07, 09:04 AM Does she seem overpowered? For a CR 9 that is. If you're wondering what it would cost to play her, her total ECL is 21:eek:. That's right, a 6HD epic character! :D

Thanks again,

-Preston
runestar
08-29-07, 10:09 PM Cr has nothing to do with ECL. So don't get too bothered by the discrepancy.
Sildatorak
08-29-07, 11:10 PM Just so you are aware, you are applying the vamp. template to something that normally can't have it. Personally, I think it is a pretty cool idea, and I'm not one to knock someone for breaking the rules knowingly for good effect.
G_Mancer
08-29-07, 11:57 PM Cr has nothing to do with ECL. So don't get too bothered by the discrepancy.

a monster's CR is 1/2 racial hitdie + 1/2 LA + class levels. obviously it does.

if you think this is a CR 10 monster think about this. you (the DM) are playing this creature to it's fullest in combat. you're simulating a PC who is playing the NPC in an epic campaign. if you were to play this char in a campaign, and you went up against this group of NPCs (your PCs) would you be able to tell right away if you could win or not?

seems to my you've calculated it's every option in combat to achieve the highest chance of it's survivability. this means your gonna kill your party.

Vampire template cant be applied to fey. if you were to create the same template with the addition of the ability to be applied to fey, you should increase the LA, which in effect also increases the CR & ECL.
runestar
08-30-07, 06:00 AM a monster's CR is 1/2 racial hitdie + 1/2 LA + class levels. obviously it does.

That is utter nonsense and you know it.

LA is not included at all when calculating cr. Nor does racial HD have any intrinsic correlation with cr.

Heck, they are measuring 2 completely different concepts. How can you even claim they are interchangeable? :confused:
Sildatorak
08-30-07, 07:57 AM if you think this is a CR 10 monster think about this. you (the DM) are playing this creature to it's fullest in combat. you're simulating a PC who is playing the NPC in an epic campaign.
Unless you plan on combining this monster with 3ish other monters and fighting 4 times a day, you are definitely not simulating a PC.

Part of the reason for the high LA compared to the CR is the reusability of the abilities or their greater usefulness against monsters and NPCs rather than PCs. Stunning glance? In a combat with PCs it doesn't really matter if the ability is 3/day or unlimited. If you are running it as a PC it sure does, though. Domination at will? That is easy for a PC party to thwart with some level 1 spells or one level 3 spell. Monsters generally don't have access to protection from evil, so against them it means nothing. DR 10/- (effectively)? PCs will be irritated by this, but their damage output is significant enough that it generally will be dealt with by spell or power attack. Monsters often aren't so lucky.

The dynamics between running an NPC monster and a PC are so different that LA and CR aren't even measuring the same thing. CR measures the power of the monster in one fight against superior foes, LA measures the monsters staying power over a day with several fights against inferior foes.
snakeman830
08-30-07, 10:41 AM Shadowstriking weapons (ToM) can overcome that DR. That's one way.
PerennialRook
08-30-07, 02:16 PM I am aware that the vampire template cannot normally be applied to fey. I attribute this (in my campaign) to the purity of fey and their ethereal/magical nature. Thus if some vampire were able to corrupt the fey, or become powerful enough to bypass this invulnerability (both of which are true in my campaign), then the situation presents itself where the template can be applied to a very powerful fey.

If I were playing the vampiress nymph as an epic character, then she would also have epic gear (975,000gp worth), not a masterwork dagger and a cloak of charisma (+4), a treasure valued at 16,302gp or something like triple the normal treasure value of a 9th or 10th level encounter.

As for tactics? I expect the party to be just as prepared for her as she is for them. Will a character or two die? It's a possibility, but I don't anticipate a TPK of the 6 character party. How would you run the encounter?

I appreciate those that pointed out the circumstances where the DR could be bypassed, so I will be leaving it as two entries. Thankfully she only has 45 hp to get through.

I expect some spells that don't allow saves, some high damage tanks, divine healing, and/or turning (even with turn resistance she only effectively has 10 HD) to take her down, which is why her tactics are geared towards taking out those threats.

Thank you again for all for your input,
-Preston
Meep326
08-30-07, 02:54 PM There is a Monstrus Vampire template in Ghostwalk, that can be applied (if I remember correctly) to anything the normal Vampire templete could not be applied to, with the same abilities. I would rule that thusly, anything can becore a Vampire.
TheClance
08-31-07, 10:12 AM Considering that you have applied the vampire template to a nymph, which you know to be illegal by RAW, I would make the DR cold iron or silver/magic, instead of cold iron and silver/magic. In other words, the creature retains the metallic vulnerabilities of its precident natures, rather than combining them.

Of course if you are allowing a wide range of splat books, then with 45hp is a real problem, and I would go with the effective Dr 10/-. The real question is whether or not the party is forwarned. Forwarned, Protection from Evil 10' radius solves the dominateproblems. Without it, impossibly high DCs combined with hit and run tactics will probably lead to a TPK. A DC21 Blinding Beauty is nonetheless going to take out MANY PCs.

The corrupted satyr sounds like a DM nerfing the possibilty of turning, which IMHO should be a vulnerablity of vampires. Of course a paladin with maxed out charisma show by able to destory or cripple a vampire of the correct CR with a maxed out lay on hands, but that should be a reward for a rather specialised build. I would rather use the improved turning feat.

From my experience, an encounter with with such strong attacks but low hp means that whichever PC(s) get attacked first die, but the rest of the party manage to overcome the encounter. This isn't particularly fair for the PC(s) chosen for first attention, as the attack(s) are often so devestating that no reasonable defence is possible, and they end losing a level when raised.
PerennialRook
08-31-07, 12:38 PM I like your idea about using both vulnerabilities separately. I'm going to have to think about that one for awhile, and since the characters are only second level right now, I have awhile to think about it.

The Satyr I changed a little bit from it's original conception. It can no longer desecrate, and merely rebukes as a cleric of a level equal to his monster HD, allowing him to bolster the undead as a 5th level cleric. I found that desecrate was going to be too powerful an ability, and that bolster would meet my needs.

The characters will be going into the encounter fully rested, stocked, and expecting undead (of another sort). The combat may never happen, dependent upon the preceding social interaction with the unstable fey.

If combat ensues (and I expect it will), it will include a huge skeleton (burnt tree) with a 15 ft. reach, which the satyr will stay within, and a skeletal (burnt) dryad. The satyr has two levels of monk and the Spring Attack feat (it seemed a natural progression of his feats). Stopping the satyr (whether they kill him or stop him from playing) will de-animate the skeletons (this should be obvious, since its pipes raised the skeletons).

The party will have six members of second level, including a monk, warmage, druid, ranger, rogue, and cleric. This should be sufficient to take out the satyr. My only concern is how many skeletons to include in the encounter. My thoughts are to include 1.5 per pc, for a total of 9 skeletons, and an overall total of 12 monsters. The tree won't be moving, nor will the satyr (for the most part), so good tactics should be able to take care of the skeletons. I may just have the dryad skeleton dance with the music unless attacked (which will provoke the wrath of the satyr).

This all sounds good, until you realize that, according to the DMG, the skeletons alone are a CR 3 encounter, add to that a CR 2 (dryad), 3 (tree), and 5 (satyr), I should slaughter them.

The dryad isn't fighting unless provoked, the tree can't move (is easily avoided), and the satyr has to play to maintain the skeletons.

Am i just asking to kill my PC's here?

-Preston
Meep326
09-01-07, 02:17 AM Considering that you have applied the vampire template to a nymph, which you know to be illegal by RAW...
Again, no it's not, the Monstrus Vampire Template can be applied to anything that the normal one can't.

...I would make the DR cold iron or silver/magic, instead of cold iron and silver/magic. In other words, the creature retains the metallic vulnerabilities of its precident natures, rather than combining them.
It would be DR x/Cold Iron and DR x/Silver and Magic, two types of DR, so that if one is negated, there's still the other.

...The corrupted satyr sounds like a DM nerfing the possibilty of turning, which IMHO should be a vulnerablity of vampires. Of course a paladin with maxed out charisma show by able to destory or cripple a vampire of the correct CR with a maxed out lay on hands, but that should be a reward for a rather specialised build. I would rather use the improved turning feat.
That is a really nice idea, goes right along with my DM making all paladins be the Lightbringer Variant from Ravenloft, to make them specialized in killing undead rather than just the vague 'evil'.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PerennialRook 08-29-07, 03:50 AM	SPOILER ALERT: Players in my game, read no farther (for your own enjoyment)! This post contains information that will give away major plot developments which have not yet been revealed, to include major surprise encounters. I'm making a Vampire Nymph (a powerful 9 CR), and ran into the issue of two DR entries. A Nymph, as a fey, has a DR of 10 that is bypassed only by cold iron. The vampire template adds another DR of 10 that is bypasses by a combination of silver and magic. In the alchemical silver entry in the SRD is states that alchenical silver cannot be applied to cold iron. So since it requires both cold iron and silver from a single attack (read impossible) to bypass both DR 10's, then does the damage reduction become DR 10/-? I could retain both entries, but it seems to be that the DR 10/- applies here. As a side note, did I read somewhere that using an elite array for a monster/npc increases the CR by 1? If so, my creation will be a CR 10. I'll also be using the skeleton template to make a burned out undead treant and dryad pair, and I'll be re-purposing the pan pipes of a mourning, corrupted satyr to rebuke/command undead and replicate the desecrate spell. As you can see, I'm running a "corruption of the fey"/undead conspiracy game. -Preston
The Morninglord 08-29-07, 04:04 AM	DR does not stack that way (IIRC). The vampire nymph will simply have DR 10/cold iron and a DR 10/silver and magic. Depending on which weapons are used against it, one or the other may kick in. Still, the result is pretty much what you said. If the PCs use cold Iron against it, they are not using silver, so the silver and magic DR will kick in (and vice versa). If the DR had been 5/cold iron and 10/silver and magic, you would have seen a difference. Edit: As a side note, did I read somewhere that using an elite array for a monster/npc increases the CR by 1? If so, my creation will be a CR 10. "Somewhere" is under "Advancing monsters by HD" in monster manual (or SRD).
runestar 08-29-07, 04:39 AM	It is technically not impossible for a weapon to overcome both silver and cold iron dr simultaneously, since gloves of weaponry arcane (complete arcane) lets any weapon your wield be treated as magic silver for purposes of overcoming dr. This should stack with a cold iron weapon. As a side note, did I read somewhere that using an elite array for a monster/npc increases the CR by 1? If so, my creation will be a CR 10. You might want to throw on a class lv or 2 instead, since that automatically grants the elite stat array for free.:)
PerennialRook 08-29-07, 09:01 AM	Thank you for your help. If you ever need an elite array vampire nymph... MIRA CR 9 Vampire Nymph Chaotic Medium Undead (augmented fey) Init +11; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +24, Spot+24 AC 34, touch 27, flat-footed 26; dodge (+7 Dex, +6 natural, +11 deflection) hp 45 (6d12); fast healing 5 Fort +13, Ref +25, Will +21; unearthly grace DR 10/cold iron, 10/silver and magic; Immune undead traits; Resist cold 10, electricity 10, turn resistance; Weakness garlic and holy symbols (at bay, 5 ft.), sunlight, wooden stake Speed 30 ft., swim 20 ft. Melee slam +7 (1d6+6) Melee/Ranged masterwork dagger +11 (1d4+4 /19-20) Special Attacks blinding beauty (DC 24), blood drain, energy drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate (DC 24), stunning glance (DC 24) Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th) 1/day—dimension door Druid Spells Prepared (CL 7th) 4th—freedom of movement, rusting grasp 3rd—contagion (DC 18), poison (DC 18), protection from energy 2nd—bull’s strength, cat’s grace, fog cloud, resist energy 1st—entangle (DC 16), jump, longstrider, magic fang, obscuring mist, pass without trace 0—detect magic (2), flare (3, DC 15), resistance Before Combat If Mira expects company, then she will cast longstrider, freedom of movement, resist energy (acid), protection from energy (fire, 84 points), poison, jump, cat’s grace, bull’s strength, and resistance from a dark shadow (Hide +24) from whence she will spring. Surprise/1st Round Mira waits for the group to pass her, with a readied action to dominate anyone who sees her. If she goes unnoticed, which is very likely, then she will spring upon (charge, up to 40 ft.) either an obvious arcanist (to prevent energy damage) or the holiest looking member of the party (to prevent turning or brandishing of holy symbol), and grapple/poison him, while simultaneously activating her blinding beauty ability. Then follows up at the start of the first round with an attempted pin and blood drain, then releases her captive and retreat 40 ft. away. During Combat Mira’s first objective, once combat begins, is to dominate the best fighter to provide a distraction to the party. With a tank to defend her, she can call for reinforcements with her children of the night ability, and then concentrate on taking party support out of the fight with her stunning glance ability. Any remaining combatants who get to close will soon lose their weapons via rusting grasp, or succumb to the debilitating effects of contagion. Once reinforcements arrive, if things are going well, she can get lost in the mayhem by switching to an alternate form and sneak around the battlefield. Morale Unless she gauges that a foe is able to destroy her, or she is too far from her coffin to make it there in gaseous form, Mira will fight to the death. Otherwise she will dimension door away if she drops below 1/3 hit points (15). Str 18, Dex 24, Con –, Int 18, Wis 21, Cha 32 Base Atk +3; Grp +7 Feats AlertnessB, Combat Casting, Combat ReflexesB, Dodge, Improved InitiativeB, Lightning ReflexesB, Weapon Finesse; B bonus feat Skills Bluff +19, Concentration +20, Diplomacy +13, Escape Artist +16, Handle Animal +20, Heal +14, Hide +24, Listen +24, Move Silently +24, Ride +9, Search +12, Sense Motive +22, Spot +24, Swim +12, Use Rope +7 (+9 with bindings) Languages common, sylvan SQ alternate form, gaseous form, spider climb, unearthly grace, wild empathy Other Gear masterwork dagger, cloak of charisma (+4)
PerennialRook 08-29-07, 09:04 AM	Does she seem overpowered? For a CR 9 that is. If you're wondering what it would cost to play her, her total ECL is 21:eek:. That's right, a 6HD epic character! :D Thanks again, -Preston
runestar 08-29-07, 10:09 PM	Cr has nothing to do with ECL. So don't get too bothered by the discrepancy.
Sildatorak 08-29-07, 11:10 PM	Just so you are aware, you are applying the vamp. template to something that normally can't have it. Personally, I think it is a pretty cool idea, and I'm not one to knock someone for breaking the rules knowingly for good effect.
G_Mancer 08-29-07, 11:57 PM	Cr has nothing to do with ECL. So don't get too bothered by the discrepancy. a monster's CR is 1/2 racial hitdie + 1/2 LA + class levels. obviously it does. if you think this is a CR 10 monster think about this. you (the DM) are playing this creature to it's fullest in combat. you're simulating a PC who is playing the NPC in an epic campaign. if you were to play this char in a campaign, and you went up against this group of NPCs (your PCs) would you be able to tell right away if you could win or not? seems to my you've calculated it's every option in combat to achieve the highest chance of it's survivability. this means your gonna kill your party. Vampire template cant be applied to fey. if you were to create the same template with the addition of the ability to be applied to fey, you should increase the LA, which in effect also increases the CR & ECL.
runestar 08-30-07, 06:00 AM	a monster's CR is 1/2 racial hitdie + 1/2 LA + class levels. obviously it does. That is utter nonsense and you know it. LA is not included at all when calculating cr. Nor does racial HD have any intrinsic correlation with cr. Heck, they are measuring 2 completely different concepts. How can you even claim they are interchangeable? :confused:
Sildatorak 08-30-07, 07:57 AM	if you think this is a CR 10 monster think about this. you (the DM) are playing this creature to it's fullest in combat. you're simulating a PC who is playing the NPC in an epic campaign. Unless you plan on combining this monster with 3ish other monters and fighting 4 times a day, you are definitely not simulating a PC. Part of the reason for the high LA compared to the CR is the reusability of the abilities or their greater usefulness against monsters and NPCs rather than PCs. Stunning glance? In a combat with PCs it doesn't really matter if the ability is 3/day or unlimited. If you are running it as a PC it sure does, though. Domination at will? That is easy for a PC party to thwart with some level 1 spells or one level 3 spell. Monsters generally don't have access to protection from evil, so against them it means nothing. DR 10/- (effectively)? PCs will be irritated by this, but their damage output is significant enough that it generally will be dealt with by spell or power attack. Monsters often aren't so lucky. The dynamics between running an NPC monster and a PC are so different that LA and CR aren't even measuring the same thing. CR measures the power of the monster in one fight against superior foes, LA measures the monsters staying power over a day with several fights against inferior foes.
snakeman830 08-30-07, 10:41 AM	Shadowstriking weapons (ToM) can overcome that DR. That's one way.
PerennialRook 08-30-07, 02:16 PM	I am aware that the vampire template cannot normally be applied to fey. I attribute this (in my campaign) to the purity of fey and their ethereal/magical nature. Thus if some vampire were able to corrupt the fey, or become powerful enough to bypass this invulnerability (both of which are true in my campaign), then the situation presents itself where the template can be applied to a very powerful fey. If I were playing the vampiress nymph as an epic character, then she would also have epic gear (975,000gp worth), not a masterwork dagger and a cloak of charisma (+4), a treasure valued at 16,302gp or something like triple the normal treasure value of a 9th or 10th level encounter. As for tactics? I expect the party to be just as prepared for her as she is for them. Will a character or two die? It's a possibility, but I don't anticipate a TPK of the 6 character party. How would you run the encounter? I appreciate those that pointed out the circumstances where the DR could be bypassed, so I will be leaving it as two entries. Thankfully she only has 45 hp to get through. I expect some spells that don't allow saves, some high damage tanks, divine healing, and/or turning (even with turn resistance she only effectively has 10 HD) to take her down, which is why her tactics are geared towards taking out those threats. Thank you again for all for your input, -Preston
Meep326 08-30-07, 02:54 PM	There is a Monstrus Vampire template in Ghostwalk, that can be applied (if I remember correctly) to anything the normal Vampire templete could not be applied to, with the same abilities. I would rule that thusly, anything can becore a Vampire.
TheClance 08-31-07, 10:12 AM	Considering that you have applied the vampire template to a nymph, which you know to be illegal by RAW, I would make the DR cold iron or silver/magic, instead of cold iron and silver/magic. In other words, the creature retains the metallic vulnerabilities of its precident natures, rather than combining them. Of course if you are allowing a wide range of splat books, then with 45hp is a real problem, and I would go with the effective Dr 10/-. The real question is whether or not the party is forwarned. Forwarned, Protection from Evil 10' radius solves the dominateproblems. Without it, impossibly high DCs combined with hit and run tactics will probably lead to a TPK. A DC21 Blinding Beauty is nonetheless going to take out MANY PCs. The corrupted satyr sounds like a DM nerfing the possibilty of turning, which IMHO should be a vulnerablity of vampires. Of course a paladin with maxed out charisma show by able to destory or cripple a vampire of the correct CR with a maxed out lay on hands, but that should be a reward for a rather specialised build. I would rather use the improved turning feat. From my experience, an encounter with with such strong attacks but low hp means that whichever PC(s) get attacked first die, but the rest of the party manage to overcome the encounter. This isn't particularly fair for the PC(s) chosen for first attention, as the attack(s) are often so devestating that no reasonable defence is possible, and they end losing a level when raised.
PerennialRook 08-31-07, 12:38 PM	I like your idea about using both vulnerabilities separately. I'm going to have to think about that one for awhile, and since the characters are only second level right now, I have awhile to think about it. The Satyr I changed a little bit from it's original conception. It can no longer desecrate, and merely rebukes as a cleric of a level equal to his monster HD, allowing him to bolster the undead as a 5th level cleric. I found that desecrate was going to be too powerful an ability, and that bolster would meet my needs. The characters will be going into the encounter fully rested, stocked, and expecting undead (of another sort). The combat may never happen, dependent upon the preceding social interaction with the unstable fey. If combat ensues (and I expect it will), it will include a huge skeleton (burnt tree) with a 15 ft. reach, which the satyr will stay within, and a skeletal (burnt) dryad. The satyr has two levels of monk and the Spring Attack feat (it seemed a natural progression of his feats). Stopping the satyr (whether they kill him or stop him from playing) will de-animate the skeletons (this should be obvious, since its pipes raised the skeletons). The party will have six members of second level, including a monk, warmage, druid, ranger, rogue, and cleric. This should be sufficient to take out the satyr. My only concern is how many skeletons to include in the encounter. My thoughts are to include 1.5 per pc, for a total of 9 skeletons, and an overall total of 12 monsters. The tree won't be moving, nor will the satyr (for the most part), so good tactics should be able to take care of the skeletons. I may just have the dryad skeleton dance with the music unless attacked (which will provoke the wrath of the satyr). This all sounds good, until you realize that, according to the DMG, the skeletons alone are a CR 3 encounter, add to that a CR 2 (dryad), 3 (tree), and 5 (satyr), I should slaughter them. The dryad isn't fighting unless provoked, the tree can't move (is easily avoided), and the satyr has to play to maintain the skeletons. Am i just asking to kill my PC's here? -Preston
Meep326 09-01-07, 02:17 AM	Considering that you have applied the vampire template to a nymph, which you know to be illegal by RAW... Again, no it's not, the Monstrus Vampire Template can be applied to anything that the normal one can't. ...I would make the DR cold iron or silver/magic, instead of cold iron and silver/magic. In other words, the creature retains the metallic vulnerabilities of its precident natures, rather than combining them. It would be DR x/Cold Iron and DR x/Silver and Magic, two types of DR, so that if one is negated, there's still the other. ...The corrupted satyr sounds like a DM nerfing the possibilty of turning, which IMHO should be a vulnerablity of vampires. Of course a paladin with maxed out charisma show by able to destory or cripple a vampire of the correct CR with a maxed out lay on hands, but that should be a reward for a rather specialised build. I would rather use the improved turning feat. That is a really nice idea, goes right along with my DM making all paladins be the Lightbringer Variant from Ravenloft, to make them specialized in killing undead rather than just the vague 'evil'.