Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GAMER_ZIM 09-17-03, 10:21 AM	Hello friends... There was a time, not too long ago in fact... when a +5 weapon meant something. It was not just a symbol of status and achievement, but rather it was the spirit of victory and conquest made manifest. A true king of the battlefield, the +5 was... an iconic item that some adventurers quested for for their entire careers. Good times, to be sure... I ask myself now what a +5 is and what it means, and it is simply this: A +5 is no more than a speedbump on the path to a +6. Sad but true, the "classic" +5 is that last VW Bug rolling off the assembly line, an Orc in a 10'x10' room that nobody enters, a fond memory of years gone by. Why did they kill the poor plus two? Did not its blade strike just as true? Where goest thou, oh fair plus three? Hath no one any use for thee? What happened to the proud plus four? Like the raven, nevermore? Sadder still, the great plus fives, little more than kitchen knives. �gMagic or Epic is all�h they say. Tis the new order of the day. Used to be, a fella with a +1 sword knew his place in the world. He knew what he could fight and what he couldn�ft. Why, it�fs a slap in the face to dragons everywhere that they can be injured by the puniest of magic swords. It�fs a damn shame, I tell ya. Why get a +5 to hit and damage when you could be doing an extra four d6�fs of various types of energy damage. Why indeed? To summarize: I hate the DR x/magic system, it makes me angry and disappointed. Now leave me to my grief, for tonight I shall mourn my character�fs arsenal.
Mr. VanderMeer 09-17-03, 10:26 AM	Ah, very funny. You poor creature, missing your 'precious' are you. :)
ruleslawyer 09-17-03, 12:03 PM	1) Weapon enhancement bonuses add to attack AND damage. Technically, with Power Attack, a +1 weapon enhancement bonus is a +2 to damage, or a +3 if it's two-handed. 2) Weapon enhancement bonuses protect against sundering. 3) Weapon enhancement bonuses are not subject to energy resistance. 4) Weapon enhancement bonuses are multiplied on a critical hit. 5) Weapon enhancement bonuses increase the chance of succeeding at non-damaging combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, etc.). There's 5 reasons to love your +5 weapon.
sandskimmer 09-17-03, 01:39 PM	I love your poem, but ruleslawer has it right. Your enhancement bonuses don't count toward DR anymore, but so what! All of the above still apply. I'd rather have a +5 weapon than a +1 weapon any day.
Mr.Waesel 09-17-03, 02:38 PM	Dragons' Dr isn't meant to be useful, It's just flavor. They've got more than enough defense for thier CR already.
Frozen Yakman 09-17-03, 03:53 PM	+5 to what, I ask I have no attack I have no damage the world understand fire it understands cold and if your a religios man, good and evil too anstract statistics have no flavor magic is enough
Boondoggle 09-17-03, 06:59 PM	:weep: :weep: :weep:
youspoonybard 09-17-03, 10:20 PM	My Foes' Blades Are Drawn Flame Frost Sliced Into Pieces Pity As They Fall.
DarkSoldier 09-17-03, 10:46 PM	I like the idea of giving true dragons one point of epic DR per age category, to reflect the fact that they're the monsters (as in "Dungeons &"). However, I prefer the hierarchical DR system for magical DR only, because of the fact that I can now use a +1 longsword to injure an iron golem, when a weapon of such minor enchantment shouldn't even be able to scratch the mighty automaton's paint job.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-03, 11:08 PM	Originally posted by youspoonybard My Foes' Blades Are Drawn Flame Frost Sliced Into Pieces Pity As They Fall. Nice Haiku.
Sproik 09-18-03, 12:16 AM	Originally posted by ruleslawyer 1) Weapon enhancement bonuses add to attack AND damage. Technically, with Power Attack, a +1 weapon enhancement bonus is a +2 to damage, or a +3 if it's two-handed. 2) Weapon enhancement bonuses protect against sundering. 3) Weapon enhancement bonuses are not subject to energy resistance. 4) Weapon enhancement bonuses are multiplied on a critical hit. 5) Weapon enhancement bonuses increase the chance of succeeding at non-damaging combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, etc.). There's 5 reasons to love your +5 weapon. I don't see how this makes a +5 weapon better than a +1 weapon that deals an additional 1d6 points of cold, flame and lightning damage and a further 2d6+2 against evil (for example). You are trading -4 to hit and damage for +3d6 damage - or if the enemy is evil, -2 to hit and damage for +5d6 damage. I have to agree that a plain enhancement bonus seems to pale against the various special abilities weapons now hold with impunity. Before someone jumps in and suggests that 'you cannot have +1d6 fire and +1d6 cold' or something, this isn't really the point. A +4 sword with the flame ability is much better than a +5 sword. Maybe the special abilities should be more expensive... much more expensive.
youspoonybard 09-18-03, 12:28 AM	I just thought up a Monk2/Ftr6 build that has a +22 to sunder attempts. This is only with a *masterwork* weapon. If I put a single +1 enhancement bonus on that sucker, you've lost your expensive Market Price +5 weapon.
Sproik 09-18-03, 12:33 AM	Originally posted by youspoonybard I just thought up a Monk2/Ftr6 build that has a +22 to sunder attempts. This is only with a *masterwork* weapon. If I put a single +1 enhancement bonus on that sucker, you've lost your expensive Market Price +5 weapon. You would need another +5 weapon: "Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus also adds 1 to the weapon�s or shield�s hardness and hit points."
youspoonybard 09-18-03, 12:38 AM	If you have a +1 Flame Frost Shock whatever weapon, it's a +1 weapon. I'd just need a +1 weapon.
Sproik 09-18-03, 12:44 AM	Ah yes, conceded. So it would be vulnerable to sunder. Of course, even a +5 weapon would be vulnerable to being disarmed by a customised disarming character (or one with a potion of true strike). There is no infallible method of arming your character. But I do think the various little special abilities are underrated in the core book - +1d6 damage should be worth more than a +1.
youspoonybard 09-18-03, 12:45 AM	Heh. I'd hardly call him "built for sundering"...my character already has Improved Sunder, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple and Improved Trip : P. All of the bonuses that you can get will help against someone like that.
Sproik 09-18-03, 12:57 AM	Hmm. You say +22 bonus to sunder? That sounds rather unreasonable. Give your 8th level character should have a base attack of 7, and perhaps 4 more for the Improved Sunder feat, and another 1 for MW weapon... Are you suggesting you have a +10 ability modifier? Or +9 with a weapon focus, etc?
youspoonybard 09-18-03, 01:01 AM	Almost there. +4 two-handed weapon, +5 str (base 16 with +2 ability increases, +2 item), +1 WF. I could use a ranseur/guisarm/whatever weapon it is that gives a +2 to disarm, but...nah.
Sproik 09-18-03, 01:13 AM	Ah, two-handed weapon *slaps forehead*. I see it all now!
Frozen Yakman 09-18-03, 01:56 AM	The apparent "weakness" of the vanilla enhancement bonuses is not a case of the other enhancement bonuses being too strong, it is a just the long standing problem in the d20 system of the AC system being broken at mid to high levels. It is much to easy to boost your AB very high even without enhancement bonuses, ACs can't compete. If the AC system worked, then enhancement bonuses would be much more useful.
Boondoggle 09-18-03, 04:45 AM	I love how people ***** and complain about the new DR system making +'s 'worthless' when, in the old system, there were like 5 monsters that had a DR higher than /+3. A +3 weapon could easily defeat damn near any DR and thus made the DR system almost useless. Dragons' DR was never a problem for adventurers. A red dragon gained DR 5/+1 at CR 12. Every 12th (or 11th, 10th...) level adventurer has a f***ing +1 weapon. It gained DR 15/+2 at CR 20. Finnally, it gets DR 20/+3 at CR 23. A +5 weapon was just as 'worthless' in 3.0 as it is in 3.5. Hell, the 'sure striking' enhancement in Sword & Fist truly made +5 weapons no better at penetrating DR than they are now. No offence meant to any one person in particular complaining about the system, but to you all collectively, pull your head out of your ass and try using it instead of automatically hating everything new.
Mr.Waesel 09-18-03, 11:05 AM	Originally posted by ruleslawyer 1) Weapon enhancement bonuses add to attack AND damage. Technically, with Power Attack, a +1 weapon enhancement bonus is a +2 to damage, or a +3 if it's two-handed. 2) Weapon enhancement bonuses protect against sundering. 3) Weapon enhancement bonuses are not subject to energy resistance. 4) Weapon enhancement bonuses are multiplied on a critical hit. 5) Weapon enhancement bonuses increase the chance of succeeding at non-damaging combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, etc.). There's 5 reasons to love your +5 weapon. Also, a +5 sword has better saves, on average.
ruleslawyer 09-18-03, 02:20 PM	Originally posted by Sproik I don't see how this makes a +5 weapon better than a +1 weapon that deals an additional 1d6 points of cold, flame and lightning damage and a further 2d6+2 against evil (for example). You are trading -4 to hit and damage for +3d6 damage - or if the enemy is evil, -2 to hit and damage for +5d6 damage. So we're talking +4/+4 attack/damage vs. +3d6 elemental damage. Again, keep in mind that the +4/+4 is actually +8 to damage with Power Attack, or +12 if the weapon is two-handed. Compare to the +10.5 average damage from elemental properties. This means that the vanilla +5 weapon deals only mildly lower average damage, or better average damage, in addition to being more difficult to sunder, having better saves, being multiplied on a critical hit, increasing the chance of non-damaging maneuvers, and not being subject in the slightest to elemental resistance. Holy is a +2 ability, not +1. So actually, you're trading +4/+4 attack/damage (or +8/+12 damage, in simpler terms) for +2d6 elemental damage, or +4d6 vs. evil opponents.
Mordriana the Blood 09-18-03, 03:26 PM	The poems on this thread rock. LOL.
youspoonybard 09-18-03, 03:44 PM	Thanks. In all honesty, this thread has pretty much shaped my current character idea into a warrior who is totally self-sufficient and lives, and dies, by the blade. I'm going to come up with a bunch of Haiku's and when I defeat a worthy opponent, deliver them to honor their memory. Besides, I will only use blades crafted by my own hands. So whether or not to Sunder is a lot easier to answer...
incarnadine 09-18-03, 03:57 PM	With the old system I couldn't imagine sending my party against an iron golem without having at least two of the group's melee attackers with weapons to beat it's DR. So in the end it's really the same as having characters with magic weapons of any kind that can beat the golem's DR except now I can give them flavored weapons like flaming, keen etc, and not worry about it being useless against a high percentage of monsters.