DR/Cold Irony [Archive] - Wizards Community

DR/Cold Irony [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Treetrip Danglefoot
03-01-05, 03:47 PM I've noticed something I think is ironic about DR.

Good creatures have DR/Evil
Evil creatures have DR/Good

(for the most part)

Why do creatures have a DR that mainly protects them against creatures of their own alignment?

It seems to make a little more sense to me that DR would protect against one's general enemies.

A creature with DR/Evil is less effected by a Holy sword than they are by an Unholy Sword. But how often are they going to be taking hits from holy swords?

Thats not evolution baby. Shouldn't it really be the other way around? We resist the things that harms us more than we resist the things that don't?
Tsuul
03-01-05, 04:05 PM It is evolution. Celestials generaly spend most of their time NOT hanging out with demons and devils, on planes where demons and devils generaly don't wander. Their DR protects them from the natural inhabitants of their lands.
Scarlet Knight
03-01-05, 04:16 PM The mechanic is meant to let you to use good-aligned powers to defeat evil creatures. Demons are supposed to be vulnerable to Holy Swords, and Angels are not, so just the Evil creatures get DR/Good. Evil gets destroyed by Good, Good gets destroyed by Evil.

Evolution doesn't apply to demons and other fantastic creatures. Sorry Charles Darwin.
Treetrip Danglefoot
03-01-05, 04:21 PM Its not actually a question of mechanics balance. I know, its so that bad things penetrate good things and visa versa.

Their DR protects them from the natural inhabitants of their lands.

I wasn't aware that the angels of Celestia had frequent combat with themselves. I thought that was a general trait of good aligned outsiders, they don't beat each other up. :P
11d7
03-01-05, 04:26 PM "Evolution doesn't apply to demons and other fantastic creatures. Sorry Charles Darwin."

I'm sorry but some people (like myself) dont leave things up to 'magic and fantasy' in our games so your point is moot as far as every DM i personaly know is concerned.
Scarlet Knight
03-01-05, 04:33 PM I'm sorry but some people (like myself) dont leave things up to 'magic and fantasy' in our games so your point is moot as far as every DM i personaly know is concerned.OK, my point may be moot where you're concerned, but do you even have a point? It's hard for me to even figure out what you are trying to say. Learn to express yourself in a way that people can actually understand before you start to argue with me.
lukelightning
03-01-05, 04:38 PM I wasn't aware that the angels of Celestia had frequent combat with themselves. I thought that was a general trait of good aligned outsiders, they don't beat each other up. :P

Exactly. (Dons Fantasy Philosophy Hat).

Verily, it is the nature of Good to help, and the nature of Evil to harm. Beings of the Good type, such as Angels and other Celestials, are infused with Good energy. When a celestial strikes against another celestial, their inherent Good energies do not seek to cause injury or pain. However, the cruel nature of Evil will happily inflict pain and injury upon Good.

Conversely, a being of Good, upon striking a fiend, inflicts harm, as the power of Good weakens the Evil. Fiends, however, being creatures infused with Evil, are much resistant to the corrupting effect of their fellows.
Sarig the Genie
03-01-05, 06:28 PM I'm not too good at explaining, so I suppose only Planescapers will get this.

The beings of the outer planes are beings of belief, if enough primes belive that celestials can hurt fiends, then then it is so.

Alternatively, the evolution path.

For ages celestials and fiends have been warring, and they build resistances...and offensive capabilities against their foes. Hence a random celestial might have excellent defensive capabilities (the damage reduction, not the AC for those not following;)) which only the race that has fought them for ages have the magical power to overcome.
sooperspook
03-01-05, 07:49 PM Actually even mixing science into fantasy i dont think outsiders such as celestials or fiends have ever 'evolved' as such. didn't they originally spawn spontaneously from the stuff of their plane? fully formed? if thats how their race came into existance , i dont think evolution will even get a look in. They dont pass on genes to a next generation, most of the time they dont breed at all. They just create more of themselves using petitioners. (those worm things for fiends, dont know what celestials use).

another way to look at it is the opposites thing. Good and Evil are total opposites. They cant exist simultaneously in pure form. kind of like fire/heat and water/cold. each destroys the other unless the other is strogner. at which point the other destroys them. thats why they are vulnerable to each other. its not just evil that celestials can be hurt by. its EVIL! an evil human warlord , no matter how vile, isnt going to hurt an angel with his fists because the warlord isnt EVIL, he's just evil aligned. its not a fundamental part of his make up. a demon however , is EVILness distilled and purified and made into corporeal form. likewise , an Unholy sword is instilled with Pure corruption, Pure Vice and foulness.

hope that makes sense.
Talanall
03-01-05, 08:22 PM There's at least one way to explain away the irony. I think the best one is via recourse to Planescape conventions.

As explained in both 2nd edition and in the 3.X Manual of the Planes and Planar Handbook, many of the inhabitants of the outer planes are the embodiments of alignment. Celestials DO fight one another on occasion -- usually lawful archons versus chaotic eladrin. The conflict is eternal, not least of all because, owing to their innate resistances to magical and physical attacks, neither side is very good at inflicting mortal injury on the other.

Similarly, the Blood War between demon and devil has been going on for ages upon ages, and is never expected to end. The fighting keeps these two major groups of fiends busy enough to keep them from overrunning the rest of the multiverse, and so long as nobody manages to tip the balance by providing the demons or devils with the means to slay one another quickly and reliably in a pitched battle, it probably always will.

For example, a quasit (demon) and an imp (devil) have DR 5/cold iron or good, or DR 5/good or silver. They share immunity to poison (and have poison attacks). A quasit enjoys 3 attacks per round, dealing 1d3-1 (2 claws) and 1d4-1 (bite). An imp has only one attack, dealing 1d4 (tail sting).

They cannot readily kill each other, but they hate each other enough to try anyway. If they are left alone long enough, the imp will almost certainly win, because it can turn into a boar (1d8+3 damage), and after a few centuries of steady fighting, it will probably roll enough consecutive hits dealing at least 8 points of damage to allow it to slay the quasit.

The same general state of affairs persists throughout the ranks of demons and devils, and it effectively means that even though they usually try to kill each other on sight, they can almost never manage to do so.

I don't know if this reduces or increases the level of irony involved in damage reduction in 3.5. But it does, at least, give a rationale for why it is the way it is.
Treetrip Danglefoot
03-01-05, 11:26 PM Wow...

Okay, um. This was an attempt at a joke. Humor. One of those things where you stop and go . o O (Heh, that is kind of funny)

Not one of those things where you go

'm sorry but some people (like myself) dont leave things up to 'magic and fantasy' in our games so your point is moot as far as every DM i personaly know is concerned.

Lets step back, take a little laugh, and walk on. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder
03-02-05, 12:52 AM I'll point out that among the celestials, Angels/Aasimon do fight each other if it's at the behest of the deity that they serve. When pantheons or gods have disagreements, millions of Aasimon die in the service of their respective patrons.

Among celestials that serve an alignment/plane such as Archons(LG), Guardinals(NG), or Eladrin (CG) for the vast percent of the time they don't fight each other. They may passionately disagree with each other over the true face of good on the Law/Chaos axis, but being good aligned they won't butcher each other over the point like the three main fiend races will.

Among the fiends of course it's eternal genocide. At least among the Yugoloths, it's all about purity and removing perceived weakness from among their own kind. So you could say that they evolve in some ways. Mezzoloths are eventually promoted into the form of the next highest ranking type of 'loth, and then to the next highest form, etc till they become Ultroloths. Each step requires them to realize something, or fully learn some specific aspect of neutral evil. When this is noticed by their superiors, the fiend must be sponsored for promotion by a fiend of rank the 1st fiend wishes to rise to. The fiend is then tested by a group of fiends two ranks above it. If it passes it undergoes a ritual of such horrific brutality and suffering that Balors are said to feel disturbed by it. If the fiend fails the tests, both it and its patron are executed to prevent the 'weakness' from remaining part of the 'loth race.

Among Tanar'ri and Baatezu it's similar, though the heirarchy is more complex and less direct than 'loths, and its effectively nonexistant for Tanar'ri. Tanar'ri simply advance to another type if they have the belief in their own power and can convince those around them of it, and it happens naturally, almost like an insect molting into another form.
Braids
03-02-05, 02:10 AM I like to think of the D&D planes/universe thingy as needing balance between the alignments. I consider that to be a good reason why fiends would be fighting each other rather than overwhelming the universe.

And if Good outsiders are "made" up of good and evil outsiders are "made" up of evil, then you could think of DR as an added measure that is set in place to prevent one side from becoming too strong.

I really hope that made sense...cuz I am too tired to tell.
Ogre4Hire
03-02-05, 01:38 PM Or, as I said on another thread a long time ago, if celestials were vulnerable to Good damage, Salamanderss would live in constant danger of being burned to death.:D
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
03-03-05, 12:43 AM Don't think of celestials as having DR versus good, think of them as being resistant to all damage, because they're cool like that, but as embodiments of good, they are damaged by items consecrated to evil. Keep in mind that to have a weapon classified as evil, it doesn't just have to be wielded by an evil person, it needs to be blessed by evil magics. Thus it causes an adverse reaction in an otherwise impervious good creature.

Same with demons. Supercool against mundane weapons and each other, but butter against a holy sword.
HomebrewedMonster
03-03-05, 04:20 AM "Evolution doesn't apply to demons and other fantastic creatures. Sorry Charles Darwin."

I'm sorry but some people (like myself) dont leave things up to 'magic and fantasy' in our games so your point is moot as far as every DM i personaly know is concerned.

Please enlighten us. Since your "real" knowledge of evolution of angels, demons, devils, and various fiction outsiders exceeds my own. I would like to know your "rational" explanation for their damage reduction, which of course has a rational law of physics behind it.
DarkSoldier
03-03-05, 06:30 AM Celestials DO fight one another on occasion -- usually lawful archons versus chaotic eladrin. The conflict is eternal, not least of all because, owing to their innate resistances to magical and physical attacks, neither side is very good at inflicting mortal injury on the other.I would expect that since both combatants are made of the essence of Good, they wouldn't come to physical blows when they know they have bigger enemies like the fiends.

The extent of celestial conflict, IMO, is philosophical.
Etiquette_Gnome
03-03-05, 10:06 AM I think a comparison to the elements is more appropriate. Do you rail against fire elementals having immunity to fire and weakness to cold? Assuming you don't, consider what the DR means for celestial/fiends. On the whole, celestials/fiends are creatures steeped in the essence of good/evil, as well as being resistant to damage because of their power. However, against their opposing element, they have a bit of a weakness, simply because their bodies are very susceptible to their aligned opposite, in a way a fire elemental reacts to cold damage.

So the fact celestials haven't properly developed a resistance against evil isn't a factor against evolution, for they are no longer celestials were they to remove what makes them vulnerable to evil (essence of good). Besides, they technically have developed a proof against evil, their own nature and abilities are geared to combat evil; possibly described with the 'good offense' style of defense.
Purple Yin
03-03-05, 11:15 AM i think Sarig the Genie is the closest here. if the abilities of celestials and infernals/abyssals evolve over time, and they are in constand conflict with each other, there will be mystical arms race (like a predator/prey arms race, or a sexual arms race in reality) involving new magic defenses and innate weapons.

say a celestial evolves (through introspection, prayor, random mutation, whatever) DR, there will be a massive selective pressure on an opposer to equally evolve an innate ability to circumvent the defence. dont think of it as a celestial with DR/evil, but with DR, and evil with a 'bypass DR of Good'.

look at it thiss way- the beings of good havent finished evolving, not have the beings of evil. the current stats are a snapshot of their present abilities, defenses, weapons. they may totally different in a few millenia.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Treetrip Danglefoot 03-01-05, 03:47 PM	I've noticed something I think is ironic about DR. Good creatures have DR/Evil Evil creatures have DR/Good (for the most part) Why do creatures have a DR that mainly protects them against creatures of their own alignment? It seems to make a little more sense to me that DR would protect against one's general enemies. A creature with DR/Evil is less effected by a Holy sword than they are by an Unholy Sword. But how often are they going to be taking hits from holy swords? Thats not evolution baby. Shouldn't it really be the other way around? We resist the things that harms us more than we resist the things that don't?
Tsuul 03-01-05, 04:05 PM	It is evolution. Celestials generaly spend most of their time NOT hanging out with demons and devils, on planes where demons and devils generaly don't wander. Their DR protects them from the natural inhabitants of their lands.
Scarlet Knight 03-01-05, 04:16 PM	The mechanic is meant to let you to use good-aligned powers to defeat evil creatures. Demons are supposed to be vulnerable to Holy Swords, and Angels are not, so just the Evil creatures get DR/Good. Evil gets destroyed by Good, Good gets destroyed by Evil. Evolution doesn't apply to demons and other fantastic creatures. Sorry Charles Darwin.
Treetrip Danglefoot 03-01-05, 04:21 PM	Its not actually a question of mechanics balance. I know, its so that bad things penetrate good things and visa versa. Their DR protects them from the natural inhabitants of their lands. I wasn't aware that the angels of Celestia had frequent combat with themselves. I thought that was a general trait of good aligned outsiders, they don't beat each other up. :P
11d7 03-01-05, 04:26 PM	"Evolution doesn't apply to demons and other fantastic creatures. Sorry Charles Darwin." I'm sorry but some people (like myself) dont leave things up to 'magic and fantasy' in our games so your point is moot as far as every DM i personaly know is concerned.
Scarlet Knight 03-01-05, 04:33 PM	I'm sorry but some people (like myself) dont leave things up to 'magic and fantasy' in our games so your point is moot as far as every DM i personaly know is concerned.OK, my point may be moot where you're concerned, but do you even have a point? It's hard for me to even figure out what you are trying to say. Learn to express yourself in a way that people can actually understand before you start to argue with me.
lukelightning 03-01-05, 04:38 PM	I wasn't aware that the angels of Celestia had frequent combat with themselves. I thought that was a general trait of good aligned outsiders, they don't beat each other up. :P Exactly. (Dons Fantasy Philosophy Hat). Verily, it is the nature of Good to help, and the nature of Evil to harm. Beings of the Good type, such as Angels and other Celestials, are infused with Good energy. When a celestial strikes against another celestial, their inherent Good energies do not seek to cause injury or pain. However, the cruel nature of Evil will happily inflict pain and injury upon Good. Conversely, a being of Good, upon striking a fiend, inflicts harm, as the power of Good weakens the Evil. Fiends, however, being creatures infused with Evil, are much resistant to the corrupting effect of their fellows.
Sarig the Genie 03-01-05, 06:28 PM	I'm not too good at explaining, so I suppose only Planescapers will get this. The beings of the outer planes are beings of belief, if enough primes belive that celestials can hurt fiends, then then it is so. Alternatively, the evolution path. For ages celestials and fiends have been warring, and they build resistances...and offensive capabilities against their foes. Hence a random celestial might have excellent defensive capabilities (the damage reduction, not the AC for those not following;)) which only the race that has fought them for ages have the magical power to overcome.
sooperspook 03-01-05, 07:49 PM	Actually even mixing science into fantasy i dont think outsiders such as celestials or fiends have ever 'evolved' as such. didn't they originally spawn spontaneously from the stuff of their plane? fully formed? if thats how their race came into existance , i dont think evolution will even get a look in. They dont pass on genes to a next generation, most of the time they dont breed at all. They just create more of themselves using petitioners. (those worm things for fiends, dont know what celestials use). another way to look at it is the opposites thing. Good and Evil are total opposites. They cant exist simultaneously in pure form. kind of like fire/heat and water/cold. each destroys the other unless the other is strogner. at which point the other destroys them. thats why they are vulnerable to each other. its not just evil that celestials can be hurt by. its EVIL! an evil human warlord , no matter how vile, isnt going to hurt an angel with his fists because the warlord isnt EVIL, he's just evil aligned. its not a fundamental part of his make up. a demon however , is EVILness distilled and purified and made into corporeal form. likewise , an Unholy sword is instilled with Pure corruption, Pure Vice and foulness. hope that makes sense.
Talanall 03-01-05, 08:22 PM	There's at least one way to explain away the irony. I think the best one is via recourse to Planescape conventions. As explained in both 2nd edition and in the 3.X Manual of the Planes and Planar Handbook, many of the inhabitants of the outer planes are the embodiments of alignment. Celestials DO fight one another on occasion -- usually lawful archons versus chaotic eladrin. The conflict is eternal, not least of all because, owing to their innate resistances to magical and physical attacks, neither side is very good at inflicting mortal injury on the other. Similarly, the Blood War between demon and devil has been going on for ages upon ages, and is never expected to end. The fighting keeps these two major groups of fiends busy enough to keep them from overrunning the rest of the multiverse, and so long as nobody manages to tip the balance by providing the demons or devils with the means to slay one another quickly and reliably in a pitched battle, it probably always will. For example, a quasit (demon) and an imp (devil) have DR 5/cold iron or good, or DR 5/good or silver. They share immunity to poison (and have poison attacks). A quasit enjoys 3 attacks per round, dealing 1d3-1 (2 claws) and 1d4-1 (bite). An imp has only one attack, dealing 1d4 (tail sting). They cannot readily kill each other, but they hate each other enough to try anyway. If they are left alone long enough, the imp will almost certainly win, because it can turn into a boar (1d8+3 damage), and after a few centuries of steady fighting, it will probably roll enough consecutive hits dealing at least 8 points of damage to allow it to slay the quasit. The same general state of affairs persists throughout the ranks of demons and devils, and it effectively means that even though they usually try to kill each other on sight, they can almost never manage to do so. I don't know if this reduces or increases the level of irony involved in damage reduction in 3.5. But it does, at least, give a rationale for why it is the way it is.
Treetrip Danglefoot 03-01-05, 11:26 PM	Wow... Okay, um. This was an attempt at a joke. Humor. One of those things where you stop and go . o O (Heh, that is kind of funny) Not one of those things where you go 'm sorry but some people (like myself) dont leave things up to 'magic and fantasy' in our games so your point is moot as far as every DM i personaly know is concerned. Lets step back, take a little laugh, and walk on. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 03-02-05, 12:52 AM	I'll point out that among the celestials, Angels/Aasimon do fight each other if it's at the behest of the deity that they serve. When pantheons or gods have disagreements, millions of Aasimon die in the service of their respective patrons. Among celestials that serve an alignment/plane such as Archons(LG), Guardinals(NG), or Eladrin (CG) for the vast percent of the time they don't fight each other. They may passionately disagree with each other over the true face of good on the Law/Chaos axis, but being good aligned they won't butcher each other over the point like the three main fiend races will. Among the fiends of course it's eternal genocide. At least among the Yugoloths, it's all about purity and removing perceived weakness from among their own kind. So you could say that they evolve in some ways. Mezzoloths are eventually promoted into the form of the next highest ranking type of 'loth, and then to the next highest form, etc till they become Ultroloths. Each step requires them to realize something, or fully learn some specific aspect of neutral evil. When this is noticed by their superiors, the fiend must be sponsored for promotion by a fiend of rank the 1st fiend wishes to rise to. The fiend is then tested by a group of fiends two ranks above it. If it passes it undergoes a ritual of such horrific brutality and suffering that Balors are said to feel disturbed by it. If the fiend fails the tests, both it and its patron are executed to prevent the 'weakness' from remaining part of the 'loth race. Among Tanar'ri and Baatezu it's similar, though the heirarchy is more complex and less direct than 'loths, and its effectively nonexistant for Tanar'ri. Tanar'ri simply advance to another type if they have the belief in their own power and can convince those around them of it, and it happens naturally, almost like an insect molting into another form.
Braids 03-02-05, 02:10 AM	I like to think of the D&D planes/universe thingy as needing balance between the alignments. I consider that to be a good reason why fiends would be fighting each other rather than overwhelming the universe. And if Good outsiders are "made" up of good and evil outsiders are "made" up of evil, then you could think of DR as an added measure that is set in place to prevent one side from becoming too strong. I really hope that made sense...cuz I am too tired to tell.
Ogre4Hire 03-02-05, 01:38 PM	Or, as I said on another thread a long time ago, if celestials were vulnerable to Good damage, Salamanderss would live in constant danger of being burned to death.:D
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 03-03-05, 12:43 AM	Don't think of celestials as having DR versus good, think of them as being resistant to all damage, because they're cool like that, but as embodiments of good, they are damaged by items consecrated to evil. Keep in mind that to have a weapon classified as evil, it doesn't just have to be wielded by an evil person, it needs to be blessed by evil magics. Thus it causes an adverse reaction in an otherwise impervious good creature. Same with demons. Supercool against mundane weapons and each other, but butter against a holy sword.
HomebrewedMonster 03-03-05, 04:20 AM	"Evolution doesn't apply to demons and other fantastic creatures. Sorry Charles Darwin." I'm sorry but some people (like myself) dont leave things up to 'magic and fantasy' in our games so your point is moot as far as every DM i personaly know is concerned. Please enlighten us. Since your "real" knowledge of evolution of angels, demons, devils, and various fiction outsiders exceeds my own. I would like to know your "rational" explanation for their damage reduction, which of course has a rational law of physics behind it.
DarkSoldier 03-03-05, 06:30 AM	Celestials DO fight one another on occasion -- usually lawful archons versus chaotic eladrin. The conflict is eternal, not least of all because, owing to their innate resistances to magical and physical attacks, neither side is very good at inflicting mortal injury on the other.I would expect that since both combatants are made of the essence of Good, they wouldn't come to physical blows when they know they have bigger enemies like the fiends. The extent of celestial conflict, IMO, is philosophical.
Etiquette_Gnome 03-03-05, 10:06 AM	I think a comparison to the elements is more appropriate. Do you rail against fire elementals having immunity to fire and weakness to cold? Assuming you don't, consider what the DR means for celestial/fiends. On the whole, celestials/fiends are creatures steeped in the essence of good/evil, as well as being resistant to damage because of their power. However, against their opposing element, they have a bit of a weakness, simply because their bodies are very susceptible to their aligned opposite, in a way a fire elemental reacts to cold damage. So the fact celestials haven't properly developed a resistance against evil isn't a factor against evolution, for they are no longer celestials were they to remove what makes them vulnerable to evil (essence of good). Besides, they technically have developed a proof against evil, their own nature and abilities are geared to combat evil; possibly described with the 'good offense' style of defense.
Purple Yin 03-03-05, 11:15 AM	i think Sarig the Genie is the closest here. if the abilities of celestials and infernals/abyssals evolve over time, and they are in constand conflict with each other, there will be mystical arms race (like a predator/prey arms race, or a sexual arms race in reality) involving new magic defenses and innate weapons. say a celestial evolves (through introspection, prayor, random mutation, whatever) DR, there will be a massive selective pressure on an opposer to equally evolve an innate ability to circumvent the defence. dont think of it as a celestial with DR/evil, but with DR, and evil with a 'bypass DR of Good'. look at it thiss way- the beings of good havent finished evolving, not have the beings of evil. the current stats are a snapshot of their present abilities, defenses, weapons. they may totally different in a few millenia.