Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rironin 11-10-07, 09:32 PM	I'm making a CR 7 dragon challenge for an adventure, and want to use a green dragon. It seems I can't really get to CR 7 by adding hit dice alone (adding 4 hit dice to a Young Green Dragon bumps it up to a Juvenile, which is already CR 8 due to being large, I think) so I decided to add 2 hit dice, and 2 levels of sorcerer, which should bump it up from a CR 5 to a CR 7 challenge. My question is, do I use the elite ability array for this dragon, since most creature with class levels use the elite array? Dragons don't really follow the same rules as other creatures for ability scores. I'm not entirely sure whether the advancement of ability scores by age category reflects racial adjustments, HD-based ability bonuses (the kind one gets at 4th/8th/12th level/HD and so on), or both. How do I know which of the abilities were 10 and which were 11 if the dragon is using the standard 10,10,10,11,11,11 array as a base? Thanks!
Einvaldurinn_mikli 11-10-07, 09:52 PM	1)He'd get the elite array with no additional CR bumb for that. 2)The advancement and change of ability scores with increased age come from both from HD boosts and racial adjustments. The Dragons usually place their HD bonus points in to Dex, to keep it at 10. 3) The ones that are odd, were eleven, the ones that are even were ten.
Ace_of_time 11-10-07, 10:29 PM	To add more confusion they also includ size mods too. You only have to worry about ability adj from adding HD that go over the 4,8, 12 marks. Now if you making you own dragon and trying to figure out the adj to the score I'd say don't worry about that if you are going to use elite array because that is what theyused to make the dragon to begin with. you only want to figure out mods for abilities if you are using points buy or some other method. Just go with what the book says and add four levels and 1 point to dex to make up for the next size minus that is coming up.
rironin 11-10-07, 11:33 PM	The size bonuses confuse me, since the dragon clearly doesn't follow all the bonuses/penalties when it increases in size. Going from Small->Medium, the table says a creature should get +4 to Strength and -2 to Dexterity. But a Wyrmling Green Dragon goes from Small to Medium when it becomes a Very Young Green Dragon, and it gets +2 to Strength and no change in Dexterity. Using the ability mods at 4th, 8th, 12th, etc HD doesn't really work so well either, because Wyrmling->Very Young goes from 5 to 8 HD. If the dragon used its 8 HD ability bump on Dexterity, it would still have -1 to Dex bringing it down to 9. So is there a racial bonus to Dexterity as well, to counteract the size bonuses? Very confusing! How about this? Can I just replace the 10/11 array with the elite array and then make all the mods that the Young Green Dragon has in its abilities? That is to say: Normal Young Green Dragon STR 17 - 11 base +6 mod DEX 10 - 10 base, no mod CON 15 - 11 base, +4 mod INT 12 - 10 base, +2 mod WIS 13 - 11 base, +2 mod CHA 12 - 10 base, +2 mod Now using the elite array... Advanced Young Green Dragon (13 HD, 2 Sorcerer levels) STR 14 - 8 base +6 mod DEX 10 - 10 base, no mod CON 19 - 15 base, +4 mod INT 14 - 12 base, +2 mod WIS 15 - 13 base, +2 mod CHA 17 - 14 base, +2 mod, +1 12th HD boost So I'm taking the ability scores of the 11 HD Young Green Dragon, replacing the base abilities with the elite array, and giving it its 12th HD ability boost (in Con, which I suppose is abnormal since dragons usually put it into Dex - this dragon would be clumsier than most in the future, but meh). Does the above ability array stack up correctly? Thanks!
runestar 11-11-07, 12:33 AM	For all intents and purposes, think of the different age categories as entire separate and new dragons that have no relation to the earlier stages, rather than advanced versions. For example, envision a wyrmling and very young dragon as 2 completely separate entries in the MM, rather than variants of one another. Your stat allocation is for most part correct, though I see no point in assigning that +1 stat boost from your 12th HD to cha (since it is an odd number), where it could be placed in say, con (for an extra 15 hp). Though I see no harm in placing that 8 in dex rather than str.
rironin 11-11-07, 01:44 AM	For all intents and purposes, think of the different age categories as entire separate and new dragons that have no relation to the earlier stages, rather than advanced versions. For example, envision a wyrmling and very young dragon as 2 completely separate entries in the MM, rather than variants of one another. Your stat allocation is for most part correct, though I see no point in assigning that +1 stat boost from your 12th HD to cha (since it is an odd number), where it could be placed in say, con (for an extra 15 hp). Though I see no harm in placing that 8 in dex rather than str.It's not optimized, true, but it sort of worked out this way. Originally I wanted any kind of CR 7 Green Dragon; then with the sorcerer levels it kind of shaped a concept. Instead of making it the best CR 7 dragon I can, I kind of like the idea of making him a career sorcerer, putting his ability boost into Cha. The 8 Strength does weaken his hits, but it could also explain why he started early on the path to magic anyways - being naturally weaker than his kin. With a nice selection of feats from the Draconomicon, I think he'll still make a deadly-enough BBEG for my 5th level characters. Hope so, at least :) Once I get a look at their characters at 5th level, maybe I'll switch the abilities... 15 hp and a tougher breath weapon DC would be nice... thanks!
Ace_of_time 11-11-07, 04:39 AM	Green Dragons by Age Age Size Hit Dice (hp) Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha Base Attack/ Grapple Attack Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Breath Weapon (DC) Frightful Presence DC Wyrmling S 5d12+5 (37) 13 10 13 10 11 10 +5/+2 +7 +5 +4 +4 2d6 (13) — Very young M 8d12+16 (68) 15 10 15 10 11 10 +8/+10 +10 +8 +6 +6 4d6 (16) — Young M 11d12+22 (93) 17 10 15 12 13 12 +11/+14 +14 +9 +7 +8 6d6 (17) — Juvenile L 14d12+42 (133) 19 10 17 14 15 14 +14/+22 +17 +12 +9 +11 8d6 (20) — Young adult L 17d12+68 (178) 23 10 19 14 15 14 +17/+27 +22 +14 +10 +12 10d6 (22) 20 Adult H 20d12+100 (230) 27 10 21 16 17 16 +20/+36 +26 +17 +12 +15 12d6 (25) 23 Mature adult H 23d12+115 (264) 29 10 21 16 17 16 +23/+40 +30 +18 +13 +16 14d6 (26) 24 Old H 26d12+156 (325) 31 10 23 18 19 18 +26/+44 +34 +21 +15 +19 16d6 (29) 27 Very old H 29d12+174 (362) 33 10 23 18 19 18 +29/+48 +38 +22 +16 +20 18d6 (30) 28 Ancient G 32d12+224 (432) 35 10 25 20 21 20 +32/+56 +40 +25 +18 +23 20d6 (33) 31 Wyrm G 35d12+280 (507) 37 10 27 20 21 20 +35/+60 +44 +27 +19 +24 22d6 (35) 32 Great wyrm G 38d12+304 (551) 39 10 27 22 23 22 +38/+64 +48 +29 +21 +27 24d6 (37) 35 As you can see they do get +4 str they dragon only get +2 at a time. trust me the size mod are added in if you just look at it. The MM just assumes that they put there level up points on dex and that is why it never goes down. Why not just roll the stat out as if it were a PC and they add in the bonuses from wyrmling and put the rest of the levels on sorc. They stack with his spell casting abilitiy when he gets it anyway. That would give him 4 levels of spell casting.
runestar 11-11-07, 08:30 AM	The MM assumes nothing. I believe that dragons do not explicitly get the +1 stat boost every 4th HD (there are a few MM monsters which do not get it likewise).
Ace_of_time 11-11-07, 04:59 PM	So they just skip the part where they take a -2 pen to dex when increasing size? Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores. Since your using the mod for a dragon of increased HD when you up an age cat you don't add in ability increases because they are figured in to the bases for each age cat. Since all abilities except dex increase as they age so if they didn't put the scores on them they wouldn't even have a Dex at great wyrm.
runestar 11-11-07, 08:17 PM	So they just skip the part where they take a -2 pen to dex when increasing size? My take is that they don't so much as skip it as ignore it altogether. Read my earlier post. It posits that the various age categories should be separated, rather than be seen as a natural extension of the previous one. Basically, don't bother looking for any sort of connection between say, a very young dragon and a young one. Treat them as 2 separate and completely different monsters (like comparing an ogre with a hill giant), rather than one being an advanced version of the other (and tearing your hair out trying to figure where its stat improvements went). I don't believe any exist, and will only end up stifling the designers' creativity, since they have less freedom to fill in the cr niches they want the dragons to achieve.
Ace_of_time 11-12-07, 07:52 PM	When we play we just ignore all size mods and use the adjs from the MM. That might be easiest.
runestar 11-12-07, 09:34 PM	How so? I mean - all the relevant stats and info you need are in the MM dragon entry. What can be easier than simply using those values straight?:confused:
Ace_of_time 11-13-07, 09:10 AM	That is what I was talking about.:confused:
ArochanoX 11-13-07, 11:25 AM	My question is, do I use the elite ability array for this dragon, since most creature with class levels use the elite array? You definetely don't use elite array without increasing the CR by +1 (as monster manual says). Using elite array is one way to improve monster. You could use the NPC array (which is used for gnomes, elves and the like in the monster manual). NPC array is sort of an average of plain 3d6 roll (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Avg. 10,5). Elite array is sort of an average of 4d6 drop lowest method (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Avg 12).
rironin 11-13-07, 12:38 PM	You definetely don't use elite array without increasing the CR by +1 (as monster manual says). Using elite array is one way to improve monster. You could use the NPC array (which is used for gnomes, elves and the like in the monster manual). NPC array is sort of an average of plain 3d6 roll (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Avg. 10,5). Elite array is sort of an average of 4d6 drop lowest method (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Avg 12).I'm pretty sure that any monster that takes class levels is supposed to use the elite array. An ogre with a level of fighter, for instance, should use the elite array, and his CR is increased by +1 for taking the fighter level - the elite ability array is part of taking class levels, and doesn't increase the CR any more than the +1 for the fighter level.If you give a creature a PC class, such as fighter or druid, use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.The book then gives examples of the troll hunter, which has a PC class and the elite array, and an orc warrior, which has an NPC class and therefore uses the nonelite array.
ArochanoX 11-13-07, 12:57 PM	IMPROVING MONSTERS Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels. Class Levels: Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities. Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows. Templates: Both intelligent and nonintelligent creatures with an unusual heritage or an inflicted change in their essential nature may be modified with a template. Templates usually result in tougher monsters with capabilities that differ from those of their common kin. Each of these three methods for improving monsters is discussed in more detail below. ABILITY SCORE ARRAYS Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite. Elite Array: The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. While the monster has one weakness compared to a typical member of its race, it is significantly better overall. The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class. Nonelite Array: The nonelite array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class. Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores. When adding class levels to a creature, you should give it typical ability scores appropriate for that class. Most creatures are built using the standard array of ability scores: 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, adjusted by racial modifiers. If you give a creature a PC class use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Creatures with NPC classes use the nonelite array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. T Monster’s ability scores based on elite array* +1 to CR * Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.) Especially the last two quotes make my point quite clear. Dragons (whose statistic block reads: advancement by age and racial HD) aren't meant to advance by character class and thus need to pay the +1 CR for the elite array. The MM just suggests you should use the elite array if you use class levels on the monster. It says that you don't need to pay the cost if the advancement line says "by character class". But as dragons are advanced by HD, the +1 CR for elite array should be used. Or you should use the non-elite array.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-13-07, 01:08 PM	I'm making a CR 7 dragon challenge for an adventure, and want to use a green dragon. It seems I can't really get to CR 7 by adding hit dice alone (adding 4 hit dice to a Young Green Dragon bumps it up to a Juvenile, which is already CR 8 due to being large, I think) so I decided to add 2 hit dice, and 2 levels of sorcerer, which should bump it up from a CR 5 to a CR 7 challenge. I think you're putting too much faith in the advancement guidelines. A young green is a CR 5 and a juvenile is CR 8, a difference of 3 CRs. Whadya know, each age category is separated by 3 HD, so it follows that to get CR 7 you can just add 2 HD to a young dragon and add most of the abilities that it gets at the juvenile age. The significant things that a green gets by becoming juvenile are: Large size, boost to Str and Con, breath weapon dice, +1 AC per HD and 1st caster level. So simply add 2 HD, +2 AC, either Large size or 1 caster level, either +2 Str or +2 Con and another breath weapon die and you've got yourself a CR 7 greenie. My question is, do I use the elite ability array for this dragon, since most creature with class levels use the elite array? Dragons don't really follow the same rules as other creatures for ability scores. I'm not entirely sure whether the advancement of ability scores by age category reflects racial adjustments, HD-based ability bonuses (the kind one gets at 4th/8th/12th level/HD and so on), or both. How do I know which of the abilities were 10 and which were 11 if the dragon is using the standard 10,10,10,11,11,11 array as a base? The elite array issue is a bit sticky because while you are supposed to automatically use it for any monster with class levels for no boost in CR, the draconomicon states that you can add the elite array to any dragon without class levels which adds +1 CR. Use your best judgment. The scores that are odd were 11 and the ones that are even were 10. Basic published monsters do not get stat boosts every 4 HD, so don't worry about retconning your dragon here. Also a little monster design secret: stats are only based on size and other "realistic" concerns in only the vaguest of ways. The size mods in the CR advancement guidelines don't have anything to do with how dragons are advanced through their age categories; the monster designers simply picked the stats which they think are appropriate for its CR and left it at that.
rironin 11-13-07, 01:33 PM	Especially the last two quotes make my point quite clear.I wasn't aware of those last two quotes. However, if I had been, I would've used them in my argument - because I think they support my argument just fine, rather than proving it wrong. There is nothing in those lines to suggest that the elite array only comes with an added class level if the creature description says it advances "by class level." They merely say that if you add class levels to a creature, you use the elite array. The note in that CR table says "Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels." Maybe you're interpreting that next part, where it mentions "Monsters advanced by class levels," to mean only monsters that usually advance by class levels as opposed to by hit dice, but there really isn't enough written there to make it clear or conclusive. I have an example (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20061110a). The choker there was given extra hit dice to get it to 7 HD (and CR 3, since it added 4 aberration HD), and then went rogue 1/warlock 1. It has the elite array. The advanced choker's CR is 5: 2 base, 1 for extra HD, 1 each for warlock and rogue. As you can see, the elite array came with the class levels. Another example (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a). This vrock was given 6 HD, bringing its CR from 9 to 12, and then one barbarian level, bringing its CR to 13. And yet, it has the elite ability array. Neither the choker nor the vrock normally advanced "by character class" according to the monsters' stat blocks. I think that makes my position fairly airtight. Unless the Monster Manual was being very unclear about which monsters get the elite array "for free" with class levels, and unless all the designers who've been making D&D Fight Club articles are building their monsters wrong, I do believe any creature that gets PC class levels gets the elite array as part of those level advancements.
ArochanoX 11-13-07, 01:51 PM	but there really isn't enough written there to make it clear or conclusive. And technically elite array isn't really worth the +1 CR in most cases anyways. I still think that monsters that have class levels shouldn't "automatically gain" the elite array, as it is still somewhat powerful than the normal monster array.
rironin 11-13-07, 02:30 PM	I think you're putting too much faith in the advancement guidelines. A young green is a CR 5 and a juvenile is CR 8, a difference of 3 CRs. Whadya know, each age category is separated by 3 HD, so it follows that to get CR 7 you can just add 2 HD to a young dragon and add most of the abilities that it gets at the juvenile age. The significant things that a green gets by becoming juvenile are: Large size, boost to Str and Con, breath weapon dice, +1 AC per HD and 1st caster level. So simply add 2 HD, +2 AC, either Large size or 1 caster level, either +2 Str or +2 Con and another breath weapon die and you've got yourself a CR 7 greenie.That sounds like a reasonable way to build a CR 7 green dragon, but I think I'm happy with the class levels that I'm giving it. I like the flavor of my green dragon sorcerer.Basic published monsters do not get stat boosts every 4 HD, so don't worry about retconning your dragon here.They don't? Obviously for monsters as published it isn't really relevant, since for most monsters, they have the hit dice they have and the ability scores they have, and no one really cares how they got them. But the SRD seems to indicate that if published monsters gain hit dice in the usual way, they are entitled to ability score increases:Ability Score Improvement Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores. Dragons are one case where it can (and did, for me) get confusing, because the age categories imply that one dragon could be advanced as per normal hit dice increase rules from a wyrmling to a great wyrm and it would all work out, but...The size mods in the CR advancement guidelines don't have anything to do with how dragons are advanced through their age categories; the monster designers simply picked the stats which they think are appropriate for its CR and left it at that.Indeed, I agree. Best, as runestar said, to treat each age category as a completely different creature, modifying it as need be without trying to find some invented "half-category" that has to exist somewhere between one category and the next. It would be interesting from a continuity point of view, but isn't really necessary for my one-shot boss monster. Thanks for the input!
Ace_of_time 11-13-07, 03:10 PM	Well it really would be up to the Dm. Even if the rules say +1 CR if he/she gets the battle going and feel it was to easy/hard they could up/lower the CR anyway to cover the lower challange/ higher challange.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-13-07, 04:01 PM	That sounds like a reasonable way to build a CR 7 green dragon, but I think I'm happy with the class levels that I'm giving it. I like the flavor of my green dragon sorcerer. Fair enough. They don't? Obviously for monsters as published it isn't really relevant, since for most monsters, they have the hit dice they have and the ability scores they have, and no one really cares how they got them. It is very inconsistent and confusing. I myself didn't realize that monsters got stat boosts every 4th racial HD after their 'default HD' until Aroch posted that quote. In any case a +1 to a single stat every 4 HD isn't a huge deal, even for a beefy monster like a dragon.