Dragon Alignments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Alignments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JanxAran13
08-19-05, 07:36 PM Can the allignments for dragons change under certain circumstances? for example, could you raise a blue dragon from an egg when you're a chaotic good character and have its allignment be the same as yours?
The Abominable Darkling
08-19-05, 07:56 PM If you're the DM, then of course they can. If you're a player, then no, not unless the DM says so. ;)
JanxAran13
08-19-05, 07:58 PM If you're the DM, then of course they can. If you're a player, then no, not unless the DM says so. ;)

:eek: ...

thanks :D
Salla
08-19-05, 08:29 PM To answer the question a little more directly ... ;)

Dragons are listed as having 'always XX' alignments, which, by the RAW, means that any dragons that don't match the typical alignment are one in a million (or however many dragons there are). The instance you mention could very well be one of those cases that generates a different alignment, subject to DM discretion (as everything is).

I'm not a huge fan of 'always' alignments for anything free-willed and sentient, given that free will means you can make your own decisions and moral choices ... but that's me.
Kothardarastrix
08-19-05, 08:34 PM The attitude most dragons have is instinctual. Although with all the nifty spells like sanctify the wicked and such you could. Me in my campaign I had a Fiendish Silver Dragon, who hid his fiendish qualities through illusions, who tricked the PCs into trying to slay an 'Evil' Red Dragon. What they didn't know was that the Red Dragons parents were killed by a pair of silver dragons who took him and his siblings and raised them as silvers.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon
08-19-05, 09:56 PM The attitude most dragons have is instinctual

I disagree. A dragon, especially the ones with high Intelligence, are quite capable of overidding their instincts. While instincts are a important factor, all sentient creatures are capable of making choices.

Take a chromatic dragon egg, hatch it, suppress only the evil instincts, teach it to be good, and you got an good aligned chromatic dragon.
Kothardarastrix
08-19-05, 11:02 PM You completely disregarded the fact that I said MOST, Evil Dragon types are normally abandoned as eggs, so their attitude comes from instinct. While a Dragon with it's parents doesnt have to think like an adult, and can follow it's parent's teachings.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon
08-19-05, 11:59 PM Yes, their evil is not just a result of their instincts, there upringing(or lack thereof in this case) is a important factor. There is a reason good dragons are ussually good, they are ussually reared by their parents to repress the dragons fierce instinct. A dragons instincts plus uncaring parents ussually results in evil. No I am not saying orphans are evil, its just that dragons agressive instincts must be repressed if the dragon can have a good chance of being good or nuetral.

I think we agree on the same thing. I chose wrong wording. Sorry for that.
Gilean
08-20-05, 06:57 AM The always-alignments are nonsensical. It is simply there to allow characters to slay any and all evil dragons without actually thinking about their nature. Yay, two-dimensional dragons!
pres_man
08-20-05, 09:42 AM I play that dragons have a certain amount of racial memory. This why even if they are not raised, they tend to have a certain alignment and know draconic (which if they were not raised, how would they learn it?).

I play that it is possible to change any intelligent creatures alignment (dragons, outsiders, lycanthropes) with time and effort. There are indications in the rules that this is not unreasonable. The fact that always doesn't in fact mean always. That outsiders with the evil subtype can actually be an alignment that is not evil (see back of MM). And in the MM2, there is a type of dragon that is know on occasion to raise white dragons that are better.

Though I would imagine that to convert a dragon, one would have to be extremely powerful, influential, and long lived.

In the end though, it all depends on the DM of the game, and how they deal with always.
obrysii
08-20-05, 10:21 AM I play that dragons have a certain amount of racial memory. This why even if they are not raised, they tend to have a certain alignment and know draconic (which if they were not raised, how would they learn it?).

That's basically what they say in the Draconomicon in the Wyrmling section. They have a racial memory, and so several hours after hatching, they have the mental capacities of at least an adult Human (including some knowledge of things)...and the maturity as well.

After those few hours, they are, while inexperianced, fully capable of using all of their abilities and generally (if living in an enviroment rich with resources) don't need much rearing. Since they have memories of the past within them, they are an innate alignment, but as living, thinking creatures, they can always change their ways. Same goes for all thinking creatures.
Kothardarastrix
08-21-05, 11:07 AM Also the BoED, goes deeply into that. It says you must treat the villain/creature very exceptional care. You must be willing to forgive his misdeeds. You must spend at least one hour a day talking about his evil ways and describe the benefits of being good, also showing him that a good deity will accept him as a worshipper after his misdeeds. The good character makes a special Diplomacy check. The villain makes a special will save adding his character levels, against a DC of the diplomacy check. The villain gets a +4 bonus on this if his alignment is listed as always or he would lose class abilities; outsiders of the evil subtype are immune to this. Neutral characters take a -2 penalty. If he fails seven saving throws in a row the evil axis of his alignment changes to neutral, seven more saving throws in a row and he changes to good. It's permanent.
Gilean
08-21-05, 12:43 PM Does that work against good characters to convert them into evil, or for law or chaos?
obrysii
08-21-05, 01:06 PM Does that work against good characters to convert them into evil, or for law or chaos?

It is far easier to fall than it is to rise. Similarly, I would think it is easier to become chaotic than to become lawful.
Kothardarastrix
08-22-05, 04:39 AM I'd rule that it only take three failures to be changed from good or lawul to evil or chaos, and seven to become lawful.
Drow_Rogue
08-22-05, 04:52 AM I see dragons as complex, intelligent beings, like humans and elves etc. As such, they may start out with a pre-determined alignment (LG golds, CE reds etc) but as time progresses and they experience/suffer/see/learn more and more of the world their alignments can shift. Many of the oldest dragons IMC have at least one Neutral alignment as they become jaded, and you are just as likely to meet a benevolent NG red wyrm as an power hungry CE gold adult. And as a previous poster mentioned, just because they have one alignment doesnt mean they cant carry out actions that SEEM to contradict that alignment. :)
Kothardarastrix
08-22-05, 07:23 AM No, I beleive that once a dragon has established his alignment during his upbringing, the only thing that can change that is the sanctify the wicked spell or the rules for redeeming them; unless you invoke the almighty power of the Rule Zero spell, but that's for the amateur DM.
Raven Dark
08-22-05, 11:20 AM Alignment
This line gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to the species as a whole.

Alignment: This line in a monster entry gives the alignment that a creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind.
Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a heridtary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.
Usually: The majority (more than 50%) of these creatures have the given alignment. This may be due to strong cultural influences, or it may be a legacy of the creatures' origin. For example, most elves inherited their chaotic good alignment from their creator, the deity Corellon Larethian.
Often: The creature tends toward the given alignment, either by nature or nurture, but not strongly. A plurality (40-50%) of individuals have the given alignment, but exceptions are common.

The sections I have cited from the above text show that it is possible to have a any creature of any alignment, although "naturally" changing the alignment of animals, outsiders from certain planes, and mindless undead is still debatable.

In any case, a Helm of Opposite Alignment (DMG, page 275) and some powerful spells (see above posts) can do the trick too.

I hope that answers your question in a manner you find satisfactory.

I personally believe that, yes, you could raise a blue dragon to goodness. Even so, it was born evil and what's more, it has a severe disposition towards evil. The character raising said dragon is going to have a hard time, but accomplishing his task (a CG blue dragon) is possible. Such a creature would be considered "unique" or "a rare exception".
Rotipher
08-22-05, 12:01 PM IMO, it makes for a more dramatic game if factors such as "instinct", "bad upbringing", "race memory", "genetic predisposition" and the like are NOT the true factors responsible for the actions of evil-aligned creatures. Which is more truly evil: a red dragon that behaves in an evil manner because it's compelled to do so, be it by nature, nurture, or any combination of the two ... or one that's 100% capable of converting to goodness, _and chooses to be evil anyway_?

People who *want* good-aligned chromatics will always tell you that free will should give a dragon the option of changing its alignment. Yet the honest truth is, any sentient being presented with moral and ethical choices is entirely capable of siding with evil ON PURPOSE. Evil dragons don't need instinctive compulsions to make them ruthless; they just need to weigh the potential benefits of such behavior, given their own vast destructive capabilities, against the (negligible) risk to themselves posed by potential hapless victims. If a normal, fallible human being were suddenly endowed with the rip-snorting, mountain-shaking power of your average red dragon, would many of THEM choose to restrain themselves, faced with a world full of defenseless prey...? Metallic and chromatic dragons don't need an inherent moral compass, to dictate their alignments; all they need is for the former to *fear* their own potential might, were it unleashed, and the latter to *revel* in it.
pres_man
08-22-05, 02:46 PM Also I've read some people house rule that the color of the dragon is based on the alignment, not the other way around. That is the color is a physical manifestation of their personality. I think the persons who did this did something similiar for fiends and celestials as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JanxAran13 08-19-05, 07:36 PM	Can the allignments for dragons change under certain circumstances? for example, could you raise a blue dragon from an egg when you're a chaotic good character and have its allignment be the same as yours?
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 07:56 PM	If you're the DM, then of course they can. If you're a player, then no, not unless the DM says so. ;)
JanxAran13 08-19-05, 07:58 PM	If you're the DM, then of course they can. If you're a player, then no, not unless the DM says so. ;) :eek: ... thanks :D
Salla 08-19-05, 08:29 PM	To answer the question a little more directly ... ;) Dragons are listed as having 'always XX' alignments, which, by the RAW, means that any dragons that don't match the typical alignment are one in a million (or however many dragons there are). The instance you mention could very well be one of those cases that generates a different alignment, subject to DM discretion (as everything is). I'm not a huge fan of 'always' alignments for anything free-willed and sentient, given that free will means you can make your own decisions and moral choices ... but that's me.
Kothardarastrix 08-19-05, 08:34 PM	The attitude most dragons have is instinctual. Although with all the nifty spells like sanctify the wicked and such you could. Me in my campaign I had a Fiendish Silver Dragon, who hid his fiendish qualities through illusions, who tricked the PCs into trying to slay an 'Evil' Red Dragon. What they didn't know was that the Red Dragons parents were killed by a pair of silver dragons who took him and his siblings and raised them as silvers.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-19-05, 09:56 PM	The attitude most dragons have is instinctual I disagree. A dragon, especially the ones with high Intelligence, are quite capable of overidding their instincts. While instincts are a important factor, all sentient creatures are capable of making choices. Take a chromatic dragon egg, hatch it, suppress only the evil instincts, teach it to be good, and you got an good aligned chromatic dragon.
Kothardarastrix 08-19-05, 11:02 PM	You completely disregarded the fact that I said MOST, Evil Dragon types are normally abandoned as eggs, so their attitude comes from instinct. While a Dragon with it's parents doesnt have to think like an adult, and can follow it's parent's teachings.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-19-05, 11:59 PM	Yes, their evil is not just a result of their instincts, there upringing(or lack thereof in this case) is a important factor. There is a reason good dragons are ussually good, they are ussually reared by their parents to repress the dragons fierce instinct. A dragons instincts plus uncaring parents ussually results in evil. No I am not saying orphans are evil, its just that dragons agressive instincts must be repressed if the dragon can have a good chance of being good or nuetral. I think we agree on the same thing. I chose wrong wording. Sorry for that.
Gilean 08-20-05, 06:57 AM	The always-alignments are nonsensical. It is simply there to allow characters to slay any and all evil dragons without actually thinking about their nature. Yay, two-dimensional dragons!
pres_man 08-20-05, 09:42 AM	I play that dragons have a certain amount of racial memory. This why even if they are not raised, they tend to have a certain alignment and know draconic (which if they were not raised, how would they learn it?). I play that it is possible to change any intelligent creatures alignment (dragons, outsiders, lycanthropes) with time and effort. There are indications in the rules that this is not unreasonable. The fact that always doesn't in fact mean always. That outsiders with the evil subtype can actually be an alignment that is not evil (see back of MM). And in the MM2, there is a type of dragon that is know on occasion to raise white dragons that are better. Though I would imagine that to convert a dragon, one would have to be extremely powerful, influential, and long lived. In the end though, it all depends on the DM of the game, and how they deal with always.
obrysii 08-20-05, 10:21 AM	I play that dragons have a certain amount of racial memory. This why even if they are not raised, they tend to have a certain alignment and know draconic (which if they were not raised, how would they learn it?). That's basically what they say in the Draconomicon in the Wyrmling section. They have a racial memory, and so several hours after hatching, they have the mental capacities of at least an adult Human (including some knowledge of things)...and the maturity as well. After those few hours, they are, while inexperianced, fully capable of using all of their abilities and generally (if living in an enviroment rich with resources) don't need much rearing. Since they have memories of the past within them, they are an innate alignment, but as living, thinking creatures, they can always change their ways. Same goes for all thinking creatures.
Kothardarastrix 08-21-05, 11:07 AM	Also the BoED, goes deeply into that. It says you must treat the villain/creature very exceptional care. You must be willing to forgive his misdeeds. You must spend at least one hour a day talking about his evil ways and describe the benefits of being good, also showing him that a good deity will accept him as a worshipper after his misdeeds. The good character makes a special Diplomacy check. The villain makes a special will save adding his character levels, against a DC of the diplomacy check. The villain gets a +4 bonus on this if his alignment is listed as always or he would lose class abilities; outsiders of the evil subtype are immune to this. Neutral characters take a -2 penalty. If he fails seven saving throws in a row the evil axis of his alignment changes to neutral, seven more saving throws in a row and he changes to good. It's permanent.
Gilean 08-21-05, 12:43 PM	Does that work against good characters to convert them into evil, or for law or chaos?
obrysii 08-21-05, 01:06 PM	Does that work against good characters to convert them into evil, or for law or chaos? It is far easier to fall than it is to rise. Similarly, I would think it is easier to become chaotic than to become lawful.
Kothardarastrix 08-22-05, 04:39 AM	I'd rule that it only take three failures to be changed from good or lawul to evil or chaos, and seven to become lawful.
Drow_Rogue 08-22-05, 04:52 AM	I see dragons as complex, intelligent beings, like humans and elves etc. As such, they may start out with a pre-determined alignment (LG golds, CE reds etc) but as time progresses and they experience/suffer/see/learn more and more of the world their alignments can shift. Many of the oldest dragons IMC have at least one Neutral alignment as they become jaded, and you are just as likely to meet a benevolent NG red wyrm as an power hungry CE gold adult. And as a previous poster mentioned, just because they have one alignment doesnt mean they cant carry out actions that SEEM to contradict that alignment. :)
Kothardarastrix 08-22-05, 07:23 AM	No, I beleive that once a dragon has established his alignment during his upbringing, the only thing that can change that is the sanctify the wicked spell or the rules for redeeming them; unless you invoke the almighty power of the Rule Zero spell, but that's for the amateur DM.
Raven Dark 08-22-05, 11:20 AM	Alignment This line gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to the species as a whole. Alignment: This line in a monster entry gives the alignment that a creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind. Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a heridtary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions. Usually: The majority (more than 50%) of these creatures have the given alignment. This may be due to strong cultural influences, or it may be a legacy of the creatures' origin. For example, most elves inherited their chaotic good alignment from their creator, the deity Corellon Larethian. Often: The creature tends toward the given alignment, either by nature or nurture, but not strongly. A plurality (40-50%) of individuals have the given alignment, but exceptions are common. The sections I have cited from the above text show that it is possible to have a any creature of any alignment, although "naturally" changing the alignment of animals, outsiders from certain planes, and mindless undead is still debatable. In any case, a Helm of Opposite Alignment (DMG, page 275) and some powerful spells (see above posts) can do the trick too. I hope that answers your question in a manner you find satisfactory. I personally believe that, yes, you could raise a blue dragon to goodness. Even so, it was born evil and what's more, it has a severe disposition towards evil. The character raising said dragon is going to have a hard time, but accomplishing his task (a CG blue dragon) is possible. Such a creature would be considered "unique" or "a rare exception".
Rotipher 08-22-05, 12:01 PM	IMO, it makes for a more dramatic game if factors such as "instinct", "bad upbringing", "race memory", "genetic predisposition" and the like are NOT the true factors responsible for the actions of evil-aligned creatures. Which is more truly evil: a red dragon that behaves in an evil manner because it's compelled to do so, be it by nature, nurture, or any combination of the two ... or one that's 100% capable of converting to goodness, _and chooses to be evil anyway_? People who want good-aligned chromatics will always tell you that free will should give a dragon the option of changing its alignment. Yet the honest truth is, any sentient being presented with moral and ethical choices is entirely capable of siding with evil ON PURPOSE. Evil dragons don't need instinctive compulsions to make them ruthless; they just need to weigh the potential benefits of such behavior, given their own vast destructive capabilities, against the (negligible) risk to themselves posed by potential hapless victims. If a normal, fallible human being were suddenly endowed with the rip-snorting, mountain-shaking power of your average red dragon, would many of THEM choose to restrain themselves, faced with a world full of defenseless prey...? Metallic and chromatic dragons don't need an inherent moral compass, to dictate their alignments; all they need is for the former to fear their own potential might, were it unleashed, and the latter to revel in it.
pres_man 08-22-05, 02:46 PM	Also I've read some people house rule that the color of the dragon is based on the alignment, not the other way around. That is the color is a physical manifestation of their personality. I think the persons who did this did something similiar for fiends and celestials as well.