Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elolad 09-02-06, 08:31 PM	Is there a 3.0 or 3.5 book that covers the uses of dragon parts? I'm a new player (relatively) and we slew a dragon recently. We took its horns , eyes, tongue, calws, teeth, scales, etc. because we assumed they would be worth something in the game--if not then trophies are always good right? Anyone know of a book that governs their uses?
KingGolem 09-02-06, 08:52 PM	I don't believe that their is a book on such a thing, but in the DMG it has rules on dragonscale armor. If you read that, based on its size you might be able to figure out how much its hide is worth. But if you want my help on anything else, your going to have to tell me the size and type of dragon you killed. But probably the most valuable part of the dragon if you were to sell its body parts to a wizards guild for study would be the sac that holds the magic juices for their breath weapon.
Arvagor 09-02-06, 09:03 PM	You might try picking up the Draconomicon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/176680000) ...
Insane Pixie 09-02-06, 09:13 PM	Draconomicon has all of that. And more. EDIT: Beaten to the punch... by 10 minutes. That's what I get for ingnoring my already open tabs while I dink around...
obrysii 09-02-06, 09:57 PM	There is also a somewhat recent Dragon magazine with even more uses for dragon bodies.
Tenzhi 09-03-06, 02:49 AM	There is also a somewhat recent Dragon magazine with even more uses for dragon bodies. Kinky...
Derren S. 09-03-06, 04:37 AM	Most parts of a dragon are useless. Just accept it. Only because it has a high CR doesn't makes the corpse a magical tool box.
Tenzhi 09-03-06, 04:41 AM	Most parts of a dragon are useless. Just accept it. Only because it has a high CR doesn't makes the corpse a magical tool box. It has less to do with the CR, and more to do with, yanno, the myths and legends that dragons spring from. You kind of expect to get special benefits from eating its heart or drinking its blood because legendarily that's what happens. Kind of like the mystical properties of unicorn horn.
Derren S. 09-03-06, 04:49 AM	Please tell me the myths were the dragon tongue, eyes or brain has any special properties. And how many myths are there were dragon blood gives special powers? I only know one. Imo its just the players seeing the dragonscale entry in the books and now wanting even more free goodies. Also the D&D world is filled with powerfull and strange creatures. When the corpse of dragons have so many special properties then of course the corpses of other creatures must have too. Even a gnome corpse must have special properties. PS: If your DM lets dragon parts special effects, he of course has to reduce the horde of the dragon accordingly. Don't forget that...
Tenzhi 09-03-06, 05:18 AM	Please tell me the myths were the dragon tongue, eyes or brain has any special properties. And how many myths are there were dragon blood gives special powers? I only know one. Fafnir, of course. One of the most famous legends - and it only takes one to spark the furor. The tongues of Ladon in Greek Mythology supposedly allowed one to speak in different languages. One could interpret the legend of Orochi to mean that the materials of a dragon's tail could be used to create a special sword. And of course there are all the associations of draconic parts in Chinese medicine. And that's before we take into account more modern fantasy that has also had influence on our perception of dragons. And in many cases such literary references have drawn inspiration from mythological sources that a layman like myself is unfamiliar with. Imo its just the players seeing the dragonscale entry in the books and now wanting even more free goodies. Before there was a dragonscale entry and all these Editions, there were still dragons and people looking to get special effects from their pieces. Also the D&D world is filled with powerfull and strange creatures. When the corpse of dragons have so many special properties then of course the corpses of other creatures must have too. Even a gnome corpse must have special properties. It could be taken that far. But dragons are more special than gnomes in the eyes of many. Dragons, unicorns, the Phoenix - these are the sorts of iconic magical creatures expected to have special effects associated with even their carcasses.
Derren S. 09-03-06, 05:33 AM	It could be taken that far. But dragons are more special than gnomes in the eyes of many. Dragons, unicorns, the Phoenix - these are the sorts of iconic magical creatures expected to have special effects associated with even their carcasses. Actually they aren't. Both have inborn magical abilities and neiter one is neccessary more powerfull (lvl 20 gnome adventurer...) You quoted 2 myths out of many. That are not very much so using myths as explanation for people wanting special things from dragon corpses doen't work and it also does not fit into D&D.
Tenzhi 09-03-06, 06:26 AM	Actually they aren't. Both have inborn magical abilities and neiter one is neccessary more powerfull (lvl 20 gnome adventurer...) Actually, I said they are more *special* not powerful. Go up to a random person on the street and they'll be a great deal more likely to know what a mythological dragon (or phoenix, or unicorn for that matter - there's a reason these are iconic legends) is than a gnome. You quoted 2 myths out of many. That are not very much so using myths as explanation for people wanting special things from dragon corpses doen't work and it also does not fit into D&D. Three, actually. Fafnir, Ladon, and Orochi. I could go into the mystical properties of the feathery scales of Zu, the horns of Tiamat, the eyes of Gyninch, the Pearls of Huang Long, and many more though I'd have to ferret through tomes and interweb for 'em. Dragons are so legendary that they span cultures and have different properties associated with them throughout the world. And that's just counting older myths and legends. D&D draws a lot of inspiration from more modern fantasy as well. And the sources of mystical draconic properties in modern fantasy are well-documented. Many of those associations likely have their roots in the UK or thereabouts, probably drawing on Celtic folklore and the like regarding the properties of such things as Dragon's blood. Probably descended from the same folklore at the root of the properties of Fafnir's blood in the story of Sigrd, even. But all it really takes is *one* influential legend to get the ball rolling. That's what makes legends so legendary. And it certainly has a place in D&D. There was a time when it would have been a standard necessity to hunt down these various legendary parts for magic items rather than just putting a GP into the mage and having an item pop out.
Derren S. 09-03-06, 07:03 AM	Actually, I said they are more *special* not powerful. Go up to a random person on the street and they'll be a great deal more likely to know what a mythological dragon (or phoenix, or unicorn for that matter - there's a reason these are iconic legends) is than a gnome. Everyone on the streets also knows who the president/ruler of the country they live in is, so translated into D&D would the severed nose of a king have any special powers because everyone knew who he was?
Th_Ar_Al 09-03-06, 09:13 AM	Kinky... Disturbing. Half-dragon Spider Disturbing.
Tenzhi 09-03-06, 10:11 AM	Some more: http://www.lair2000.net/Chinese_Dragons/Uses_of_Dragons/chinese_dragon_cures1.html http://outer-rim.lweb.net/mythos/31draconus.html And then there's the story of Cadmus who used dragon's teeth to create an army by planting the teeth in the ground. The list goes on and on. Everyone on the streets also knows who the president/ruler of the country they live in is, so translated into D&D would the severed nose of a king have any special powers because everyone knew who he was? If that king were also known for having special properties. But that is something generally reserved for the likes of Saints than Kings. You have heard of Saints' relics, haven't you?
obrysii 09-03-06, 10:26 AM	I have to agree with Tenzhi on this.
Secrets Untold 09-03-06, 12:22 PM	Tenzhi wins on everthything besides his saying pheonix corpses are valuable. Pheonixes (Pheonixi?) burst into flame when they die, leaving ash, not a body. But you could use the left over ash, after the babby is born...
Derren S. 09-03-06, 01:13 PM	Ok, if you want to give out bonuses because of arbitrary definitions. I want to keep my game logical which includes not making corpses special only because the monster had the dragon type.
Arvagor 09-03-06, 01:35 PM	A cursory glance of the Draconomicon shows items made from or spells that require a dragon's: - blood - bones - scales/hide - teeth - claws - eyes - horns I'm sure there are other undefined uses for other parts (wizards wanting them for alchemical research, etc.). Why is that not logical? Everyone on the streets also knows who the president/ruler of the country they live in is, ...You haven't really seen a typical US teenager being tested on current events, have you? ;)
Elolad 09-03-06, 01:36 PM	Thanks for the info gentlemen... I didn't mean to spark a debate. I was simply curious. I knew about the scales in the DMG, but our group decided it would be at least a trophy to knock off the horns and such. Our party killed a Young Adult Blue Dragon... all, I can say is thank goodness for evasion or my character would have been electrocuted severely! I will take a look at the draconomicon... thanks!
Melpomene 09-03-06, 03:33 PM	You should always eat a dragon's heart after you kill it. Game effect or not.
420 09-03-06, 03:38 PM	Ok, if you want to give out bonuses because of arbitrary definitions. I want to keep my game logical which includes not making corpses special only because the monster had the dragon type. Then you're not playing D&D, simple as that. I hardly think that treating Dragons special is "arbitrary" (hint: check out what the letters in "D&D" stand for). They are the only creatures in the game with an age category in which they get more powerful simply by staying alive over time. So I guess your "logical" game ignores the fact that Dragons are treated differently than any other creature in D&D and ignors actual official rules regarding dragon parts as presented in the Draconomicon. Say... you wouldn't happen to be one of those people that thinks the word "lich" sounds like "like" would you? -420
WhiteRaven810 09-03-06, 03:47 PM	Races of Dragon has dragon grafts, which are parts of the dragon you place onto yourself. If you out right don't wish to have a dragon's eye ball, you could sell it to a grafter for a pretty penny. Dragon #332 is the issue with the dragon part use article. And of coarse Draconomicon has been mentioned.
Derren S. 09-03-06, 03:52 PM	In which way are dragons treated different then other monsters in D&D? (Hint: they aren't). Just because the name of the game contains "dragon" doesn't mean that dragons are special. They have stats like all other monsters and do not have any special ability. And mosts grafts require samples from unborn or living dragons. Ar slain dragon is rather useless for grafting.
Insane Pixie 09-03-06, 04:08 PM	Just because the name of the game contains "dragon" doesn't mean that dragons are special. They have stats like all other monsters and do not have any special ability. A) They have the highest Hit Die in the game, full BAB, and all good saves, as well as a handful of immunites. B) All dragons have their own special, unique abilities. Again, D&D. There's a reason for Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, Dragons of Faerūn (or whatever that one was called), the hype around the Dragon minis, and... you get it (I hope). Oh, and the Creature Competition. They're... dragons. All special dragons.
Derren S. 09-03-06, 04:16 PM	A) And? Outsiders are nearly as powerfull. And power alone doesn't make dragons special. B) There have also been special books about Undead, fiends and abbarations. Again no dragon exclusive thing.
Insane Pixie 09-03-06, 04:20 PM	A) And? Outsiders are nearly as powerfull. And power alone doesn't make dragons special. Yes, but they aren't. And, outsiders don't gain power just by sitting on treasure, getting old. B) There have also been special books about Undead, fiends and abbarations. Again no dragon exclusive thing. They've have a book on Undead, a book on Fiends (two if you count the Fiend Folio, but the Codex is really an update), and a book on Aberrations. Dragons have handfuls.
Derren S. 09-03-06, 04:49 PM	Yes, but they aren't. And, outsiders don't gain power just by sitting on treasure, getting old. Everyone gets more powerfull doing nothing while he is not full grown. The only thing special is that there are stats for dragons who are not full grown yet while other monsters only have stats for full grown ups.
Arvagor 09-03-06, 05:25 PM	Everyone gets more powerfull doing nothing while he is not full grown. The only thing special is that there are stats for dragons who are not full grown yet while other monsters only have stats for full grown ups. We're talking about the fact that as they age -- even past adulthood -- dragons continue to get more powerful, i.e., with the exception of Dexterity, every ability continues to increase, they continue to get physically bigger, they become more heavily armored, their spell resistance increases, etc. All other creatures begin to get physically weaker past a certain age, and for the "normal" humanoid PC races, it's even spelled out in the PHB (at 'Middle Age', which for a human PC, is age 35)
Derren S. 09-03-06, 05:45 PM	The dragon age categories are likewise an arbitrary decision. That the age category "adult" is not at the top of the list doesn't mean anything. Call great wyrm stage adult and everything is right again. And Outsiders are flat out immortal which is even better then what dragons have so again no argument.
Agent Dark Star 09-03-06, 06:14 PM	If you don't like the idea of dragon parts not being valuable then how do you explain spell components and such? Most of those are mundane, like (2nd ed) bat guano for a fireball. Most of the dragon parts are used in much the same way; by themselves they have no intrinsic magical value, but when used in a formula, however...
420 09-03-06, 06:14 PM	The dragon age categories are likewise an arbitrary decision. So, does this mean you are finally admitting that Dragons are treated differently than every other creature in Dungeons & Dragons? Well, at least that shows you have a minor grasp of logic. The point of this thread isn't whether you think your rules for dragons are better than WotC's. The original poster asked if dragon parts have any value and multiple official D&D sources have been posted showing the value of dragon parts. Your disagreement with the official rules is irrelevant to this thread. Thanks for your opinion, 420
Arvagor 09-03-06, 08:41 PM	And Outsiders are flat out immortal which is even better then what dragons have so again no argument. What says dragons aren't? :D
Secrets Untold 09-03-06, 08:47 PM	Dracominicon. However, dragons are "virtually ageless" because they can easily live over 100,000 years.
Derren S. 09-04-06, 01:23 AM	But all material components from dragons are not expensive (bo gold cost) so you wouldn't be able to get something for them and they can be substituted. And dragons are not "virtually ageles" and can live for 100,000 years. They have a maximum age and die when getting too old (4400 years at max)
Ferox 09-04-06, 07:12 AM	I seem to recall some parts of a dragon being used to enhance evil spells in hte BoVD (book of vile darkness)
Tenzhi 09-04-06, 08:24 AM	Ok, if you want to give out bonuses because of arbitrary definitions. I want to keep my game logical which includes not making corpses special only because the monster had the dragon type. Heh. Rewriting the system to accomplish that are you? "Arbitrary" and "illogical" are the rule of the day in D&D. It seems more like you just have a hate on for dragons and their legendry.
Derren S. 09-04-06, 11:35 AM	Actually I love dragons, but I also hate unlogical concepts. And making dragon parts valuable just because they are dragons and parts of other monsters not is unlogical. Either all magical monsters have body parts with special effects (and that includes gnomes) or non.
Arvagor 09-04-06, 01:12 PM	Hey board posters! Good news! We don't have to worry about any of those monsters with special attacks anymore! They're not really magical, it's just an illusion we all failed our Will saves on! C'mon, it's OK to admit you're wrong. By your logic, the following creatures/items cannot function as described in the MM: Unicorn - "The horn is a +3 magic weapon"; it can also cure light 3/day and cure moderate 1/day "by touching a wounded creature with its horn". Not with its hoof, nor tail, but specifically its horn. Ergo, horn is magical. Pegasus - "Pegasus eggs are worth 2,000 gp each on the open market" Hippogriff - "Hippogriff eggs are worth 2,000 gp apiece on the open market" Griffon - "Griffon eggs are worth 3,500 gp apiece on the open market" Mohrg - Paralyzing Touch (Su) - only works with its tongue. Any creature with a gaze attack - gaze attacks don't work if the creature is blinded Etc. ... Shall we also disregard any of the sources that allow for grafts of various creatures body parts? Undead grafts from Libris Mortis, aberration grafts of all types from Lords of Madness, dragon grafts from Races of the Dragon, etc. Obviously, if we're grafting those body parts, the parts must, in some way, be magical in and of themselves.... And who says gnomes are left out? A friend of mine runs a campaign where gnomes are the main source of food for an entire nation (and I don't mean for their farming skills...).
420 09-04-06, 01:17 PM	Actually I love dragons, but I also hate unlogical concepts. "Unlogical"!?!? Well, now we all know the level of intelligence we are dealing with. I mean, this guy can't spell a word that was spelled correctly in the previous post. He is obviously ignoring (or unable to comprehend) both official D&D as well as ancient mythological sources. Derren S. is just another griefer troll looking for attention. Best to ignore him and hope he finds some other forum on which to cause grief. And making dragon parts valuable just because they are dragons and parts of other monsters not is unlogical. Again (ignoring your misspelling) it doesn't matter what your opinion is, the fact is that the game known as Dungeons & Dragons decided to treat dragons differently than any other creature. That's how it is, suck it up or go play a different game. In the future I recommend sending your complaints about official D&D rules here: WotC Customer Support (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=489&p_created=1111777678&p_sid=5W4ewOgi&p_accessibility=0&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHN vcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD03ODEmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9 jYXRzPSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXB lPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1) There is no reason to hijack someone else's thread to post your nonsensical ramblings. -420
Derren S. 09-04-06, 01:40 PM	Hey board posters! Good news! We don't have to worry about any of those monsters with special attacks anymore! They're not really magical, it's just an illusion we all failed our Will saves on! C'mon, it's OK to admit you're wrong. By your logic, the following creatures/items cannot function as described in the MM: Unicorn - "The horn is a +3 magic weapon"; it can also cure light 3/day and cure moderate 1/day "by touching a wounded creature with its horn". Not with its hoof, nor tail, but specifically its horn. Ergo, horn is magical. Pegasus - "Pegasus eggs are worth 2,000 gp each on the open market" Hippogriff - "Hippogriff eggs are worth 2,000 gp apiece on the open market" Griffon - "Griffon eggs are worth 3,500 gp apiece on the open market" Mohrg - Paralyzing Touch (Su) - only works with its tongue. Any creature with a gaze attack - gaze attacks don't work if the creature is blinded Etc. ... Shall we also disregard any of the sources that allow for grafts of various creatures body parts? Undead grafts from Libris Mortis, aberration grafts of all types from Lords of Madness, dragon grafts from Races of the Dragon, etc. Obviously, if we're grafting those body parts, the parts must, in some way, be magical in and of themselves.... And who says gnomes are left out? A friend of mine runs a campaign where gnomes are the main source of food for an entire nation (and I don't mean for their farming skills...). You left out the important part. The unicorn horn power fades after it is removed so its useless. I have nothing against monsters having magical powers, but realize that those powers fade after the monster is killed like with the horn. So when you cut out a Mohrg's tongue you only have a tongue without special powers and when you remove the eyes of a Medusa and put them on the top of a wand you won't get a petrification gun but a wand with a rotting eyeball on top of it. And the eggs are so valuable because you can raise the creatures out of them and not because they have any special properties. And grafts get their power from the enchantments used on them not from the parts alone. They may aid the enchanting process but without magical rituals they are useless.
Arvagor 09-04-06, 04:05 PM	You left out the important part. The unicorn horn power fades after it is removed so its useless.I never said I was removing the horn; I'm simply pointing out a place where the rules show that a specific part of a creature is magical. So when you cut out a Mohrg's tongue you only have a tongue without special powersSo you're saying that I can make a morhg's tongue graft without a mohrg's tongue? Cool, I'll just head down to the local butcher's shop and pick up a beef tongue; it'll save me a lot of trouble of trying to kill one of those nasty mohrgs. And the eggs are so valuable because you can raise the creatures out of them and not because they have any special properties.Where does it say I have to let the eggs hatch? I'm sure there's plenty of spoiled monarchs out there who'd love to to try a nice pegasus omelet...
Derren S. 09-04-06, 04:16 PM	I never said I was removing the horn; I'm simply pointing out a place where the rules show that a specific part of a creature is magical. No, you sholwed that a creature has a magical ability which it manifests with a certain body part, not that the body part itself is magical. Are the hands of a wizard magical because he can shoot fireballs with them? So you're saying that I can make a morhg's tongue graft without a mohrg's tongue? Cool, I'll just head down to the local butcher's shop and pick up a beef tongue; it'll save me a lot of trouble of trying to kill one of those nasty mohrgs. A Mohrg tongue graft doesn't exist to my knowledge. And even if you first need to enchant the tongue to do anything. Alone the tongue is useless. And of course you can create a slotless magical item with the exact same properties then a mohrg tongue graft and glue it to your tongue if you want. Where does it say I have to let the eggs hatch? I'm sure there's plenty of spoiled monarchs out there who'd love to to try a nice pegasus omelet... And? The purpose of the egg and the reason they are sold for that price is to hatch a crature from it. Thats why they are valuable.
Arvagor 09-04-06, 04:51 PM	No, you sholwed that a creature has a magical ability which it manifests with a certain body part, not that the body part itself is magical. "The horn is a +3 magic weapon..." Are we gonna do a Bill Clinton and try to re-define the word "is" now? And if the horn itself were not magical, why would the text point out that "its power fades if removed from the unicorn"? The only thing "its" can refer to is the horn, so we obviously have an example of a core creature where a specific body part is defined as magical. A Mohrg tongue graft doesn't exist to my knowledge.Libris Mortis, page 80, along with a host of other undead grafts, such as a bodak's eye, and vampire's teeth, among others And? The purpose of the egg and the reason they are sold for that price is to hatch a crature from it. Thats why they are valuable. The exact quote from the MM: "Pegasus eggs are worth 2,000 gp each on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp per head. Pegasi mature at the same rate as horses. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a pegasus, which serves a good or neutral master with absolute faithfulness for life." Nowhere in there does it say that the eggs have to be hatched or that they must be sold solely for the purpose of hatching them to raise the young. I'm done; I think the preponderance of evidence for the OP to use dragon parts has been illustrated by more than just myself. Continuing this thread is nothing more than :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Etiquette_Gnome 09-04-06, 05:03 PM	Why is there such vehemence in these arguments? Trying to argue how what the designers were intending with the properties of a dragon's urethra is sort of pointless. The final decision was made with the Draconomicon, where they do statistical information regarding body part usage, thus making it official and final. If you don't think it's fair that I chew on dragon spleen for magical flight, but not a beholder's, then there's an easy response to this. Aside from the easy response of "life is not fair", just look in the DMG in regard to power components and thus decide to have any still-dripping chunk of a monster be of value in magic item creation.
Optimator 09-10-06, 09:16 PM	You should always eat a dragon's heart after you kill it. Game effect or not. To gain its courage. Its tasty, tasty courage.