Dragon (and other) PC Balance Fixes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon (and other) PC Balance Fixes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CrimsonPhoenix
09-19-04, 11:00 PM This has been an issue for a long time, for all monster characters (not just dragons), and I think it's about time to fix it. There are plenty of people who play or have played a monster character, most of which were terribly underpowered due to some argument about "common races" and such. Apparently Wizards made dragons underpowered to encourage the humanoid races and thereby make them more "common". The problem with this approach is simple: PCs are generally considered exceptions. Regardless of whether the party has 1 human and 3 dragons or whatever else, the rest of the campaign world need not be unbalanced racially.

So...It seems right that this power imbalance be solved. The real problem is not the LA, it's the HD. Racial HD are generally going to suck compared to class levels. The LA would be right if all the dragon racial abilities were added to, let's say, a fighter of equal level to what would normally be HD. The LA should correct imbalance overall, not just with racial traits. If you must take 8 HD (gold wyrmling) instead of 8 fighter levels, the HD should negate some of the LA with the justification of "class abilities". That might be a little difficult to understand, but what it basically comes down to is the fact that you are paying for some of those abilities twice: once with the HD as "virtual class abilities" and again as LA.

The only thing I lack to correct this is a strict understanding of what abilities balance out with what. In other words, how many of the dragon's racial abilities should count as "class abilities" for the HD and be subtracted from the LA? This can only be answered by dropping all the LA and abilities (keeping 8 HD) and add some of the abilities a little at a time until it seems balanced with a level 8 fighter. Then determine how much LA the rest of the abilities are worth and add them.

This solution would be a lot faster if someone who knew these power relationships could take an educated guess as to the above proposed changes. Any help in this matter (from past experience playing a non-standard race or whatever else) would be greatly appreciated, both by me and by the many others who are stuck with underpowered characters just to play something flavorful.
Feathercircle
09-20-04, 08:38 AM Soldarin's ECL calculator (http://soldarin.tripod.com/id5.html) does pretty much what you're looking for, and I find it, in general, more balanced than the WotC formulas due to the deliberate underpowering of monster characters you mentioned above. Of course, the best test is always to eyeball the resultant ECL and test it out in play, but it's a good starting point, and the character I created with it hasn't had any balance problems yet, though YMMV.

According to Soldarin's page, the approximate values of a single hit dice of each type, before abilities are factored in, are as follows:

Construct, Ooze, Plants, or Vermin: (.4), due to assumption of no feats or skills until you start taking character levels
Abberration, Animal, Beast, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, or Undead (.5)
Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Shapechager: (.6)
Dragon or Outsider: (.8)

These values assume that you're playing a monster with 2 racial hit dice or greater- single HD monsters take their first hit die as a character level die just like normal humanoids. Note that this only factors in type-dependant traits like BAB, saves, and feats/skills, and not traits like an undead's immunity to mind-affecting abilities- those are factored in later. Note also that all of this is for 3.0, and might not balance exactly for 3.5. Also note, that as with pretty much everything else in D&D, the balancing becomes a little less reliable towards the upper end of the spectrum-so take it with a grain of salt if you ever feel the need to play a pseudonatural paragon tarrasque of legend or something. Also, since it takes the monsters as a whole rather than trying to divvy abilities level by level, it would take a lot of revamping to make it compatable with Savage Species monster classes.

Soldarin's formulas, in my experience tend to produce ECLs that are more closely balanced with the power level of the average party, rather than leaving you as the weakest... though it is, as always, possible for a DM to set up situations where your character's abilities are either nerfed or overpowering. In any case, it won't reduce the ECL of your dragon by all that much- with 12-sided HD, a nice amount of skills and feats, three good saves, and fighter BAB, a hit die of Dragon is practically worth a level in and of itself.

An automated version of the calculator can be found here (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) . If you're having balance issues with WoTC ECLs, try it- it may be exactly what you're looking for.

(Edited to remove awkward typos and an accidental word ommission. :nonono: )
Adrez Nesnsid
09-20-04, 10:25 AM So...It seems right that this power imbalance be solved. The real problem is not the LA, it's the HD. Racial HD are generally going to suck compared to class levels. The LA would be right if all the dragon racial abilities were added to, let's say, a fighter of equal level to what would normally be HD. The LA should correct imbalance overall, not just with racial traits. If you must take 8 HD (gold wyrmling) instead of 8 fighter levels, the HD should negate some of the LA with the justification of "class abilities". That might be a little difficult to understand, but what it basically comes down to is the fact that you are paying for some of those abilities twice: once with the HD as "virtual class abilities" and again as LA.

I totally agree with you! I don't know what the heck they were thinking when they decided that one hit die was worth as much as a class level. There is no way in hell that that makes sense.
CrimsonPhoenix
09-20-04, 06:02 PM I totally agree with you! I don't know what the heck they were thinking when they decided that one hit die was worth as much as a class level. There is no way in hell that that makes sense.

Their justification for that is mentioned in my first post...they do this to encourage playing the "more common" races EVEN THOUGH PCS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE EXCEPTIONS!!! Sorry, that one annoys me :)

BTW That ECL calculator above seems to be better. The LA would come out the same but basically 1 less overall due to racial HD instead of class levels. Should make enough of a difference...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonPhoenix 09-19-04, 11:00 PM	This has been an issue for a long time, for all monster characters (not just dragons), and I think it's about time to fix it. There are plenty of people who play or have played a monster character, most of which were terribly underpowered due to some argument about "common races" and such. Apparently Wizards made dragons underpowered to encourage the humanoid races and thereby make them more "common". The problem with this approach is simple: PCs are generally considered exceptions. Regardless of whether the party has 1 human and 3 dragons or whatever else, the rest of the campaign world need not be unbalanced racially. So...It seems right that this power imbalance be solved. The real problem is not the LA, it's the HD. Racial HD are generally going to suck compared to class levels. The LA would be right if all the dragon racial abilities were added to, let's say, a fighter of equal level to what would normally be HD. The LA should correct imbalance overall, not just with racial traits. If you must take 8 HD (gold wyrmling) instead of 8 fighter levels, the HD should negate some of the LA with the justification of "class abilities". That might be a little difficult to understand, but what it basically comes down to is the fact that you are paying for some of those abilities twice: once with the HD as "virtual class abilities" and again as LA. The only thing I lack to correct this is a strict understanding of what abilities balance out with what. In other words, how many of the dragon's racial abilities should count as "class abilities" for the HD and be subtracted from the LA? This can only be answered by dropping all the LA and abilities (keeping 8 HD) and add some of the abilities a little at a time until it seems balanced with a level 8 fighter. Then determine how much LA the rest of the abilities are worth and add them. This solution would be a lot faster if someone who knew these power relationships could take an educated guess as to the above proposed changes. Any help in this matter (from past experience playing a non-standard race or whatever else) would be greatly appreciated, both by me and by the many others who are stuck with underpowered characters just to play something flavorful.
Feathercircle 09-20-04, 08:38 AM	Soldarin's ECL calculator (http://soldarin.tripod.com/id5.html) does pretty much what you're looking for, and I find it, in general, more balanced than the WotC formulas due to the deliberate underpowering of monster characters you mentioned above. Of course, the best test is always to eyeball the resultant ECL and test it out in play, but it's a good starting point, and the character I created with it hasn't had any balance problems yet, though YMMV. According to Soldarin's page, the approximate values of a single hit dice of each type, before abilities are factored in, are as follows: Construct, Ooze, Plants, or Vermin: (.4), due to assumption of no feats or skills until you start taking character levels Abberration, Animal, Beast, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, or Undead (.5) Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Shapechager: (.6) Dragon or Outsider: (.8) These values assume that you're playing a monster with 2 racial hit dice or greater- single HD monsters take their first hit die as a character level die just like normal humanoids. Note that this only factors in type-dependant traits like BAB, saves, and feats/skills, and not traits like an undead's immunity to mind-affecting abilities- those are factored in later. Note also that all of this is for 3.0, and might not balance exactly for 3.5. Also note, that as with pretty much everything else in D&D, the balancing becomes a little less reliable towards the upper end of the spectrum-so take it with a grain of salt if you ever feel the need to play a pseudonatural paragon tarrasque of legend or something. Also, since it takes the monsters as a whole rather than trying to divvy abilities level by level, it would take a lot of revamping to make it compatable with Savage Species monster classes. Soldarin's formulas, in my experience tend to produce ECLs that are more closely balanced with the power level of the average party, rather than leaving you as the weakest... though it is, as always, possible for a DM to set up situations where your character's abilities are either nerfed or overpowering. In any case, it won't reduce the ECL of your dragon by all that much- with 12-sided HD, a nice amount of skills and feats, three good saves, and fighter BAB, a hit die of Dragon is practically worth a level in and of itself. An automated version of the calculator can be found here (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) . If you're having balance issues with WoTC ECLs, try it- it may be exactly what you're looking for. (Edited to remove awkward typos and an accidental word ommission. :nonono: )
Adrez Nesnsid 09-20-04, 10:25 AM	So...It seems right that this power imbalance be solved. The real problem is not the LA, it's the HD. Racial HD are generally going to suck compared to class levels. The LA would be right if all the dragon racial abilities were added to, let's say, a fighter of equal level to what would normally be HD. The LA should correct imbalance overall, not just with racial traits. If you must take 8 HD (gold wyrmling) instead of 8 fighter levels, the HD should negate some of the LA with the justification of "class abilities". That might be a little difficult to understand, but what it basically comes down to is the fact that you are paying for some of those abilities twice: once with the HD as "virtual class abilities" and again as LA. I totally agree with you! I don't know what the heck they were thinking when they decided that one hit die was worth as much as a class level. There is no way in hell that that makes sense.
CrimsonPhoenix 09-20-04, 06:02 PM	I totally agree with you! I don't know what the heck they were thinking when they decided that one hit die was worth as much as a class level. There is no way in hell that that makes sense. Their justification for that is mentioned in my first post...they do this to encourage playing the "more common" races EVEN THOUGH PCS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE EXCEPTIONS!!! Sorry, that one annoys me :) BTW That ECL calculator above seems to be better. The LA would come out the same but basically 1 less overall due to racial HD instead of class levels. Should make enough of a difference...