Dragon can cast Miracle as 9th ARCANE spell,right? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon can cast Miracle as 9th ARCANE spell,right? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Intention
10-26-05, 06:42 AM dragon have inherent spellcasting ability,and they can cast CLERIC spell as sorcerer arcane spell______EVEN THEY AREN'T WORSHIP ANY DEITY OR POWER.

huhhhh...........the Miracle.....pray to a deity or other power.

HOW THEY DO IT?
SALDAR
10-26-05, 07:43 AM They don't.
From the MM pg 69, under spells:
"A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score."
Only some can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Check the individual dragon descriptions.
mythSSK
10-26-05, 08:03 AM The same way clerics who don't worship a god do, I suppose.
Intention
10-26-05, 08:41 AM They don't.
From the MM pg 69, under spells:
"A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score."
Only some can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Check the individual dragon descriptions.

"Only SOME can"?

are you sure?

The same way clerics who don't worship a god do, I suppose.

But they worship a Power(Law,Chaos,Good,Evil,Magic,Knowledg e,etc.).they still are normal clerics.
jasper
10-26-05, 09:07 AM They are excepts to the rule. As some have mention Dragons generally only cast arcana magic and a few specific divine spells. However just assume it has the affects of the "Miracle" spell but dragons call it something else.
rampant
10-26-05, 12:38 PM simple they are dragons people pray to them for miracles do you think they don't keep a few for themselves
Wyrd Bearer
10-26-05, 02:07 PM They are excepts to the rule. As some have mention Dragons generally only cast arcana magic and a few specific divine spells. However just assume it has the affects of the "Miracle" spell but dragons call it something else.Yes, something like will of the anscestors or something similar.
mythSSK
10-26-05, 07:30 PM Yes, something like will of the anscestors or something similar.
Or "I am a dragon, reality, so do what I say or else."
obrysii
10-26-05, 07:55 PM They don't.
From the MM pg 69, under spells:
"A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score."
Only some can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Check the individual dragon descriptions.

Correct. Gold Dragons and Red Dragons, off the top of my head, can cast all cleric spells as arcane spells. Including Miracle.
syrinth
10-26-05, 08:11 PM I could have sworn that it was only good dragons.......
Wyrd Bearer
10-26-05, 08:32 PM Or "I am a dragon, reality, so do what I say or else."Hah hah

I could have sworn that it was only good dragons.......Don't forget that the best of all dragons, the blues, have access to clerical spells too.
was_fired
10-26-05, 08:52 PM Cleric casting dragons:

Evil: Blue, Red

Good: All
Intention
10-26-05, 09:27 PM Correct. Gold Dragons and Red Dragons, off the top of my head, can cast all cleric spells as arcane spells. Including Miracle.

If a dragon don't worship any deity or power,HOW it to use Miracle spell?pray to itself?
SALDAR
10-27-05, 12:17 AM If a dragon don't worship any deity or power,HOW it to use Miracle spell?pray to itself?
Because the dragon is casting it as an arcane spell. Arcane spells do not require a diety for their power so no prayers needed.

Also, before someone goes there, since they cast them as a sorcerer does (innate ability) there are no written forms of them to be copied by wizards into spellbooks. Dragons have this ability, not all spellcasters.
obrysii
10-27-05, 12:23 AM If a dragon don't worship any deity or power,HOW it to use Miracle spell?pray to itself?

A cleric devoted to a cause, and not a deity, can cast Miracle. Why would a dragon be any different?
Intention
10-27-05, 02:30 AM A cleric devoted to a cause, and not a deity, can cast Miracle. Why would a dragon be any different?

But they still need PRAY to a deity/power/cause.

What?Favored Soul?huhhh.........
"Unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity. "
mythSSK
10-27-05, 02:51 AM No they don't. Arcane spells aren't received through prayer. Divine ones are. Dragons cast miracle as an arcane spell.

A dragon who has a high enough amount of innate power to call miracles into being is very nearly a divine being in its own right. They cause a miracle by enforcing their will upon the universe, and the universe has no choice but to acquiesce... as I mentioned earlier, it works like this: "I am a dragon, reality, so do what I say or else."
Grug the Just
10-27-05, 03:04 AM Its easy, the spell is no longer divine therefore it has no link to any deity or source of power other than the dragon itself. The dragon requests a miracle from itself, then promptly allows it,then the DM determines the result as per normal. And we're done.

Also, I don't see specifically where in the individual description it states whether they use the cleric list as well or not.
mythSSK
10-27-05, 03:08 AM Also, I don't see specifically where in the individual description it states whether they use the cleric list as well or not.
For the dragons that can, it's at the bottom of the 2nd table that shows their abilities by age category. The column for their sorcerer caster level is marked with an asterisk, and at the bottom it says "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the ___, ___ and ___ domains as arcane spells."
rampant
10-27-05, 03:21 AM glad my dm never learned how to play dragons

ugh think about it a blue with cleric buffs
mythSSK
10-27-05, 04:17 AM glad my dm never learned how to play dragons

ugh think about it a blue with cleric buffs
Heh, there's a reason why it is often said that if an encounter with a mature dragon isn't a TPK, your DM isn't playing it right.

Even the young ones that haven't developed sorcerous casting yet are dangerous. I ran a climatic encounter a few weeks ago with an Young Blue Dragon (I love blues, my fav!), against a party with an average level of 5 (Young blue is CR 6)... it carved up the entire party, killing one PC outright and greviously wounding the rest before the party warlock took it out of comission while it was low on hp and retreating (lucky shot... bloody long range eldritch blast invocation...).
warlockco
10-27-05, 07:40 AM If a dragon don't worship any deity or power,HOW it to use Miracle spell?pray to itself?

Miracle and Wish for all intents and purposes are the exact same spell.
Tenzhi
10-28-05, 03:20 AM But they still need PRAY to a deity/power/cause.

Not at all. As per the class description, not all Clerics "pray" for spells - some of them meditate. Yet they can all potentially cast Miracle despite the part where it says "or the power you pray to for spells" in the spell description.

My clerics tend to list their deity as "Self" on the character sheet. I imagine that, if a dragon needed to be concerned with such things in regards to its Cleric spells, it would probably have a similar deity.
LordofNightmares
10-28-05, 03:57 AM The most logical explanation I can think of, is that a Dragon's Arcane Miracle is just a Wish spell that functions just VERY slightly differently.
Intention
10-28-05, 10:21 AM The most logical explanation I can think of, is that a Dragon's Arcane Miracle is just a Wish spell that functions just VERY slightly differently.

5000XP.
Slayer_5
10-28-05, 02:58 PM Does this mean there are arcane scrolls of miracle kicking about?
Wolf72
10-28-05, 07:09 PM The most logical explanation I can think of, is that a Dragon's Arcane Miracle is just a Wish spell that functions just VERY slightly differently.

They're dragons ... and any dragon capable of casting 9th lvl spells is going to be very powerful.

I think the greatest drawback is that limit of spells known.

yup, that's right nothing new to add here, move along :)
Dartanel
10-29-05, 01:37 AM Does this mean there are arcane scrolls of miracle kicking about?

Theoretically, yes.
However, unless you are a dragon of the appropriate type to get them on you spell list, you need UMD to activate them. And you most certainly cannot scribe them into any spell book.
The Abominable Darkling
10-29-05, 10:51 AM I can't believe that no one has mentioned that scion of uber-twinkiness, the Shadow Dragon! It too can cast cleric spells!!!
elven warriorXX
10-29-05, 12:19 PM In my CS dragons use Draconic magic which is nether Divine or Arcana. Druids also in my CS use Natural magic which does not need godic worship to gains spells as it has some Divine spells and Elemental spells. So druids can worship a god but they do not gains spells from the God. Same thing with dragons.
Wyrd Bearer
10-29-05, 12:25 PM I can't believe that no one has mentioned that scion of uber-twinkiness, the Shadow Dragon! It too can cast cleric spells!!!
Reply With QuoteTrue, though not all of us have access to the shadow dragon, so we've been discussing the core dragons here. If we go outside of core, there are like 80+ different types of these gigantic newts and I'm sure that many of them can cast certain divine spells.

(Personally, IMC, I've gotten rid of ALL dragons on the campaign world and the only dragon that will show up is an umbral blue dragon from another plane of existence. It's blue because they're the best and its umbral because... um... being a dragon isn't enough, it also has to be undead and incorporeal for more PC killing fun.)
Vanigo
10-29-05, 03:16 PM Miracle and Wish for all intents and purposes are the exact same spell.
Bull. Miracle is vastly superior; most uses of it don't cost any experience.
Verelor
10-30-05, 08:13 PM Let's not even get into the fact that a CLERIC that doesn't even follow a particular diety is lamer than a brick.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Intention 10-26-05, 06:42 AM	dragon have inherent spellcasting ability,and they can cast CLERIC spell as sorcerer arcane spell______EVEN THEY AREN'T WORSHIP ANY DEITY OR POWER. huhhhh...........the Miracle.....pray to a deity or other power. HOW THEY DO IT?
SALDAR 10-26-05, 07:43 AM	They don't. From the MM pg 69, under spells: "A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score." Only some can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Check the individual dragon descriptions.
mythSSK 10-26-05, 08:03 AM	The same way clerics who don't worship a god do, I suppose.
Intention 10-26-05, 08:41 AM	They don't. From the MM pg 69, under spells: "A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score." Only some can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Check the individual dragon descriptions. "Only SOME can"? are you sure? The same way clerics who don't worship a god do, I suppose. But they worship a Power(Law,Chaos,Good,Evil,Magic,Knowledg e,etc.).they still are normal clerics.
jasper 10-26-05, 09:07 AM	They are excepts to the rule. As some have mention Dragons generally only cast arcana magic and a few specific divine spells. However just assume it has the affects of the "Miracle" spell but dragons call it something else.
rampant 10-26-05, 12:38 PM	simple they are dragons people pray to them for miracles do you think they don't keep a few for themselves
Wyrd Bearer 10-26-05, 02:07 PM	They are excepts to the rule. As some have mention Dragons generally only cast arcana magic and a few specific divine spells. However just assume it has the affects of the "Miracle" spell but dragons call it something else.Yes, something like will of the anscestors or something similar.
mythSSK 10-26-05, 07:30 PM	Yes, something like will of the anscestors or something similar. Or "I am a dragon, reality, so do what I say or else."
obrysii 10-26-05, 07:55 PM	They don't. From the MM pg 69, under spells: "A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score." Only some can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Check the individual dragon descriptions. Correct. Gold Dragons and Red Dragons, off the top of my head, can cast all cleric spells as arcane spells. Including Miracle.
syrinth 10-26-05, 08:11 PM	I could have sworn that it was only good dragons.......
Wyrd Bearer 10-26-05, 08:32 PM	Or "I am a dragon, reality, so do what I say or else."Hah hah I could have sworn that it was only good dragons.......Don't forget that the best of all dragons, the blues, have access to clerical spells too.
was_fired 10-26-05, 08:52 PM	Cleric casting dragons: Evil: Blue, Red Good: All
Intention 10-26-05, 09:27 PM	Correct. Gold Dragons and Red Dragons, off the top of my head, can cast all cleric spells as arcane spells. Including Miracle. If a dragon don't worship any deity or power,HOW it to use Miracle spell?pray to itself?
SALDAR 10-27-05, 12:17 AM	If a dragon don't worship any deity or power,HOW it to use Miracle spell?pray to itself? Because the dragon is casting it as an arcane spell. Arcane spells do not require a diety for their power so no prayers needed. Also, before someone goes there, since they cast them as a sorcerer does (innate ability) there are no written forms of them to be copied by wizards into spellbooks. Dragons have this ability, not all spellcasters.
obrysii 10-27-05, 12:23 AM	If a dragon don't worship any deity or power,HOW it to use Miracle spell?pray to itself? A cleric devoted to a cause, and not a deity, can cast Miracle. Why would a dragon be any different?
Intention 10-27-05, 02:30 AM	A cleric devoted to a cause, and not a deity, can cast Miracle. Why would a dragon be any different? But they still need PRAY to a deity/power/cause. What?Favored Soul?huhhh......... "Unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity. "
mythSSK 10-27-05, 02:51 AM	No they don't. Arcane spells aren't received through prayer. Divine ones are. Dragons cast miracle as an arcane spell. A dragon who has a high enough amount of innate power to call miracles into being is very nearly a divine being in its own right. They cause a miracle by enforcing their will upon the universe, and the universe has no choice but to acquiesce... as I mentioned earlier, it works like this: "I am a dragon, reality, so do what I say or else."
Grug the Just 10-27-05, 03:04 AM	Its easy, the spell is no longer divine therefore it has no link to any deity or source of power other than the dragon itself. The dragon requests a miracle from itself, then promptly allows it,then the DM determines the result as per normal. And we're done. Also, I don't see specifically where in the individual description it states whether they use the cleric list as well or not.
mythSSK 10-27-05, 03:08 AM	Also, I don't see specifically where in the individual description it states whether they use the cleric list as well or not. For the dragons that can, it's at the bottom of the 2nd table that shows their abilities by age category. The column for their sorcerer caster level is marked with an asterisk, and at the bottom it says "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the ___, ___ and ___ domains as arcane spells."
rampant 10-27-05, 03:21 AM	glad my dm never learned how to play dragons ugh think about it a blue with cleric buffs
mythSSK 10-27-05, 04:17 AM	glad my dm never learned how to play dragons ugh think about it a blue with cleric buffs Heh, there's a reason why it is often said that if an encounter with a mature dragon isn't a TPK, your DM isn't playing it right. Even the young ones that haven't developed sorcerous casting yet are dangerous. I ran a climatic encounter a few weeks ago with an Young Blue Dragon (I love blues, my fav!), against a party with an average level of 5 (Young blue is CR 6)... it carved up the entire party, killing one PC outright and greviously wounding the rest before the party warlock took it out of comission while it was low on hp and retreating (lucky shot... bloody long range eldritch blast invocation...).
warlockco 10-27-05, 07:40 AM	If a dragon don't worship any deity or power,HOW it to use Miracle spell?pray to itself? Miracle and Wish for all intents and purposes are the exact same spell.
Tenzhi 10-28-05, 03:20 AM	But they still need PRAY to a deity/power/cause. Not at all. As per the class description, not all Clerics "pray" for spells - some of them meditate. Yet they can all potentially cast Miracle despite the part where it says "or the power you pray to for spells" in the spell description. My clerics tend to list their deity as "Self" on the character sheet. I imagine that, if a dragon needed to be concerned with such things in regards to its Cleric spells, it would probably have a similar deity.
LordofNightmares 10-28-05, 03:57 AM	The most logical explanation I can think of, is that a Dragon's Arcane Miracle is just a Wish spell that functions just VERY slightly differently.
Intention 10-28-05, 10:21 AM	The most logical explanation I can think of, is that a Dragon's Arcane Miracle is just a Wish spell that functions just VERY slightly differently. 5000XP.
Slayer_5 10-28-05, 02:58 PM	Does this mean there are arcane scrolls of miracle kicking about?
Wolf72 10-28-05, 07:09 PM	The most logical explanation I can think of, is that a Dragon's Arcane Miracle is just a Wish spell that functions just VERY slightly differently. They're dragons ... and any dragon capable of casting 9th lvl spells is going to be very powerful. I think the greatest drawback is that limit of spells known. yup, that's right nothing new to add here, move along :)
Dartanel 10-29-05, 01:37 AM	Does this mean there are arcane scrolls of miracle kicking about? Theoretically, yes. However, unless you are a dragon of the appropriate type to get them on you spell list, you need UMD to activate them. And you most certainly cannot scribe them into any spell book.
The Abominable Darkling 10-29-05, 10:51 AM	I can't believe that no one has mentioned that scion of uber-twinkiness, the Shadow Dragon! It too can cast cleric spells!!!
elven warriorXX 10-29-05, 12:19 PM	In my CS dragons use Draconic magic which is nether Divine or Arcana. Druids also in my CS use Natural magic which does not need godic worship to gains spells as it has some Divine spells and Elemental spells. So druids can worship a god but they do not gains spells from the God. Same thing with dragons.
Wyrd Bearer 10-29-05, 12:25 PM	I can't believe that no one has mentioned that scion of uber-twinkiness, the Shadow Dragon! It too can cast cleric spells!!! Reply With QuoteTrue, though not all of us have access to the shadow dragon, so we've been discussing the core dragons here. If we go outside of core, there are like 80+ different types of these gigantic newts and I'm sure that many of them can cast certain divine spells. (Personally, IMC, I've gotten rid of ALL dragons on the campaign world and the only dragon that will show up is an umbral blue dragon from another plane of existence. It's blue because they're the best and its umbral because... um... being a dragon isn't enough, it also has to be undead and incorporeal for more PC killing fun.)
Vanigo 10-29-05, 03:16 PM	Miracle and Wish for all intents and purposes are the exact same spell. Bull. Miracle is vastly superior; most uses of it don't cost any experience.
Verelor 10-30-05, 08:13 PM	Let's not even get into the fact that a CLERIC that doesn't even follow a particular diety is lamer than a brick.