Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ank 11-24-06, 11:45 PM	Just tonight I passed about EIGHT questions exclusively about dragons. It would be much easier to simplify these into one thread so here you are! I tried this once before without success, but maybe this time we'll get some hits. Post here and I'll do my best to comment/answer all the posts. Thank you. :dragon:
obrysii 11-24-06, 11:48 PM	So you ... want us to ask questions about dragons?
Hollow_World 11-25-06, 02:48 AM	so where are the questions?
ank 11-25-06, 03:06 PM	Yes, please post YOUR questions and comments here. I want to help people with problems but I cant end up going to 10 different threads every time I log on.
Kothardarastrix 11-25-06, 09:32 PM	Someone obviously has an overinflated ego, note that I'm only saying that as: Kothardarastrix, Son and Heir to Garyx the Cleanser of Worlds, and your future Red Dragon Patron God.
obrysii 11-25-06, 11:19 PM	Yes, please post YOUR questions and comments here. I want to help people with problems but I cant end up going to 10 different threads every time I log on. Ok. If you are an "invictus" Red dragon (ie, Age Catagory 13+) who has secretly built up an empire over the past two thousand years through the eradication of all knowledge of magic (outside of your own needs), but you are nearing your twilight and undeath is beneath you, what would you do?
Kothardarastrix 11-26-06, 12:38 AM	Find Epic Level encounters and start grinding for xp to get your 12 levels of Dragon Ascendant... my scales are too beautiful to not be on me, OR be bitten by a vampire 1 size category smaller to 1 size category larger and become a Dragon Vampire. Alternatively you could worship me, become entirely inducted into my Cult...err... religion, and I'll give you glimpse inside my mind, and live with the blessing that is my madness for a short while; couple centuries, if you survive and do not beg for mercy, you will be made immortal and one of my proxies.
obrysii 11-26-06, 12:39 AM	Find Epic Level encounters and start grinding for xp to get your 12 levels of Dragon Ascendant... my scales are too beautiful to not be on me, OR be bitten by a vampire 1 size category smaller to 1 size category larger and become a Dragon Vampire. Alternatively you could worship me, become entirely inducted into my Cult...err... religion, and I'll give you glimpse inside my mind, and live with the blessing that is my madness for a short while; couple centuries, if you survive and do not beg for mercy, you will be made immortal and one of my proxies. I like where you're going, but I was thinking developing an epic spell to True Mind Switch with the Tarrasque instantaneously.
Kothardarastrix 11-26-06, 12:45 AM	I like where you're going, but I was thinking developing an epic spell to True Mind Switch with the Tarrasque instantaneously. :( But... then you aren't a Dragon anymore, and I'll lose all respect for you. That makes me sad. :weep:
ank 11-26-06, 11:08 AM	Im not quite sure whether to laugh, stare in stunned silence, or do one of these:OMG! An epic mind switch spell with the tarrasque would be an intrigueing idea, but I simply don't see it happening. Firstly, you would have to track down the legendary lair of the tarraque, then cast the spell and hope it works. Supposing it does, you then destroy your own former body and sleep for pretty much the rest of your life; not the most glamorous life for a dragon. So, either "grind" your way through the epic levels of divine ascendant, use a mind switch spell on a much younger red dragon (your magic would remain and protect you from userpers), or you can try what Ashardalon failed to accomplish: an assualt of the Bastion of Souls. Incidentally, if Garx is your father how do you propose to take his place? He is immortal. Besides, given his high prestige im not sure he'll go easily.
obrysii 11-26-06, 11:36 AM	Im not quite sure whether to laugh, stare in stunned silence, or do one of these:OMG! An epic mind switch spell with the tarrasque would be an intrigueing idea, but I simply don't see it happening. Firstly, you would have to track down the legendary lair of the tarraque, then cast the spell and hope it works. Supposing it does, you then destroy your own former body and sleep for pretty much the rest of your life; not the most glamorous life for a dragon. Ok. So...legendary monster. Not too hard to find for a 2,000+ year old dragon that has all the resources needed at his disposal. And where exactly does it say that a Tarrasque MUST sleep? Indeed, there is nothing RAW about it; only the flavor-text of the Tarrasque (ie, it's a habit, not a physical requirement).
Kothardarastrix 11-26-06, 08:09 PM	Incidentally, if Garx is your father how do you propose to take his place? He is immortal. Besides, given his high prestige im not sure he'll go easily. Even God's die eventually, by other Gods of course, and I can wait, I'm a Quasi-Deity. However if it comes down to it, you might like to know that I have 300 HD from assorted Prestige Classes, and should it come down to it Bahamut and Tiamat only have 53 and 49 HD, respectively, and they're considered greater than he. Should I have to fight my father he will be troublesome no doubt, but I will rend him intwain.
obrysii 11-26-06, 10:04 PM	Even God's die eventually, by other Gods of course, and I can wait, I'm a Quasi-Deity. However if it comes down to it, you might like to know that I have 300 HD from assorted Prestige Classes, and should it come down to it Bahamut and Tiamat only have 53 and 49 HD, respectively, and they're considered greater than he. Should I have to fight my father he will be troublesome no doubt, but I will rend him intwain. That's....fantastic. So this is coming down to a "Who can say a bigger number?" Tadasi (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=396861) is still stronger, regardless of the number of HD you have.
Kothardarastrix 11-26-06, 10:20 PM	That's....fantastic. So this is coming down to a "Who can say a bigger number?" No... but that won't stop you from percieving it as such, besides, I don't see what your argument has to do with my ascension, as I said me fighting my father is a worst case scenario and only if I have to, I'm immortal as well, I can wait for him to be slain and then assume power.
ank 11-27-06, 06:24 PM	I dont see how it isn't a physical requirement. There is no creature alive (outside of a depressed human) that call sleeping a hobby. It seems to be a form of hybernation that, although it can be staved off, will eventually overcome the creature in question. Besides, if we want to go off of what is RAW and what is just flavor text, we could theorize that there are in fact twenty tarrasques running around, which explains how "one" creature reaches fantastic locales. This would, however, make it easier to track one down (lol). Wonder why other players have been avoiding this post thus far. Well, since you are all on the topic of godhood brought up by Kothardarastrix I have always wondered: all the gods listed in the DnD books are either demi-gods, lesser gods, or intermediate gods. Therefore, where is the "highgod" that is loosly refered to in a few places (ex. dragonlance's The Legend of Huma)
obrysii 11-27-06, 09:35 PM	I dont see how it isn't a physical requirement. I mean, there is no reason that the Tarrasque must sleep most of it's life.
Kothardarastrix 11-28-06, 04:43 AM	Well, since you are all on the topic of godhood brought up by Kothardarastrix I have always wondered: all the gods listed in the DnD books are either demi-gods, lesser gods, or intermediate gods. Therefore, where is the "highgod" that is loosly refered to in a few places (ex. dragonlance's The Legend of Huma) The high God of Dragons? That'd be Io, an Intermediate Deity. Although I think each god should be rated independant of other Pantheons, thus Io should be a Greater Diety like all the other Creator Gods, and head of their pantheons.
obrysii 11-28-06, 10:02 AM	The high God of Dragons? That'd be Io, an Intermediate Deity. Although I think each god should be rated independant of other Pantheons, thus Io should be a Greater Diety like all the other Creator Gods, and head of their pantheons. Yeah. I always wondered why Io was only an Intermediate.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-28-06, 06:19 PM	Anyone find it odd that while most good-evil mirror creatures in d&d create the 'good is better than evil' paradigm (celestials v. fiends, metallics v. chromatics), tiamat is obviously more powerful than Bahamut?
Kothardarastrix 11-28-06, 06:57 PM	Do you mean stat-wise or forces wise, cause either way you'd be wrong, Bahamut has a good number more hit die than Tiamat (HD are to Dragons as milk is to Mr T); and Tiamat teaches a philosophy that is detrimental to the much more numerous humanoid races, thus Bahamut can afford to have weaker and lesser minions since he has drastically more allies. Yeah. I always wondered why Io was only an Intermediate. I modify the Dragon Pantheon in my Campaigns: Io jumps up to Greater Deity, Bahamut and Tiamat are Intermediates, and then I modify the rest into Patron Gods of certain Dragon Colors (Falazure for Blacks, Garyx for Reds, Lendys for Silvers, etc.)
ank 11-29-06, 10:33 PM	Tiamat has plenty of humanoid races working for her; the most prominent of these being kobalds. Other races include troglidites, goblinoids, lizardfolk, etc. Bahamut has the good humanoid races working for him, but most of them (ex. dwarves, halflings, humans, elves, etc.) have their own patron dieties and many are in fact fearful of any dragon at all. Bahamut may have a larger pool, but the draft rate is about 2% or so. Tiamat has a smaller pool with about a 65% percent draft rate, and that doesn't even include her twisted spawn (like redspawn berserkers which spawn three to an egg). I would actually contend that has more followers, it's just that Bahamut's are hardier and more motivated (eternal love and devotion are better that fear/hunger in the long run.) Furthermore, even if bahamut has slightly more hit dice, tiamat has more heads and a tail to make attacks with, so they can be considered pretty much equal on a god v. god level, so long as heralds stay out of it. And please, dont bring heralds into this, i do NOT want to decide which is better: Astilibor or five great wyrms.
Kothardarastrix 11-29-06, 10:40 PM	You forget, whilst Kobolds are themselves Lawful Evil, they'd ditch Kurtulmak like a bad habit if Bahamut or ANY True Dragon came recruiting. Not to mention adventurers tend to kill evil dragon and dragonspawn of their own accord, unknowingly helping Bahamut; however, followers of evil deities don't actively search out good dragons most of the time.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-29-06, 11:07 PM	Furthermore, even if bahamut has slightly more hit dice, tiamat has more heads and a tail to make attacks with... This was what I was going for. Yeah, Bahamut would naturally have an extra HD and a couple extra combat bonuses. Tiamat on the other hand has 5 heads which can all breathe or bite at the same time, in addition to her stinger. I'm not concerned enough about the issue to playtest it, but if I had to put money on one of the two I'd bet on Tiamat.
anki 11-30-06, 04:19 AM	There is no creature alive (outside of a depressed human) that call sleeping a hobby. I sleep 16 hours a day so i guess i can call it a hobby. Anywho,yes,Tiamat has a larger recruit ratio but lacks quality,unlike the folowers of Bahamut who maybe fewer but most of them(in my expirience) are adventurers who make a hobby out of keeping Tiamats flock overpopulated.
Derren S. 11-30-06, 07:42 AM	Yeah. I always wondered why Io was only an Intermediate. Because some bookauthors don't know what they are talking about.
obrysii 11-30-06, 09:43 AM	Because some bookauthors don't know what they are talking about. I mean, it even so much as says that "Io is the creator" (paraphrased). But then it goes to say that he's just an intermediate.
Critical_Failure 11-30-06, 10:58 AM	i need a name for a red dragon, just for a character backround, nothing else can you lot help?
Derren S. 11-30-06, 11:54 AM	I mean, it even so much as says that "Io is the creator" (paraphrased). But then it goes to say that he's just an intermediate. Its because the designers thought that "dragons have lost much influence in the world and thus the gods are weak". But even before all the dragonfall war, spawn of Tiamat etc. came up this was nonsense as this doesn't influences the power of gods. And now with Bahamut and Tiamat beeing one of the most active deities in D&D this is laughable.
obrysii 11-30-06, 12:39 PM	i need a name for a red dragon, just for a character backround, nothing else can you lot help? Azagotharoth
forrestfire15 11-30-06, 01:43 PM	if you are using the dragon magazine dragon monster classes what happens when the dragon get old enough to get more powerful? such as a 20th level silver dragon (juvinile or young, i dont remember) that reaches 200 years old thanks in advance
Critical_Failure 11-30-06, 02:00 PM	Azagotharoth anyone espcially famous or is it just one you came up with sounds impressive either way (how would you pronounce that?)
obrysii 11-30-06, 02:18 PM	I just made it up. It's the BBEG of my "modern" campaign. I pronounce it "As-a-GOTH-a-ROTH" For a fire-based dragon, Xuilcoatl is also quite fitting. It is the Serpent god of the Desert in Aztec mythology.
Doom_Linnorm 11-30-06, 04:26 PM	I dun care what anything remotly statwise says. Tiamat>Bahamut due to sheer coolness. Metalic dragons need a god! What metal should we use? Gold? We already have gold dragons! Mithril? Lame! Adamantine? Lamer! Platinum? Still lame but I gues it'll have to do. Chromatic dragons need a god! How about one that combines all their features into one? Like a head with a ludicrous amount of horns, frills, hornlet clusters etc etc? How about pulling the old Hydra-scheme? Many headed dragon? Lame!!... wait a second... lets... you there! Artist, draw us a five headed dragon, each head one of the chromatic colors. -later- Holy smokes! Wow! What the?! .....Gentlemen, we've hit the jackpot of cool, and she's scaly!
Tequila_Sunrise 11-30-06, 09:04 PM	I dun care what anything remotly statwise says. Tiamat>Bahamut due to sheer coolness. I'm glad that there are other gamers who aren't obsessed with stats. I will disagree with you about which one is cooler though; solid silver (I mean, uh, "platinum") is so much more elegant than a mishmash of colors. Clown colors = laughable; clown colors + brown = ugly + laughable. And those hydra heads, I mean c'mon how does she not topple over every morning when she gets out of bed?
ank 12-01-06, 10:07 AM	As anki said, yes, Bahamut has the better quality overall whilst Tiamat has the larger numbers hands-down. I would think that for now they are pretty evenly matched. As to the kobald recruition, they certainly would drop Kurtalmak like a bad habit, but not for Bahamut. It says directly in the races of the dragon that they treat dragonborn with respect, but that is where iit ends. The absolute best a kebald can be is a nuetral cleric of Io, in which case he will side with neither. Also, Tiamat may be cooler simply from the artists renditions and the 5-headed deal, but Bahamut will always have the better philosophy and setup for an adventurer in the end (although the level 15+ followers of Tiamat have it pretty good I would think). P.S. It's good to see so many new faces out there (the thread got to page two: yay!), another topic you guys have? Because sooner or later this one will expire
Kothardarastrix 12-01-06, 10:56 AM	As to the kobald recruition, they certainly would drop Kurtalmak like a bad habit, but not for Bahamut. It says directly in the races of the dragon that they treat dragonborn with respect, but that is where iit ends. The absolute best a kebald can be is a nuetral cleric of Io, in which case he will side with neither. The you are apparently illiterate, I said Dragon not Dragonborn, it also says in RotD that they put Dragons before Kurtulmak.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-01-06, 02:22 PM	P.S. It's good to see so many new faces out there (the thread got to page two: yay!), another topic you guys have? Because sooner or later this one will expire Well I'd like to give my thanks to the game designers for statting out ten different dragon progressions in MM. A few months back I decided to create generic CR progressions for each monster type from 1-20, and the dragons were easiest because there are sooo many examples. If anyone is interested I can post my 'generic CR 1-20 true dragon' here.
ank 12-02-06, 09:27 PM	The you are apparently illiterate, I said Dragon not Dragonborn, it also says in RotD that they put Dragons before Kurtulmak. I am exquisitely literate, to this sense you are simply being illogical. Firstly, I know (and knew) exactly what you were saying. Secondly, a dragonborn is an embasy of bahamut and is the living prove of bahamuts acceptance. Kobalds also, as you say, put dragons before Kurtulmak. Therefore, if a dragonborn walks into their midst with the message to kill half of dragonkind the end result will not be good, especially since they associate more with evil dragonkind. Thus, kobalds have to open door to bahamut exept through exemplary examples of his dragon worshipers. As to dragon-kobald recruiting, as i've said evil dragons will do an equal amount at least (most likely more) recruiting than good dragons. Also, even though a dragon may be highly revered and respected by kobalds doesn't assure a conversion. For example, an evangelist of Pelor could walk into a typical town and expect to be treated well and honesty, but his message will not be heard and exepted by all those you admire him.
Critical_Failure 12-03-06, 01:21 PM	cheers, now a more imortant question how old go half dragons(humns) get to, and do they have hair, how much heavier is sccale than kin, do they get mor hight from draconic heratage, etc?
casiel 12-03-06, 09:19 PM	My question is about dracoliches and their phylacteries. Once a dracolich's essence is sucked back into its phylactery, what is the range with which it can possess a reptilian or dragon corpse?
Kothardarastrix 12-04-06, 09:28 AM	cheers, now a more imortant question how old go half dragons(humns) get to, and do they have hair, how much heavier is sccale than kin, do they get mor hight from draconic heratage, etc? The only one that I can verify is that Half-Dragons don't have hair, or at least no 3.0/.5 illustration has shown them with such. My question is about dracoliches and their phylacteries. Once a dracolich's essence is sucked back into its phylactery, what is the range with which it can possess a reptilian or dragon corpse? 90 feet.
Critical_Failure 12-04-06, 09:36 AM	thanks, but do they all have horns? if they do, would a half red dragon be able tp wear a hood or helmet?
Kothardarastrix 12-04-06, 11:33 AM	Some have horns or Frills (Sometimes both) and some have neither, that's an aesthetic choice for the player. However, the horns and frills shouldn't cause a problem with hoods, and whilst the part of my brain that demands realism says they should have to modify helmets and caps, I overall think that's a decision the DM needs to make. But overall there's no rule that say it needs to be resized or modified to fit you, none that I can find at least.
IdleAltruism 12-04-06, 04:37 PM	Ok. If you are an "invictus" Red dragon (ie, Age Catagory 13+) who has secretly built up an empire over the past two thousand years through the eradication of all knowledge of magic (outside of your own needs), but you are nearing your twilight and undeath is beneath you, what would you do? Take a look at Faerun. Many spellcasting indiviuals there have extened their own life with wishes. An epic spell could extend its life. Some of the faerun dragons had some interesting ways of becoming immortal.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-04-06, 06:33 PM	cheers, now a more imortant question how old go half dragons(humns) get to, and do they have hair, how much heavier is sccale than kin, do they get mor hight from draconic heratage, etc? Flavor stuff is always up to the DM and/or player.
ank 12-04-06, 09:32 PM	The half-dragon age issue has always been an issue with me too, along with draconic creatures, I personally would rule that you should use the dagonborn progression as they are really the only realistic draconic base to go on (spellscales and kobalds not being regular draconic creatures in this sense). Theirs follows a progression of 200 for middle age, 300 for old, and 400 for venerable. The races of the dragon lightly touches on the fact that half-dragons and draconic creatures are slightly taller and more heavy than their non-draconic counterparts. Also, on a side note, since half-dragons are of the dragon type they can take some of the dragon feats found in the draconomicon like awaken spell resistance, awaken frightful pressence, clinging breath, (epic) fast healing, etc.
Critical_Failure 12-05-06, 03:48 AM	thanks, i'll get draconomicon as soon as i can afford it edit: what effect do orbs of dragonkind have on half dragons?
Tequila_Sunrise 12-05-06, 12:33 PM	The other day I cracked open Dragon Magic in Forbidden Planet just for kicks and whaddya know the Aspect of Tiamat is CR 13 while the Aspect of Bahamut is only CR 12. I'm not saying that this proves anything, 'cause I don't consider the content of any book to be The Truth. Heck, if I were DM I'd make the CR difference be more than 1 measley point, but it's just nice to know that I have a bit of agreement.
Derren S. 12-05-06, 12:42 PM	edit: what effect do orbs of dragonkind have on half dragons? As half dragons are the dragon type they are affected like true dragons would.
casiel 12-06-06, 11:59 AM	Thanks!
ank 12-10-06, 09:41 PM	They finally legalized the races of the dragon, chapter two of the draconomicon, and (soon to come I would think, due to the ban on specific material from...) Dragon Magic in the Secrets of Xendric RPGA campain. When i found out I nearly went crazy, its about time they allowed full use of new (awesome) books. Also, anyone else with another question?
benstundze 12-10-06, 10:13 PM	whats the CR of a wormling gold dragon with a breath weapon 1's evry 8 round ? how about an Aduilt gold without fear, only has miner spells(and no spell like abilitys) breath weapon 1s evry 8 rounds, and thats CR?
Kothardarastrix 12-11-06, 04:48 AM	What's the CR of a wyrmling gold dragon with a breath weapon once every eight rounds? How about an Adult gold without frightful prescence, only has minor spells (and no spell-like abilities), and a breath weapon once every eight rounds CR? Corrected for ease of reading. Why would you want to lose the frequency of breath weapon or frightful prescence, spells, and spell-like abilities?
benstundze 12-11-06, 12:43 PM	I made a base class with a dragon familiar and that’s what it doesn’t have, how low would it make the actual CR? thanks ben
Kothardarastrix 12-11-06, 03:45 PM	Why not just backorder those two editions of Dragon Magazine that have Dragons as a base class?
benstundze 12-11-06, 04:22 PM	because i know apsolutly nothing about Dragon Magazine
forrestfire15 12-11-06, 04:46 PM	the dragon issues are #320 for metallic dragon monster class progressions #332 for chromatic dragon monter class progressions
d24478667 12-11-06, 05:06 PM	Abot those classes- If you are gestalting, say, Gold Dragon//Sorceror, what happens when you would hit a level where there is no dragon hit die?
Kothardarastrix 12-11-06, 07:38 PM	You do what Gestalt says and take the better of the two, 1d4 is better than 0d12.
d24478667 12-11-06, 08:59 PM	I was more concerned about the stuff that comes with the hitdie, namely BAB and saves.
Kothardarastrix 12-12-06, 03:47 AM	Unless your BAB increases at that advancement of the Sorcerer Hit Die, then no.
benstundze 12-12-06, 12:13 PM	so what about my gold dragon CR?
ank 12-12-06, 05:30 PM	A wyrmling Gold Dragon firstoff doesn't get spells or frightful presence until much later in its life. Also, a gold wyrmling normally has 1d4 reset time for breath weapon which deals 2D10 damage in a 30' cone. The CR on such a creature is 5. The breath weapon is, therefore, the only major setback that you propose and i am safe in saying most dragons of that category are served best by full attacks. I'd say that a 1d8 interval (or 8 turn interval) would lower its CR to about 4.5 CR at best. If you removed hit die on a one hit die per .5 CR i think that would be about right. So, either a 7 hit-die gold wyrmling with 8 turn interval or a 6D12 hit die creature with the regular breath weapon. I would be inclined to write this off as a brand new wyrmling new to the world and without much of its strength (hasen't build up enough energy to effectively use it's breath weapon and has fewer HD because it hasn't been around quite long enough in the harsh outside world to develop a typical draconic resistance). If you were looking for a playable dragon, you are not looking in the right place. Even with the BEST outline that i've given you (a 6d12 creature) you would still have an effective LA of +10 (+4 for dragon, +6 for hit die); a typical gold wyrmling is LA +12. If you want to play a dragon PC, i would recomend the psuedodragon (+3 LA, +2 hit die) or do the dragon companion model as outlined in the draconocon.
benstundze 12-12-06, 05:41 PM	ok, thanks :), and the gold adult? thanks ben
Kothardarastrix 12-12-06, 05:52 PM	The breath weapon is, therefore, the only major setback that you propose and i am safe in saying most dragons of that category are served best by full attacks. No, it's safer for wyrmlings to stay out of melee and use their breath weapons, they don't have DR and because of their reach they provoke attacks of oppurtunity only dealing 22.5-23.5/round on average. While you may be able to outdamage the PC's front-line combatants, it's best to just avoid them, since ranged weapons are typically weaker than melee. Thus the breath weapon is a hit to ANY dragon.
ank 12-13-06, 09:36 PM	because of their reach they provoke attacks of oppurtunity only dealing 22.5-23.5/round on average...Thus the breath weapon is a hit to ANY dragon. Last I checked a Wyrmling was a medium dragon and as such had space/reach of 5'/5' and allowed it not be subject to attacks of opportunity; i could be wrong, but i doubt it, so please bring up evidence to the contrary if i am wrong (thanks). The breath weapon may be useful for catching multiple opponents at once but it still only deal 2d10 or an average of 10 damage a target, and that's before a successful reflex save for 1/2. It can still be a quite a useful weapon, but I find that breath weapon becomes more useful as the dragon advances v. the average party. As for the adult, im strapped for time to go and fetch my books right now, but i'll get back to you within a day or two.