Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Questing GM 12-22-06, 12:04 AM	In preparation for running an adventure for my group, the BBEG turns out to be a mature adult blue dragon with 5 levels of sorcerer. I couldn't find the rules of dragons taking class levels in the SRD nor the Draconomicon. So other that making the dragon an effective caster level 11, what else is affected by the 5 levles of sorcerer ? :confused:
runestar 12-22-06, 12:37 AM	Since a mature adult blue dragon already has 24 racial HD, adding 5 sorc lvs will cause epic bab/saves to kick in, granting the dragon +3epic bab and +2 saves instead. As well as 5d4+5*con mod hp. And don't forget the paltry skill points. Note that since the dragon already casts as a sorc7, it now casts as a sorc12, not 11.:) Cr is a woefully overinflated 21...:(
Agun_de_Merak 12-22-06, 08:14 AM	in fact the dragon does not get epic bab and save at this point, cause tose are only for class level over 20, not for racial hit dice. but yes the BIG BLUE GUY will all the benefit for 5 sorcerer level: hit dice, skill points, saves, familiar, added spells known and spells per day as a 12 level socerer... for +5 CR !!!, he will be better getting some more age increase i think. my two cent
Witch 12-22-06, 08:22 AM	in fact the dragon does not get epic bab and save at this point, cause tose are only for class level over 20, not for racial hit dice. Get well-informed about Epic before making rude statements like that. He gets Epic BAB and saves. Epic BAB & saves are for character level, not class level. Any class levels above character level 20th trigger epic BAB & saves.
runestar 12-22-06, 08:24 AM	in fact the dragon does not get epic bab and save at this point, cause tose are only for class level over 20, not for racial hit dice. Not quite. Racial HD alone never triggers epic progression bab/saves. However, if you have more than 20 class lvs, or if the sum of your racial HD and class lvs equal 21 or more, than epic bab/saves will kick in. This is consistent with every such epic NPC ever statted. One such example is Gerti in the ELH.
obrysii 12-22-06, 08:26 AM	Get well-informed about Epic before making rude statements like that. He gets Epic BAB and saves. Epic BAB & saves are for character level, not class level. Any class levels above character level 20th trigger epic BAB & saves. Proof? How come, then, that dragons do not get epic BaB and saves for any HD above 20? Aren't they character level 20+ once their HD surpass that?
Witch 12-22-06, 08:32 AM	Only racial hit dice do not trigger Epic AB/saves. Those require at least one class level. The thing has been subject to much dispute, but the epic gurus have deemed this the only explanation that has any base in the rules, and still makes sense.
obrysii 12-22-06, 08:42 AM	Only racial hit dice do not trigger Epic AB/saves. Those require at least one class level. The thing has been subject to much dispute, but the epic gurus have deemed this the only explanation that has any base in the rules, and still makes sense. "Rule Gurus"? Who are they? On what thread or eratta was this stated? How come Dragon PrCs, many of which cannot be taken until they have a BaB of +30, have normal BaB progression?
Witch 12-22-06, 08:47 AM	It's not errata. The Epic Level Handbook specifically mentions "character level" as what Epic AB is based. Guess what character level is. It's hit dice, including racial. The Dragon Pr.C.s are in error - though I believe it's stated in the book that they are exceptions.
obrysii 12-22-06, 08:55 AM	No. They aren't. You are in error. There has been no evidence, anywhere, that a dragon does not gain full BaB and saves from classes that are not yet epic. And what "rule gurus"? You still haven't answered that. The general concensous that I can find is that they do gain normal BaB and saves.
Witch 12-22-06, 09:06 AM	Rule Gurus: Jaerom Darkwind, Rob Douglas, Bluemage55. Check the Epic Level forum if you don't know who they are. Furthermore: Epic Save Bonus A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus. Character Level always refers to Hit Dice. Estimated Character Level always refers to Hit Dice + Level Adjustment. And I'll have to repeat something I say often: This is Epic. Epic gaming lives on consensus, as you won't get clear answers from the books, that all contradict. The DMG contradicts the Epic SRD. One monster contradicts, another does not. Etcetera. Epic Level requires people who understand the game very well - and I would suggest asking this at the Epic Level forum if you want a better explanation.
runestar 12-22-06, 09:11 AM	No one ever pays any attention to my posts...:weep: Like I said, look at the writeup of any epic lv character in any dnd source. Gerti from the ELH. Duargototh from the wyrms of the north article at the wotc FR section. The sarrukh wizard from realms personalities. The sarrukh cleric from serpent kingdoms. That crystal dragon wiz1 and the gold dragon druid from dragons of faerun. Their stats are all consistent with the stance proposed by witch, that class lvs will trigger epic bab/saves so long as the sum of racial HD and class lvs exceeds 20. Not coincidentally, they happen to conflict with your whacked out theory. How come Dragon PrCs, many of which cannot be taken until they have a BaB of +30, have normal BaB progression? This has been explicitly covered in the FAQ. The designers meant for these prcs to be an exception to the normal epic rules. As such, the dragons taking such prcs accrue bab/saves as per the prc, rather than going by epic bab/rules progression. And what "rule gurus"? You still haven't answered that. The general concensous that I can find is that they do gain normal BaB and saves. I could say the same for you. Where's your part of the proof, beyond that condescending tone? Who's this general consensus? All I see are scathing statements without a single iota of proof to back them up.:confused: We have brought our evidence to the stand. Now its your turn to reciprocate.
obrysii 12-22-06, 09:30 AM	Perhaps it's simply my ignorance of the Epic Level Handbook. I guess I was off base. Sorry.
Gnarl 12-22-06, 10:37 AM	but yes the BIG BLUE GUY will all the benefit for 5 sorcerer level: hit dice, skill points, saves, familiar, added spells known and spells per day as a 12 level socerer... for +5 CR !!!, he will be better getting some more age increase i think. It's not you think, it's for sure :D. On the one side you get more hit points, base attack, AC, spell resistance, spellcasting ability, melee damage (size increase), better breath weapon, damage reduction, better frightful presence (only racial hit dice count to determine the DC) On the other side you get a lousy familiar, and perhaps an elite array for stats :D.
Ics 12-22-06, 11:21 AM	but yes the BIG BLUE GUY will all the benefit for 5 sorcerer level: hit dice, skill points, saves, familiar, added spells known and spells per day as a 12 level socerer... for +5 CR !!!, he will be better getting some more age increase i think.If you count the sorcerer levels as non-associated (which I would), then they will only raise the CR by 2 or 3 (MM, p.294).:dragon:
Prime32 12-22-06, 11:25 AM	If the dragon has alternate form (Yes, I know blues don't), it should try some warshaper levels.
Witch 12-22-06, 11:26 AM	If you count the sorcerer levels as non-associated (which I would), then they will only raise the CR by 2 or 3 (MM, p.294).:dragon: But it's associated, as it improves its spellcasting.
Morwen 12-22-06, 12:00 PM	But it's associated, as it improves its spellcasting. Consider whether you'd prefer to add +5 CR and 5 caster levels by giving a Mature Adult Blue Dragon 5 Sorcerer levels, or by substituting it for an Ancient Blue Dragon without levels (also a +5 CR increase).. It casts as a 13th level Sorcerer, plus has a bunch of other benefits compared to the aforementioned classed Mature Adult. I'd definitely consider the 5 Sorc levels to be non-associated for this Dragon.
Ics 12-22-06, 12:01 PM	But it's associated, as it improves its spellcasting.Yes, normally, but as dragons usually rely on their physical strength, not their spells (which lag behind 4 spell levels relative to where the PCs are likely to be). Since I think general consensus (see below) has been that moving up an age category would be better than taking the levels of sorcerer (which would increase its physical strength more than its spells while technically leaving it at a lower CR), I meant my suggestion to be if the OP wanted to keep his BBEG an above-average spellcaster while keeping him at an appropriate CR. So, technically, I agree that adding casting ability to a casting creature would count as associated class levels, it's not like the 'rules' for improving creatures are rock solid; they take a bit of interpretation. Cr is a woefully overinflated 21... for +5 CR !!!, he will be better getting some more age increase i think. but yes the BIG BLUE GUY will all the benefit for 5 sorcerer level: hit dice, skill points, saves, familiar, added spells known and spells per day as a 12 level socerer... for +5 CR !!!, he will be better getting some more age increase i think. It's not you think, it's for sure .:D
ank 12-22-06, 02:15 PM	Agreed. There really is nothing left here for me to say, but i'll affirm the 1/2 CR per level and all the benefit of sorceror. Pity, if you didn't give him 7-9 levels of sorceror, then he could have gained the benefit of a dragon familiar (ironic?)
runestar 12-22-06, 11:55 PM	However, 1 class lv nonetheless adds the elite stat array, so it might still be worth it to tack on a single lv of sorc just for this purpose.:) I agree that sorc lvs definitely should not be treated as associated, since its benefits pale in comparison with the next best thing - more dragon HD. +3cr for 5 sorc lvs seems about right.
Questing GM 12-23-06, 05:19 AM	Sorry but i got REALLY confused the moment the epic stuff was brought into the equation...since i've never had any campaign that gave me a chance to test out the epic rules...:weep: The BBEG that i mentioned was actually the Moreume dragon brothers from FR in the Silver Marches where they were stated as mature blue with sorc 5...so i guess i would stick to using them at sorc 5 with the +5 CR. :P so could someone point me to where the materials that you all have been refering to so i can continue doing my homework ? :confused: :embarrass :weep:
Derren S. 12-23-06, 08:29 AM	Just ignore all the epic stuff. Simply add 5 sorcerer levels normally.
obrysii 12-23-06, 08:45 AM	However, 1 class lv nonetheless adds the elite stat array, so it might still be worth it to tack on a single lv of sorc just for this purpose.:) A dragon should always have unique stats, using the same generation method as the PC's. At least, that's my opinion. Dragons are (somewhat) rare and magnificent. They should have the same advantages as the PC's have.
Morwen 12-23-06, 06:08 PM	The BBEG that i mentioned was actually the Moreume dragon brothers from FR in the Silver Marches where they were stated as mature blue with sorc 5...so i guess i would stick to using them at sorc 5 with the +5 CR. :P No problem using it with Sorc 5, just don't give it +5 CR.. It should only be +3 or thereabouts, as Sorc isn't associated for Dragons :)
Executor_5 12-23-06, 06:11 PM	A dragon should always have unique stats, using the same generation method as the PC's. At least, that's my opinion. Dragons are (somewhat) rare and magnificent. They should have the same advantages as the PC's have. I agree completely. Any named special monster or BBEG should have the same advantages as the PCs, since by definition they're not normal/"average".
TheCobra 01-08-07, 02:34 PM	Based on Dragons of Faerun, dragons with class levels don't get epic attack or save bonuses. BAB keeps on going up. And sorcerer levels do increase CR on a one-to-one basis. Hell, even wizard levels increase CR on a one-to-one basis. :D
Witch 01-08-07, 02:43 PM	Based on Dragons of Faerun, dragons with class levels don't get epic attack or save bonuses. BAB keeps on going up. Seriously, I'm getting tired of designers trying to meddle in that which they don't know the rules of. I don't care if you don't know Epic Rules - but then don't develop epic creatures.
primemover003 01-08-07, 08:54 PM	In preparation for running an adventure for my group, the BBEG turns out to be a mature adult blue dragon with 5 levels of sorcerer. I couldn't find the rules of dragons taking class levels in the SRD nor the Draconomicon. So other that making the dragon an effective caster level 11, what else is affected by the 5 levles of sorcerer ? :confused: That wouldn't happen to be one of the Morueme brothers would it???
Questing GM 01-08-07, 10:34 PM	That wouldn't happen to be one of the Morueme brothers would it??? Eh....yeah. I'm running Red Hand of Doom (more like Blue Hand of Doom now...) so i needed to make up the stats for the brothers. I initially wanted to turn one of them into a dracolich but that would have made things even more complicated than it is...:P I know it doesn't sync with the current situation of the Blood of Morueme as stated in Dragons of Faerun. But if no compromise, no game...;)
runestar 01-08-07, 11:24 PM	Based on Dragons of Faerun, dragons with class levels don't get epic attack or save bonuses. BAB keeps on going up. And sorcerer levels do increase CR on a one-to-one basis. Hell, even wizard levels increase CR on a one-to-one basis. And you are absolutely wrong with regards to the first part. If you are talking about the dragon ascendent prc, it has been clarified that the designers intended them not to incur epic bab/saves as a special exception to the rules. Outside of that, class lvs incur epic bab/saves progression when total sum of HD exceeds 20. No two ways about it.;)
TheCobra 01-09-07, 07:40 PM	Read Dragons of Faerun, runestar. I'm not talking about any PRC, just rogue and druid levels. All the example dragons in the book keep on stacking BAB. Of course, you'll probably just say that examples are always wrong. In one case, an old gold dragon with 11 druid levels somehow still only has 29 HD, yet also has +37 BAB.
Witch 01-09-07, 07:40 PM	And saying that the examples are wrong would be a valid answer :)
TheCobra 01-09-07, 07:51 PM	Yeah, I guess it would be. I hate that, though. Examples are usually the easiest things to learn from. Anyway, I agree that sorcerer level should be nonassociated levels, though I'd probably start counting them as associated once the dragon's total caster level equaled its CR. Speaking of dragon CR and caster level, steel dragons, also from Dragons of Faerun, are strictly better than sorcerers starting at young. Caster level 5, CR 4. Stick a sorcerer level on that baby and you've got a CR 5 monster who hurls 3rd-level spells and has more hp than the party's fighter. It just gets worse from there. A steel dragon great wyrm casts as a 21st-level sorcerer but is only CR 18, despite also having 536hp and 44 AC without any spells. And they can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Just the thing for a TPK.
runestar 01-09-07, 08:32 PM	Read Dragons of Faerun, runestar. I'm not talking about any PRC, just rogue and druid levels. All the example dragons in the book keep on stacking BAB. Of course, you'll probably just say that examples are always wrong. In one case, an old gold dragon with 11 druid levels somehow still only has 29 HD, yet also has +37 BAB. I see what you are getting at. The gold dragon druid should have bab+35, not bab+37. The green dragon rogue/druid should have bab +36, not bab+38. And the crystal dragon should have bab+21, not bab+20...:embarrass I don't know what to make about this though, since this errors seem to be rampant throughout the entire book, and not just limited to 1 or 2 examples.:(
TheCobra 01-09-07, 10:33 PM	What about the frost giant jarl? It's BAB should be +16, with +1 epic bonus on attack rolls, or +12, with a +3 epic bonus on attack rolls (that's if you count level adjustment). No, it's +18.
Gnarl 01-10-07, 08:17 AM	Speaking of dragon CR and caster level, steel dragons, also from Dragons of Faerun, are strictly better than sorcerers starting at young. Caster level 5, CR 4. Stick a sorcerer level on that baby and you've got a CR 5 monster who hurls 3rd-level spells and has more hp than the party's fighter. It just gets worse from there. A steel dragon great wyrm casts as a 21st-level sorcerer but is only CR 18, despite also having 536hp and 44 AC without any spells. And they can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Just the thing for a TPK. And check the spell resistance... yikes. This monster looks like a MM2 one ;). I don't know what to make about this though, since this errors seem to be rampant throughout the entire book, and not just limited to 1 or 2 examples. I guess WoTC R&D members don't know how it works either :D.
runestar 01-10-07, 08:30 AM	And check the spell resistance... yikes. This monster looks like a MM2 one . And its cr supposedly makes it weaker than white dragons...:P
Derren S. 01-10-07, 11:57 AM	Strange. If I remember right, when that dragon first appeared on the website most people argued that the CR was ok (I was not one of them). http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a
dawnbringer 01-10-07, 12:21 PM	In the book of templates, it says a monster gains +1 CR for ever 5 spell caster levels it gains.
Witch 01-10-07, 12:32 PM	The book of templates is wrong, and stupidly wrong, as well.
Derren S. 01-10-07, 12:33 PM	The book of templates is wrong, and stupidly wrong, as well. Seconded. Take a Formian Taskmaster CR 7. Now add 20 Sorcerer caster levels CR 11?
Morwen 01-10-07, 12:51 PM	Perhaps the Dragons of Faerūn dragons decided to do their adventuring and class-level-gaining before they aged enough to make those levels epic ;)
TheCobra 01-10-07, 03:07 PM	And check the spell resistance... yikes. Yeah. An 18th-level caster would have to roll a 20 to beat it. Assay spell resistance would help, but she'd still need a 10. The 18th-level party could probably take it, but it'd be harder than any other CR 18 encounter I can think of. It's strictly superior to CR 18 red dragon - even physically. And its cr supposedly makes it weaker than white dragons... Well, the CR is 4 for both very young and young dragons. I think it's obvious they weren't playing much attention when they assigned CR. f I remember right, when that dragon first appeared on the website most people argued that the CR was ok (I was not one of them). If so, then sorcerers are seriously underpowered. Maybe they're assuming the dragon will start in human form. Of course, a great wyrm steel dragon is still a 21-level sorcerer with 536hp, 38 SR, and great saves.
Derren S. 01-10-07, 03:13 PM	Imo the CR for the Steel dragon is a mistake. Have you noticed that the Very Young and Young dragon have the same CR? I think that somewhere someone simply slipped by one line so that the CR after the Very Young age is wrong by one age category.
TheCobra 01-10-07, 03:35 PM	I think that somewhere someone simply slipped by one line so that the CR after the Very Young age is wrong by one age category. That'd still make steel dragons better than sorcerers. A wyrm would still be a very tough CR 18.
angryman 01-11-07, 07:59 AM	Get well-informed about Epic before making rude statements like that. He gets Epic BAB and saves. Epic BAB & saves are for character level, not class level. Any class levels above character level 20th trigger epic BAB & saves. Epic is not core, therefore monsters don't generally have epic feats etc. It's like giving monsters spells from Oriental Adventures.
runestar 01-11-07, 08:02 AM	Epic is not core, therefore monsters don't generally have epic feats etc. It's like giving monsters spells from Oriental Adventures. They may not get epic feats, but they should still use epic lv mechanics...
Witch 01-11-07, 08:02 AM	The difference, Epic is open content. Oriental Adventures isn't. But you are correct - they don't have them. If people make Epic Monsters (such as say, the MM2), then they should however use Epic Feats (and reprint them). They may not get epic feats, but they should still use epic lv mechanics... Correct.
runestar 01-11-07, 08:07 AM	On a side note, I can understand some game designers unwilling to include epic feats in a monster's stat block if they feel it is too troublesome for the players to reference the feats. However, epic saves/bab will all have already been factored into their stat block, and thus there would be no confusion. I don't see why they wouldn't use epic lv mechanics in this case.
angryman 01-11-07, 08:31 AM	They may not get epic feats, but they should still use epic lv mechanics... True, but I don't like seeing 21HD creatures with crazy epic feats.
Witch 01-11-07, 08:58 AM	I agree on that angryman. I think that Epic Feats should require a CR greater than 20.
runestar 01-11-07, 09:25 AM	I concur, I think a monster must be both cr21+ and have 21+HD before it can consider taking epic feats, to avoid possible game imbalance due to a non-epic party pitting themselves against epic feats.