Dragon Clerics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Clerics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maestro3030
10-18-06, 03:40 AM I noticed an article on the wizards dnd page, about the delve that they ran at this year's gencon. I love the idea of a 20th level party fighting some kick arse dragons, and I'll probably run this with my own group.

I was wondering, though, about the cleric spells the red dragon can apparently cast? I was under the impression that dragons inherently got S/W spells, rather than cleric. I like the idea that dragons can substitute their S/W spells for cleric spells, but I'm just wondering where the rules for this can be found?
Dunamin
10-18-06, 03:56 AM From the SRD:

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Evil, and Law domains as arcane spells.

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells.

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos and Knowledge domains as arcane spells.

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Animal, Law, and Water domains as arcane spells.

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Earth, and Trickery domains as arcane spells.

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Law, Luck, and Good domains as arcane spells.

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains as arcane spells.

It's under the tables of Abilities by Age in the various entries of individual true dragon types.
Seems like the metallics got the good deal, huh? 2 breath weapon types, clerical spells for all, and they outlive the chromatics by millenia.
Maestro3030
10-18-06, 04:36 AM Ahhhh .... thanks for that.

So, do you have to choose cleric or sorceror? I found the relevant sections in the monster manual, and as you've quoted, it says they can "also" cast cleric spells. Does this mean they can cast spells as sorceror X/cleric X, or do cleric spells count against their sorceror spells per day?

I suspect the latter.
Dunamin
10-18-06, 05:01 AM It says they can cast the additional spells as arcane spells. I take that as meaning that the lucky dragon's spell list is composed of Sor/Wis spells + Clr spells + domain spells.

It still only knows a number of spells that are determined by it's caster level, following the rules for sorcerers.

So, yes, that would be your latter option.
primemover003
10-18-06, 10:08 AM The spells taken from the Cleric list or the Domain lists are cast as Arcane spells by the dragon. So your dragons can be twice as nasty when they can cast HEAL on themselves!!!
obrysii
10-18-06, 10:19 AM Not to mention....but Dragons also ignore material components from their spells, according to the Draconomicon.
Dunamin
10-18-06, 12:01 PM The spells taken from the Cleric list or the Domain lists are cast as Arcane spells by the dragon. So your dragons can be twice as nasty when they can cast HEAL on themselves!!!
That's what you get for picking a fight with a dragon of at least CR 19.

Not to mention....but Dragons also ignore material components from their spells, according to the Draconomicon.
That's how I play it (as long as the spell doesn't have a valueable material component). Dragons with spell component pouches... are not exactly to my tastes, to put it mildly.
Derren S.
10-18-06, 12:55 PM Not to mention....but Dragons also ignore material components from their spells, according to the Draconomicon.

Yes, and that means free ressurections from dragons.

(And, because of bad spell design, theoretically beeing able to fabricate out of thin air).
frankthedm
10-24-06, 10:53 AM Not to mention....but Dragons also ignore material components from their spells, according to the Draconomicon.A grevious mistake on the Draconomicon's part. It references the MM incorrectly.

Spells
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maestro3030 10-18-06, 03:40 AM	I noticed an article on the wizards dnd page, about the delve that they ran at this year's gencon. I love the idea of a 20th level party fighting some kick arse dragons, and I'll probably run this with my own group. I was wondering, though, about the cleric spells the red dragon can apparently cast? I was under the impression that dragons inherently got S/W spells, rather than cleric. I like the idea that dragons can substitute their S/W spells for cleric spells, but I'm just wondering where the rules for this can be found?
Dunamin 10-18-06, 03:56 AM	From the SRD: Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Evil, and Law domains as arcane spells. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos and Knowledge domains as arcane spells. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Animal, Law, and Water domains as arcane spells. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Earth, and Trickery domains as arcane spells. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Law, Luck, and Good domains as arcane spells. *Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains as arcane spells. It's under the tables of Abilities by Age in the various entries of individual true dragon types. Seems like the metallics got the good deal, huh? 2 breath weapon types, clerical spells for all, and they outlive the chromatics by millenia.
Maestro3030 10-18-06, 04:36 AM	Ahhhh .... thanks for that. So, do you have to choose cleric or sorceror? I found the relevant sections in the monster manual, and as you've quoted, it says they can "also" cast cleric spells. Does this mean they can cast spells as sorceror X/cleric X, or do cleric spells count against their sorceror spells per day? I suspect the latter.
Dunamin 10-18-06, 05:01 AM	It says they can cast the additional spells as arcane spells. I take that as meaning that the lucky dragon's spell list is composed of Sor/Wis spells + Clr spells + domain spells. It still only knows a number of spells that are determined by it's caster level, following the rules for sorcerers. So, yes, that would be your latter option.
primemover003 10-18-06, 10:08 AM	The spells taken from the Cleric list or the Domain lists are cast as Arcane spells by the dragon. So your dragons can be twice as nasty when they can cast HEAL on themselves!!!
obrysii 10-18-06, 10:19 AM	Not to mention....but Dragons also ignore material components from their spells, according to the Draconomicon.
Dunamin 10-18-06, 12:01 PM	The spells taken from the Cleric list or the Domain lists are cast as Arcane spells by the dragon. So your dragons can be twice as nasty when they can cast HEAL on themselves!!! That's what you get for picking a fight with a dragon of at least CR 19. Not to mention....but Dragons also ignore material components from their spells, according to the Draconomicon. That's how I play it (as long as the spell doesn't have a valueable material component). Dragons with spell component pouches... are not exactly to my tastes, to put it mildly.
Derren S. 10-18-06, 12:55 PM	Not to mention....but Dragons also ignore material components from their spells, according to the Draconomicon. Yes, and that means free ressurections from dragons. (And, because of bad spell design, theoretically beeing able to fabricate out of thin air).
frankthedm 10-24-06, 10:53 AM	Not to mention....but Dragons also ignore material components from their spells, according to the Draconomicon.A grevious mistake on the Draconomicon's part. It references the MM incorrectly. Spells Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components. A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.