Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hekker 05-19-04, 09:51 AM	What's up with dragon CR? it seems that all dragons are FAR better than their CR would indicate. When I use a group of 4 NPC's of 6th level (this makes a CR 10 encounter, right?) my party kills them with 2 fingers in their nose. But when I set my party up against a junevile red dragon (CR10 according to MM3.5) it kills them way too easily! His breath weapon alone does 8d10 damage, and than hes 6 different attacks that all do something like 1d6+10 damage. A NPC or a group of NPC's would never be able to do this. One of the players in my campaign even told me (can't check this cause I don't own the book) that in 3.0 a junevile dragon was only CR 6! For crying out loud! Shoud dragon CR's be upped and NPC CR's nerfed? What do you think? For your information: The party was lvl 7 so this was intended to be a hard challenge, but why is it that dragons are so much HARDER to beat then NPC's or other monsters of the same level?
Deekin 05-19-04, 07:49 PM	First Off, it has been stated many many many times on this board that Dragon CRs are abetraily lowered becouse it is assumed that the PCs will find out about the dragons. Second, a CR 3 higher with a dragon and the party in not prepared is just asking for A TPC
cwslyclgh 05-19-04, 08:04 PM	a dragons CR (unlike that of other creatures) assumes that the party will know about the dragon in adavnce, and prepare specifically to fight a dragon of that type (buff themselves with protection from energy (fire) spells before taking on that red you described, etc).
hekker 05-20-04, 03:49 AM	But why do only dragon CR assume that the party has prepared specifically? Should I up dragon CR's by 1 if the party is unprepared?
Zardnaar 05-20-04, 02:36 PM	My personal belief is the CR system doesn't work very well. My 6 member party of level 15 charcter took out a great wurm white dragon (CR21) even though the Dragon had a major ring of fire resistence and buff spells. And sometimes PCs can die to CRs lower than the party. That Dragon failed every SR roll and had 3 spell casters (Druid, Cleric, Wizard) throwing metamagiced fire spells at it and seemed to fail his reflex saves as well.
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-20-04, 06:11 PM	Umm... The CRs you guys are listing are higher than the levels of the party members. I think that the CR (for dragons) is meant for it to be the only encounter in a 24 hour period, not an encounter that requires a minimal amount of the party's resources.
hekker 05-21-04, 02:59 AM	@ thomar: But... the way I know the rules a "one in 24 hours" encounter is 2-3 CR's above party level. So that's why I chose a dragon of CR 3 above party lvl (they all seem to roll über stats so they can handle something). But it seems that with dragons CR assume that the PC's have prepared especially for them, which is ridiculous because no other CR assumes this.
Dave1001 05-21-04, 07:54 AM	a CR 10 creature means that the average 10th level party would expend a certain amount of resources in killing it. 4 6th level characters would find the same challenge going up against a CR 6 creature. When you start throwing a CR 4 levels higher than the party, you're almost assured a fast death to all involved.
Arakano 05-21-04, 10:25 AM	Originally posted by Dave1001 a CR 10 creature means that the average 10th level party would expend a certain amount of resources in killing it. 4 6th level characters would find the same challenge going up against a CR 6 creature. When you start throwing a CR 4 levels higher than the party, you're almost assured a fast death to all involved. Yes, but this says NOTHING about the fact that dragons are far harder opponents than NSCs... :rolleyes: @hekker: I know the problem. I think NSC-CRs are somehow wrong. How can a 4th lvl fighter, for example, be a challenge for a group of 4 PCs of the same lvl? And hey, if my PCs vernture forth into the underdark, they expect to meet drow or illithids, so they prepare accordingly. Why is the CR of Drow and Illithids not lowered the way dragon´s CRs are? Face it guys: The game designers simply DO NOT WANT DRAGONS TO DIE! Dragons are obviously considered to be only used as tools for TPKs... :D
hekker 05-21-04, 10:51 AM	a CR 10 creature means that the average 10th level party would expend a certain amount of resources in killing it. 4 6th level characters would find the same challenge going up against a CR 6 creature. When you start throwing a CR 4 levels higher than the party, you're almost assured a fast death to all involved. a) It was 3 lvls higher than party lvl b) How I interpret the rules on CR (i might be wrong here): CR rules according to me CR = party lvl: expends about 1/5th of party recources CR = party lvl +2: Party probably wins, but chances are at least 1 PC dies CR = party lvl +4: Theres a 50% chance that either party or monster wins. When the party wins, there are likely some party members dead. When the monster wins, this is AKA a total party kill :schemes:
shmeg 05-21-04, 02:09 PM	Here's my handy dandy CR calculator when it comes to individual monster CRs (not EL since that's hopelessly broken): CR=APL (Average Party Level): Party will kill the monster, generally expending a spell or two or taking a hit or two. CR=APL+1: Party will Kill the monster but will expend 25-50% of their resources in the oporation (healing and other spells) CR=APL+2: Party will likely overcome the monster but at significant risk. They will need to rest and recharge afterwards or be killed in the next fight. CR=APL+3: Party risks death if unprepared, never randomly throw monsters of this level against the party, you need to plan ahead and give the PCs a chance or TPK. CR=APL+4 or higher: Party better prep or die. Lower CRs are a joke most of the time in one on one fights. Encounter levels are another story, I can rant on those later...