Dragon Dexterity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Dexterity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DebiHuman
07-04-06, 05:42 PM I was perusing my Monster Manual, OA, and looking at various dragons and I noticed that almost all true dragons have a dex of 10 and it never changes with the age category of the dragon but a lot of other dragons have much higher dexterity. I was wondering why this is.

The radiant dragon starts with a dex of 14 and it drops to 10 by the time of Great wyrm so I'm not sure if it was a mistake or supposed to be like that.

Debby
Morwen
07-04-06, 05:47 PM It's supposed to be like that. The idea is that with such a huge bulk that the Dragons have, they aren't very nimble and agile.
CryoSilver
07-04-06, 05:48 PM Well, uh, it's a giant lizard; I wouldn't expect it to be terribly Dextrous.

Also, at certain increments of size change, Dex drops by 2.

What this means, incidentally, is that if you play with Frostburn, if you can beat the dragon's SR, Maximized Chill Touch immobilizes by dealing 18 Dex damage (no save) :P
Witch
07-04-06, 06:30 PM And beating that SR isn't terribly hard :)
CryoSilver
07-04-06, 07:42 PM Not really. If you're casting level 6 spells (Chill Touch is lvl 3, plus maximize), you're at least level 11. Picking a random dragon, a mature black dragon (CR 14) we get SR 21, or, a 50% chance to beat it. If you're actually level 14, that goes up to 65%. 75% with Spell Penetration. I won't go on.
angryman
07-04-06, 08:17 PM Not really. If you're casting level 6 spells (Chill Touch is lvl 3, plus maximize), you're at least level 11. Picking a random dragon, a mature black dragon (CR 14) we get SR 21, or, a 50% chance to beat it. If you're actually level 14, that goes up to 65%. 75% with Spell Penetration. I won't go on.

I tend to pick up spell penetration, and often improved SP with all my real casters. All those pesky critters with SR annoy me. Additionally, if you're an elemental savant (last one I played was a cold savant), you're gonna have more bonuses. I have never really had problem with SR because I take steps to circumvent it.
Ninetails Demon
07-04-06, 08:19 PM I think what the OP is asking about, is why don't true dragons have a drop in their dex score as they age and increase in size. Meanwhile, other dragons do suffer from such a fate.
CryoSilver
07-04-06, 08:23 PM Cause they'd end up with a Dex of about 2?
General_Ridley
07-04-06, 08:39 PM Cause they'd end up with a Dex of about 2?

and thusly a negative touch armor.
grelna
07-04-06, 09:30 PM What this means, incidentally, is that if you play with Frostburn, if you can beat the dragon's SR, Maximized Chill Touch immobilizes by dealing 18 Dex damage (no save)I have seen this assertion made before (although I believe you mean the spell Shivering Touch). I have wondered how it squares with the immunity shared by all true dragons to paralysis effects and the statement under Ability Damaged on p.300 of the DMG that a creature dropped to 0 Dexterity is paralyzed. To me, that makes it sound as if dragons are immune to Dexterity ability damage or drain, including that from Shivering Touch).
Ogre4Hire
07-04-06, 09:44 PM Nope, if dragons had that immunity, it would be listed under their type.
grelna
07-04-06, 11:22 PM Nope, if dragons had that immunity, it would be listed under their type.You may be right, Ogre4Hire, but only if Dex loss is not covered under "paralysis effects." To me, and I'll admit I'm not sure about this, it seems as if any effect that causes a condition called paralysis is, in fact, a paralysis effect. The DMG doesn't say immobilized under Ability Damaged; it says paralyzed. I see it as no different than being immune to a poison that caused paralysis. Dragons are not immune to poisons in general, but I think they would be immune to poisons that caused paralysis, as that would be a "paralysis effect."
CryoSilver
07-04-06, 11:24 PM Well, in that case, since only having a Dex of 0 causes paralysis, wouldn't it be fair to say that the draggie can be brough to 1 Dex and no lower, by your thinking?
grelna
07-04-06, 11:41 PM Well, in that case, since only having a Dex of 0 causes paralysis, wouldn't it be fair to say that the draggie can be brough to 1 Dex and no lower, by your thinking?Um, sure. That pretty much sums it up for me. It would still be a major disadvantage for the dragon, of course, but not an instakill from a Sudden Maximized 3rd level spell. I'm pretty sure the reason the designers gave them the immunity in the first place was to avoid stuff like that.
Derren S.
07-05-06, 01:34 AM Shivering touch is a instant kill for dragons, but also for nearly all other monsters in the MMs. The problem is not with the dragons but with the spell which is one of the most broken spells in D&D.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DebiHuman 07-04-06, 05:42 PM	I was perusing my Monster Manual, OA, and looking at various dragons and I noticed that almost all true dragons have a dex of 10 and it never changes with the age category of the dragon but a lot of other dragons have much higher dexterity. I was wondering why this is. The radiant dragon starts with a dex of 14 and it drops to 10 by the time of Great wyrm so I'm not sure if it was a mistake or supposed to be like that. Debby
Morwen 07-04-06, 05:47 PM	It's supposed to be like that. The idea is that with such a huge bulk that the Dragons have, they aren't very nimble and agile.
CryoSilver 07-04-06, 05:48 PM	Well, uh, it's a giant lizard; I wouldn't expect it to be terribly Dextrous. Also, at certain increments of size change, Dex drops by 2. What this means, incidentally, is that if you play with Frostburn, if you can beat the dragon's SR, Maximized Chill Touch immobilizes by dealing 18 Dex damage (no save) :P
Witch 07-04-06, 06:30 PM	And beating that SR isn't terribly hard :)
CryoSilver 07-04-06, 07:42 PM	Not really. If you're casting level 6 spells (Chill Touch is lvl 3, plus maximize), you're at least level 11. Picking a random dragon, a mature black dragon (CR 14) we get SR 21, or, a 50% chance to beat it. If you're actually level 14, that goes up to 65%. 75% with Spell Penetration. I won't go on.
angryman 07-04-06, 08:17 PM	Not really. If you're casting level 6 spells (Chill Touch is lvl 3, plus maximize), you're at least level 11. Picking a random dragon, a mature black dragon (CR 14) we get SR 21, or, a 50% chance to beat it. If you're actually level 14, that goes up to 65%. 75% with Spell Penetration. I won't go on. I tend to pick up spell penetration, and often improved SP with all my real casters. All those pesky critters with SR annoy me. Additionally, if you're an elemental savant (last one I played was a cold savant), you're gonna have more bonuses. I have never really had problem with SR because I take steps to circumvent it.
Ninetails Demon 07-04-06, 08:19 PM	I think what the OP is asking about, is why don't true dragons have a drop in their dex score as they age and increase in size. Meanwhile, other dragons do suffer from such a fate.
CryoSilver 07-04-06, 08:23 PM	Cause they'd end up with a Dex of about 2?
General_Ridley 07-04-06, 08:39 PM	Cause they'd end up with a Dex of about 2? and thusly a negative touch armor.
grelna 07-04-06, 09:30 PM	What this means, incidentally, is that if you play with Frostburn, if you can beat the dragon's SR, Maximized Chill Touch immobilizes by dealing 18 Dex damage (no save)I have seen this assertion made before (although I believe you mean the spell Shivering Touch). I have wondered how it squares with the immunity shared by all true dragons to paralysis effects and the statement under Ability Damaged on p.300 of the DMG that a creature dropped to 0 Dexterity is paralyzed. To me, that makes it sound as if dragons are immune to Dexterity ability damage or drain, including that from Shivering Touch).
Ogre4Hire 07-04-06, 09:44 PM	Nope, if dragons had that immunity, it would be listed under their type.
grelna 07-04-06, 11:22 PM	Nope, if dragons had that immunity, it would be listed under their type.You may be right, Ogre4Hire, but only if Dex loss is not covered under "paralysis effects." To me, and I'll admit I'm not sure about this, it seems as if any effect that causes a condition called paralysis is, in fact, a paralysis effect. The DMG doesn't say immobilized under Ability Damaged; it says paralyzed. I see it as no different than being immune to a poison that caused paralysis. Dragons are not immune to poisons in general, but I think they would be immune to poisons that caused paralysis, as that would be a "paralysis effect."
CryoSilver 07-04-06, 11:24 PM	Well, in that case, since only having a Dex of 0 causes paralysis, wouldn't it be fair to say that the draggie can be brough to 1 Dex and no lower, by your thinking?
grelna 07-04-06, 11:41 PM	Well, in that case, since only having a Dex of 0 causes paralysis, wouldn't it be fair to say that the draggie can be brough to 1 Dex and no lower, by your thinking?Um, sure. That pretty much sums it up for me. It would still be a major disadvantage for the dragon, of course, but not an instakill from a Sudden Maximized 3rd level spell. I'm pretty sure the reason the designers gave them the immunity in the first place was to avoid stuff like that.
Derren S. 07-05-06, 01:34 AM	Shivering touch is a instant kill for dragons, but also for nearly all other monsters in the MMs. The problem is not with the dragons but with the spell which is one of the most broken spells in D&D.