Dragon Disciple concerns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Disciple concerns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kraguk
12-05-03, 10:16 PM In a D&D campaign that my group is starting in a few weeks, I will be playing a kobold dragon disciple...a sorcerer until 10th level who began manifesting bronze dragon traits and is now a 10 sorc/5 disciple. Since our group plays once a week without almost any interruption and our campaigns last for several months, I predict that he will reach 10 disciple by the end of it all.

...what, in your opinion (or according to the Draconomicon, I'm waiting to buy it this weekend when it's friends and family day at the bookstore) happens when a disciple hits 10th level and undergoes dragon apotheosis?

I've read sources that say he becomes a half-dragon, and sources that say he becomes a full dragon. What do you think makes for better gaming, and why?

Also...if the character were to become a full dragon...at what stage would he emerge? My kobold is only about 15 or 16 human years old, but by kobold reckoning, adulthood. Would he transform into a young adult dragon since that's what stage of life he's in, or a hatchling/very young stage, because that's what he chronologically would fall under?

Would he need to re-enter an egg and let his body reconstruct itself, since the jump from draconic kobold to dragon is quite a big one?

If these questions are answered in the book, sorry for wasting space here. I assume they're for individual DMs and PCs to decide.

Thanks!
jagggar
12-05-03, 10:39 PM According to the 3.5 SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/PrestigeClasses.rtf), the dragon apotheosis means the character takes on the half-dragon template.
Kastas
12-06-03, 02:53 AM I've never read that it transforms a character into a full dragon. Every official source I've seen is pretty explicit about the character changing into a half-dragon.

I apologize if I'm out of place by saying this (since it is your character), but I should point out that your intended character build is going to be a bit underpowered, at least in a campaign with a significant amount of combat.

The reason for this is that most of a dragon disciple's abilities do not synergize well with those of a typical pure caster; you get only token spell advancement (without even learning spells of a higher level), and most of your new abilities are completely physical. The best way to take advantage of the dragon disciple class is usually to create either a sorcerer multiclassed with a fighting class, or a multi-classed or straight bard. If you do make a multiclassed sorcerer, it's usually not very advantageous to take more than one or two levels. But as I said, it's your character.
Kraguk
12-06-03, 02:06 PM I understand and thank you for the advice, Kastas. However, I'm in an extremely roleplay-heavy group that usually streamlines combat to the point of resolving entire rounds in single dice rolls. I'm taking the template for purely roleplayed reasons. When my character began to realize his draconic heritage, he all but abandoned his arcane excercising in favor of advancing it.

He'll probably become quite irate when he realizes that his transformation is going to stop when he's only halfway there, and might seek supernatural means to complete what he's built up to be his birthright and destiny.

Didn't realize that the DD class made it all the way to the PHB...haven't read 3.5. The few supplemental sources that listed a full transformation are nothing next to the core of the core books.
CDW22
12-07-03, 12:57 AM There is an Epic version on the sight that completes it, I remember reading it, it's just EDD.
Kraguk
12-07-03, 01:07 AM EDD? Whuzzat? I'm interested.
nick012000
12-07-03, 02:14 AM Epic Dragon Disciple (found here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20021208a)), I am guessing, though you don't become a full dragon, though he gets steadily larger, until he might as well be.
catharz
12-07-03, 02:59 AM If your sorceror finishes being a Dragon disciple and wants to become a True dragon, just have him use a ritual from Savage species to trade (for example) 18 of his levels in towards the ECL of a Young bronze dragon.
Yokinobu
12-07-03, 05:24 AM Does anyone know if undergoing the dragon apotheosis changes the alignment of the dragon disciple? I know the half-dragon template states that the bearer of the template has the same alignment as the dragon variety, but I thought changing alignment would be unreasonable, and the class doesn't really mention an alignment change.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
12-07-03, 09:33 AM I dont think that the apotheosis would change the alignment, because it doesn't say so in the description of the PrC. IIRC the alignment of a half-dragon is only usually the same as the parent dragon, so I dont see any reason why it would change your alignemnt.
Starspider
12-07-03, 03:23 PM Originally posted by nick012000
Epic Dragon Disciple (found here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20021208a)), I am guessing, though you don't become a full dragon, though he gets steadily larger, until he might as well be.

Actually, they posted a revised version of the Epic Dragon Disciple in the 3.5 update booklet. It basically gains increases in natural armor and breath weapon strength, but little else (no extra spells or the like).

To be honest, I think the best use of a dragon disciple is a barbarian/sorcerer or ranger/sorcerer, since the spellcasting prereqs are rather low. But that's just me. :cool:
Kraguk
12-07-03, 06:22 PM Interesting, Starspider.

I thought of making my kobold a kind of underground ranger...an engineer and explorer of the warrens and caves that his race and many others take up residence and fortification. I rolled him Method I and he wound up, after modifiers, with 18 dexterity so I thought that might be a way to get him involved in combat. It would also be a pretty good way to get the martial aspect of the bronze dragon (his type) into the roleplay.

If you were going to balance a ranger/sorcerer with 5 levels of dragon disciple, how would you do it? He has a rod of splendor (yeah, a kobold decked out with bling-bling) that raises his charisma to 19, but his phyiscal stats all have pretty good modifiers too.

I definately want to roleplay the dragon disciple aspect of him...does a 9ranger/1sorc/5 DD sound like a decent front-line character (going with the 3.5 writeup of the DD that gets d12 hitpoints per level regardless)?

edit: caught a mechanical error.
nick012000
12-08-03, 03:40 AM Give him a bow. Turn enemies into pincushions.
Kastas
12-08-03, 03:36 PM Originally posted by Kraguk
I definately want to roleplay the dragon disciple aspect of him...does a 9ranger/1sorc/5 DD sound like a decent front-line character (going with the 3.5 writeup of the DD that gets d12 hitpoints per level regardless)?Sounds like a decent build to me. Should be able to hold his own in a fight, despite having a slightly lower BAB than a pure ranger of his level. Like you said, you have a pretty rp-heavy group, so just go with the character concept you like best.
KShaver
12-08-03, 04:15 PM I prefer a moderate number of caster levels before going into dragon disciple, but I still agree it is a melee class. The dragon disciple does get extra spells and the better the caster you are when you pick up DD the more beneficial those bonus spells will be. Also the knowledge arcana requirement is hard to meet with severely limited caster levels, unless you have lot of spare skill points that you can spend cross class on it. I would suggest at least a 4th level sorcerer or bard before picking it up, perhaps 6th, but thats about the upper limit where the tradeoff in BAB and HP becomes less worthwhile for a melee oriented character.
ipsi
12-11-03, 02:49 AM Does the DD, on acquiring the HD Template, also acquire the LA for it? I would have thought not, but the wording is far too ambiguous.
KShaver
12-11-03, 09:17 AM Originally posted by ipsi
Does the DD, on acquiring the HD Template, also acquire the LA for it? I would have thought not, but the wording is far too ambiguous.

It is indeed a bit ambiguous. I would guess the whole point in taking the dragon disciple PRC is to avoid the LA of the template, so I wouldn't force the LA on anyone who gained the template by means of the PRC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kraguk 12-05-03, 10:16 PM	In a D&D campaign that my group is starting in a few weeks, I will be playing a kobold dragon disciple...a sorcerer until 10th level who began manifesting bronze dragon traits and is now a 10 sorc/5 disciple. Since our group plays once a week without almost any interruption and our campaigns last for several months, I predict that he will reach 10 disciple by the end of it all. ...what, in your opinion (or according to the Draconomicon, I'm waiting to buy it this weekend when it's friends and family day at the bookstore) happens when a disciple hits 10th level and undergoes dragon apotheosis? I've read sources that say he becomes a half-dragon, and sources that say he becomes a full dragon. What do you think makes for better gaming, and why? Also...if the character were to become a full dragon...at what stage would he emerge? My kobold is only about 15 or 16 human years old, but by kobold reckoning, adulthood. Would he transform into a young adult dragon since that's what stage of life he's in, or a hatchling/very young stage, because that's what he chronologically would fall under? Would he need to re-enter an egg and let his body reconstruct itself, since the jump from draconic kobold to dragon is quite a big one? If these questions are answered in the book, sorry for wasting space here. I assume they're for individual DMs and PCs to decide. Thanks!
jagggar 12-05-03, 10:39 PM	According to the 3.5 SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/PrestigeClasses.rtf), the dragon apotheosis means the character takes on the half-dragon template.
Kastas 12-06-03, 02:53 AM	I've never read that it transforms a character into a full dragon. Every official source I've seen is pretty explicit about the character changing into a half-dragon. I apologize if I'm out of place by saying this (since it is your character), but I should point out that your intended character build is going to be a bit underpowered, at least in a campaign with a significant amount of combat. The reason for this is that most of a dragon disciple's abilities do not synergize well with those of a typical pure caster; you get only token spell advancement (without even learning spells of a higher level), and most of your new abilities are completely physical. The best way to take advantage of the dragon disciple class is usually to create either a sorcerer multiclassed with a fighting class, or a multi-classed or straight bard. If you do make a multiclassed sorcerer, it's usually not very advantageous to take more than one or two levels. But as I said, it's your character.
Kraguk 12-06-03, 02:06 PM	I understand and thank you for the advice, Kastas. However, I'm in an extremely roleplay-heavy group that usually streamlines combat to the point of resolving entire rounds in single dice rolls. I'm taking the template for purely roleplayed reasons. When my character began to realize his draconic heritage, he all but abandoned his arcane excercising in favor of advancing it. He'll probably become quite irate when he realizes that his transformation is going to stop when he's only halfway there, and might seek supernatural means to complete what he's built up to be his birthright and destiny. Didn't realize that the DD class made it all the way to the PHB...haven't read 3.5. The few supplemental sources that listed a full transformation are nothing next to the core of the core books.
CDW22 12-07-03, 12:57 AM	There is an Epic version on the sight that completes it, I remember reading it, it's just EDD.
Kraguk 12-07-03, 01:07 AM	EDD? Whuzzat? I'm interested.
nick012000 12-07-03, 02:14 AM	Epic Dragon Disciple (found here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20021208a)), I am guessing, though you don't become a full dragon, though he gets steadily larger, until he might as well be.
catharz 12-07-03, 02:59 AM	If your sorceror finishes being a Dragon disciple and wants to become a True dragon, just have him use a ritual from Savage species to trade (for example) 18 of his levels in towards the ECL of a Young bronze dragon.
Yokinobu 12-07-03, 05:24 AM	Does anyone know if undergoing the dragon apotheosis changes the alignment of the dragon disciple? I know the half-dragon template states that the bearer of the template has the same alignment as the dragon variety, but I thought changing alignment would be unreasonable, and the class doesn't really mention an alignment change.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 12-07-03, 09:33 AM	I dont think that the apotheosis would change the alignment, because it doesn't say so in the description of the PrC. IIRC the alignment of a half-dragon is only usually the same as the parent dragon, so I dont see any reason why it would change your alignemnt.
Starspider 12-07-03, 03:23 PM	Originally posted by nick012000 Epic Dragon Disciple (found here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20021208a)), I am guessing, though you don't become a full dragon, though he gets steadily larger, until he might as well be. Actually, they posted a revised version of the Epic Dragon Disciple in the 3.5 update booklet. It basically gains increases in natural armor and breath weapon strength, but little else (no extra spells or the like). To be honest, I think the best use of a dragon disciple is a barbarian/sorcerer or ranger/sorcerer, since the spellcasting prereqs are rather low. But that's just me. :cool:
Kraguk 12-07-03, 06:22 PM	Interesting, Starspider. I thought of making my kobold a kind of underground ranger...an engineer and explorer of the warrens and caves that his race and many others take up residence and fortification. I rolled him Method I and he wound up, after modifiers, with 18 dexterity so I thought that might be a way to get him involved in combat. It would also be a pretty good way to get the martial aspect of the bronze dragon (his type) into the roleplay. If you were going to balance a ranger/sorcerer with 5 levels of dragon disciple, how would you do it? He has a rod of splendor (yeah, a kobold decked out with bling-bling) that raises his charisma to 19, but his phyiscal stats all have pretty good modifiers too. I definately want to roleplay the dragon disciple aspect of him...does a 9ranger/1sorc/5 DD sound like a decent front-line character (going with the 3.5 writeup of the DD that gets d12 hitpoints per level regardless)? edit: caught a mechanical error.
nick012000 12-08-03, 03:40 AM	Give him a bow. Turn enemies into pincushions.
Kastas 12-08-03, 03:36 PM	Originally posted by Kraguk I definately want to roleplay the dragon disciple aspect of him...does a 9ranger/1sorc/5 DD sound like a decent front-line character (going with the 3.5 writeup of the DD that gets d12 hitpoints per level regardless)?Sounds like a decent build to me. Should be able to hold his own in a fight, despite having a slightly lower BAB than a pure ranger of his level. Like you said, you have a pretty rp-heavy group, so just go with the character concept you like best.
KShaver 12-08-03, 04:15 PM	I prefer a moderate number of caster levels before going into dragon disciple, but I still agree it is a melee class. The dragon disciple does get extra spells and the better the caster you are when you pick up DD the more beneficial those bonus spells will be. Also the knowledge arcana requirement is hard to meet with severely limited caster levels, unless you have lot of spare skill points that you can spend cross class on it. I would suggest at least a 4th level sorcerer or bard before picking it up, perhaps 6th, but thats about the upper limit where the tradeoff in BAB and HP becomes less worthwhile for a melee oriented character.
ipsi 12-11-03, 02:49 AM	Does the DD, on acquiring the HD Template, also acquire the LA for it? I would have thought not, but the wording is far too ambiguous.
KShaver 12-11-03, 09:17 AM	Originally posted by ipsi Does the DD, on acquiring the HD Template, also acquire the LA for it? I would have thought not, but the wording is far too ambiguous. It is indeed a bit ambiguous. I would guess the whole point in taking the dragon disciple PRC is to avoid the LA of the template, so I wouldn't force the LA on anyone who gained the template by means of the PRC.