Dragon DR Sucks!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon DR Sucks!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darth_Singe
10-30-06, 09:11 PM okay, so In my years of gaming, PC's have come across hundreds of magical weapons.

Dragons have DR X/Magic.

In 3.5 that means any character with a magic weapon or access to the Magic Weapon spell can overcome a dragons DR.

I think that is Huberhash!

What about all that stuff we hear about this or that being as 'Hard as dragon Scale' or whatever.

Honestly, DR against magic is more easily overcome than DR against Adamantine.

isn't it funny that a non-magical substance is more rarere than magic?

Anyhew, I am wondering if there were any feats and/or articls about this anywhere, and to offer my suggestion of changing the Dragons DR to X/Adamantine.
Karak_Nechot
10-30-06, 09:17 PM Dragons have a huge natural armor bonus. That would be the 'Hard as dragon Scale' part. It actually is hard enough to stop blows better than metal armor.

The DR X/magic is not there to be a obstacle to adventurers of a level high enough to kill the dragon, it's there to keep lower level creatures from hurting the dragon as much. For example, an army of archers easily dropping a dragon with swarms of arrows.

If you give the dragon DR X/adamantine, you will need to increase the CR by 2 or 3, as it will be harder to hurt the dragon with melee or ranged attacks. Dragons already have a lot of defenses, and I don't see them needing any more.
angryman
10-30-06, 09:34 PM Basically, yeah. They have A LOT of natural armour, a very high AC usually and stacks of HP. They have incredibly fast flight and great saves and a breath weapon, spells, fear, multiple attacks and they're very smart. What else do you want?
Darth_Singe
10-30-06, 10:32 PM What else do I want?

A feat or ritual or something that gives dragons DR X/Adamantine (other than a Stoneskin spell)! ;)

I thought about the really high natural armor thing too. I am running armor as DR in my game though, so most of the Armor Bonuses were gimped. And the DR X/- doesn't stack with the X/magic, so dragons are dropping like flies as the pc's simply power attack past the dang DR.

I seriously found a serious flaw in the armor as DR section, in that at Higher levels the DR doesn't make a stangfull of difference if you get hit 5 times in a round due to your poor AC. Basically from watching the pc's take hits, all it does it help you get hit easier and then keep you right about -4 to -8 hp. Better to just run normal armor and not get hit! lol Even with the class AC bonuses I snagged from D20 modern, it just doesn't cut it.

The poor cleric retired his PC because he was sick of doing nothing but run from pc to pc casting cure spells each round.

So, maybe I need to rethink the whole armor as DR thing.....
CroBob
10-31-06, 02:15 AM Your first problem is using AC as damage reduction. I thought it was a neet idea when I first read it, too, but it's simply a horrible way to handle AC in a game designed for armor to be used completely differently.

A dragon already has a mega-bad-ass AC, plus all dragons (of a certain age) are spell-casters. Ad the spell 'shield' and then 'mage armor', and the armor is suddenly significantly higher. In addition, I can't think of why a dragon would lack in other kinds of defensive spells, such as blur, or even blink, plus haste (more armor in addition to the extra attack, by the way). If a dragon knows a group of PCs is coming it's way and has time for a couple spells, the odds could very easily turn against the PCs very quickly. In addition, it could cast spells aiding in attacks, such as shocking grasp and touch of... dead cold, whatever. Hell, if it has enough time, why not all of those (if it knows them)? Give it true strike for an impressive opening power attack, on top of those other spells.

Dragons are no joke, dude.
runestar
10-31-06, 03:44 AM Dragons have DR X/Magic.

In 3.5 that means any character with a magic weapon or access to the Magic Weapon spell can overcome a dragons DR.

I think that is Huberhash!
For which I will be eternally grateful...they are already very tough for their cr, no need to give them another boost...:P
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-31-06, 12:10 PM 3.5 DR doesn't seem to be there to be useful in any way to the creature. Its more or less just there to simulate a supernatural weakness, but doesn't get the job done because either the weakness is exceedingly common (magic weapons) or the DR number is pathetically low (5?! seriously?).

3e DR is much better as long as you ban GMW and ignore the 'weapon pluses trump material dR' rule.
DungeonMaster
10-31-06, 01:21 PM I agree with Val.
I play 3rd edition straight by the book however. One thing I'de like to highlight is that you can always dispel magic-items, including magical weapons.
If you play your dragon correctly it is possible to dispel the weapon then sunder it while it is a non-magical item.
The largest and most powerful dragons can have disjunction at their disposal and I highly suggest they take it if possible.
Powerful demons and devils almost always have dispel magic or greater-dispel (balor) and should use this tactic liberally to neutralise physical threats.
Mirtek
10-31-06, 01:27 PM What about all that stuff we hear about this or that being as 'Hard as dragon Scale' or whatever.
That's the massive natural armor they get
starfire311
10-31-06, 01:38 PM I use a variant DR system

I use 3.5 system with the addition of the following DR types

Magic(minor) requires +1 weapon to overcome
Magic(moderate) requires +2 weapon to overcome
Magic(strong) requires +4 weapon to overcome.

Anyway as my Armor as DR variant also makes dragons a bit more powerful since I convert natural armor to an DR(I call it AR and let it stack with DR) on a 1 for one basis.( it is still balaned due to the overall system, but they get a bit of a power up.

So, in my game an old Red dragon has NAR(natral armor reduction) of 24/- and DR 10/magic(moderate).... They would also have a defense of 36(+16 dodge, +14 parry, -4 size)
LivingShadow
10-31-06, 04:44 PM There is a PrC in Draconumicon that grants DR x/cold iron
Wolf72
10-31-06, 05:32 PM There is a PrC in Draconumicon that grants DR x/cold iron

there is also a feat in that book that gives dragons DR 2/- ... not huge, but if a dragon is hit lots of times it will reduce the damage done significantly.
Priest_of_Shaundakul
10-31-06, 05:34 PM Are you kidding me? Most dragons terrorize villages where they haven't even SEEN a magic item. DR/magic is perfect for them
LivingShadow
10-31-06, 05:56 PM Are you kidding me? Most dragons terrorize villages where they haven't even SEEN a magic item. DR/magic is perfect for them

I doubt that. Their hoards are probibly full of them.
Karak_Nechot
10-31-06, 06:10 PM Villages have hoards of magic weapons?
Bawitda
10-31-06, 06:24 PM Yes. In fact, there are no "peasants" in D&D. They're actually an advanced race of shapeshifters living among all population centers. Adventurers (and villains) are the only true humanoids in the world. The rest are conducting a sociological experiment on a grand scale, keeping the primitive societies functioning through basic labor so that they can observe the effects on the subjects. In their spare time, they create magical items as a hobby, as well as factors in their experiments.

Don't even ask about the cats.
Vanigo
10-31-06, 09:56 PM I agree with Val.
I play 3rd edition straight by the book however. One thing I'de like to highlight is that you can always dispel magic-items, including magical weapons.
If you play your dragon correctly it is possible to dispel the weapon then sunder it while it is a non-magical item.
The largest and most powerful dragons can have disjunction at their disposal and I highly suggest they take it if possible.
Powerful demons and devils almost always have dispel magic or greater-dispel (balor) and should use this tactic liberally to neutralise physical threats.
Problem with that is it tends to take a round for every weapon you want to dispel. Only targetted dispels affect items, remember. In a one-on-four fight, that's usually a round or six that you can't afford to spend. It is sometimes useful, of course, especially if a pimped-out fighter with a two-handed weapon is ripping you a new one, but even then he probably has a less powerful backup weapon.
MDJ bypasses this quite nicely, of course. (It's also completely game-breaking in 3.0, but that's another issue entirely.) With MDJ, though, a dragon's innate greed for treasure comes into play. A dragon powerful enough to cast MDJ is probably smart enough to use it anyway when its life is on the line, of course, but only if it has it. How many dragons are likely to take a spell whose primary purpose is to destroy treasure?
angryman
10-31-06, 10:32 PM Think of it this way: dragons are immune to non magical weapons. That's the basic translation of 20/magic.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-31-06, 10:58 PM Think of it this way: dragons are immune to non magical weapons. That's the basic translation of 20/magic.
The flavor text of it doesn't make the actual mechanic any less useless.
Donraj
10-31-06, 11:10 PM The alternative is to do it the 3.0 way, which effectively meant that anything with damage reduction was invulnerable to physical attacks by anything short of a demigod if the attacker didn't have an appropriate magical weapon. Which was sorta pointless anyway, since any standard party at or near its CR would have said weapons. This way DR offers a very real (five or ten points of damage off of every attack) advantage againts unprepared enemies without being unsurmountable, and its not a pointless quality on the grounds that every enemy strong enough to be a credible challenge will bypass it automatically with their standard gear.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-31-06, 11:14 PM How is a dragon EVER going to run into a party with no magic weapons?
Donraj
11-01-06, 12:03 AM Attack an army outpost? Fight giants? Consider the fact that, game balance aside, not every fighter above a given level will have one?
CroBob
11-01-06, 12:32 AM PCs are not the only things that fight other things. Dragons don't sit around all day waiting for adventurers to come fight it, hoping they don't have magical weapons. They may sit around all day, but that's because they're lazy, long lived, and easy to sustain, not because they expect adventurers, and fight ONLY adventurers, ever. Sometimes they fly around, and then they see something in it's territory that was not there before... and it's NOT the PCs!
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-01-06, 12:38 AM How often do you play those scenarios out in game?

If a monster has DR, that DR should at least have some bearing on combat with said monster. As is, the dragon's DR is just a set piece.

Not even that, because anything that can stand up to a dragon long enough to even be a threat requiring DR can easily pierce its pathetic 10-15 points of DR.
CroBob
11-01-06, 12:53 AM Including the orcish hoard it recently wrested from it's warlord? The horde could have simply outnumbered the monster without that damage reduction, but they lacked magical weapons. It's not something that occures in any scene the players ever see, probably, but it's an important factor in how they act or aquire. It's like a resistance against hordes. How can the dragon control such a huge number of monsters? They can't fight it effectively, so they're forced into serving it.

Does every aspect of a creature important to the adventurers who are fighting it, or do those creatures have lives outside of those adventurers or their precious game balance? Does everything about a creature need to help it in a fight? Sometimes things just are a way, neither helping nor interfering in a specific case.
Azdraugnor
11-01-06, 12:53 AM "PC's, please come save our kingdom from a rampaging dragon!"

"What, can't you just kill it yourself? I mean, you guys have a freaking army. Come on."

"Our arrows cannot penetrate the beast's hide. Only enchanted weapons can truly wound it, and those are in very limited supply, so we need a small group of very skilled combatants with magic weapons... namely, you."

"Okay, fine. But we get to keep the hoard."
Donraj
11-01-06, 12:54 AM How often do you play those scenarios out in game?

Plenty. None of my PCs have magical weapons at the moment, none of them are likely to pick up any anytime soon.

Not even that, because anything that can stand up to a dragon long enough to even be a threat requiring DR can easily pierce its pathetic 10-15 points of DR.

Its an useful advantage, just not an insurmountable one. As its supposed to be.

Bear in mind that the dragon's high AC will cut down on power attacking.
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-01-06, 01:29 AM Including the orcish hoard it recently wrested from it's warlord? The horde could have simply outnumbered the monster without that damage reduction, but they lacked magical weapons. It's not something that occures in any scene the players ever see, probably, but it's an important factor in how they act or aquire. It's like a resistance against hordes. How can the dragon control such a huge number of monsters? They can't fight it effectively, so they're forced into serving it.
Unless out boy's Very Old or Older, his Dr isn't going to do much for him. The average orc warrior deals 2d4+4 and crits on an 18-20 by the SRD. Average damage is only one point shy of breaching DR and the average crit surpasses it by far.

His AC is more of a deciding factor in this.

But if he's a young adult or younger, his AC isn't helping and his DR is doing nothing to protect him from orcs.

So his DR, even in this situation is a non-issue.
CroBob
11-01-06, 03:19 AM It's a non-issue when his DR prevents damage from the average hit? It may not be the deciding factor, no, but dragons have plenty of resources in their abilities besides DR, which is still more than significant here, ignoring the typical attack. If it has any effect at all on the combat, it's working. He's hard to hit, when you do hit you're probably not doing any damage, and then he rears up and breaths on you. Not a motivating situation for an orcish warrior to turn on his current boss. Sure, the horde could turn on him, but at what costs? Why kill so many needlessly? Even when you do start winning, after the piles upon piles of bodies, the dragon takes wing. Half the horde dead, and the dragon's probably gonna return ready to dole out vengeance. Don't forget he can cast spells, adding to his armor and ability to influence his followers.

If the orcish horde had a communal mind, sure, maybe they'd sacrifice half of itself to exscape tyrrany, but let's face facts, the typical orcish warrior doesn't want to get killed in what he views as a futile attempt at his boss (what does he know about the dragon except it's rediculous big and can squash him with barely a thought?). In addition, what's going to happen when this lord is dead? Another one takes over, except this one doesn't live in a cave a mile away, he lives inside the camp, able to spot you goofing off at any time.

Edit; Why would a young dragon attempt such a thing? Dragons tend to have a grasp of the thickness of their armor in comaparison of how hard things swing stuff at them. Orcs don't tend to fight things that can defeat their warlord, anyway. If someone killed your warlord, would the first thing on your mind be to kill him? Did you like your warlord, or did he just boss you around like a brute, and nothing's really gonna change under this guy, so what's it matter??
angryman
11-01-06, 11:03 AM It's not flavour text, it's a 2nd ed. translation. To me (2nd ed) "immune to magic weapons" = 3.5 "20/magic" DR. I didn't say it was useful, I just said that's what it's supposed to represent.
Mindforge
11-01-06, 01:59 PM It's not flavour text, it's a 2nd ed. translation. To me (2nd ed) "immune to magic weapons" = 3.5 "20/magic" DR. I didn't say it was useful, I just said that's what it's supposed to represent.
I agree that this is a direct 2e translation, and it is necessary as so many others have made the valid point about the DR isn't something the players are ever really going to face. But, every creature in 2e that had immune to normal weapons, have large DR X/magic.
On a side note: I just see a chance to make more feats for dragons, changing or modifying their DR.

Unless out boy's Very Old or Older, his Dr isn't going to do much for him. The average orc warrior deals 2d4+4 and crits on an 18-20 by the SRD. Average damage is only one point shy of breaching DR and the average crit surpasses it by far.
His AC is more of a deciding factor in this.
But if he's a young adult or younger, his AC isn't helping and his DR is doing nothing to protect him from orcs.
So his DR, even in this situation is a non-issue.
A young adult dragon has a DR of 5/magic. That means that an orc, that hits its AC of @25 deals 2d4+4 damage, so around 8, that means more that the orcs are only dealing half damage or less to the dragon. An AC of 25 is pretty good, and to crit they are going to have to hit that once. Meaning once in awhile on of them are going to hit a young adult for 3 damage. It's DR in a case like this is very effective, seeing as how they might make a critical threat at that AC, but they are not going to crit it. They are going to deal little damage to the beast.
Metrics (simple):
Orcs will have a +4 melee with their 2d4+4 weapon. (6 -12 damage) modified (1-8 damage with DR)
Dragons have an AC of @25 at young adult. Orcs need a 20 to hit, and another 20 to crit. Rare odds.
Dragons have a DR 5/magic reducing average damage down to 3.

So 100 orcs attack the dragon, (somehow they are able to surround him in melee; ranged they are even worse), so 100 orcs attack, 1 in 20 hit... so 5 hit they have to roll a 20 to crit, 1 in 20 chance.. so we will say one crits, they got lucky.
Average damage before damage reduction: (8-9 avg. each) 34 damage + 16 from the crit = 50 damage
Actual damage taken: 14 + 11 = 25 damage taken
Young adult has @ 152 hit points.
Next Round: Dragon breathes killing the orcs enmasse, taking less damage the next round. The dragon will automatically kill a whole bunch of orcs in one breath dealing a avg min of 10 damage, that is the lowest it would do in some cases on all ones.

Dragon armor is very effective in a situation like this, which should always be simulated if you are going to do it.
Donraj
11-01-06, 03:01 PM If we did that virtually every creature that had damage reduction in 2nd edition would have DR 20/magic or higher, including imps. Which wouldn't make sense now anymore then it did then, which is why they changed it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth_Singe 10-30-06, 09:11 PM	okay, so In my years of gaming, PC's have come across hundreds of magical weapons. Dragons have DR X/Magic. In 3.5 that means any character with a magic weapon or access to the Magic Weapon spell can overcome a dragons DR. I think that is Huberhash! What about all that stuff we hear about this or that being as 'Hard as dragon Scale' or whatever. Honestly, DR against magic is more easily overcome than DR against Adamantine. isn't it funny that a non-magical substance is more rarere than magic? Anyhew, I am wondering if there were any feats and/or articls about this anywhere, and to offer my suggestion of changing the Dragons DR to X/Adamantine.
Karak_Nechot 10-30-06, 09:17 PM	Dragons have a huge natural armor bonus. That would be the 'Hard as dragon Scale' part. It actually is hard enough to stop blows better than metal armor. The DR X/magic is not there to be a obstacle to adventurers of a level high enough to kill the dragon, it's there to keep lower level creatures from hurting the dragon as much. For example, an army of archers easily dropping a dragon with swarms of arrows. If you give the dragon DR X/adamantine, you will need to increase the CR by 2 or 3, as it will be harder to hurt the dragon with melee or ranged attacks. Dragons already have a lot of defenses, and I don't see them needing any more.
angryman 10-30-06, 09:34 PM	Basically, yeah. They have A LOT of natural armour, a very high AC usually and stacks of HP. They have incredibly fast flight and great saves and a breath weapon, spells, fear, multiple attacks and they're very smart. What else do you want?
Darth_Singe 10-30-06, 10:32 PM	What else do I want? A feat or ritual or something that gives dragons DR X/Adamantine (other than a Stoneskin spell)! ;) I thought about the really high natural armor thing too. I am running armor as DR in my game though, so most of the Armor Bonuses were gimped. And the DR X/- doesn't stack with the X/magic, so dragons are dropping like flies as the pc's simply power attack past the dang DR. I seriously found a serious flaw in the armor as DR section, in that at Higher levels the DR doesn't make a stangfull of difference if you get hit 5 times in a round due to your poor AC. Basically from watching the pc's take hits, all it does it help you get hit easier and then keep you right about -4 to -8 hp. Better to just run normal armor and not get hit! lol Even with the class AC bonuses I snagged from D20 modern, it just doesn't cut it. The poor cleric retired his PC because he was sick of doing nothing but run from pc to pc casting cure spells each round. So, maybe I need to rethink the whole armor as DR thing.....
CroBob 10-31-06, 02:15 AM	Your first problem is using AC as damage reduction. I thought it was a neet idea when I first read it, too, but it's simply a horrible way to handle AC in a game designed for armor to be used completely differently. A dragon already has a mega-bad-ass AC, plus all dragons (of a certain age) are spell-casters. Ad the spell 'shield' and then 'mage armor', and the armor is suddenly significantly higher. In addition, I can't think of why a dragon would lack in other kinds of defensive spells, such as blur, or even blink, plus haste (more armor in addition to the extra attack, by the way). If a dragon knows a group of PCs is coming it's way and has time for a couple spells, the odds could very easily turn against the PCs very quickly. In addition, it could cast spells aiding in attacks, such as shocking grasp and touch of... dead cold, whatever. Hell, if it has enough time, why not all of those (if it knows them)? Give it true strike for an impressive opening power attack, on top of those other spells. Dragons are no joke, dude.
runestar 10-31-06, 03:44 AM	Dragons have DR X/Magic. In 3.5 that means any character with a magic weapon or access to the Magic Weapon spell can overcome a dragons DR. I think that is Huberhash! For which I will be eternally grateful...they are already very tough for their cr, no need to give them another boost...:P
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-31-06, 12:10 PM	3.5 DR doesn't seem to be there to be useful in any way to the creature. Its more or less just there to simulate a supernatural weakness, but doesn't get the job done because either the weakness is exceedingly common (magic weapons) or the DR number is pathetically low (5?! seriously?). 3e DR is much better as long as you ban GMW and ignore the 'weapon pluses trump material dR' rule.
DungeonMaster 10-31-06, 01:21 PM	I agree with Val. I play 3rd edition straight by the book however. One thing I'de like to highlight is that you can always dispel magic-items, including magical weapons. If you play your dragon correctly it is possible to dispel the weapon then sunder it while it is a non-magical item. The largest and most powerful dragons can have disjunction at their disposal and I highly suggest they take it if possible. Powerful demons and devils almost always have dispel magic or greater-dispel (balor) and should use this tactic liberally to neutralise physical threats.
Mirtek 10-31-06, 01:27 PM	What about all that stuff we hear about this or that being as 'Hard as dragon Scale' or whatever. That's the massive natural armor they get
starfire311 10-31-06, 01:38 PM	I use a variant DR system I use 3.5 system with the addition of the following DR types Magic(minor) requires +1 weapon to overcome Magic(moderate) requires +2 weapon to overcome Magic(strong) requires +4 weapon to overcome. Anyway as my Armor as DR variant also makes dragons a bit more powerful since I convert natural armor to an DR(I call it AR and let it stack with DR) on a 1 for one basis.( it is still balaned due to the overall system, but they get a bit of a power up. So, in my game an old Red dragon has NAR(natral armor reduction) of 24/- and DR 10/magic(moderate).... They would also have a defense of 36(+16 dodge, +14 parry, -4 size)
LivingShadow 10-31-06, 04:44 PM	There is a PrC in Draconumicon that grants DR x/cold iron
Wolf72 10-31-06, 05:32 PM	There is a PrC in Draconumicon that grants DR x/cold iron there is also a feat in that book that gives dragons DR 2/- ... not huge, but if a dragon is hit lots of times it will reduce the damage done significantly.
Priest_of_Shaundakul 10-31-06, 05:34 PM	Are you kidding me? Most dragons terrorize villages where they haven't even SEEN a magic item. DR/magic is perfect for them
LivingShadow 10-31-06, 05:56 PM	Are you kidding me? Most dragons terrorize villages where they haven't even SEEN a magic item. DR/magic is perfect for them I doubt that. Their hoards are probibly full of them.
Karak_Nechot 10-31-06, 06:10 PM	Villages have hoards of magic weapons?
Bawitda 10-31-06, 06:24 PM	Yes. In fact, there are no "peasants" in D&D. They're actually an advanced race of shapeshifters living among all population centers. Adventurers (and villains) are the only true humanoids in the world. The rest are conducting a sociological experiment on a grand scale, keeping the primitive societies functioning through basic labor so that they can observe the effects on the subjects. In their spare time, they create magical items as a hobby, as well as factors in their experiments. Don't even ask about the cats.
Vanigo 10-31-06, 09:56 PM	I agree with Val. I play 3rd edition straight by the book however. One thing I'de like to highlight is that you can always dispel magic-items, including magical weapons. If you play your dragon correctly it is possible to dispel the weapon then sunder it while it is a non-magical item. The largest and most powerful dragons can have disjunction at their disposal and I highly suggest they take it if possible. Powerful demons and devils almost always have dispel magic or greater-dispel (balor) and should use this tactic liberally to neutralise physical threats. Problem with that is it tends to take a round for every weapon you want to dispel. Only targetted dispels affect items, remember. In a one-on-four fight, that's usually a round or six that you can't afford to spend. It is sometimes useful, of course, especially if a pimped-out fighter with a two-handed weapon is ripping you a new one, but even then he probably has a less powerful backup weapon. MDJ bypasses this quite nicely, of course. (It's also completely game-breaking in 3.0, but that's another issue entirely.) With MDJ, though, a dragon's innate greed for treasure comes into play. A dragon powerful enough to cast MDJ is probably smart enough to use it anyway when its life is on the line, of course, but only if it has it. How many dragons are likely to take a spell whose primary purpose is to destroy treasure?
angryman 10-31-06, 10:32 PM	Think of it this way: dragons are immune to non magical weapons. That's the basic translation of 20/magic.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-31-06, 10:58 PM	Think of it this way: dragons are immune to non magical weapons. That's the basic translation of 20/magic. The flavor text of it doesn't make the actual mechanic any less useless.
Donraj 10-31-06, 11:10 PM	The alternative is to do it the 3.0 way, which effectively meant that anything with damage reduction was invulnerable to physical attacks by anything short of a demigod if the attacker didn't have an appropriate magical weapon. Which was sorta pointless anyway, since any standard party at or near its CR would have said weapons. This way DR offers a very real (five or ten points of damage off of every attack) advantage againts unprepared enemies without being unsurmountable, and its not a pointless quality on the grounds that every enemy strong enough to be a credible challenge will bypass it automatically with their standard gear.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-31-06, 11:14 PM	How is a dragon EVER going to run into a party with no magic weapons?
Donraj 11-01-06, 12:03 AM	Attack an army outpost? Fight giants? Consider the fact that, game balance aside, not every fighter above a given level will have one?
CroBob 11-01-06, 12:32 AM	PCs are not the only things that fight other things. Dragons don't sit around all day waiting for adventurers to come fight it, hoping they don't have magical weapons. They may sit around all day, but that's because they're lazy, long lived, and easy to sustain, not because they expect adventurers, and fight ONLY adventurers, ever. Sometimes they fly around, and then they see something in it's territory that was not there before... and it's NOT the PCs!
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-01-06, 12:38 AM	How often do you play those scenarios out in game? If a monster has DR, that DR should at least have some bearing on combat with said monster. As is, the dragon's DR is just a set piece. Not even that, because anything that can stand up to a dragon long enough to even be a threat requiring DR can easily pierce its pathetic 10-15 points of DR.
CroBob 11-01-06, 12:53 AM	Including the orcish hoard it recently wrested from it's warlord? The horde could have simply outnumbered the monster without that damage reduction, but they lacked magical weapons. It's not something that occures in any scene the players ever see, probably, but it's an important factor in how they act or aquire. It's like a resistance against hordes. How can the dragon control such a huge number of monsters? They can't fight it effectively, so they're forced into serving it. Does every aspect of a creature important to the adventurers who are fighting it, or do those creatures have lives outside of those adventurers or their precious game balance? Does everything about a creature need to help it in a fight? Sometimes things just are a way, neither helping nor interfering in a specific case.
Azdraugnor 11-01-06, 12:53 AM	"PC's, please come save our kingdom from a rampaging dragon!" "What, can't you just kill it yourself? I mean, you guys have a freaking army. Come on." "Our arrows cannot penetrate the beast's hide. Only enchanted weapons can truly wound it, and those are in very limited supply, so we need a small group of very skilled combatants with magic weapons... namely, you." "Okay, fine. But we get to keep the hoard."
Donraj 11-01-06, 12:54 AM	How often do you play those scenarios out in game? Plenty. None of my PCs have magical weapons at the moment, none of them are likely to pick up any anytime soon. Not even that, because anything that can stand up to a dragon long enough to even be a threat requiring DR can easily pierce its pathetic 10-15 points of DR. Its an useful advantage, just not an insurmountable one. As its supposed to be. Bear in mind that the dragon's high AC will cut down on power attacking.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-01-06, 01:29 AM	Including the orcish hoard it recently wrested from it's warlord? The horde could have simply outnumbered the monster without that damage reduction, but they lacked magical weapons. It's not something that occures in any scene the players ever see, probably, but it's an important factor in how they act or aquire. It's like a resistance against hordes. How can the dragon control such a huge number of monsters? They can't fight it effectively, so they're forced into serving it. Unless out boy's Very Old or Older, his Dr isn't going to do much for him. The average orc warrior deals 2d4+4 and crits on an 18-20 by the SRD. Average damage is only one point shy of breaching DR and the average crit surpasses it by far. His AC is more of a deciding factor in this. But if he's a young adult or younger, his AC isn't helping and his DR is doing nothing to protect him from orcs. So his DR, even in this situation is a non-issue.
CroBob 11-01-06, 03:19 AM	It's a non-issue when his DR prevents damage from the average hit? It may not be the deciding factor, no, but dragons have plenty of resources in their abilities besides DR, which is still more than significant here, ignoring the typical attack. If it has any effect at all on the combat, it's working. He's hard to hit, when you do hit you're probably not doing any damage, and then he rears up and breaths on you. Not a motivating situation for an orcish warrior to turn on his current boss. Sure, the horde could turn on him, but at what costs? Why kill so many needlessly? Even when you do start winning, after the piles upon piles of bodies, the dragon takes wing. Half the horde dead, and the dragon's probably gonna return ready to dole out vengeance. Don't forget he can cast spells, adding to his armor and ability to influence his followers. If the orcish horde had a communal mind, sure, maybe they'd sacrifice half of itself to exscape tyrrany, but let's face facts, the typical orcish warrior doesn't want to get killed in what he views as a futile attempt at his boss (what does he know about the dragon except it's rediculous big and can squash him with barely a thought?). In addition, what's going to happen when this lord is dead? Another one takes over, except this one doesn't live in a cave a mile away, he lives inside the camp, able to spot you goofing off at any time. Edit; Why would a young dragon attempt such a thing? Dragons tend to have a grasp of the thickness of their armor in comaparison of how hard things swing stuff at them. Orcs don't tend to fight things that can defeat their warlord, anyway. If someone killed your warlord, would the first thing on your mind be to kill him? Did you like your warlord, or did he just boss you around like a brute, and nothing's really gonna change under this guy, so what's it matter??
angryman 11-01-06, 11:03 AM	It's not flavour text, it's a 2nd ed. translation. To me (2nd ed) "immune to magic weapons" = 3.5 "20/magic" DR. I didn't say it was useful, I just said that's what it's supposed to represent.
Mindforge 11-01-06, 01:59 PM	It's not flavour text, it's a 2nd ed. translation. To me (2nd ed) "immune to magic weapons" = 3.5 "20/magic" DR. I didn't say it was useful, I just said that's what it's supposed to represent. I agree that this is a direct 2e translation, and it is necessary as so many others have made the valid point about the DR isn't something the players are ever really going to face. But, every creature in 2e that had immune to normal weapons, have large DR X/magic. On a side note: I just see a chance to make more feats for dragons, changing or modifying their DR. Unless out boy's Very Old or Older, his Dr isn't going to do much for him. The average orc warrior deals 2d4+4 and crits on an 18-20 by the SRD. Average damage is only one point shy of breaching DR and the average crit surpasses it by far. His AC is more of a deciding factor in this. But if he's a young adult or younger, his AC isn't helping and his DR is doing nothing to protect him from orcs. So his DR, even in this situation is a non-issue. A young adult dragon has a DR of 5/magic. That means that an orc, that hits its AC of @25 deals 2d4+4 damage, so around 8, that means more that the orcs are only dealing half damage or less to the dragon. An AC of 25 is pretty good, and to crit they are going to have to hit that once. Meaning once in awhile on of them are going to hit a young adult for 3 damage. It's DR in a case like this is very effective, seeing as how they might make a critical threat at that AC, but they are not going to crit it. They are going to deal little damage to the beast. Metrics (simple): Orcs will have a +4 melee with their 2d4+4 weapon. (6 -12 damage) modified (1-8 damage with DR) Dragons have an AC of @25 at young adult. Orcs need a 20 to hit, and another 20 to crit. Rare odds. Dragons have a DR 5/magic reducing average damage down to 3. So 100 orcs attack the dragon, (somehow they are able to surround him in melee; ranged they are even worse), so 100 orcs attack, 1 in 20 hit... so 5 hit they have to roll a 20 to crit, 1 in 20 chance.. so we will say one crits, they got lucky. Average damage before damage reduction: (8-9 avg. each) 34 damage + 16 from the crit = 50 damage Actual damage taken: 14 + 11 = 25 damage taken Young adult has @ 152 hit points. Next Round: Dragon breathes killing the orcs enmasse, taking less damage the next round. The dragon will automatically kill a whole bunch of orcs in one breath dealing a avg min of 10 damage, that is the lowest it would do in some cases on all ones. Dragon armor is very effective in a situation like this, which should always be simulated if you are going to do it.
Donraj 11-01-06, 03:01 PM	If we did that virtually every creature that had damage reduction in 2nd edition would have DR 20/magic or higher, including imps. Which wouldn't make sense now anymore then it did then, which is why they changed it.