Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rurik "The Silent" 06-05-05, 08:33 PM	well my friends and i were thinking of playing a dragon campaine, mainly for fun and such, but to be a great wyrm character the ELC is at least 49. Thats what i came up with for a black dragon. I really dont tihnk it should be that high. IMO the ELC should really only be the HD plus i donno...but not as high as it is. When you follow the pattern that is outlined buy the age catagories per HD and such you end up with 37d12 hd and 49 ELC for a Great Wyrm. I dont think it should be a +12. It seems practical but at the upper levels (epic levels) you would be better off not being a dragon then becasue your going to end up under powered in respect to other characters. A great wyrm dragon with a caster lvl of 15 basically is equal to a lvl 20 psyhic warrior. I think for sure a lvl 30 sorcerer coudl take a great wyrm black dragon on its own. Even when you tihnk of the resourses. I think the thing that woudl make them slightly equal is that dragons get liek quadrupul gold becasue they tend to pick on creatures weaker than they are. What does everyone think, do you think the ELC is fine or do you tihnk it is over represenitive? Also do you think it woudl be reasonable for a character to wish to be a dragon? with multipul wishes? Or to develop a spell to become a dragon for a small peroid of time and gain tis abilitiys...i donno if there is a spell for that or not. But ive always wanted to play a black dragon and if i can't im just going to play a sorcerer then wish to be one eventually or develope the spell to be one.
RavenDrake 06-05-05, 10:35 PM	Ok... ECL takes into account many things. Hit Dice is first (37HD, for a Dragon, means +37 base Melee, and +20 all Three saves). That's a Huge bonus, especially since Dragons get all good saves. Added to that is thier (equivient)Level Adjustment, based on special abilities: Great Wyrms are Gargantuan, which gives EMMENSE bonuses to Grapple checks. They cast spells as a 15th level Sorcerer They have massive ability scores, especially in Str and Con They have a Natural Armour bonus half again the AC bonus of +5 Full Plate and a +5 Shield. They have a very powerful breath weapon. They have multiple Spell-Like abilities. They have Spell Resistance. All told, I'd say a +12 LA is being Generous. I have nothing to base your comparison of a Psychic warrior off of as I avoid Psionic stuff like the plague, however, Your assertion that a 30th Sorcerer could take a Great Wyrm Black dragon is flawed... a dragon, with it's plethora of abilities, could probably take a solo sorcerer, even an epic one, simply by charging him and grappling him till he was mush. You have to remember, that ECL is balanced for bringing that creature into a 4 person party, and making it equal to the Challenge rating(ie, 4 great wyrm dragons, in a party, is the PC equivilent to an encounter level of 42). All told, I'd say that was more than fair.
Sildatorak 06-05-05, 10:43 PM	They have a Natural Armour bonus half again the AC bonus of +5 Full Plate and a +5 Shield. They also have the funds to get +5 full plate and +5 animated shield crafted for them. A good chunk of power boost applies to creatures when they have some control over the gear they get instead of relying on random rolls on a chart.
Lusiphur 06-05-05, 11:54 PM	Agreed, when you look at the bonuses included in the LA +12, it really IS a generous LA. the one that stands out first to me, 15 LEVELS OF SORCERER! lol ANY sorcerer would give up 12 levels to gain 15 in return. Not to mention EVERYTHING ELSE lol In my experiences, people tend to downplay the sheer power of dragons when throwing them against parties. The Draconomicon is a neat idea, but anyone playing a dragon to its fullest potential should have NO trouble walking all over a party of similar level with a dragon straight out of the MM. Unless of course the party is monty hauled or something of that sort... but thats for another time. Either way, i believe that the dragon ECL is pretty good.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-06-05, 02:15 AM	There's no such thing as a free lunch. +12 LA is generous to say the least. Wishing to be a dragon. No. Again I say that there's no such thing as a free lunch. And a spell to become one for a short while? It's called shapechange.
Derren S. 06-06-05, 03:06 AM	Yes, the ECl is too high. Thats the case for all monsters. This way WotC wants to promote normal characters, by making monsters weaker than them. Compare your ECL 49 Great Wyrm to a Lvl 49 wizard or cleric. The dragon is not nearly as powerful as the cleric.
DuskyFruit 06-06-05, 07:29 AM	Originally posted by: Derren S. Compare your ECL 49 Great Wyrm to a Lvl 49 wizard or cleric. The dragon is not nearly as powerful as the cleric. No a great wyrm black dragon is not as powerful as a lvl. 49 cleric, but a great wyrm black dragon who get to roll his ability scores, get access to epic feats and have the starting equipment of a lvl. 49 character will beat the cleric easily.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-06-05, 07:36 AM	Yes, the ECl is too high. Thats the case for all monsters. This way WotC wants to promote normal characters, by making monsters weaker than them. Any PC who plays a non standard race I still allow to roll ability scores, and then apply those (-10) to the standard scores of that race to reflect them being a PC, much as how Joe Human PC gets to have his own rolled scores rather than the 10s of his race.
Derren S. 06-06-05, 07:52 AM	Even with rolled stats and equipment the human will be better than the dragon. The benefits of levels is just to graet (except fighter) than what dragon HD give you.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-06-05, 10:29 AM	No a great wyrm black dragon is not as powerful as a lvl. 49 cleric, but a great wyrm black dragon who get to roll his ability scores, get access to epic feats and have the starting equipment of a lvl. 49 character will beat the cleric easily. No. It will not. You lose the internet.
Sarig the Genie 06-06-05, 10:36 AM	But if you and your friends are going to play in a dragon campaign, I assume that means you're all going to be dragons? In that case, does it really matter how the ECL compares to normal characters?
Kurama Youko 06-06-05, 11:18 AM	Do I believe the LA for my favorite creatures is to high? No. But then again I have not been in any campaigns where character started out high enough to play them (In great wyrm stage.)
DarknessEternal 06-07-05, 09:38 AM	Compare your ECL 49 Great Wyrm to a Lvl 49 wizard or cleric. The dragon is not nearly as powerful as the cleric. I think you should re-read the rules for some of a dragon's abilities before believing this statement, particularly their crush attack.
Derren S. 06-07-05, 11:58 AM	And you really think a Lvl 49 character has no teleport or Freedom of Movement items/abilities? And as the BAB is also figures into Grapple checks, a Lvl 49 fighter would have a higher chance to grapple than the dragon.
Rurik "The Silent" 06-07-05, 12:55 PM	personally i think a full equipted dragon would lose against a lvl 30-35 sorcerer. If the dragon is role played they generally don't wear armor. They will maybe have magical equiptment but normally its just in the hoard. But lets say we are up against a greay wyrm dragon. The CR is 22ish...the sorcerer is lvl 32 ish....the dragons spell resistance is somewhere in the 30's. Thats a joke for a sorcerer at this level. The sorcerer will win initiative, becasue of higher dex, and he will generally be more prepared becasue he is the invader and will know when he is attacking so might have several other buffs. The dragon will also have defenses ready but he can't prepare for sometihng hes not ready for, parse. Round 1. Sorcerer casts Assassy resistance getting a +10 on his caster lvl check to over come spell resistance (swift action spell), then the sorcerer proceeds to throw a death spell, probally heightened to +9th lvl. Or even throw some epic level death spell at it. Presuming a lvl 30 sorcerer with a 30 Cha and 10th lvl spell DC Spell focus and greater spell focus necromancy. (quite common in my opinion) 10 + 10 + 10 + 2= 32 DC or die. And that in my opinion is low, most sorcerers will have it Cha above 30. And if arch mage maybe have spell power additions. The dragon has a total save of maybe +40 some ish for fort. The Point is the dragon si going to have a challenge. Dragons turn (if he saves) Proceed to charge the sorcerer and either use breath weapon or spell. Probally breath weapon becasue its a lone opponent. Or who knows he might run seeing this as too dangerous. If the breath weapon hits the sorcerer dies...unless he prepared and is immune to this type of dragons breath. Being the one who intiated the attack i woudl presume he is. So the sorcerer gets tackled and killed. Unless he has a contigiency. So either coudl win in the first round of the match. but i think the sorcerer has the upper hand. I don't think the dragon woudl survive a Twined Disentegrate spell from a lvl 30 sorcerer though. I think the Dragon has a high ELC for reasons and i know this. Well i shoudl say LA spacifically. But after lvl 20 i don't think it makes much of a difference. I agree a lvl 40 cleric woudl go to town against a great wrym black dragon. a CR 22ish. So when facing an opponent of neat its on hit die the dragons don't look so hot. I agree that dragons are down played a lot in campaines (always spell that wrong). but even a dragon played well i don't think could would have the odds in his favor comming up against a sorcerer going out with the spacific intent to kill him. I wonder if we role played it out. how that would turn out, the sorcerer having to research the dragon then go find him in a swamp and such. The dragon might kill him before he gets there, might not. And he might even catch the draogn off gaurd, might but might not. Who knows.
Stormonu 06-07-05, 04:13 PM	Your reasoning is flawed. If you were to stat up a PC Great Wyrm Gold and a level 49 Sorcerer, using the same base ability scores, it'd be a lot closer than you think. In a fight, with both starting out flat-footed, I'd probably put my money on the dragon. Even if you allowed the sorcerer to precast some defensive spells (and you'd then have to let the dragon PC do so as well), the fight would be fairly close, and again I'd put my money on the dragon. I think the ECL/LA is pretty fair. The dragon PC can use it's breath weapon any time it wants (with a short wait) and that's pretty powerful in itself. Add in the thing has a huge amount of d12 hit dice AND sorceror levels AND spell resistance AND best saves on everything AND the BAB of a fighter AND natural armor AND flies AND causes fear, and you're looking at some game powerful abilities. Think of it as a sorcerer in plate mail who gets a free fighter level every time he levels up and casts a free Dispel Magic every time a spell is cast at him, (not even counting the fact those who face him have to make Fear checks...) and I'm sure you can see why the LA is so high. I mean, the sorceror may run out of spells in a single adventure, but the dragon can keep using its breath weapon indefinately, it's spell resistance never goes away, it can't be disarmed of its weapon nor will it be caught without it's armor and its fear effect never fades....
Count Arioch the 28th 06-07-05, 09:00 PM	Epic spells. Sorceror wins.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-08-05, 12:53 AM	Compare your ECL 49 Great Wyrm to a Lvl 49 wizard or cleric. The dragon is not nearly as powerful as the cleric. Had you not used the 2nd and 3rd most powerful classes in the game as an example, you may have had a point. Try a rogue. Those are generally considered to be the most balanced core class in the game.
Wilds 06-08-05, 12:43 PM	totally off the current topic, if your going to play a dragon campagin, dragon magazine has 2 issues that deal with 20 level character builds for dragons. they seemed balanced, due to their extremely slow age progession in the class and the lack of other abilities.
DarknessEternal 06-08-05, 03:07 PM	Once you increase a dragon's CR by advanced age categories to 49, he'd be unstoppable. He'd have more epic feats and spells than any humanoid PC, more hit points, unbeatable saves and DCs, and an unhittable AC.
DuskyFruit 06-09-05, 05:13 AM	personally i think a full equipted dragon would lose against a lvl 30-35 sorcerer. If the dragon is role played they generally don't wear armor. They will maybe have magical equiptment but normally its just in the hoard. But lets say we are up against a greay wyrm dragon. The CR is 22ish...the sorcerer is lvl 32 ish....the dragons spell resistance is somewhere in the 30's. Thats a joke for a sorcerer at this level. The sorcerer will win initiative, becasue of higher dex, and he will generally be more prepared becasue he is the invader and will know when he is attacking so might have several other buffs. The dragon will also have defenses ready but he can't prepare for sometihng hes not ready for, parse. Round 1. Sorcerer casts Assassy resistance getting a +10 on his caster lvl check to over come spell resistance (swift action spell), then the sorcerer proceeds to throw a death spell, probally heightened to +9th lvl. Or even throw some epic level death spell at it. Presuming a lvl 30 sorcerer with a 30 Cha and 10th lvl spell DC Spell focus and greater spell focus necromancy. (quite common in my opinion) 10 + 10 + 10 + 2= 32 DC or die. And that in my opinion is low, most sorcerers will have it Cha above 30. And if arch mage maybe have spell power additions. The dragon has a total save of maybe +40 some ish for fort. The Point is the dragon si going to have a challenge. Dragons turn (if he saves) Proceed to charge the sorcerer and either use breath weapon or spell. Probally breath weapon becasue its a lone opponent. Or who knows he might run seeing this as too dangerous. If the breath weapon hits the sorcerer dies...unless he prepared and is immune to this type of dragons breath. Being the one who intiated the attack i woudl presume he is. So the sorcerer gets tackled and killed. Unless he has a contigiency. What makes you think the sorcerer gets to ambush the dragon? This is an wandering adventuring dragon, not a hoard guarding dragon, the dragon might as well ambush the sorcerer, and if the dragon throws the twined disintegrate spell as the first one or counter the sorcerer's spell or have some disintegrate immunity equipment, the sorcerer wouldn't stand a chance against the dragon, or what if the sorcerer flees from the dragon's frightful presence, a dragon like this one is going to have at least 38 cha (and probably more), that means a DC 51 will save for frightful presence (at the minimum) not every epic level sorcerer would be able to handle that.
Derren S. 06-09-05, 05:35 AM	You are talking about a Lvl 49 Sorcerer. As he has mor HD than the dragon he is immun against the frightfull presence and probaly is immun to all no epic spells anyway (Permanent Emmanation + AMF + Ward from AMF)
Count Arioch the 28th 06-09-05, 08:09 AM	Once you increase a dragon's CR by advanced age categories to 49, he'd be unstoppable. He'd have more epic feats and spells than any humanoid PC, more hit points, unbeatable saves and DCs, and an unhittable AC. Actually, no. He'd be eating a double digit LA and would have much, much less of the things you mentioned than a noraml PC.
Rurik "The Silent" 06-09-05, 03:57 PM	Your reasoning is flawed. If you were to stat up a PC Great Wyrm Gold and a level 49 Sorcerer, using the same base ability scores, it'd be a lot closer than you think. In a fight, with both starting out flat-footed, I'd probably put my money on the dragon. Even if you allowed the sorcerer to precast some defensive spells (and you'd then have to let the dragon PC do so as well), the fight would be fairly close, and again I'd put my money on the dragon. I think the ECL/LA is pretty fair. The dragon PC can use it's breath weapon any time it wants (with a short wait) and that's pretty powerful in itself. Add in the thing has a huge amount of d12 hit dice AND sorceror levels AND spell resistance AND best saves on everything AND the BAB of a fighter AND natural armor AND flies AND causes fear, and you're looking at some game powerful abilities. Think of it as a sorcerer in plate mail who gets a free fighter level every time he levels up and casts a free Dispel Magic every time a spell is cast at him, (not even counting the fact those who face him have to make Fear checks...) and I'm sure you can see why the LA is so high. I mean, the sorceror may run out of spells in a single adventure, but the dragon can keep using its breath weapon indefinately, it's spell resistance never goes away, it can't be disarmed of its weapon nor will it be caught without it's armor and its fear effect never fades.... Well first things first... Flat footed has nothing to do with initiative and who goes first so that doesn't matter. and im not talking about Gold dragons. I am in agreement they are much stronger than the dragon we are talking about. Black. As for the CR 49 dragon...this is what i was gettign at with my first post. A lvl 49 PC character could be a Great Wyrm Black dragon. But a CR 49 dragon would go to town with the Great Wyrm when they should be the same difficulty when you look at the CR to ELC chart. A lvl 49 should be able to go head to head with a CR 49. but in this case it can't. As for the person who said a roge as an example...I think a lvl 49 rogue would beat the dragon becasue i don;t think the dragon would find him/her. Blindsense be damned, there are ways around that. And even if the rogue won't be able to kill it quickly (but it might), he might be able to annoy it enough to make it go away thus ending the encounter. But the rogue doesn't stand a chance unless they are resorseful.
Derren S. 06-09-05, 04:08 PM	The spell resistence is useless. At ECL 49 you encounter enemeis which caster level is way higher than the SR the dragon gets so their spells never fail. Breath weapon is nice, but at this high level direct damage is the weakest option availiable to defeat an enemy. The natural armor wouldn't matter much as the attack bonus reached unimaginable heights at this level and the natural weapons of the dragon are probably the weakest weapons of the party whose weapons all have +15 enchantments. Yeah, the fear effect is nice. It gives the enemies a -2 to rolls. What a great power at Lvl 49.
Rurik "The Silent" 06-09-05, 04:14 PM	The spell resistence is useless. At ECL 49 you encounter enemeis which caster level is way higher than the SR the dragon gets so their spells never fail. Breath weapon is nice, but at this high level direct damage is the weakest option availiable to defeat an enemy. The natural armor wouldn't matter much as the attack bonus reached unimaginable heights at this level and the natural weapons of the dragon are probably the weakest weapons of the party whose weapons all have +15 enchantments. Yeah, the fear effect is nice. It gives the enemies a -2 to rolls. What a great power at Lvl 49. exactly what i think. In my opinion the dragon gets some nice abilities. Yes i agree. But by the time you have them they are useless unless your trying to kill people with less HD than you have. So with a black dragon that means your ELC is 49 but you woudl likely be fighting parties of lvl 22-26 characters. Byond that i don't think they have much of a chance. Likely even a party of seasoned veterans at lvl 18 could take the dragon. Blacks at least.
Derren S. 06-09-05, 04:18 PM	22-25? Rather Lvl/CR 30-40 up to CR 50.
snowlynx 06-09-05, 04:28 PM	I don't know about the +12 LA. I can say this though: a dragon gets the same wealth as a PC of the same level. A dragon equipped with armor (no shield, unless they want it animated) has a VERY buff AC. A dragon can also wear many other magical items (amulets, rings, and so on.) Because they are equipped so well, and if you give them access to advance in character classes, they are not as bad off as a simple dragon in the monster manual. Consider NOT playing a great wyrm, and instead playing a adult or older dragon with some class levels....particularily since the sorcerer casting ability and other things you got out of your hit dice may help qualify a dragon to go straight into prestige classes, ignoring base classes.
Slagger the Chuul 06-10-05, 01:39 AM	As he has mor HD than the dragon he is immun against the frightfull presence and probaly is immun to all no epic spells anyway (Permanent Emmanation + AMF + Ward from AMF) Being warded against a spell that emanates from you sounds like a good way to make sure that the spell doesn't ever work.
Derren S. 06-10-05, 02:05 PM	Thats not how it works. The spell still works, you are just immun to the effect.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-10-05, 03:16 PM	Eh, since epic is a clusterkumquat, I'm not going to argue. It sounds like something that shouldn't exist, but I'm not good with epic rules, I find them needlessly complicated.
Rurik "The Silent" 06-18-05, 01:19 PM	Eh, since epic is a clusterkumquat, I'm not going to argue. It sounds like something that shouldn't exist, but I'm not good with epic rules, I find them needlessly complicated. i agree