Dragon Empire [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Empire [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tovam
02-06-04, 02:03 PM If a dragon would decide to make an army of other dragons (different kinds), what kind of dragon would do it?

No good dragons would do it, they would only ask for help

Black dragons prefer to be on their own
Blue dragons might try it with other blue dragons, but wouldn't dare to even suggest it to other kinds
Green dragons are to aggressif
Red dragons might be ale to try it, but they will never be followed by lawfull dragons
White dragons are to weak and stupid (for a dragon)

Abyssal drakes probably don't care much about the material plane
Dracolichs would gather only skeletal and zombie dragons
Planar dragons, gostly dragons and shadow dragons don't care about the material plane either
...

So, would any existing dragons try to rule over all the other (evil) kinds?
(I just want to hear about your oppinions, it's not to taunt players, so it doesn't need to be balanced)
Charles Phipps
02-06-04, 02:27 PM "Common" Dragon stereotypes do not necessarily mean that individual dragons cannot be a variant truly.

Blue Dragons are the Evil Inverse of Silver Dragons and as such would happily build a society where Dragons ruled over lesser races. If there was an ungawdly powerful Blue Dragon like Skie was from DragonlanceTM then you have one who is perfectly suited for dominating even Red Dragons.

Red Dragons it should be noted might produce a Lawful Evil Dragon sometime (look at Tiamat) and that dragon might be able to foster a number of his own kind over the years in a lawful heritage overcoming their natural inclinations towards chaos.

Perhaps even using spells to dominate his lesser kind, after all a Chaotic Evil Dragon can still be an Emperor if he has enough force to back him up (Emperor Palpatine for instance over the LE Empire-he was capricious and cackling mad in his actions)

Green Dragons and others similiarly.

Ironically though in my game the "Great Dragon Empire" was undertaken by a Gold Dragon. The Gold Dragon imagined an enlightened civilization where Dragons were able to keep human beings and other races in line and teach them goodness.

He just weighed the 'Greater good' of his people's security vs. the necessity of conquering all the world's kingdoms that were in a sorry state at present. He made overtures to the Chromatic Dragons as in my game the relationship between them was a state of war but an enlightened one

I.e. Dragons war on Dragons but no other race is entitled to.

While the Chromatics tried many times to kill the Gold Dragon "Emperor" they nevertheless worked together and soon conquered the continent
Kayli
02-11-04, 05:16 AM You Make some Good Points, Any Individual Dragon that has achieved greater power then his/her peers could attempt to form an Empire and this applies to Good as well as Evil. After all empire building is not inherantly evil.

You had the Right Idea with the Chaos Ruling Law analagy but Your refrence is incorect, Palpatine (I am asuming you mean from Star Wars) was not Chaotic. He planted seeds in the minds of his lesser peers and associates and then waited (some times for decades) for them to germinate into the Forest that was his Empire. A Chaotic Person can certainly Scheme, but they would sooner Rip a tree and transplant it then wait (possibly decades) for their seeds to grow. A better example would be Nero or Caligula form the Roman Empire. They were definetly Chaotic, and Rome was Definetly Lawful.

It Shuold also be important to Note that those reigns were short ones. A Chaotic Emperor of a Lawful Nation is not Long for this World. The opposit could also be said.

If you Had a Chotic Dragon Overlord in a Mostly Lawful Nation You could Start the Campaign with His/Her Recent Assassination and the Ensuing Power Struggle over who gets the Seat of Power.

The Romans make a great Resourse for this since they did it on a fairly regular basis.

And again any Dragon (good or bad) that had the Power to impose his/her will on the others would form an Empire if they wanted too badly enough.
darkkender
02-11-04, 12:04 PM well if you want a great description of how a Dragon Empire might work go to your local bookstore and try to find the Dragonstar campaign setting by FFG it's a bit futuristic but you can probably port the concept and type of theme into a planet based setting maybe even going extraplanar and there you go.
Kain Darkwind
02-11-04, 12:40 PM I'll second that. Dragonstar is the only series of books I have bought with absolutely NO intention of playing in the campaign setting....I just love the flavor. Its a great setting, and Fanatasy Flight Games has a lot of unique extra rules that add variety to the game, but aren't required if you want to leave them out. In fact, after reading all of them, I actually did want to play there.
Althalus
02-11-04, 12:58 PM There have been a few cases down through the centuries were Dragons have had Empires. Such as in the Beggining, when the Creator race waged war aqainst their Draconic cousins. In most recent history, around 430 D.R. (I think), a Radiant Dragon gathered a small army of goodly dragons to help stop the growing numbers of evil dragons somewhere on Faerun.
Lankin the Mad Mage
02-13-04, 05:34 AM I've been designing a dragon empire for roughly a year and a half now for use in ym campaign, and I easily decided that the only dragon fit to rule all the other was:

THE PRISMATIC DRAGON

After all, it is ALL the colors, and it can be any alignment. I wrote it up that he was severd by a group of haughty yet subservient (to him) force dragons. Below them is the different "houses" or groups of dragons, one for each color.
Naga_Slayer
02-13-04, 09:38 AM I like how the Irda think in DL. The leader of their people is neither the strongest nor the smartest. He's just average. This makes sense to some degree. So, naturally, a Gem Dragon would be suited to rule since they are neutral and neither terribly powerful, yet terribly weak.
Lankin the Mad Mage
02-14-04, 06:37 AM Originally posted by Althalus
There have been a few cases down through the centuries were Dragons have had Empires. Such as in the Beggining, when the Creator race waged war aqainst their Draconic cousins. In most recent history, around 430 D.R. (I think), a Radiant Dragon gathered a small army of goodly dragons to help stop the growing numbers of evil dragons somewhere on Faerun.

Where was this? Dragonlance, Greyhawk, FR, your own setting, your DM's setting, Ravenloft, Dark Sun or other? You seem to be talking about a specific place and history.
Kayli
02-14-04, 10:54 AM Lankin the Mad Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Althalus
There have been a few cases down through the centuries were Dragons have had Empires. Such as in the Beggining, when the Creator race waged war aqainst their Draconic cousins. In most recent history, around 430 D.R. (I think), a Radiant Dragon gathered a small army of goodly dragons to help stop the growing numbers of evil dragons somewhere on Faerun.

Where was this? Dragonlance, Greyhawk, FR, your own setting, your DM's setting, Ravenloft, Dark Sun or other? You seem to be talking about a specific place and history.

Too Things:

1: The Time Line is Presented in DR. DR stands for "Dale Reckoning." Only the Forgotten Realms Setting uses this timeline

2: Althalus Specifically Mentions Faerun. Faerun is Forgotten Realms Setting.

The Setting was Pretty Self explanatory.
SpellBinder
02-16-04, 01:10 AM Lankin, don't know how much you know of the Dark Sun setting, but in 2ndEd there were no true dragons as they're portrayed in the other game settings. Athasian dragons were powerful psychics and wizards, either human or half elf originally who had reached 20th level in both psionicist and defiler and then underwent the equivelant of a PrC to transform into a dragon (nothing like the dragon deciple PrC). In some ways they were much more powerful than the classic dragon, but never really enough to create an army of them. Considering things, they could be a small army unto themselves.

If I remember right, there were 15 dragon kings (this includes the women), though one of them was replaced at one point. If you had the Black Water adventure, then there was a 16th dragon (technically not a dragon king, but advancing as a dragon anyway). By numbers alone, not enough for an army.
Lankin the Mad Mage
02-16-04, 05:24 AM I was just being slightly peeved. I get annoyed when people automatically assume that anything posted on the boards is automatically set in FR. Some people think that FR is the only setting in existence, and it gets on my nerves sometimes.

My apologies.
Kayli
02-16-04, 12:10 PM As was Said earlier, any Dragon that was heads and feet more powerfull than any of the others could form a Dragon Empire, even if they were good, their force of will could compell meny good dragonss, and their force of Might could compell the Evil ones to join in.

One could start with an Advanced Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (With a dozen or more Virtuall Age Catagory's) and Apply the Paragon Template to Him. This would Make him SigFig More Powerfull then any other Dragon Out there.

Then du to his Mating Habit, He Has Several Wyrm (or Even Great Wyrm) Dragons as his Life Mates (as Lawfull Dragons are Wont to do) Right there he has a ready made army even if you don't include all those possible children.

One could also give him the Feats Leadership, and Epic Leadership just to show that he has the Requisite Personallity to Attract followers to his cause and to give direction to others.

Then when it is time he shows up with a few of his consorts and maybe a few of his kids to a Dragons lair and say's "This land is claimed in the name of the Empire of X, Swear your Fealty To Me your Lord or be Bannished forever!" All those bonus' to Diplomacy that the Paragon Template add will make it pretty easy for him to nogotiate other Dragons into joining his Empire. Conversely those Bonus' will also make it pretty easy for him to intimidate other dragons into joining with him as well. Don't forget the dozen dragons that are waiting outside in case of a fight.

Poof! In no time he has a Dragon Empire with all other Dragons bowing before his majesty or they are Bannished from his kingdom, or killed if they resist.

And there is nothing about this methodology that would require one to be evil. All this could be for the greater good of Dragon Society.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-16-04, 04:45 PM A sufficiently motivated Dragon could breed an army of Half-Dragons and Draconic creatures, and use -them- as his legion. For exemple, a Red Dragon fosters a tribe of Orcs and Ogres for his legion: He breeds with the strongest and smartest of the tribe, fathering Half-Red Dragon Orc and Ogre children, who rise to the top of the Tribe's leadership. These half-dragon in turn breed with others of the Tribe, fathering Draconic Orcs and Ogres...

Within a few generations, the Red Dragon has a legion of Draconic Orcs and Ogres at his command, with elite Half-Red Dragons to command it. He's litterally Fathered an Army.

Alternatively, I always figured that Dragonkin made for perfect Servitors for the Dragons, especially if combined with the Half-Dragon template.
Kayli
02-16-04, 06:01 PM Creating Hordes of Half dragons isn't very easy for Evil Dagons considering that none of them gain the Alternate Form Special Ability and must use magic to do so. Most Good Dragons on the other hand can do so as a special ability when they are wyrmlings :D

Black Dragons cant polymorph until they are Very Old
Blue not until Old
Green not until old
Red not until Mature Adult
White not until Ancient

But then for their army to be large enough to compell other dragons to submit it would have to be very large indeed, so we are talking about several generations before the army would be large enough though breeding half dragons. and even then the Children of Half Dragons are not neccissarily going to be full fledged half dragons themselves. After all most Sorcerers claim to be descended from dragons, but very few are half dragons. It would be better if he were truely ancient, With Full Blooded Dragon Children to Lead as Generals in his Army. The Concerted Action of Several Dragons Acting under one authority would be hard to resist even by other dragons.

PS: I have a Half Dragon Charecter who is Planing on Gathering as meny half Dragons as she can under her Banner to Creat a mighty army "the likes of which the world has never seen before." So far I have the Leadership, Epic Leader ship and Dragon Cohort feat. I am waiting to get Epic Reputation so that the # of H-Dragons I can gather will be enough to make a sig-fig difference and not just be one or two liutenants.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-16-04, 07:39 PM Originally posted by Kayli
Creating Hordes of Half dragons isn't very easy for Evil Dagons considering that none of them gain the Alternate Form Special Ability and must use magic to do so. Most Good Dragons on the other hand can do so as a special ability when they are wyrmlings :D

Black Dragons cant polymorph until they are Very Old
Blue not until Old
Green not until old
Red not until Mature Adult
White not until Ancient

But then for their army to be large enough to compell other dragons to submit it would have to be very large indeed, so we are talking about several generations before the army would be large enough though breeding half dragons. and even then the Children of Half Dragons are not neccissarily going to be full fledged half dragons themselves. After all most Sorcerers claim to be descended from dragons, but very few are half dragons. It would be better if he were truely ancient, With Full Blooded Dragon Children to Lead as Generals in his Army. The Concerted Action of Several Dragons Acting under one authority would be hard to resist even by other dragons.

Well, even a Mature Adult Red Dragon still has near 1000 years to execute it's plans. Considering the short lifespans of most humanoid races, that leaves it enough time to continue breeding it's army, which could now include full-blooded dragon children raised to serve as the Ruling dragon's army, lording over Half-Dragon officers (most of which bred by the full dragons themselves) who would lord over the Draconic Warriors, breeding with them...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tovam 02-06-04, 02:03 PM	If a dragon would decide to make an army of other dragons (different kinds), what kind of dragon would do it? No good dragons would do it, they would only ask for help Black dragons prefer to be on their own Blue dragons might try it with other blue dragons, but wouldn't dare to even suggest it to other kinds Green dragons are to aggressif Red dragons might be ale to try it, but they will never be followed by lawfull dragons White dragons are to weak and stupid (for a dragon) Abyssal drakes probably don't care much about the material plane Dracolichs would gather only skeletal and zombie dragons Planar dragons, gostly dragons and shadow dragons don't care about the material plane either ... So, would any existing dragons try to rule over all the other (evil) kinds? (I just want to hear about your oppinions, it's not to taunt players, so it doesn't need to be balanced)
Charles Phipps 02-06-04, 02:27 PM	"Common" Dragon stereotypes do not necessarily mean that individual dragons cannot be a variant truly. Blue Dragons are the Evil Inverse of Silver Dragons and as such would happily build a society where Dragons ruled over lesser races. If there was an ungawdly powerful Blue Dragon like Skie was from DragonlanceTM then you have one who is perfectly suited for dominating even Red Dragons. Red Dragons it should be noted might produce a Lawful Evil Dragon sometime (look at Tiamat) and that dragon might be able to foster a number of his own kind over the years in a lawful heritage overcoming their natural inclinations towards chaos. Perhaps even using spells to dominate his lesser kind, after all a Chaotic Evil Dragon can still be an Emperor if he has enough force to back him up (Emperor Palpatine for instance over the LE Empire-he was capricious and cackling mad in his actions) Green Dragons and others similiarly. Ironically though in my game the "Great Dragon Empire" was undertaken by a Gold Dragon. The Gold Dragon imagined an enlightened civilization where Dragons were able to keep human beings and other races in line and teach them goodness. He just weighed the 'Greater good' of his people's security vs. the necessity of conquering all the world's kingdoms that were in a sorry state at present. He made overtures to the Chromatic Dragons as in my game the relationship between them was a state of war but an enlightened one I.e. Dragons war on Dragons but no other race is entitled to. While the Chromatics tried many times to kill the Gold Dragon "Emperor" they nevertheless worked together and soon conquered the continent
Kayli 02-11-04, 05:16 AM	You Make some Good Points, Any Individual Dragon that has achieved greater power then his/her peers could attempt to form an Empire and this applies to Good as well as Evil. After all empire building is not inherantly evil. You had the Right Idea with the Chaos Ruling Law analagy but Your refrence is incorect, Palpatine (I am asuming you mean from Star Wars) was not Chaotic. He planted seeds in the minds of his lesser peers and associates and then waited (some times for decades) for them to germinate into the Forest that was his Empire. A Chaotic Person can certainly Scheme, but they would sooner Rip a tree and transplant it then wait (possibly decades) for their seeds to grow. A better example would be Nero or Caligula form the Roman Empire. They were definetly Chaotic, and Rome was Definetly Lawful. It Shuold also be important to Note that those reigns were short ones. A Chaotic Emperor of a Lawful Nation is not Long for this World. The opposit could also be said. If you Had a Chotic Dragon Overlord in a Mostly Lawful Nation You could Start the Campaign with His/Her Recent Assassination and the Ensuing Power Struggle over who gets the Seat of Power. The Romans make a great Resourse for this since they did it on a fairly regular basis. And again any Dragon (good or bad) that had the Power to impose his/her will on the others would form an Empire if they wanted too badly enough.
darkkender 02-11-04, 12:04 PM	well if you want a great description of how a Dragon Empire might work go to your local bookstore and try to find the Dragonstar campaign setting by FFG it's a bit futuristic but you can probably port the concept and type of theme into a planet based setting maybe even going extraplanar and there you go.
Kain Darkwind 02-11-04, 12:40 PM	I'll second that. Dragonstar is the only series of books I have bought with absolutely NO intention of playing in the campaign setting....I just love the flavor. Its a great setting, and Fanatasy Flight Games has a lot of unique extra rules that add variety to the game, but aren't required if you want to leave them out. In fact, after reading all of them, I actually did want to play there.
Althalus 02-11-04, 12:58 PM	There have been a few cases down through the centuries were Dragons have had Empires. Such as in the Beggining, when the Creator race waged war aqainst their Draconic cousins. In most recent history, around 430 D.R. (I think), a Radiant Dragon gathered a small army of goodly dragons to help stop the growing numbers of evil dragons somewhere on Faerun.
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-13-04, 05:34 AM	I've been designing a dragon empire for roughly a year and a half now for use in ym campaign, and I easily decided that the only dragon fit to rule all the other was: THE PRISMATIC DRAGON After all, it is ALL the colors, and it can be any alignment. I wrote it up that he was severd by a group of haughty yet subservient (to him) force dragons. Below them is the different "houses" or groups of dragons, one for each color.
Naga_Slayer 02-13-04, 09:38 AM	I like how the Irda think in DL. The leader of their people is neither the strongest nor the smartest. He's just average. This makes sense to some degree. So, naturally, a Gem Dragon would be suited to rule since they are neutral and neither terribly powerful, yet terribly weak.
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-14-04, 06:37 AM	Originally posted by Althalus There have been a few cases down through the centuries were Dragons have had Empires. Such as in the Beggining, when the Creator race waged war aqainst their Draconic cousins. In most recent history, around 430 D.R. (I think), a Radiant Dragon gathered a small army of goodly dragons to help stop the growing numbers of evil dragons somewhere on Faerun. Where was this? Dragonlance, Greyhawk, FR, your own setting, your DM's setting, Ravenloft, Dark Sun or other? You seem to be talking about a specific place and history.
Kayli 02-14-04, 10:54 AM	Lankin the Mad Mage quote: Originally posted by Althalus There have been a few cases down through the centuries were Dragons have had Empires. Such as in the Beggining, when the Creator race waged war aqainst their Draconic cousins. In most recent history, around 430 D.R. (I think), a Radiant Dragon gathered a small army of goodly dragons to help stop the growing numbers of evil dragons somewhere on Faerun. Where was this? Dragonlance, Greyhawk, FR, your own setting, your DM's setting, Ravenloft, Dark Sun or other? You seem to be talking about a specific place and history. Too Things: 1: The Time Line is Presented in DR. DR stands for "Dale Reckoning." Only the Forgotten Realms Setting uses this timeline 2: Althalus Specifically Mentions Faerun. Faerun is Forgotten Realms Setting. The Setting was Pretty Self explanatory.
SpellBinder 02-16-04, 01:10 AM	Lankin, don't know how much you know of the Dark Sun setting, but in 2ndEd there were no true dragons as they're portrayed in the other game settings. Athasian dragons were powerful psychics and wizards, either human or half elf originally who had reached 20th level in both psionicist and defiler and then underwent the equivelant of a PrC to transform into a dragon (nothing like the dragon deciple PrC). In some ways they were much more powerful than the classic dragon, but never really enough to create an army of them. Considering things, they could be a small army unto themselves. If I remember right, there were 15 dragon kings (this includes the women), though one of them was replaced at one point. If you had the Black Water adventure, then there was a 16th dragon (technically not a dragon king, but advancing as a dragon anyway). By numbers alone, not enough for an army.
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-16-04, 05:24 AM	I was just being slightly peeved. I get annoyed when people automatically assume that anything posted on the boards is automatically set in FR. Some people think that FR is the only setting in existence, and it gets on my nerves sometimes. My apologies.
Kayli 02-16-04, 12:10 PM	As was Said earlier, any Dragon that was heads and feet more powerfull than any of the others could form a Dragon Empire, even if they were good, their force of will could compell meny good dragonss, and their force of Might could compell the Evil ones to join in. One could start with an Advanced Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (With a dozen or more Virtuall Age Catagory's) and Apply the Paragon Template to Him. This would Make him SigFig More Powerfull then any other Dragon Out there. Then du to his Mating Habit, He Has Several Wyrm (or Even Great Wyrm) Dragons as his Life Mates (as Lawfull Dragons are Wont to do) Right there he has a ready made army even if you don't include all those possible children. One could also give him the Feats Leadership, and Epic Leadership just to show that he has the Requisite Personallity to Attract followers to his cause and to give direction to others. Then when it is time he shows up with a few of his consorts and maybe a few of his kids to a Dragons lair and say's "This land is claimed in the name of the Empire of X, Swear your Fealty To Me your Lord or be Bannished forever!" All those bonus' to Diplomacy that the Paragon Template add will make it pretty easy for him to nogotiate other Dragons into joining his Empire. Conversely those Bonus' will also make it pretty easy for him to intimidate other dragons into joining with him as well. Don't forget the dozen dragons that are waiting outside in case of a fight. Poof! In no time he has a Dragon Empire with all other Dragons bowing before his majesty or they are Bannished from his kingdom, or killed if they resist. And there is nothing about this methodology that would require one to be evil. All this could be for the greater good of Dragon Society.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-16-04, 04:45 PM	A sufficiently motivated Dragon could breed an army of Half-Dragons and Draconic creatures, and use -them- as his legion. For exemple, a Red Dragon fosters a tribe of Orcs and Ogres for his legion: He breeds with the strongest and smartest of the tribe, fathering Half-Red Dragon Orc and Ogre children, who rise to the top of the Tribe's leadership. These half-dragon in turn breed with others of the Tribe, fathering Draconic Orcs and Ogres... Within a few generations, the Red Dragon has a legion of Draconic Orcs and Ogres at his command, with elite Half-Red Dragons to command it. He's litterally Fathered an Army. Alternatively, I always figured that Dragonkin made for perfect Servitors for the Dragons, especially if combined with the Half-Dragon template.
Kayli 02-16-04, 06:01 PM	Creating Hordes of Half dragons isn't very easy for Evil Dagons considering that none of them gain the Alternate Form Special Ability and must use magic to do so. Most Good Dragons on the other hand can do so as a special ability when they are wyrmlings :D Black Dragons cant polymorph until they are Very Old Blue not until Old Green not until old Red not until Mature Adult White not until Ancient But then for their army to be large enough to compell other dragons to submit it would have to be very large indeed, so we are talking about several generations before the army would be large enough though breeding half dragons. and even then the Children of Half Dragons are not neccissarily going to be full fledged half dragons themselves. After all most Sorcerers claim to be descended from dragons, but very few are half dragons. It would be better if he were truely ancient, With Full Blooded Dragon Children to Lead as Generals in his Army. The Concerted Action of Several Dragons Acting under one authority would be hard to resist even by other dragons. PS: I have a Half Dragon Charecter who is Planing on Gathering as meny half Dragons as she can under her Banner to Creat a mighty army "the likes of which the world has never seen before." So far I have the Leadership, Epic Leader ship and Dragon Cohort feat. I am waiting to get Epic Reputation so that the # of H-Dragons I can gather will be enough to make a sig-fig difference and not just be one or two liutenants.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-16-04, 07:39 PM	Originally posted by Kayli Creating Hordes of Half dragons isn't very easy for Evil Dagons considering that none of them gain the Alternate Form Special Ability and must use magic to do so. Most Good Dragons on the other hand can do so as a special ability when they are wyrmlings :D Black Dragons cant polymorph until they are Very Old Blue not until Old Green not until old Red not until Mature Adult White not until Ancient But then for their army to be large enough to compell other dragons to submit it would have to be very large indeed, so we are talking about several generations before the army would be large enough though breeding half dragons. and even then the Children of Half Dragons are not neccissarily going to be full fledged half dragons themselves. After all most Sorcerers claim to be descended from dragons, but very few are half dragons. It would be better if he were truely ancient, With Full Blooded Dragon Children to Lead as Generals in his Army. The Concerted Action of Several Dragons Acting under one authority would be hard to resist even by other dragons. Well, even a Mature Adult Red Dragon still has near 1000 years to execute it's plans. Considering the short lifespans of most humanoid races, that leaves it enough time to continue breeding it's army, which could now include full-blooded dragon children raised to serve as the Ruling dragon's army, lording over Half-Dragon officers (most of which bred by the full dragons themselves) who would lord over the Draconic Warriors, breeding with them...